It's too late now. Adding it would be jumping the shark but...

Originally Posted by Soulflame: 
As a 6th color, purple or orange/yellow are mentioned a lot, but I think brown also has its merits.

You see, when I think of a sixth color to fit, I (like the developers) would put it in between blue and black. It really *does* fit there (and only there) for a few reasons;
All the colors will have a really identifiable enemy; light vs dark, fire vs water, and nature vs.. artifice.

That would be how I would approach the 6th color; as Artifice, and work from there. It already exists in some way in current magic; colorless. This fits very well as an enemy for green, as it already has a lot of artifact destruction.
So in PC you could have moved artifacts and perhaps new (colorless) sorceries and instants to purple. The color would be about being the enemy of nature, interrupting/intervening with life cycles and such.
I could write more on this subject, but that would go too deeply in things we won't see (for a long time anyway)

Originally Posted by smily123  :
I thought about this for a little while when i was reading the article

this is the modified symbol for if there was a 6th color while i stared at this for a while i noticed something

Blacks oppisite is white (and vice versa)
Reds opposite is bue (and vise versa)
and now greens would be purple (BROWN) so that would mean at least flavorwise that purple would probably have to be mechanical because green is nature
would that mean we've had the 6th color all along? artifact?
or should it be slightly different and keep artifact in the middle

Originally posted by LightLink:

Looking at that picture made me start really thinking if it would work out, to have a sixth colour. I would want one, I think it would be interesting, but it does matter if it would work. And thinking about it, and looking at the placement of the colours on such a wheel, I think it could work easily.

Purple(BROWN) is in between black and blue. It is opposite green. White and Black are opposites, the order and group-ness to blacks anything-goes and selfishness. Blue is opposite to red, the order and intelligence to red's impulsiveness. We all know that.

Purple(BROWN) is opposite Green. That means that it should be based on artificial things. Green thinks that the world is fine, no need to change it. It sticks to what is made by nature. Purple should be the opposite...it should think that nature is too harsh, and that the world should be changed to make things better for everybody. It should put emphasis on knowledge, but not for knowledge's sake, like blue. The point is not to know things, but to make things better through technology. Which makes it a good neighbour for black, as this is rather selfish, and it is also not inherently for the group. This also makes it seem very capitalist, but industrious. Like an Ayn Rand novel.

This points one initially to the thought that artefacts are already the 6th colour. But artefacts are the products, not the producers. There are even green artefacts. Anybody could make them.

Finally, this actually puts some backing as to why they thought city could be purples land. Purple is opposite green. It wouldn't want to live in some natural place. It would build cities, because cities are obviously better to live in than some island or some crazy swamp. (this mechanically would seem to give it land destruction, as a Terra-forming kinda deal, since purple wouldn't want to live on an uncomfortable mountain, or make a city on one) So obviously, its land is a city.

That's my take on it, and I feel completely confident that the colour could be made to fit in with the rest of the colours, and not screw anything up.

Thought Criminal:

Artifact already has ties to black (fearless, etc.) and blue (Veldalkens, etc.) so it fits between them.

Black has terror, and Blue also has artifact stealing, artifact affinity, artifact tutoring, tinker.

Master Decoy:

2 colorless for a 2/2 purple creature but if you paid the cost with purple mana he has an ability like flying or vigilance. Alternatively he could have an activated ability that requires purple mana which will give him flying or vigilance until end of turn. This could extend to instants and sorceries too. Any deck could play a 2 colorless mana instant that deals two damage to target creature, but if it was paid with PP then it deals an additional two damage to another target creature.

LordofStorm:

Colorless (but not artifact) spells of all kinds with a keyword - Bleak - You cannot spend colored mana to play this.

Xenophanes:
I am saying that I think the 3 new "internally consistent" colors should have relationships among each other, while the 5 traditional colors will retain their existing relationships. These new colors will have drawbacks and advantages over the old colors. These colors can still destroy the older colors and visa versa.

This means that a Purple 'distruction spell' whatever that may be will still destroy a Red permanent, just as a green distruction spell would have. Additionally, purple creatures could still be blocked by the normal color creatures. They do not ignore each other. They just don't balance with the other colors. They balance with the 3 new colors.

ok... here is a Generalized way of thinking about it.

Current 5 Color Symmetry:
White - Order, Life Gain, Efficient Weenies
Blue - Flying, Counterspells, Water, Card Draw
Green - Trample, Fatties, Mana Accel
Red - Haste, Burn, Chaotic Events
Black - Discard, Death, Life Loss

3 Color Symmetry:
Purple - Mystic World
Yellow - Energy World
Brown - Physical World

Why add these 3? To add variety. Are they necessary? No.

I am only providing a method in which I think WotC could introduce a new color (by adding a set of new colors) that would not destroy the value of existing cards.

Of course they could do a one time thing with purple, but I really think that would sell as gimmic. Adding a block with a set of new colors that supplement, but not replace existing colors would be a nice addition to the game even if it is for only one set.

My take:

It SHOULD have been opposite green, all about the artificial, industry, technology, urbanization and using it to reshape the world. It's land should have been City.

Red vs. Blue - Blue Elemental Blast vs. Red Elemental Blast

White vs. Black - White Knight vs. Black Knight

Green vs. ????

Good mechanic:

1A Terraform - Target land is a city. This effect doesn't end at end of turn.

1A Deforest - Target forest is a city. You gain control of it.

It should be have equipment that it could graft onto opposing creatures to steal them, and/or enhance them.

Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Workshop, City of Traitors - these would all be brown lands, ie. Artifact lands.

In Six Color Magic, Creature Abilities...
white has first strike
blue has illusion - mechanistically the same as shadow is today
black has fear
green has trample
red has haste
brown has regenerate/reconstruct - you rebuild artifacts from their broken debris with a little mana investment.

Hell, if it was done over from scratch, it would be nice if mana was called something different for each color.

Brown mana would be called electrictity, and it's land type - Power Plant. Blues mana could be called wisdom/knowledge, etc. Card drawing should never have been restricted to blue however. All colors should be able to use their strenghts to draw cards.

I was mainly talking about a Manaless build with just a bit of mana and more in the sideboard to bring in versus Leyline. Basically what this thread is about.

Besides what different does it make whether it's mana or manaless. Neither deck is better equipped to recover from a wasted Bazaar than the other. I like the card just because it serves many different roles, and at worst can be pitched to Unmask or feed Ichorid.

But I see from the lack of response that no one else here seems to like the card.

What about the rest of my post?

Are my statements about Lotus inaccurate? Why?

Say just for the sake of the argument that Meadbert is correct in his assessment that Leyline is superior to Duress in all your problem matchups and that Duress is just not worth running, and you don't want to play more than 1 Ashen Ghoul. Is Black Lotus still worth it then. Is the difference so marginal then that it no longer matter?

Yes, Black Lotus can be powerful when it's in your opening hand.

But, it will be in your opening hand 11% of games. But what about the other 89% of games where instead of Dredging a black creature to feed Ichorid to into your graveyard, you'll be Dredging a Black Lotus with is basically a worthless slot.

What percentage of the games when Lotus in your opening hand prove to be very beneficial? If that percentage is under 50%, I would lean towards not playing Lotus, because that 5% of games where you have both Lotus and the ability to do something powerful without doesn't make up for the 60-95% of games where you will dredge Lotus into the yard where it does nothing rather than being a good black creature and feeding Sutured Ghoul or Ichorid or something.

It would be handy to list what broken plays Black Lotus enables...

Lotus, Cabal Therapy, Hardcast Golgori Thug, Sac Thug to Therapy, Bazaar, Dredge on the first turn!

Yes that is insanely broken, but it requires a lot of other cards to do (4, one of which is restricted), which means it will only happen a very small percentage of games. I would venture less than 1% of games if that.

Other than the above very unlikely play, what scenarios can you think of where Black Lotus is worth running?

If meadbert assertion that Duress isn't worth it is correct, I really can't think of any other than that one scenario where I would prefer Black Lotus over another dreadger or something.

There is a key piece of tech you guys are missing out on...

Phantasmagorian, 5BB
Creature - Horror (Uncommon)

When you play Phantasmagorian, any player may discard three cards. If a player does, counter Phantasmagorian.
Discard three cards: Return Phantasmagorian from your graveyard to your hand.
6/6

It fills the same role as Gigapede of letting you get Dredgers into your yard even if Bazaar gets nixed, also feeds Sutured Ghoul, plus it's black so it can feed Unmask or Ichorid too.

Which slots do you suggest cutting to make room for this card Stephen?

As for Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Lotus Petal in Manaless Ichorid, it doesnt make sense to me...

Yes, Black Lotus can be powerful when it's in your opening hand.

But, it will be in your opening hand 11% of games. But what about the other 89% of games where instead of Dredging a black creature to feed Ichorid to into your graveyard, you'll be Dredging a Black Lotus with is basically a worthless slot.

Nevertheless, I strongly recommend testing Lotus in your opening hand as you stated. And when you do, please keep a record of the percentage of the games when Lotus in your opening hand proves to be very beneficial. If that percentage is under 50%, I would lean towards not playing Lotus, because that 5% of games where you have both Lotus and the ability to do something powerful without doesn't make up for the 60-95% of games where you will dredge Lotus into the yard where it does nothing rather than being a good black creature and feeding Sutured Ghoul or Ichorid or something.

It would be handy to list what broken plays Black Lotus enables...

Lotus, Cabal Therapy, Hardcast Golgori Thug, Sac Thug to Therapy, Bazaar, Dredge on the first turn!

Yes that is insanely broken, but it requires a lot of other cards to do (4, one of which is restricted), which means it will only happen a very small percentage of games. I would venture less than 1% of games if that.

Other than the above very unlikely play, what scenarios can you think of where Black Lotus is worth running?


As for Mox Jet, that makes zero sense in this deck. Manaless Ichorid ONLY needs to stop Leyline/Planar Void. It can play through pretty much anything else.

You can't stop those cards with Duress, you NEED to use Emerald Charm/Chain of Vapor. Black mana is useless for stopping the cards that this deck needs to stop. And thus, so is Mox Jet.

Duress is really subpar in this deck, as Meadbert stated well....

I have tested Duress versus Leyline of the Void and I continue to find Leyline of the Void to be better. Basically, my goal is to keep Long from winning on turn 2. On turn 3 I can either win or use Therapies to disrupt Long till turn 4. The big question is do I survive Long's powerful turn 2. Leyline always comes down in time for turn 2. Duress does not. If I am on the draw then I either have to forgo playing Bazaar so I can play a manaland to get Duress mana up or I have to wait till turn 2 to Duress Long. A turn 2 Duress is too late. Also, once mana is added to the deck Duress competes with Cabal Therapy to a certain extent.

Thus, I propose, subbing out Mox Jet for City of Brass in the deck. That way you can easily transform in more mana to ensure you can fight off Leyline.

And I propose running a sideboard to the tune of...

3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine/Caverns
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor

I look forward to another well thought out reply Stephen.

Should SCG allow that?

We could even require that the slips be smaller than (or the same size as) the cards and that the slips can't be visible at all, perhaps by gluing them on. We could even require that the slips be printed on standard typing paper and can only be glued onto foil cards whose foil has been peeled off. Whatever it takes. Heck, I would gladly pick up 12 random foils on ebay.

Ozimek, your post is really confusing.


None of those reasons apply to any of the Oath builds including the original Endress build that run Mana Leak over Chalice, and for very good reason. Chalice is often set to 0 anyways

The main function of either Thirst or Impulse in Oath is to get you the card you need to combo out and win quickly. You are basically saying that a card like Thirst that's strictly inferior for that function (doesn't cost as much mana and digs one card less) should be run just on the off chance that you play a chalice and set it for 2?


I respect your opinion but i'm going to have to disagree with it for the same reasons that others have posted as well.

I suppose you don't have to run LoA, eventhough the card is truly awesome. You can use it if you're going second. And you can use it the same turn that you use a cantrip like Brainstorm, Time Walk, Impulse, Demonic Tutor etc.

"If I could run 5 FoW, I wouldn't."

Now that's just LUNACY.

You sir are certifiably insane and I'm being dead serious.

yeah, he's a great creature.

What Bram said.
-Jacob

Here's what's currently being considered in Legacy, you could borrow some of their tech...

CREATURES (15)
4 Dimir Cutpurse
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Psychatog
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

SPELLS (23)
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Umezawa's Jitte

LANDS (22)
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

Ofcourse, to make it Vintage worthy, you'll need to add the following cards...

3 chains of mephistopheles
4 Dark Confidant
1 Lib of Alexandria
4 Waste lands
1 strip
4 Mish Factory
1 lotus
2 mox
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical
1 imperial seal
1 demonic tutor
1 personal tutor
1 tinker
1 dsc
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 sinkhole
Negator
Daze
Withered Wretch
Mesmeric Fiend
Misdirection

tinker dsc is actually quite solid in fish.

fish can lock your opponent down pretty consistently. the problem is that it takes too long to win.

it also loses to random aggro/newb decks - all those people that come into a vintage tourney with their legacy or extended decks, proxying in a few pieces of power.

dsc addresses both problems. and now that you have black and it's 3 awesome tutors (as well as necro), you can find it consistently enough that it's well worth playing.

if not tinker, atleast jitte should be run. it addresses those problems as well and even standard fish uses it. this deck has more use for it since it can be tutored out, can gain back life lost by confidant etc.

but yeah, you actually have a good reason for not wanting to run jitte. you have no reason not to run tinker though.

Sinkhole is AWESOME with your full set of Null Rod, Wastes and Spiketails. Mana denial can the main theme of your deck as you have enough ways to do it consistently.

you're off to a great start though.

There are just far too many great cards.

If everyone ran 80 card decks, this deck would be absolutely perfect LOL.

the tinker dsc is actually quite solid in fish.

fish can lock your opponent down pretty consistently. the problem is that it takes too long to win.

it also loses to random aggro/newb decks - all those people that come into a vintage tourney with their legacy or extended decks, proxying in a few pieces of power.

dsc addresses both problems. and now that you have black and it's 3 awesome tutors (as well as necro), you can find it consistently enough that it's well worth playing.

if not tinker, atleast jitte should be run. it addresses those problems as well and even standard fish uses it. this deck has more use for it since it can be tutored out, can gain back life lost by confidant etc.

but yeah, you actually have a good reason for not wanting to run jitte. you have no reason not to run tinker though.

Also, I think Cabal Therapy is overkill as is Echoing Truth, Rushing River and Darkblast (there's a reason standard fish doesn't run any bounce) and Daze is a lot better than Annul (it can stop opposing Welders and counterspells and such too).

Also, a main advantage of Flying Men is curiosity.

Some of your other card choices seem a bit awkward as well.

Sinkhole is AWESOME with your full set of Null Rod, Wastes and Spiketails. Mana denial can the main theme of your deck as you have enough ways to do it consistently.

you're off to a great start though.

Actually, I think Time Walk trumps Black Lotus since it can be tutored up to win immediately before your opponent can respond if you have a resolved oath and just got a creature with it.

I also think that Oath is actually the best deck to play (or second best to fish atleast) if you're doing 5 proxy.

The optimal list of the above build only uses 8-9 proxies (depending on if you think Imperial Seal is optimal).

So basically, you only have to cut 3 cards, all 3 of which are less important for oath than for any other deck since oaths win condition just needs 2 mana total and you only need it once. So both Lotus Petal and even stuff like Elivish Spirit Guide (or stuff like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt) can do a reasonable job replacing those 3 cards.

I'll try it out definately. And I'll cut the chalice to add a land too.

What do you think of the Misdirections though.

That's the thing that really differentiates from other current oath decklists. I can think of a lot of matchups where they could be game deciding (pretty much any deck running blue - and that's pretty much every deck in this meta)...

except for Stax, but I think this beats stax pretty easily anyways.

I think the build is using Wastelands as part of the 11 land slots that weren't specified.

Crop Rotation seems kind of narrow. It doesn't pitch to FoW or Misdirection, is hated out by your own Chalice for 1, is card disadvantage, and is a really narrow tutor.

All the other tutors can get atleast one card that will win the game. This one can only tutor for Orchard which is rarely as important as most decks play creatures. It can't get tinker.

But I will try it out.

The card that seems really interesting is including 1-2 Misdirection. It lets you win counterwars and also misdirects anything directed at either Oath or your creatures. In short it can win games. Plus it can pitch to FoW in a pinch. Have you tried it out?

What do you think of this build, being discussed at http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23221.0

11 Mana Sources
4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria - This could be a land that produces colored mana.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

4 Oath of Druids

1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Pithing Needle/Chalice of the Void - This could be a land or crop rotation or disenchant or balance or something random instead.

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

It has more tutors and more random wins.

It also has more protection like Misdirection and Pithing Needle and Chalice.

Here's what's currently being considered in Legacy, you could take a page from them...

CREATURES (15)
4 Dimir Cutpurse
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Psychatog
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

SPELLS (23)
4 Aether Vial
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Umezawa's Jitte

LANDS (22)
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave

Ofcourse, to make it Vintage worthy, you'll need to add the following cards...

3 chains of mephistopheles
4 Dark Confidant
1 Lib of Alexandria
4 Waste lands
1 strip
4 Mish Factory
1 lotus
2 mox
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical
1 imperial seal
1 demonic tutor
1 personal tutor
1 tinker
1 dsc
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 sinkhole
Negator
Daze
Withered Wretch
Mesmeric Fiend
Misdirection

---------------------------------------------------------

sorry, i posted this elsewhere not realizing it's better posted here...

black has a bunch of awesome utility creatures(withered wretch), the best card drawing creature ever made, and some other goodies from ravinca.

it also has some great fatties like phyrexian negator that are perfect in this environment where most of the creatures are welders and burn isn't anywhere to be found.

also duress is awesome

and if you include the tinker, dsc minicombo to deal with aggro and randomness, black will give you three great tutors to get it out consistently.

i think that would all make the deck much more competitive.

--------------------------------------

basically, take a standard b/w fish decklist, take out the white and add in the above cards. add in tinker and black tutors to deal with randomness. and you should have a strong deck.

how about a black splash.

black has a bunch of awesome utility creatures(withered wretch), the best card drawing creature ever made, and some other goodies from ravinca.

it also has some great fatties like phyrexian negator that are perfect in this environment where most of the creatures are welders and burn isn't anywhere to be found.

also duress is awesome

and if you include the tinker, dsc minicombo to deal with aggro and randomness, black will give you three great tutors to get it out consistently.

i think that would all make the deck much more competitive.

I need to build a 5 proxy budget oath deck.

This is pretty much the same build that's top 8ing everywhere not isn't it? (assuming you run the mana leaks in the 4 open slots where a bunch of possible cards were listed including mana leaks)

Why is this in developmental?

And also, how do you recommend making it more budget for a 5 proxy environment?


edit: sorry, i was just searching for good budget oath lists, and realized that this was really close to the one that's winning tourneys. didn't realize this was such an old thread.

anyways, which five power cards should be cut? LoA, Seal, Lotus, and 2 off color moxen??

How about a pure burn deck ala....

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Flame Rift

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Barbarian Ring
13 Mountain

You get around all of the artifact, enchantment and creature destruction, have a great answer to all the fish and goblins and welders and what not in flamebreak and mogg fanatic. It seems to work at legacy.

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions, I've revised the list.