(I would've put this in the Vintage Forum, but unfortunately I can't make topics there. So I apologize if this is out of place.)

It's been a while since Mike Long was caught with that Cadaverous Bloom in his lap.

That said, his laughable attempts at cheating there and thereafter proved highly unnecessary, as he played what was at the time, one of the most powerful combo decks in the format, Prosperous Bloom. It was a deck that took him to US Nationals, and Pro Tour Paris. Unfortunately, when Urza's Saga came into being, and the 6th edition rules amended the zero-life loophole, Prosperous Bloom has long gone by the wayside.

So years have gone by, and here we are with new, powerful cards from Type 2, such as Orim's Chant to replace the old staple Abeyance, Diabolic Tutor, which isn't restricted anywhere, or Chrome Mox to aid in mana acceleration. These are just a few of the cards that could help a Prosperous Bloom deck.

Now the last time I knew cards in a block relatively well was in the Invasion block, so call me a grampa, and help me out with some knowledge I don't have.

Anyways, the idea is this: could Prosperous Bloom be made competitive again in Vintage or Legacy, with the advent of these new Type 2 cards? What kind of tweaks would need to be made to it, what kind of protection would it have to have now, and methods to keep the chain from being interrupted?

And as a side note, something else to stimulate discussion, my top five fastest deck archetypes ever designed:

5. Red Sligh

Reason: Between one and two to cast creatures, and one and two to cast direct damage, when Red Sligh came on the scene, it didn't take more than four, maybe five turns to blitzkrieg the opponent down to nothing with a very fast and painful weenie assault, supported by Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightnings, and Shocks. Even today, years after the archetype was designed, with a few tweaks here and there, Sligh remains one of the most popularly played decks in Vintage and Legacy, and one of the fastest ways to die. Not mention one of only two decks on this list still playable at all in any type of DCI sanctioned tounrmanent.

4. Tinker

Reason: Not too many people talk about Tinker much anymore, I guess it's heyday was overshadowed by Academy, even though they were two completely different deck archetypes. A Tinker deck, more often than not, could whip out a Masticore, or even worse, a Phyrexian Processor on the first turn, before the opponent could even lay a land. The regularity of this kind of fetch ability was the very definition of broken, and although it may very well have been overshadowed by Academy, Tinker was ridiculously fast in its own right.

3. Hatred.

Reason: Black, especially black weenie, has always been fast. Ever since the first Dark Ritual was printed, black had a natural advantage of speed over other decks. When Exodus came out though, black weenie had the equivalent of two tons of pure Nitrous dumped in it's engine. With cards like Culling The Weak, and more importantly, the key card Hatred, people began finding themselves on the recieving end of a 21/1 attacking creature on the third or fourth turn. With the advent of Urza's Saga shortly afterwards, particularly Priest of Gix, that kill time was quickly promoted to the second turn. The modern incarnation of Hatred hasn't changed much since the days of Saga and Exodus, and no cards to my knowledge have ever been banned or restricted from the deck. A Hatred deck today would probably only cost about 100 dollars to put together, and that only because of Lake of the Dead if you so chose to include them. If not, I would say a playable Hatred shouldn't cost more than 30 bucks.

2. Tolarian Academy.

Reason: One pro tournament. That's as long as this deck archetype was allowed to exist. In current days the Academy has taken on an almost mythical stature, and as someone who was there to see Wizards practically panic and chop it into pieces, that stature is well deserved. No less than seven key cards were banned from Standard and restricted in all other formats because of this deck. The regularity with which Academy could fire it's engine and launch a 500 card Stroke of Genius first turn was scary. And if it didn't first turn, it almost certainly would second. This deck was so fast and so reliable, that players eventually reached a point where one person playing Academy would look at his opponent, and say he could fire the engine that turn, and his opponent would simply concede. Academy vs. Academy came down to nothing but who won the coin toss twice. Thankfully though, this deck has been banned and errated beyond all possible repair.

1. Channel-Fireball.

Reason: First turn, Fireball for twenty, play again? Next game, first turn, Fireball for twenty, play again? This was a combo that made players want to take a handgrenade to their opponent's deck. It's the most infamous use the power nine have ever seen. It went off first turn more often than even Academy did. I don't think I've seen this deck archetype even talked about in years and years. It's nigh impossible to play anymore, since Channel, and all of the power nine have since been restricted, and obviously the power nine are far too expensive to just buy on a whim. Still though, Channel-Fireball holds a much hated place in some of the oldest players's hearts. 

Again, lemme hear some thoughts, opinions, discussions on both topics in this thread. Get those juices flowing!

Ah, I see. I have been away then. 

Like I said, I quit playing around Judgement, so I should apologize in advance for little mistakes like this.

Although I was under the impression that you could Stifle a Standstill, casue triggered abilities like that only go on the stack once. But I can be wrong, I'm no guru.

Well, moving back to what I DO know about, and staying away from what I don't for the moment, and being this is a newbie thread, I figure this belongs as well here as anywhere. I know this isn't Type 2 related really, but it doesn't a whole new thread for it.

The advantages of letting your oponnent know what's in your hand.

Ah yes, the violation of Magic Dogma, you're not supposed to sit there and go "Look what's in my hand!" unless you're winning by just a stupid margin. This actually comes from a principle I learned when I was playing chess for a while, which is "The threat is stronger than the execution."

In chess it means the possibility/threat of taking a piece, or making an attack, is actually more effective than actually doing so. So how does this apply to magic? Take Seal of Cleansing for example. Me personally, unless playing against a green deck with Tranquility in it, I would rather have one Seal of Cleansing on the board, rather than one Disenchant in my hand. The reason is this: Your opponent sees the Seal in play, and knows any artifact or enchantment he casts is going to get destroyed, so instead of playing that Opalescence in his hand, he sits there and holds it back, waiting for a way to deal with the Seal.

The advantage being this, the more turns your opponent takes to do something, the more turns you have to make your own play.

Playing Blue/White Control for instance, laying a Seal of Cleansing on the board keeps the opponent from playing artifacts or enchantments until he was a way to get rid of the Seal. And anything he can view as a viable threat, so can you, so he's not gonna trick anyone out by playing Ornithopter. He knows that any potential artifact or enchantment threat he does play, is going to get immediately destroyed. So he waits, and waits, and waits. Meanwhile, you're drawing card, after card, after card, because he's not playing anything you readily have to deal with, so when he does finally have a way to get rid of Seal, by then he's waited so long, you've got another way to handle whatever he casts.

Now Magic is not Chess, and the disadvantage to this is that your opponent knows what you have in play, and can plan around it, versus the surprise assault of an instant Disenchant. It's my personaly preference to use Seal of Cleansing, usually in combination with Disenchant.

The principle of the threat being stronger than the execution is best shown by Standstill, and the players who still don't play anything because they're afraid of triggering it. Every turn that goes by that you don't trigger Standstill, is one card more they draw on top of Standstill. Or Daring Apprentice, which is a guaranteed counterspell, right there, staring your opponent in the face going "Play something and see what happens!"

That leads back to letting your opponent know what's in your hand. This mostly a blue tactic, but it could be applied VERY selectively to other colors.

Let's set up an imaginary game, a mono blue control deck, versus say, Replenish splashing black. (I know, humor me. )

Say Replenish Duressed the blue deck in the very beginning of the game, and saw a counterspell in that hand. And now we're in the late game, Replenish has it's whole combo ready to go, but there's a problem. The guy playing Replenish knows there is at least one counterspell in his opponent's hand, he hasn't seen that one counter played since he Duressed and saw it. It may be the only one, but any player who's had experience with blue can tell you, all it takes is one counterspell entered in just the right point of a combo's execution to shut the entire thing down for several turns, and even spell doom for the opponent. In this instance it would be countering the Replenish.

So you know you've only got one Replenish in your hand, and every turn you wait, is one more turn he could possibly draw another counter. And you could try to play other cards to bait that Counterspell out of his hand, but what if he can deal with them with say, bounce cards, or what if they're not a threat at all?

The same advantages and disadvantages apply with this tactic as with using Seal, except that you can use this tactic to actually bait the card you want Countered and in the graveyard out of his hand. It's pretty much drawing another counter, and waiting for him to bait you again. When he does, go ahead and play that Counterspell he knows you've had since the beginning of the game, and more likely than not, he'll figure "well, now's as secure a time as I'm likely to get." and casts his Replenish, or whatever you've been waiting to counter, and Voila! Countered Spell.

The Top 5 Counterspells in Magic:

5. Rewind.

Reason: Because you don't necessarily have to untap islands with it. You can untap that Forsaken City, or those Stalking Stones you attacked with a turn earlier and need to block with this turn, or that Tolarian Academy. Not to mention free counters leave you with mana to cast other stuff, like draw power at the end of the turn, or other counterspells.

4. Force Spike.

Reason: I think Force Spike is undervalued by too many people. It's a first-turn counter, and it's cheap, so you don't have to waste a Force of Will and another card to stop that first turn Dark Ritual that would otherwise spell immediate death for your deck. It's just as good late game as well, since a lot of players don't expect to see Force Spike lomped in a deck with Arcane Denial, and Force of Will, so you can play down to one mana available, and they'll tap out, believing they can cast with impunity. Force Spike is definitely an out-of-left-field that can save you more often than not.

3. Arcane Denial.

Reason: Card advantage, card advantage, and oh yeah, card advantage. Arcane Denial is the only cantrip counterspell there is, or at least that's worth playing with. There is some debate that the card advantage it allows your opponent makes it more damaging to you than helpful, but experience has shown me, personally, otherwise. Card advantage almost always helps a blue deck more than the opponent. And if you play with Sapphire Medallion, well then it becomes a Force Spike, except without a way for the opponent to negate it. It costs the same as a Counterspell, and you draw a card on top of it. Can't get too much better than that.

2. Force of Will.

Reason: Alternate casting cost. Everyone knows Force of Will, it's the most infamous counter blue ever produced, and any blue deck worth its salt runs four of them. Force of Will's pay 1 life and remove a blue card from the game casting cost has saved many players in it's time, from being able to be cast on the first turn, to being able to be cast when tapped completely out. Having a tapped out blue deck be a safe haven for casting spells has LONG since gone by the wayside, as opponents never know if there's a Force waiting to take a piece of whatever they cast. The "invisible counter", you never quite know when it's there, but if it is, it can almost always be cast.

1. Counterspell.

Reason: Ah yes, oldie but a goodie. Short, simple, no drawbacks or potential drawbacks, and cheap. You don't lose a life, it's only two to cast, there's no way to negate it, and it doesn't give anything to your opponent. Simple, as usual, is best.


I'm sure I'm gonna fall under fire for putting things like Rewind and Force Spike up there, in place of Mana Drain. What have I been smoking? How dare I leave out Mana Drain!

The simple answer is: There wasn't enough room. Had it been top six, Mana Drain would've made it, but as it is, I withheld it for two reasons: First and most poertinent is the unfortunate potential for mana burn. If all you have is three Mana Drains, and a bunch of land, or nothing else at all, what are you supposed to use that extra three or four mana on? That's unavoidable loss of life. The second is that Mana Drain is EXTREMELY hard to obtain, it was only printed in Legends, and last I checked, it sold for about $40 apiece. I tried to use counters that most Friday Night Magic players can realistically obtain, (I know I fail with Force of Will, but c'mon, how could I not put Force of Will up there?) and most players just don't have that kind of money to put towards a counter, especially one that can ONLY be used in Type 1.

So, thoughts, suggestions, opinions, posts to say I'm full of crap, all are welcome. I'm trying to stimulate discussion here. 

I'm a fairly old player, not from the way back days of Channel-Fireball and $10 Lotuses, but I started playing right around the time of Academy. I played for a while, all the way up to Judgement, and even made it to Regionals and States once each. This by no means makes me an expert, it's just supposed to give some informatin about me. My name's Wolf, and I just recently started playing again online and was directed here by another member.

Now, that out of the way, the new generation of Type 2 cards are having a big impact on the scene of magic in all formats. I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day, and he was lamenting the new "super powers" called the Darksteel artiifacts, with the Indestructible ability.

Why am I bothering to talk about Type 2 cards in a Vintage forum you ask? Because the new generation of cards are so powerful, it's almost going to be impossible to not see them incorporated into Type decks, making them even more powerful. Already we're seeing cards like Darksteel Colossus and Chrome Mox being used in decks like Red Sligh Old Blue Control. It's somewhat of a flawed perception that because a card, or a set is Type 2, there's no way it can ever measure up to the power of the older cards used in Type 1, and thus, it's commonly assumed that Type 2 cards won't be used in Type 1. This is a flawed perception, and one any good player can't afford to ignore.

So, moving on, we'll start with Darksteel Colossus, arguably the biggest threat of the Darksteel Cards. Now, for anyone who doesn't know, Indestructible says this: Destroy Effects and Lethal Damage don't destroy this card.

What this means is Colossus is immune to Urza's Rage, lethal combat damage, Disenchant, Obliterate, Wrath of God, all of the way that have been there to deal with creatures before. But before anyone keels over and dies, remember, there are ways to deal with him.

1. Counterspell
2. Take Control of Him
3. Diabolic Edict will kill him, because it's not damage, and it doesn't say destroy.
4. Remove him from the game
5. Tap him
6. Return him to his owner's hand
7. Play Pacify on him
8. Reduce his toughness to zero, via Phyrexian Plaguelord, or the like. It's also not damage or a destroy effect.
9. Use Maze of Ith, or Fog, or even Spore Frog.

So as you can see, there are at least 9 ways to deal with Colossus, from Blue, White, Green, and Black. The fact that he can't be destroyed doesn't mean he can't be killed. So, if Darksteel hits the board, now you know what you can do about him. And several of those methods can be used on any Darksteel card played. In Type 1, these methods are a lot more viable to use than in Type 2.

(On a side note, while I remember, Stifle alone cannot be used to counter Standstill. Because Standstill says "when you play a spell" which is, when you declare a spell and spend mana on it, Standstill immediately fires off before whatever you cast has a chance to resolve. But there is good news, you can play another spell first, and then in response to Standstill, Stifle it's ability.)

That's it for now, I'd write more, but I have to be going. If this topic needs to be moved, then no hard feelings, I'll understand.