Red wouldnt be a bad idea for the deck. We could side in Blood Moon effects and a Swamp post-board, but seems kinda slow.

But running Red or not, I doubt will affect the Stax MU because the mana base in this deck is already rock solid. It probably doesnt need any other colors besides Blue until it combos off. Of course, we dont need EtW or REB.

With the rise of Goblins and Moon Effects, how should we addressed this?

Add a Fire // Ice Maindeck? Scrollable and takes care of Magus and other randomness. BEB? I might even put 3 Blood Moons in the SB myself to throw players off. It's not hard, but you really need to adjust the mana base for it.

Since I'm considering Red, should I put a number of Clasms in the SB like Shay? They deal with Goblins and such.

In a Goblin and Stax heavy meta, should I run Goyfs? I'm not a fan of Tog to be honest, but I'm considering a set of them over Dryads for that meta.


@hvndr3d y34r h3x: To be honest, I have always doubted that DSC would ever be good in GAT, but I may be wrong here considering the fact that GAT and EtW Gifts run a plethora of disruption. However, I have always thought that Meloku would be awesome in GAT... more so than EtW because it's a strong mid-late game card and it requires almost no set-up.

I think the reason why GAT never ran Lotus Petals in the first place was because it's a temporary mana source. Cut if for a Land or something.

As for power, you need it. You always want to Scroll off a Mox and a land first turn or an opening Drayd. Soo... cut the Lotus Petal for a Sol Ring. Sure, it's not a Mox, but it's better than Lotus Petal.

Other than that, the deck looks fine.

I wanted to start a discussion on the optimal GAT build for awhile. Here are some things to start some discussion;

-Should a 4th color be ran? If so, then what is the purpose of that 4th color?

-2nd win condition? Should it be EtW, Meloku, DSC/Tinker, Tog, or Goyf?

-Should GAT run Mana Drains? What about Thoughtseize, Mis-Ds, and such?

-Optimal Sideboard?

-MD Cunning Wish or Berserk, or none of the above?

-Faster approach or slower approach?


Discuss something...

The deck looks awesome. I especially think that Ponder is the missing card Grim Long needed for stability. Ponder finds you bombs, and if you chain them it can find you your win conditions as well!

I also goldfished this bad boy on mws not too long ago, and let me say this deck is consistent. I've been pulling 1-2 turn wins with 2 disruption cards backed up.

So how should I board against Flash, then?

Personally, here's how I would board..


GAT:

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Mana Drain

+2 REB/Pyro


Stax:

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mis-D
-2 REB/Pyro
-4 Duress

+1 Ancient Grudge (Personally, I'd go for Gorilla Shaman in this slot)
+1 Rack and Ruin
+1 Rebuild
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Leyline of the Void


Ichorid:

-2 Mana Drain
-2 REB/Pyro
-1 LoA
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Mis-D
-1 Vampiric Tutor


+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroclasm


Flash:

-2 Mana Drain
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 LoA

+4 Leyline
+2 REB/Pyro


Bomberman:

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mis-D
-1 Duress
-1 Mox Jet

+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Pithing Needle


Those might be somewhat flawed though. If anybody has a better idea how to board against Bomberman, please tell me now or reply to my post.

Soo... let's see... I've been making these changes late, and it seemed to have worked.

-1 Meloku

+1 Burning Wish
+1 Recoup

Recoup is awesome. It recurs Duress to protect your bomb, it recurs Scroll, Regrowth itself, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Time Walk and stuff.

Why run this over Regrowth?

To make Gifts more lethel when you have 7 mana on the board. It's an immediate win if you can muster up 7 mana for this.

As for Burning Wish, it's just Tendrils when you want it to be and something else at other times. Reasoning for this is that I never really liked Tendrils unless I'm comboing off, and while I'm comboing off, I resolved Will and the extra mana spent for Wish is squat to me. Burning Wish having a purpose outside of Tendrils is awesome.

Like I ran run some removal like Perish or Chainer's Edict, Clasms, a bomb or just a draw spell like Deep Anal, and other goodness.

Soo... Can we all agree that Feist's best album is obviously "Let it Die?"

If so, then I must say, Mushaboom is probably one of the best things I have ever listened to.

I'm listening to Michelle Branch right now. God, it's soo classic.

I just want some discussion on this so-called, "Best deck in the format" going. I'm really interested in this deck, but havent invested a lot of time into playing this deck. Of course, it is always nice to hear from the community.


Empty Gifts

4 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
2 island
1 library of Alexandria
4 gush
4 merchant scroll
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 duress
2 mana drain
1 misdirection
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 ancestral recall
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoths will
1 mystical tutor
1 fastbond
1 regrowth
1 gifts ungiven
1 fire/ice
1 empty the warrens
1 meloku the clouded mirror
1 tinker
1 darksteel colossus
1 echoing truth
1 time walk

Sideboard

2 pyrocalsm
2 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
1 ancient grudge
1 rebuild
1 rack and ruin
2 trickbind
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast


TK and ICBM made top finishes with this deck, and placing 3 members of ICBM in the Top 8 at SCG Indy. It also has many similarities to GAT. It doesnt run Dryads and Togs, but instead EtW, Meloku, Tinker/DSC, and Gifts Ungiven (which comboes with the win conditions well).

Congratz Doug!

This is Anti~American4621 from MTG the Source.

I've been playing GAT in T1 too, with Disrupt also, only, I cut a Drain and 2 Opts for 3 Disrupts. They are just amazing. I'm glad you won with them, and truly displayed it's insanity!

Grim Long cant play Duress and Wheel of Fortune on the same turn, and it's still works with the deck somehow.

I know many rejected the idea. I personally think that Duresses are a great card in this deck, but I havent tested it much. Because this deck wants to bait it's lock components, why not just Duress away the counter and just lay down the lock component? I mean, it's better than baiting, since you also have access to information.

Well... I actually think this deck can have a great Flash and GAT match-up. Some tweaks have to be made, and it'll be all good. Demars always played Slaver, and he knows that it is a true metagame deck. He always adapts it.

Anyways, as for some changes to be made.

-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Duplicant
-1 Sundering Titan


+1 Triskelion
+1 Platinum Angel
+3 Magus of the Moon


I left Misdirections in because I think it's crucial that Magus of the Moon and friends resolve. I think Platinum Angel is awesome personally. It breaks stalemates and just flies and wins. Versus Flash, it's promising. It may be a concern against GAT though, so I may leave Duplicant in.

Blood Moon is an insanely strong card right now in the current metagame. May said that Slaver is dead. I can only think of the Leylines in the Sideboard, but the deck is still very strong on it's own. It doesnt always need Welder to win, and bouncing the Leyline can easily be done. If not against decks with Leyline, it is still very strong against GAT.

With all the Staxless Stax and GAT running around, I see the rise of Slaver again. I may be wrong, so give me reasons to see why it may be dead now.


// Lands 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island


// Creatures 6
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan


// Spells 30
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mindslaver
2 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection


// Sideboard 15
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Fire // Ice
3 Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Singularity
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast


I know Demars made a top finish with Slaver, so tell me what you guys think.

It's hard to run Negators when the whole format is so creature oriented. If I were to run straight up Sui Black, it'd be some old lists from way back... then again, Ichorid may be better than standard Sui Black.

here's a deck designed to beat GAT, and Hulk... but not Stax.


// Mana 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Ritual
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Badlands
5 Swamp


// Creatures 13
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade


// Spells 22
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dystopia
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Unmask

 
In short, I think the card you're lacking against GAT is Dystopia.

All this talk about a more aggressive list. I made one just now, and I think it's pretty damn good.


// Lands 26
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp


// Creatures 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter


// Spells 19
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Powder Keg

I'm thinking of Unmask in the deck so I can pitch something to Unmask, like dead Leylines and Rituals.


Agreed.


I didnt agree with 3 Wastelands and 1 Strip Mine in Fish and SS, but I learned why when playing them.

Board Control, and Silver Bullets. If I were to play Blue instead, I might build an SS with more board control.


Jotun Grunt is a threat as well as utility. With the rise of Goyfs, I think Grunts can bash them down in the red zone.


I should test Yilix Jailers. I really should be more open minded.


Thank you, I really need as many opinions as possible.

It's nice to make the deck different. Who knows? Mixing things up can really cause your opponent to make play mistakes against you. 


Mind Twist is great midgame. When decks are recovering from Disruption being thrown at them, it's nice to have Mind Twist be there for you to make them try and recover again. Besides, I dont think I really have a hand when playing this deck, so getting a Mind Twist thrown back at me isnt much of a problem.


Stax also has a decent game against Flash and GAT. It'll probably make Leyline tons better to play. I wasnt sold on it very much either, and would much rather favor MDed Extirpates, but after playing them, I felt that I needed a strong weapon against Flash and Ichorid.


I'm testing 2 Exalted Angels in the board right now actually. I might cut an Angel for Tombstalker though. I would like other options for this slot though. Serra Avenger might work, since you have no intentions for dropping her down early.

I can squeeze in another Swords I guess. But Necro is questioned here. This deck plays like pseudo-Fish. I tend to disrupt my opponent first, them play things like Grunt and such and start beating down. I wouldnt call this Sui Black anymore, probably an evolution from Nabster. 


True. Cutting it for more copies of Swords to Plowshares give this deck a better edge against creature decks.

I was thinking of adding in Kataki actually. I might run EE instead, since it answers so much. It might take the place of a copy of Swords to Plowshares.

This is also true. I cant disagree with you on cutting a copy of Hippie. I never really considered it until now.

It's true I do need a bomb to make Silver Bullets effective. Personally, I Tutor for a Grunt when the opponent is under exhaust and try to beat him down. I play this deck differently from Sui, so I should start changing the name of the Thread. I think a better bomb than Necro would be Mind Twist.

My changes are

-1 Null Rod
-1 Dystopia
-1 Hypnotic Specter

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Mind Twist

I dont intend on cutting Imperial Seal, but who knows?

I should read that article. I might make my mind up about fetchlands after reading it. I thought fetching helps reduce the amount of lands I draw, so I can make better topdecks.

I'll try the 4th Wasteland I guess, but that might be Crucible of Worlds instead. I'm still deciding.

I dont think Consultation would work in this deck, because everything I tutor for is usually a 1-of. I might try it though.

Purple Hat made me want to rethink about Chains of Mephistopheles. Aven Mindcensor is probably a great card to have in this deck, next to Vindicate. I could also put a token Nether Void in here as a Tutor target and turn this deck into a lock deck, but that card may be put into the Sideboard... of course, it beats GAT too.


As for the Fetchlands issue, I dont think it matters really, but with White added in, I think fetchlands should be put back in. With the addition of White, I think a swap for Jotun Grunt over Shade would be awesome...


// Sympathy for the Devil
// Mana 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp


// Creatures 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 22
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dystopia
1 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void


// Sideboard 15
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nether Void
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Seal of Cleansing/Serenity
1 Engineered Plague
1 Honor the Fallen
3 Vindicate
3 Dystopia
2 Umezawa's Jitte


I might put a couple Chains in there for the GAT match-up, but of course, it might be hard because of the room I need to squeeze in. I dont have Therapies in here because I dont think I can afford sacrificing any creatures.

Having White in here gives us more Silver Bullets, like Vindicate. Honor the Fallen is awesome against Ichorid, and Swords to Plowshares is awesome as well. I might even add more White cards in like Seal of Cleansing if someone has an idea.

Anyways, I am very proud of the list, and cutting a Yawgmoth's Will for a Swords to Plowshare is probably my favorite move here.

How so? I've played Red Deck Wins and Vial Goblins for a long time, and the deck thinning from 8 Fetchlands were awesome. I also played White Weenie with Land Tax casually for awhile, and the deck thinning from that was awesome.

Not really. Every thing Bob flips over is 1-2. When Dystopia hits the board, you should be swinging anyways, so the life loss is irreverent. Besides, you should win for like 1-2 turns after it hits anyways.


I dont really see the 4th Wasteland to be in this deck actually. I already have Tutors which grab Wasteland.


I run 1-ofs too.... Besides, there's really no such thing as card advantage in Sui, so it really doesnt matter, at the least, it is card quality.


Sarcomancy seems weak. I dont just want beatz, I want to win and disrupt the opponent at the same time. This deck does a great job at that.
Maybe its just me but I would go with Cabal Therapy main.


It depends if you like losing to the Formats Top 2 decks or not. Flash would be an awful match up with Leyline, and so would Ichorid.


@White Splash: Aven Mindcensor seems interesting. I should try it out.

With what you said, I am thinking this right now...


// Mana 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp


// Creatures 13
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
1 Thrashing Wumpus


// Spells 22
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Dystopia
1 Null Rod/Powder Keg
1 Yawgmoth's Will


// Sideboard 15
4 Extirpate
4 Unmask
3 Dystopia
1 Engineered Plague
1 Masticore
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thrashing Wumpus


This deck has been very consistent against Flash and Ichorid so far. GAT is still untested, but the many Fish variants have been great match-ups so far. Tutoring for Dystopia is soo cool.

Cutting Win conditions isnt a problem for me. I will gladly cut my Negators/Shades, but only 4 of them. I might run Leylines in place of them. I am also trying out Extirpates and Unmask right now, and I am very happy with them. I'm only concerned about the Sideboard so far.

I really disliked Chains. I'm already forcing them to discard constantly with Specter.

-1 Chains of M.

+1 Extirpate

That has been a very strong move so far. Extirpate takes out stuff like Ichorid and such. I might even cut 4 Hymn to Tourach for more Extirpates and Unmasks, which can be deadly against Flash on the play. I also want people to make suggestions on what I should to make room for Leylines. Right now, I am thinking

-2 Phyrexian Negator
-1 Nantuko Shade
-1 Extirpate/Open slot

+4 Leyline of the Void

I am okay with 13 threats, as long as I have 3 Tutors, it's still theoreticall 13, and this allows me to decrease the amount of Mulligans I make. Chalice has been awesome against Flash. Hitting their Moxen, and 8 Pacts has been awesome. With the lack of Moxen, you should start tutoring for Strip Mines, or maybe more disruption.

GAT is a untested match-up, but I think it should be easy for me. I have board control and a lot of hand control. I also have Dystopia, which I can board extra copies in.

@hvndr3d y34r h3x: Powder Keg sounds awesome. I still like my Chalices, and the Nabster thang greatly helps, since it does get Null Rod. I'm currently testing a Powder Keg right now.

I just wanted to build a Sui Black list because I got bored. I was aware of the changes in the Banned & Restricted list, but wasnt much aware of the current metagame, other than the whole GAT fiasco. Since this is something I should watch out for, I think the perfect answer is Dystopia, hence Sui Black.

Sui Black is great against slower Drain decks, Fish decks, and a decent Combo Match-Up as hell, but a horrible Ichorid Game, which most decks tend to have, unless you're playing Combo. I picked Sui Black as a pet project of mine, based on the older lists.


// Sympathy for the Devil, Chalice Black w/ White
// Mana 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp


// Creatures 13
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 23
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mind Twist
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void


// Sideboard 15
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nether Void
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Seal of Cleansing/Serenity
1 Engineered Plague
1 Honor the Fallen
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte


This deck still seems incomplete, IMO. I love the Nabster feel in this deck, and I especially love Chalice of the Void. Chalice gives this deck a better answer to Combo, and a pretty cool way to wreck Fish and a zero Turn drop to make Moxes look bad. The Tutors are especially awesome, finding Solutions, like Dystopia against GAT and Fish, CoW and Null Rod against Drain.

This deck recent splashed White for Swords, Jotun Grunt, and Aven Mindcensor in the maindeck, in place of Shades, Yawgmoth's Will, and Negators.

Maindecked Leylines + Chalices allow the deck to fight Flash better. Dystopia is a bomb against GAT, and Ichorid meets Leylines, and from the SB, Honor the Fallen and Thrashing Wumpus.

I still believe that Fish is still very strong, and like always, must adapt with the new metagame changes. I think Wizard Fish is a very strong approach right now, and the Ninja/Jotun Grunt synergy is just nuts. Right now, I think Feinstein's list is really strong right now at fighting Dryads. Ichorid, however, is a problem.  Serum Powder + Leyline i just awesome. I however, believe that Mystical Tutor for Honor the Fallen is techy. Yes, it's narrow, but Morning Tide kinda sucks.... and Grunt does what Morning Tide does anyway.

It seems GWS Long might be more viable right now with the presence of Merchant Scroll + Gush decks. Pitch Long is good right now because FoW can counter a Chalice, but GWS Long makes up for the lack of answers to Chalice by running 3 global Artifact bounce effects.

I'm leaning towards Pitch Long right now, but everytime when I think about the current metagame, it seems GWS Long is the better metagame choice.

ehh.... I'm running Gush Fish and Gushy Bird Sh*t. There, Tempo decks have a chance now. What is Fish gonna do with all that land? Chain into Gushes of course!


// Lion Fish
// Mana 21
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage


// Spells 24
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod



.... I was half joking. I do see decks like Fish and Gush having enough fuel to do stupid crap though.