For Duals, I always thought they should print something like this:

Murky Depths
Island Swamp
You may not play more than a combined total of 4 cards named Murky Depths and Underground Sea in a deck.
  Add  or  to your mana pool.

Still fetchable and functions like Underground Sea in every way.  Still limits to 4 copies in eternal decks and doesn't break the reserve list.  Seems viable.  Simply lowering the entry point for duals alone would significantly increase people's ability to buy into paper Vintage and Legacy.

An apt comparison here is Strategic Planning, which only digs three deep, but costs one less, lets you take any card type, and hides your choice from you opponent.  It doesn't see any play.

As much as I want this to be good, we're better off just play Fact or Fiction.

I feel like if you're going to add Green, you'd be better off going with Living Wish with Academy in the SB.  As you said, Crop Rotation get's axed by Mental Misstep (as does Expedition Map) and Living Wish just provides more utility than Sylvan Scrying enabling you to pull a couple more answers/threats from the board.

One option to make this work would be to swap Green for Red entirely.  You'll lose the utility of Dack in the main (and Wheel), but you can add more consistency by adding Sylvan Library and Green has spells that can replace the Red artifact hate in the board as well. 

Not using Dark Confidant w/ Bazaar?  In my trials in using Bazaar as a draw engine, the combination of 4x Squee and 4x Confidant is the best way to retain card advantage while using Bazaar.  Also, with the amount of graveyard hate resulting from the prevalence of dredge, I feel that only 3x Squee will not fill this role in a deck.  I understand that the concept of the deck is to weld things in from the graveyard/cast grudge with FB, but unfortunately still, most of the spells in the deck need to be cast from your hand.  I've found that without having a good engine to retain cards in your hand, decks like this tend to "peter-out" when faced with hate.

I used to play a Wee Dragonauts as sort of a Tog-deck back when Brainstorm and Gush were still unrestricted.  In this deck, the coolest card was, by far, Psychotic Fury.  Giving the Dragonauts Double Strike and cantripping was super sweet.  Unfortunately, it only targets multi-colored dudes, so for Kiln Fiend, I would maybe throw a Double Cleave in as a one or two of.  Still an instant, so it can be played after blockers have been declared, and it helps you still deal damage to your opponent if they declare a blocker.  Basically it has a similar effect to Berserk if unblocked while not killing your creature if you don't deal lethal damage.  Lastly, combining Berserk and Double Cleave in a single turn is nuts --> 25 damage if unblocked.

If going an R/G route, it seems Invigorate might be cool as it generates a net damage of +4 for free.  In combination with Berserk, the net damage increases to +11.  I was also looking at Prey's Vengence with Rebound, gives you +5/+2 for two turns.  Also, if running Green, you can throw Goyfs in as creatures 4-8.  Don't forget that Invigorate + Double Cleave/Berserk is generally just as good with Goyf.

Lots of options here.  Plus its a fun deck to toy around with.

While I don't think this card will end up becoming a Vintage staple, I agree with Smennen that its value lies in its ability to stimulate thought.  This card is "intriguing" and will most likely remain so as new cards come out.  One of the first things I'll look at when a new set comes out is "Are there any cards in here that might be synergistic with Leyline of Anticipation?"  Personally, as it stands in Vintage, I feel that this probably works best as a sideboard card for dredge (especially the blue variants), by giving dredges answers instant speed as well as giving Therapy and Dread Return instant speed, giving those two cards a vast degree more versatility.  The added ability to deal with Leyline on Turn 0 (rare but possible) may increase the dredge win rate in games 2 and 3.

I wouldn't go so far to say that I'm in the camp of nay-sayers here, but I agree that the card's applications remain to be seen.  More succinctly, I feel that the card isn't "down right broken" as Tolarian Academy or YawgWill were when they entered the metagame.  This card, in relation to its impact on Vintage, is probably closer to that of Theda Adel.  I recall a similar thread (with some yays and some nays) debating the impact of the card on Vintage.  As it stands now, though many here felt the card would be fantastic for fish, it turned out to be difficult to resolve and hasn't seen an exorbitant amount of play.

Although I feel the impact on Vintage will be quite short of cataclysmic, I believe this card's impact on Legacy may be.  The fact that Lotus Petal is unrestricted, gives way to a slew of Turn 0 moves like Spell Snare/Pierce, as well as being able to Brainstorm (also not restricted) in response to Duress/Thoughtseize.  Moreover, the effect on Blue Dredge Decks will be phenomenal, giving rise to Turn 0 Breakthrough and Careful Study, allowing you to dredge on your first draw (an amazing move in a format without Bazaar).

Regardless, I'm happy that Wizards took the time and effort to give us a card that will inspire creativity and improvisation in the Vintage community.  Being somewhat removed from Magic, its cards like this that draw me back into thinking about/playing the game, get me reading TMD again, and building/testing new decks.  Do I want to test a control deck that can Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn off a Lotus Petal/Mox/Lotus before my opponent draws a card?  Yes please.  Instant speed storm?  Worth a try.  Turbo Zvi with Dream Halls?  It'll probably be s***, but it'll be fun to try.  In the end, cards like this are what have kept me interested in Magic as I grow older and have less time for the game because of work, family, etc.

...but that's just my interpretation, of the situation.

Forest Failure man,

Dude.

Those are some awesome thoughts and I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I guess I wouldn't go to the extreme to say that Vintage is a particularly less competitive format; however, I do believe that there is a tendancy of Vintage players to play a deck that has a lower probability of winning because they know how to play it or have a soft spot for the deck.  Personally, I don't get to play many tournaments (and can't really since I don't have the resources at the moment), but I do often play on MWS.  When I do play online, I never play Dredge or Flash because I'm looking for a fun game thats going to kill an hour or so.  Further, I rarely play GAT or Stax because I'm not really fond of either deck.  Most often I play some Bazaar variant or some mono-blue variant because I find that I have the most fun when playing these decks.  These decks probably aren't the best decks in the format, but I find that they generally spurn the most enjoyable experience for me, even if I lose.  I think that alot of Vintage players probably feel the same way.

You should start a thread with your thoughts.  I'd be interested to see what others have to say.

-Matt

Cool deck; however, is the inclusion of green really necessary?  The only green card in the deck is Fastbond (and Ancient Grudge).   I understand that Fastbond is straight busted, but is it so busted to justify a third color by itself?

If green is a viable inclusion, it would seem that Life from the Loam would be almost automatic.  Also, what about ol' Tarmogoyf?  He's just such a house with Bazaar that his absence seems fishy.  Perhaps 2 Goyfs in the main as opposed to the grudges?  It seems like there's already enough artifact hate with the Welder/Monkey duo.

What about 1 Sword of Fire and Ice?  Monkey/Welder with SOFI for the win?

Also, perhaps -1 Titan, +1 Platz in the MD.  Platz generally just wins game 1 vs. Ichorid, which is hypothetically the match if you have Leylines in the board.

Lastly, playing with Gamble in Vintage is so intense it makes me want to kick my mom right in the face.

Some thoughts,

-Matt

Eternal Oath won a small tourney in Tokyo in October.  Oath with 4 Eternal Witnesses.  3 Living Wishes and a toolbox of creatures in the side.  Its an cool deck; however, its not posted any substantial results beyond this.

Link to the results for reference:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=662

-Matt

Feyd,

My buddy played a very similar deck but ran 4 Xantid Swarm, and some Duress effects for protection.  I think it was a little less reliable (combo-wise); however, quite a bit more resilient to hate.

Peace

Matt

Just for reference, in the middle of last year, Xavier Sanchez took 4th at UAL Power Nine in Madrid out of 159 players.

His decklist:

Maindeck

7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Manta Rider
3 Null Rod

Sideboard

1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyll´s Recall
1 Anull
1 Energy Flux
3 Spell Snare
3 Extract
3 Tormod´s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

It functions the way any Fish deck does.  Choke mana, counter important spells, hit with lots of dudes (in this case, dudes with islandwalk).  Perhaps this can somehow be updated with LOR/MT?  Figured I'd throw it out there.

-Matt

P.S. It took me forever to find that deck on Morphling

Howdy,

I tried a similar Fluctuator-styled Drain deck a while back and really liked Infernal Contract in it.  Because you have non-fluctuating cards in the deck (i.e. Songs, Ritual, etc.) you occasionally hit a point when you can no longer cycle cards.  Infernal Contract lets you draw 4 more cards to cycle and continue going nuts.

Often, you can go:

Ritual --> Fluctuator (B Float) --> Cycle, Cycle, etc --> Songs (for like 12 or more) --> Contract --> Cycle more --> Songs --> Drain.

The problem is that any disruption completely neuters this deck and there really aren't alot of viable ways to deal with it.  The problem with Drain Life (or Consume Spirit) is that it really just takes a counterspell to stop it.  It almost be more viable to run tendrils and just hope to play multiple Songs, Contracts, Rituals, CoFs, etc. to reach a high storm count.  I thought maybe Duress effects, but you can't really run them in quantity because they mess up your "smooth fluctuation". 

Tutors may also be useful.  Demonic/Vampiric/Consult.  Maybe just consult, since it cost only B and puts the card right in your hand.


@Hauntedechoes:

Mana Accel here is a bad idea.  The only thing this deck is trying to do is play Fluctuator, then cycle alot of creatures into the grave, play 2+ Songs of the Damned and a Consume Spirit.   Colorless mana accel only inhibits this plan.  The only mana accel I would suggest is on-color stuff--ideally, Lotus, Petal and Mox Jet.  If he can't afford the 2 powerful ones, I suggest simply petal.

Anyway, just some thoughts,

-Matt

Concerning Saffi Eriksdotter:

I always wondered if someone in R&D named Erik had a daughter named Saffi...hence the namesake.

Funny, but off topic.

Saffi + Loyal Retainers might be kind of cool in a deck like old-school "Chimera" (Fecundity, Ashnod's Altar, Saproling Cluster).  SotF would work well, getting Saffi into the grave to be "retained".  Perhaps Rectors to get Fecudity into play.  Fecundity + Saffi + Retainers = drawing library and winning.  BoP for acceleration and maybe even add black for victiMISE (not really, but man did I love that card when it came out).  Just some thoughts.

-Matt

Indeed.  Said deck just won a 51 player tourney in Madrid.  It can be found here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=747

I always run a snow-covered island because I like the artwork on the IA one.  Like Easter Island, but post global warming.

But I'm sure the Gifts explanation or Tainted Pact are the reason better players than me use them.  I, however, am not a "better" player.

[rant]

Ok, let me get this straight.  The argument thats going on here originated with discussion of Goyf vs. Dryad in GAT, and has evolved to Goyf/Dryad/Tog vs. ETW/Tinker-DSC as the more powerful win condition.  So in essence, we're really just discussing which is the better Gush-deck--GAT or Empty-Gush.  This may be a discussion that merits its own thread.  Perhaps someone with lots of time could do a VS matchup of the two decks

Owen:

I do not agree with your point about Echoing Truth where you stated:

I don't think your rhetoric here really addresses the point at hand which is Echoing Truth AND Stifle effects.  With the emergence of TK Deeznauts, packing 4 Stifles, 1 ET and a full counter-suite, do you still believe that ETW is the far superior win condition?  Stifle doesn't hurt Dryad/Goyf/Tog and ET (mentioned before by someone) only returns one of these threats to your hand to be played again.  You note that FOW, Thoughtseize, Drain, Pyro, REB and Duress are your answers the the threat of ET, but forgot to realize that your opponent is likely playing those same disruptive spells as well.  Lastly, with the post-board addition of Pyroclasm to many decks, you're looking at another one or two threats to your Goblin Tokens.

Also, with regards to your thoughts on Tinker>DSC in GAT, I disagree.  It's a great win condition, but not the best for GAT's low artifact count.  You state:

Here I must ask you if YOU are being serious.  You really think you can afford to wait to play Tinker with all the disruption you just mentioned?  I feel you've nullified your own point here because remember YOU ONLY PLAY ONE TINKER.

In the end, I feel like you're not arguing about the modification of GAT, but rather the complete change to another archetype, Empty-Gush.  I mean, if you're removing the "growable" creatures (togs and dryads) you're really not playing GAT are you?

[/rant]

-Matt

A couple of thoughts that I've had on this deck:

1.  How effective is Gaddock Teeg?  I personally have never really thought he's as "game-breaking" as people make him out to be; however, I may be wrong.  It seems he'd be good against Empty Gifts, but I still feel like I'm missing something.  His absence in other successful decks also makes me question his viability in the Vintage metagame.

2.  Vroman noted that Zombie Infestation in his experience is simply a "win more" in this deck.  Are there other disruptive elements (perhaps for the Empty Gifts matchup) that could be added in its stead?

3.  If Zombie Infestation is the correct pick, what about Cabal Therapy?  Does this deck, with ZI have enough creatures to make it worthwhile.  It could quite possible be valuable as a one or two-of, simply because it is strengthened with the other hand-viewing discard effects.

4.  Unearth? (just kidding, I love that card)

Anyway, some thoughts.

-Matt

With 2 moxen and 4 CotV as your only low CC artifacts, do you really think that Tinker --> DSC is a viable win condition?  It seems that often Tinker would be a dead card with no artifacts to sacrifice to it.  Also, a black deck without Dark Confidant just doesn't seem right.  I think he's just to good not to include.

I disagree with this statement.  I believe that all three decks you mention have equal synergy with Bazaar; however, they utilize it in different ways.

In Dragon, Bazaar is used primarily to put Dragons (the win condition) and Deep Analysis into the graveyard as well as improving card quality.

The two Baghdad Bob variants utilize Bazaar with the addition of Dark Confidant to, in essence, draw 4 cards and discard 3 each turn. 

In addition to Dark Confidant, Vroman's deck utilizes multiple other cards that have synergy with Bazaar, most notably:

4 lavaman (eating the chaff that goes to the graveyard)
4 jotgrunt (removing the drawback of the cheap 4/4, enabling it to remain on the board "longer than its meant to")
1 riftstone portal
1 tomb yawgs (two lands that reduce the drawback of Bazaar itself--i.e. it doesn't produce mana)

Simply looking at numbers, Baghdad Bob variants have more synergy with Bazaar, as they run more cards that have synergy with Bazaar (i.e. 4 Bob, 4 Lavaman, 4 Grunt, 2 land).  I think what makes the synergy equal between the two decks (Dragon and Baghdad Bob) is that Dragon's Bazaar-synergistic cards are more potent, as they lead to winning the game as opposed to, in Baghdad Bob, creating incredible card advantage and increasing the probablity of crippling lock/disruptive elements. However, these lock/disruptive elements in Baghdad Bob, when metagamed correctly, can be quite as potent as Dragon's synergistic "win the game cards."

That being said...


I agree with Mike the Mad on this one.  In decks that don't have access to blue and, consequently, its card drawing elements, Bazaar is a card-drawing engine to be considered.  Moreover, in decks that have components that allow you to draw an additional card each turn (i.e. Dark Confidant) and graveyard-value cards (i.e. Goyf, Riftstone Portal, Lavaman, Grunt, hell, even Therapy) that allow you to weather the Bazaar's drawbacks, then it should also be considered.  However, in decks that cannot create consistent, turn-based card advantage or utilize graveyard-value cards, like Flash for instance, including Bazaar would be nonsynergistic (if thats even a word).

Just some thoughts,

-Matt

Have you tested Living Wish?  It seems that if you moved 1 Wasteland and 1 Bazaar to the SB, you'd be able to increase your probability of fetching a very early strip effect.  Also, Living Wish makes it possible to fetch a Tarmogoyf or Vinelasher from the board for the kill, or some other utility land if you're in a tight spot.

Hey, at least it can't be misdirected.  Except in extremely limited circumstances.  God, that would be sooo awesome

Now, countering Turn 1 Dark Ritual is imperative...

Running this card with Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn and Extirpate is RIDICULOUS.

Almost guaranteed to rip two cards from your opening hand and possible many more.

That is all.

So, I've been thinking about this deck-concept and thought that GT + Chalice @ 1 is a pretty constricting lock.  So I proceeded to add in some Spheres of Resistance, Glowriders, and Mindcensors and this is what a came up with.  It's tempoed alot like MMWA (I actually used a MMWA deck as a ref-point when throwing this together.)  This is a really rough list, but I wanted to throw some ideas out there.

Also, is GT viable in somesort of GWU fish deck with Meddling Mages.  It seems that if you got GT on the board, then used mage to cut off something like Bstorm or Duress you could put the hurt on.

Lastly, the aforementioned points might not make alot of sense.  Work sucked today.  Sorry.

// Mana
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Selesnya Sanctuary
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 Savannah
        4 Wasteland
        2 City of Traitors
        1 Strip Mine
// Artifact Mana
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
// Artifacts
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        3 Tormod's Crypt (these where from the MMWA list, they could be something else)
        2 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Trinisphere
// Creatures
        4 Aven Mindcensor
        4 Glowrider
        4 Gaddock Teague
        4 Gathan Raiders

Worth discussing?   I'm interested to see what y'all think.

-Matt

As has been posted on many spoiler sites, Lorwyn will introduce a new type of card, the Planeswalker.  This, of course, raises the question, what will be their impact on Vintage.  For those unfamiliar, the two Planeswalkers that are rumored are:

Garruk Wildspeaker  -  2GG
Planeswalker - Garruk   Rare
+1: Untap two target lands.
-1: Put a 3/3 green Beast creature token into play.
-4: Creatures you control get +3/+3 and trample until end of turn.
3

Liliana Vess  -  3BB
Planeswalker - Liliana   Rare
+1 (Loyalty?): Target player discards a card.
-2 (Loyalty?): Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it.
-8 (Loyalty?): Put all creature cards in all graveyards into play under your control.
5

How these cards work is as follows:

- They are legendary (can't have more than one of each planeswalker).
- They come into play with loyalty counters equal to the number in the bottom right.
- You may play only one ability of each planeswalker on each of your turns, including the turn it comes into play, by adding or removing loyalty counters.
- When you attack a player, you can assign any number of your attackers to their planeswalker(s).
- The defending player can block creatures attacking their planeswalker(s).
- Whenever a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may assign that damage to their planeswalker(s) instead.
- Each damage dealt to a planeswalker removes a loyalty counter from it.
- If all the loyalty counters are gone, sacrifice the planeswalker.

I figured I would start this thread now because we have 2 of 5 Planeswalkers spoiled, and, accordingly, it will extend to cover all preemptive Planeswalker discussion.  It will be especially interesting to see what the Blue, Red and White Planeswalkers are, and, also, whether this will become a regular Magic mechanic to look forward to in each set (or at least those remaining in Lorwyn.

My initial thoughts are that Liliana may be a touch on the expensive side, even though she has powerful abilities.  On the otherhand, Garruk really has an effective casting cost of 2, provided you have at least 4 mana sources (2 of which are lands).    Further, in aggro-based decks, Garruk becomes, in many games, a "win next turn" card (i.e. you can use the Overrun effect the turn after he comes into play).  Lastly, the "3/3 Beast" beast ability doesn't seem too shabby, possibly providing an additional win condition.  Could this man be viable in the U/G aggro decks (i.e. Gro, Turbo-goyf, Zoo, etc)?  Could either of these cards spurn entirely new deck archetypes? 

I'm excited to see what the TMD community thinks.

-Matt

So, is TMWA just any deck that has red, Blood moon effects and no blue?  I have to say, minus the Blood Moon effects, Yarrington's deck looks like no TMWA deck I've seen before and probably deserves its own thread instead of being lumped into this one (I mean, the B/R version that took 5th some time ago was actually "TSWA")

Just my thoughts on the matter.

-Matt

I've been testing this deck on MWS for a while, and I've tweaked my list as follows:

-3 Control Magic
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Bribery

I like 1 top in just about everything, it always seems to be that absolute nuts for me.

While Bribery does up the Average Casting Cost of the deck for Confidant, it is simply a BOMB.  It's always boatloads of fun to take someone's Platinum Angel or DSC and beat the tar out of them with it.  I won one just tonight by stealing a Serendib Efreet.

Just some thoughts,

-Matt

This may sound ridiculous, but have you thought of using Temporal Spring.  I know its somewhat slower than the usual canon of bounce spells, but putting stuff on top of your owners library is some good (except vs. Oath).
Just a thought,
-Matt

Just since we're all talking about MaskNought and putting forth ideas, has anyone thought about playing UR MoonMask?  Obviously, what I mean here is using 6 or so Blood Moon effects in MaskNought compounded with REB's.  It seems like this could be quite potent.

Just some thoughts,

-Matt

I find it interesting that everyone's arguing about the "invincibility" of Ichorid and its "practically" immune to the common forms of hate.  Where is the empirical evidence to support this?  Given, Ichorid has an amazing game 1 record, winning most of its first games; however, it does not win tournaments (I think even Steve mentioned this at one point).  Hence, it must not be quite as resilient in games 2 and 3 as people seem to be assuming.  I'm not saying its not a good deck, its a great deck, but lets not get carried away use rhetoric that incorrectly characterizes it.

Concerning a wasted bazaar:
A wasted bazaar by itself is certainly not game over for the Ichorid player, it simply slows them down a bit.  And by slowing the Ichorid player down, this gives the opponent ample opportunity to find other forms of hate (i.e. Yixlid in Fish, Crypt in other decks, sometimes Planar Void).  I think thats the point here.  Yeah, Ichorid isn't destroyed by any single silver bullet (Leyline aside) in game 1, but, rather, by combinations of cards that work against it.

Just some thoughts,
-Matt

I've been playing this deck on MWS quite a bit recently and love playing it.  Since the new Dreadnought un-errata, I've really not had a chance to test, but this is what I think I would play.  The core of the deck began with Phillip Stirm's "Dark Illusions" linked above.  Some specific card selections are noted.

//MaskNought

// Land
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Underground Sea
        3 Island
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Swamp
        1 Flooded Strand
// Mana Accel
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby       
        1 Mox Pearl   (I'm thinking about cutting an off-color Mox for Lotus Petal, just to up the chance of the T1 Dreadnought)
        1 Mox Jet         
        1 Mox Sapphire
// Artifacts
        1 Sensei's Divining Top  (I love this card and it always does me right.  Great with Confidant too.)
// Black
        4 Dark Confidant
        3 Duress (only 3 now--was 4--however, I found it somewhat sub-par)
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation (I actually feel this could be dropped--you have so much draw, finding what you need is rarely a
        1 Demonic Tutor                                      problem)
// Blue
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Force of Will
        4 Stifle (With the new errata, you can't afford to run less than a full set.  Plus, with 4 strip effects, this can help you play
        3 Mana Leak (I love this card, wish I had room for 4)             the mana denial game as well)
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Rushing River (I like River here, but CoV and ET work well too)
// MaskNought
        4 Illusionary Mask
        4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Sideboard
        3 Massacre (Lots of UW Fish in my Meta, this does a number on 'em)
        4 Leyline of the Void
        2 Extipate (Valuable in lots of matches; however it goes in mostly against Flash for me)
        2 Hurkyll's Recall (This is my answer to Stax, though EFlux might work now since Mask isn't your only win condition)
        2 Diabolic Edict (Non-targetable removal is always good)
        1 Chain of Vapor (Again, this could be Echoing Truth or RR)

Note:  I don't run Merchant Scrolls.  I don't like them.  I find that they generally tap out mana killing your Leaks, and while they do find Stifle for your Dreadnought, you most likely won't be able to counter Flash, Duress, or some other gross disruption spell next turn.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter,

-Matt