So, I'm back. I am playing Vintage (well, trying to anyway), all over again. Bear with me though, I haven't really played any cards since Team Hadley was slugging it out in the Northeast while type 1 was becoming relevant. Seems like alot of the same cards are rocking the top tables, and a whole bunch of cool new tricks have taken root.

I don't really know anything about the format at all. I can find lists of what cards are good, but most of the old deep forum discussion about decks is gone. When I was getting out team secrecy had been brought up as an issue, but it seriously can't have made the forums as devoid as they seem to me. Anyway, I've got a few years catching up to do, but I've still got The Game in play, here is what I managed to put together for some warm up -- actually, this was kind of fun. I started playing with a buddy of mine and he played a welder and I had tinker in the grip, but I had forgotten to include Triskelion in the pile - so I fixed it. I spent a few nights remembering which spells were awesome, and which cards were there to make sure I didn't get murdered.

Anyway, throwing it back to 2004-2006 Vintage (non-exclusive), here is what I came up with:

Mana:
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
3 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy

Worker Bee's:
4 Force of Will
3 Goblin Welder
3 Duress
2 Misdirection

Get me my guns:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Brainstorm (R.I.P)
1 imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk

Ways to Win the Game:
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Duplicant
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar
1 Mindslaver
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

I haven't really put any work into the sideboard. Generally, I take a box of 60 awesome sideboard cards to a tournament, and play whichever 15 seem to make the most sense. Obviously, this is a strategy that I should work on. Alright, so let's get to the questions I want to know the answers to;

What is going on? How many decks are there, and what are they - from what I can tell the field seems very diverse, but what does it consist of? Are the new cards (painters servant, thoughseize, thorn of amthyst) relevant? How about the old ones that are new again (grindstone, strategic planning)? Seems as though this strategic planning card has made it into the tournament scene (top tables at champs), but - sure does seem pretty bad at first glance.

Brainstorm is gone huh? Wow.

Obviously the point of my deck is to trigger a broken turn as early as possible. Which, may have been a decent plan back in 05-06, but it seems like Ichirod was going pretty fast at the championships, and he wasn't really keeping up with Tendrils decks, or Slaver decks, from what I saw.

So how fast is the format? Catch me up - I want to play vintage again.

Old-school magic buddies...

and beer?

I'm fuckin' in there.

Hey,

I just wanted you guys to know that I am now aware fo the situation, and if anything comes our way, I will let you know.

Mykeatog.
General Manager - TrollandToad.com

Chemeng - I find it interesting that you can tell me what is wrong with my comparision - when I didn't even give it. You are a genius. I also would like to state that you are completely wrong in what you said about what the stock market is. As a matter of fact, why don't you read Tracerbullet's post, and that will give you some idea of EXACTLY how the stock market works.

Tracerbullet - Although what you are saying is true, I find it hard to not directly relate that to everything else that is every bought and sold, and wonder if because the ideas are true the conclusion may be false. I think a better conclusion would be - "the value of any card can't be defined over a period of time." What I am trying to get across is simple - there are times when cards have set values, but because magic = stocks, they flucuate, and can literally change over night. Most recently - Kataki, Loxodon Hierarch, and Life form the Loam.

cosineme - it isn't like that.

I deal at the pro events.

It is no secret that I am a dealer, and all I have to say about this conversation is...

Some dealers are assholes, some pizza delivery men are assholes, some magic players are assholes, some doctors are assholes.

Some dealers are nice.

There is an honor level in the dealer world where we seperate the true dealers from the people who aren't going to survive in the game. I personnally follow these tworules and NEVER feel guilty at all. 1. No buying cards/trading with a pre-teens unless their parents are there. 2. Anyone who disrespects me because I am dealer -- will be ripped off as hard as I can do it. I just get heated when someone disrespects the way I am living my life.

I could get into a whole speech about card value and the stock market  but there really isn't a point to it. The important things have already been said... the more you get out in the magic scene the more you know who the 'dealers' are. If you know who they are you make your own choice - you can be in control of getting involved in the trade or not. Everyone (including you, me, and dealer joe) should be able to enjoy this game regardless of how they choose to do it. You can turn down the trade, you can walk away.


How many Magic players do you know that play poker? Should we now discuss the moral fiber associated with taking money from your friends?

CrashTest - Looks like even a pro can learn a new trick every now and then.

I get very critical here - because if you don't stand behind what you are saying often the community can take it apart. I know what I am saying is fact and that concept is frustrating to me.

Unfortunately, if we have just now figured out this Mox Sapphire fault, it still can't help us AT ALL with the pending problem. Assume that people who are faking cards are doing so with real cards to fake - now assume they have one of these Sapphire's, so where does that leave us? Relying on a mark that is easier faked than a normal card. I would like to know if the 'dark beta' Sapphire has this mark. if anyone has one, could you enlighten me? If you are wondering what 'dark beta' is...

one time a guy walked into the printing factory and printed himself some rare sheets. Some people say he did more than just rares, and some say more than just beta, but what matters is - these cards are very hard to spot as fakes using any of the tests. They do not pass the natural vision test though - they have distintly different inking patterns. Almost impossible to show without two copies of the cards. There is still LOTS of debate as to if these are considered 'real' or not. I thought they were real, until Wizards and I worked together at Nationals 2004 to catch some guy peddling it at the event. Wizards took the cards from the guy - he wasn't pissed because he knew that they were dark beta and didn't pay alot for them.

heh, seems like within 5 years every card is going to be questionable.

Family Guy. Viva La Bam. Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Daria. Boy Meets World. Monday Night Raw. TNA impact!

Alternate fourth held under a BLACK LIGHT is a dead giveaway - then overtime you can just tell. The ring on the back on the cards is a light purple, which is different enough from a normal card - oh and they have a 'wax' coating that makes them look kinda like 5th edition cards, that is how I spot them in people's binders; I just look for 5th edition lightning bolts.

Summer (I've heard it reffered to as many things but never 'edgar' Mr. Fantasy - where are you from? Any idea as to the origin of that name?) is something else entirely. Imagine an update to revised that did what unlimited did for beta - just reprinting the same shit. That is what summer was going to be revised with a fixed serendib, well heh - then they realized that summer was a dumb idea since 4th was far enough along in construction - so they canned the whole thing, or like - most of the whole thing, accept for a few delicious cases of summery goodness.  These are VERY easy to distinquish from normal revised cards, as there is a year on the bottom of the card (where it is supposed to be, and would be in all future magic releases).

Show them to me.

I get paid to verify cards.

A scan can tell you everything that you could ever want to know -- I really don't know how this continues to be an issue. I also hate to do this but - most of the things suggested in the first post are completely looney.

"A lot of unlimited cards have a "printing" line through the card, usually two of them going across the width horizontally. Often these can only be seen when direct light is used to point it out, but it looks almost as though a cookie cutter was used to create a mark. The mark isn't damaging, just on the surface. Most likely, if an Unlimited card has this, it is real because these came from some sort of defect in the printing system Wizards used. "

... Some of them have ONE line. The line is VERY noticeable and doesn't really affect the value much. If you want me to take a Ravnica card and give it the same line let me know, I can do it with a book.

"2.) I'm not sure which other Alpha cards may have this, but I've noticed a lot of Alpha Mox Sapphires have a white blemish on the lower right side, which can almost look like a rip at a long distance, but it's just a blemish. If anyone knows of other Alpha cards with this characteristic as well, mention it. "

Nope. This is just a complete lie. A blemish? A rip? I am not trying to get down on this guy as much as I am trying to not lower the average intelligence of the community.

"Some things that look sketchy at first but do not necessarily mean anything: 1.) If you look at the Unlimited Moxes, the Mox name, Artist name, and "Mono Artifact" text often look very light, or even slightly less in focus then the main text body. This is because of the font colors used, so it is natural to get this lighter text on most Unlimited artifacts. It can happen with beta too, but Beta is generally darker. "

I have seen these lighter moxes, but they aren't very common - 75% of the time a typographical alteration on a card is a red flare. Or at least - some thing that SHOULD be considered sketchy.

"2.) Some Beta cards can be cut to look like Alpha, but unless it is a very good cut, you can probably tell right away. It won't mean the card is fake, just altered. "

This is not ONLY irrelevant, but also useless. Alpha cards were inserted in beta packs to get rid of the excess cards - none of this crazy stuff.

"3.) The bend test- This test is often controversial. I have seen it damage real cards when done too many times or with excessive force. A lot of good fakes won't fail this test anyway, and the ones that do, you can usually tell are fake just by feeling them or looking closely. Becareful in bend testing unlimited cards, since you may damage them for no reason. Beta fakes are the ones to be rebacked, so only bend test if you really need to do it and everything else has failed."

The bend test is all the common magic player has. Though I am also against using it (because over (extended) time it will damage cards), I certainly don't think of it as the enemy. If you bend test an unlimited card, and it gets a crease -- there is a VERY small chance that it is because it got tested too many times. What makes a beta card ANY more likely to get rebacked than an unlimited card? Are you incinuating that someone godo enough at rebacking beta cards, wouldn't do it to an unlimited card? And then - wouldn't you want to use the bend test right away to immediately expose the fake?

I have a hard time getting behind any conversation on this topic because it really doesn't bode well for the average vintage player. These conversations always strike me as "I buy things that I don't know are real - but it's okay, I'll worry about it later". I understand what this thread is trying to do but it will need a little more help in getting there.

Side note - if you are still hung up on telling the difference between the unlimited cards and the revised ones... there is a black bar (bevel?) between the white border and the inner border on unlimited cards. It isn't there on revised cards. Hold two up together - and you will never mistake one for another again. Why don't you try to crack alternate 4rth?

Is this really what it has come to?

TMD is impressive.

Hey Guys,
Though I likely won't be able to make it...

my 'presents' will be felt.

-T.O.G.

you have to garuntee some crazy prize support or you will lose lots of attandee's. Put your balls out there a little and do something like "No matter what Lotus, Mox, Mox, Mox." At least this way there is still plenty of reason for people to come out. If you onyl garuntee 1 - 2 moxes, then you will only get 20 - 35 people.

None of this is true. This isn't a flame, just a 45 hour a week pro-magic dealer letting you all know that the sky isn't falling. A microscope is helpful, but there are other tricks, and I've NEVER EVER heard of this crazy shit about chemical testing. If you are in vintage then your cards are worth enough money to get a friend who knows the ins-and-outs of power and faking.

There are alot of factors not being watched for here...

How fake is it? This question is NOT stupid. Is it absolutely fake? Is it from the 'dark beta' printing? Being that you said it didn't pass the bend test - he is obviously going to be PISSED that there is a giant fucking crease in his card. Or, is the crease very faint? If so, that DOES NOT mean it failed the bend test. I know this might seem a little silly - but do you have, or can you get me a scan of it? I _know_ real vs. fake.

Did he send it to you tracked? If not - he can't win. A little known fact about ebay is if the seller can't prove they sent it to you - then you can say they didn't. Paypal is built for the buyer. If it was tracked - and you send it back to him, he has no logical (though he does have many ethical) reason to give you anything. He can prove to paypal and ebay that he sent it to you and that you received it, he can also then tell you to go fuck yourself. Assuming he knew it was fake when he sold it - then he will tell you to go to hell.

So what should you do?

The team of ebay + Paypal will save you. Tell them there is a dispute, and they will get involved to make sure you don't get fucked. If things are getting ugly, then tell paypal it is a fake, as stated, they refund you and he loses. If he is being honest, and people with 150 positive and 0 negative ARE USUALLY, then he will refund you and everything will be fine. (For those of you who don't know - 'the law' doesn't really give a shit about ebay transactions so don't waste your time).

If you are going to sell it on ebay use these rules...

1. Sell it card by card, you just get more that way.
2. Sell it in the next two weeks - every dealer in the world knows this is Christmas posting season.

I do this 40 hours a week + sometimes 48 hours a weekend.

First of all --

Not having a girlfriend doesn't make anything better.

Second of all, a great idea that will work nowadays, go to japan and buy all this shit. Buy more than you can use, buy so much that you can have all of what you want, and have more than twice that much to sell. Then - sell the rest of it to people like you who didn't go to japan and buy it.

You can make lots and lots and lots fo money this way. Enough to pay for your whole trip, etc.

Knowing everything I have EVER known about restrictions/bannings there is really only one thing to expect on december first....

Goodbye Goblin Lackey (and/or Goblin Ringleader).

After the Legacy championships, with 3 months of solid testing and teching... Goblin lackey still fucked up the GP. Isn't that what matters?

Am I wrong to say that the format is Lackey vs. Anti-Lackey? With all decks ignoring this idea just getting destroyed. Everyone thought that Reset was going to be a big deal, but it wasn't (rinse-wash-repeat for Time Vault). The format may be untested enough that it isn't fair to put Lackey the side, but there is always room for unbanning if it is proved that he can be stopped. Unfortunately, this hasn't been proved yet.

1-1-1.

Whenever you are ready Kerzner.

Though the process that makes these cards is fairly common practice now, when these originally came out about 2 years ago, the store in Maryland that was distributing them lost their 'premier store' status, and all higher level events (GPT's, and JSS's), because they aren't more than 20% different they are illegal. The reason that gamingetc tokens are legal because they are different enough from Magic cards that a clear difference can be seen. I expect that the website that is selling that stuff will recieve some sort of cease and desist order now that the boys at Wizards are on top of it.

New England has almost completed it's recovery from the last Tog sighting.

Almost.

Although this may not have been the best place to post this piece of news, Steve is speaking for the world. Sure, here at TYPE 1 THE WEBSITE we may not all agree, but go take a look at ebay and you will see...

what happened to Mana Drain?

what's happening to Time Vault?

So as the vintage community we are used to being ahead of legacy in the 'cool formats' list, but we aren't anymore. We should learn to cope for now.

Being that I spend every moment of my professional life living the sales of cards in this game...

It's Legacy.

Legacy is killing Vintage. I can't sell a mox anymore roughly no matter what - but I can sell a Survival of the Fittest for whatever price tag I want. There are 3 stores around where I live, and all three used to run Vintage on Sunday, now they all run Sanctioned Legacy.

i've let this go on long enough ---

They are making russian boxes for American distribution.

Sorry to shit on all of your dreams.

Let me step in here...

There are three kinds of cards with crimps.

1. A crimp along the top or bottom (Very Common). A card like this that would usually suck (like this card) is worth about 2.00 bucks. Cards that don't suck with crimp are usually worth 4-5 dollars more than there non-crimped friends.

2. A Beta Crimped card. (Rare) A Beta crimped card fetches a premium in the misprint crowd.

3. A Sideways crimped card. (Extremely Rare) I've only seen two of these, and I got 'my asking price' on both of them. These are worth a bunch.

Hope it helped.

Did we all miss the part of the story where we find out that Ray is a super-pimp?

I hope that Bleiwess plays and wins. That would be awesome.

Yep.

Sorry guys, I love it.

I don't understand hwo this is a rehash of kicker. (Entwine was).

This feels like - an ability missing from invasion, but it isn't kicker. It is "If you play this card as though it were a gold card, you get a bonus effect". Is every card that ever has a bonus on it going to be compared straight up with kicker?

AND....

isn't kicker awesome?