That is indeed a vintage dream, but I don't see it as realistic.

I am sure of one thing; Wizards loves money! With the business revelation of Tarm Wizards has realized that printing a huge broken money card is sure to sell packs. And by making it mythic after promising mythics wont be staples it will sell more packs. Tarm, then Wallet Slayer angel in the same sets as lesser 5CC angels and now Jace. It's what I would do if I ran the company.

BUT, Wizards doesn't want to make the T2 formats to "cost driven" because then it will lower pack sales as players become disenchanted. I think it would be a good guess to say it is likely to help the artifact aspect of the set, but that sure wouldn't make enough money.

And since we know this mox has to be good but not toooo good (cast Jace on T2 good) my guess would be a mox which only produces mana for artifacts (since artifacts arn't to broken in legacy or T2) or some other drawback. Perhaps it will only exist while their are other artifacts on the board just like glimmer void.

In conclusion ... I just know it will be good, you must buy it.

pre reg!

The fact that this is a double header will bring people back into T1. My legacy team of 10 people who don't play vintage will most likely be stayin with me and probably goin to T1 for giggles.

P.S. since T1 got dumb just play legacy.

Also, Bill Copes, remind me to give you a free high five

Awesome having this on the same day as a huge legacy tourney and in the middle of everyone finals. I saw at least 10 vintage regulars including Brassman in RI.

Wish I coulda gone. congratulations to John Longo who split with someone playin fish. From what I hear it was 40% fish and 40% vault key, and 10% combo.

Please elaborate.

------------------------------
 isn't Dave Feinstein supposed to be hosting a legacy tourney at his store on this day?

WOW, nice inkwell thread with a splash of top! Seriously, this is one of the most complicated decks ever and everyone is talking about this crap? So I guess I'll have to ask real questions, to start discussion.

(Anyway, @ Smenenenenen)<--edit: I didn't mean to type this. I know he goes over some of these topics a bit but I feel they deserve more debate and discussion.

One thing I definitely find strange about this deck is that it has 9 counter (4 duress, 4 FOW, Misd) is this really necessary? I hate drawing a duress when I need either more gas or guns. I tend to draw hands with 2 duress and a force and I think to myself, WTF is this the fastest deck in the format? Are their really no better cards? Please discuss.

Also, other than ichorid/belcher do you ever bother with the needles in the side?

What is your usual remora plan?

Why not splash a color for more options? Wheel/ETW is amazing, orim's chant is good, and so's regrowth/ zantid swarm. Their are certainly enough good cards.

P. S.
Inkwell is better

I'm not at all surprised. I don't really care about thirst other than the fact that I own foils.

The only thing that concerns me is the crop rotation.

Benifited:
Stax
Ichorid

Shafted:
Blue everything

I'm sure standstill/Remora will bore a whole lot more people and I'm sure stax is now in the lead if good players actually play it, and will keep storm in check.

I suggest we say F this and just make vintage officially highlander. Why not? It'd be fun.

Why not just print more sets of portal if you want to make a game for idiots who can't handle a concept like the stack.
Then they can say they'll never ever make that new portal set legal, wait for their associates to buy up cards like imperial seal then make it legal and profit. It worked once.

Wizards doesn't give a crap about old players who like the game the way it is, the know these nerd cards are like crack and we'll keep buying them cause now its a habit. They just wanna get more little kids who can't understand how things like burn work to buy more packs and be more able to play with big kids. Why else would they switch to YuGiO terminology. F you WOTC. Thanks for watering down my game for your own profit.

This makes blue suck again since you can't stack and bounce which was one of my favorite things. Why not make blue for smart people and make red for morons who only wanna burn and swing without care.

The formats that are actually hurt by this is vintage and legacy. But since they don't make any money off those formats they don't care.
Wishes, stax decks, combo decks, mana drain, memory jar, and ect are what this jerks around.

Sorry for ranting. WOTC just boils my piss with how much they shit on us. If they were smart at all they would make money off us by actually catering to our needs, and helping our formats, but they are to aweful at business for that.

will there be deck lists?

Personaly I do not think this win condition is better than Tezz. It is the same number of mana with more intense colors, where you need to always have a counter in order to back up your win. Also, Tezz can be easily drained into.

The reason why I do think this is a good card for our format is because white hasn't had a decent win condition in a while. This card may open new doors to new archetypes and strategies that haven't been seen in a while.  White is my favorite sideboard color and I think the impact on the format will be a positive thing and not too powerful.

This makes me want to play again. Congratulations Bill. You are growing strong in the force.

why did you keep calling him David?

regardless congrats on killing oath with a creature deck. What turn do you win on usually?

The first paragraph is completely right by stating that ichorid has the consistency to guarantee game one, but for games two and three I don't agree that their is real interaction. You either know when to pop tormod's/relic or you don't, while you wait and see who draws better cards. Why wouldn't this deck be on the rise now that leyline is gone from the meta?!

I really wish WOT cared enough to listen more before the B&R list posting. If you lose to ichorid it's your own fault for not SBing 7-15 cards against them, but I really miss playing a format where I can use all 15 slots and not dedicate half to the least fun match ever.

It's easy, it's cheap, and you only need to get lucky enough to win game 2 or 3 post side. This is a perfect beginner deck as well.

Also now that Flash, Ponder, Bstorm are gone it is a lot harder to dig for the same amount of hate as we used to or to just win faster which means that we must mulligan more cause we know that we are on a 2-3 turn clock.

Are the red elemental blasts in the SB necessary for anything besides countering counters and making sure you don't lose cause someone countered your commandeer? (and yes, I know they hit tinker, Tezz,).

Do you bring them in against combo?

Will some one who has played this deck in tourney please explain?

would spell snare be a consideration since it's blue, most creatures are also 2CC and it is good against Oath.

$250 dollars worth of foils does not mean you just threw it together.  I knew you were gunna play it this week, cause the foils were calling to you.

I know you didn't netdeck, but it's not like netdecking is a bad thing at a weekly tournament. It's a way to get experience before tweaking the list into your own, and it's a way to give other players a feel for the matchup, plus with ichorid it doesn't make a world of difference. (yup, still complaining)

O I forgot to mention, I play every week

a while ago in our match you went turn one sol ring, key, Tvault GG

then 2 weeks ago someone welt mana vault, key, Tvault force back (I'm a noob for not having double force)

in that same tourney some one went dark rit necro force back



Personally I think they should set a new slower standard of no turn one wins. But if they're not going to do that this deck can be fun. More fun then Ich

Just play leyline

I play 4 to 5 round tourneys every week and crap like this happens to me at least three times a month minimum.


My point is WELCOME TO T1 we play busted!!!!    All I'm sayin is don't hate on flash cause it can do it too

Yes pact is the most busted card. put with leyline on the board it is just another dead card while searching for a bounce spell without any of the recent restrictions. Also it would be hilarious to watch them pact while you have a trickbind in hand.
Also chalice would be amazing set at 1 or 2 and would be a SB card against TPS and Oath as well, and if you're on the play ... you could possibly bring it in anyway.

I also don't agree with the SB slots make a win. I SBed 12 cards against Ich at my weekly vintage cause Ich always wins and I still lost to it.

Here are some points for discussion about flash and the upcoming B & R list:

1. Now that scroll, ponder, and Bstorm are gone the card should be reevaluated. With these diggers out it will force people to come up with new lists that involve a lil more finesse.

2. Without Bstorm to put back essential combo pieces and to hide the 2 card win from the swarm of duress effects running around I think the deck might be more fair.

3. People say that flash wasn't fun to play against, but we still have ichorid! I mean at least against flash you have a chance to win the first game and the chance to interact with the other player rather that watch someone tap a land their first turn and win turn two with your hand full of counters/duresses.     

3.1. Everyone sideboards 4-8 slots against Ichorid anyway so it's not like it will be anywhere near as good in comparison since CHALICE/duress/thought seize/force/drain/stifle/reb/spellsnare hurts the deck as well. I've heard it argued that Ichorid's existence alone has made decks like Gorger no longer viable by comparison due to the higher level of consistency in ichorid, and the amount of SB hate people pack in fear.

3.2. Perhaps the introduction of this deck will force Ich players in some meta to include more grave hate makeing them less potent and the Ich mirror more interesting.

4. Decks like TPS are just as if not much more(after the restrictions) explosive. The only difference is flash is easier to disrupt because of its narrow path to victory. 

5.Painter/Grindstone is a two card colorless combo that isn't susceptible to graveyard hate and that doesn't put up big numbers in T8.

6. Even when Flash was a deck their was never a month where the deck took more than a quarter of the T8 anyway. And much like Ichorid it is to inconsistent to get the winning spot consistently. 


Their is one argument I can think of to not unrestrict flash after Bstorm, Scroll, and ponder have got the hammer, the format seems to be slowing down a lil and becoming less explosive(except for TPS and Ich) and that's a good thing. Maybe the answer is to slow down the game more. Maybe that would be more interactive and fun.




Hey Smmenen,

Can you please use your substantial influence to get flash back? Also thanks for inspiring me to give this article a shot, maybe a high up will consider the points made in this thread.

This change has a huge impact on the Stax match up!

Before you sack things to smoke stack or tap them to tangle wire you might as well add the mana to your mana pool during your upkeep and then hope to draw a good instant after floating the mana, and then you wont even burn.

But if what the article says might happen below
This is a quote from the article

if they do get rid of this ability the stax match up will get tougher because you wont even have the option of hoping to use the mana off a good draw!

Some food for thought

Your attitude is disappointing!
 It's hard enough for everyone to get there on time with work or school ending at 5 and then having to drive an hour. But it would be just one more hassle for everyone and especially ELD. If you would like to come every Monday and volunteer your time to collect and type up deck lists, and wait till midnight to see who wins , then feel free and quit complaining. This is supposed to be a casual Monday it's not worth the typing.


We don't put in large amounts of work so that crybabys like you can benefit from my work collecting data on new ideas.


P.S. will you please post the deck list you plan to be playing at the TMD, I think it would be good for the community.

Verbal Warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting.  -DA

Can I get a meta game breakdown?

Who was there playing what?

Most importantly what's winning?



Also does anyone want to meet in Fall River MA, or RI to possibly carpool? I wanna go but driving an hour by myself is lame.

Sundering Nice Guy

If you were going to splash white (which I don't think is the right idea) what do you guys think of the following cards?

Balance

Enlightened tutor

ELD was on vacation with his family and Matt McSomethin was nowhere to be found so I ran the tourney in their absences. As always their were 14 people, we're always short of 16 for rankings so please bring more friends! 

First place was Barry (Sorry, edit) with Ichorid                           $39.2
2nd place wasNick V with WG zoo                                           $39.2
3rd place was Jennifer J. with something good                          $22.34
4th Place was JTL with (IDK I think it might have been Tezz)      $11.17

All and all, despite ELD not being their it was a smooth tourny with no problems. The top two split but played it out for pride with Ichorid winning again. PLEASE somebody needs to sideboard more against this silly machine, last time I played in this 4 round tourney I played against this boring deck rounds 1 and 2. (Grumble, hate that deck)

This was fun, I'm thinking of holding a tourney myself to get rid of my power this summer. Does anyone have tournament software I can barrow?

Thank you to everyone who played.  We're back to Scholar's next week. 


Louis Gentile (Sundering Nice Guy)

P.S. JTL pM me if you want those trops!

I am very excited as well! will march 1st or march 8th be the official start date??? Also have you considered allowing proxys to encourage a larger participation and level of competition? I'm not pro proxy or anything but I think it would double the amount of people who would go because not a lot of locals have the cards to be competitive.

Well I go regularly with 5 people who all want it to be at stillpoint, also it's nice to have actual singles to choose from.

I heart you Rock. I actualy think you're the most innovative successful person in this format.

what did you take out against me?

Against Tezz what do you take out?  Trikes?

A very assumptive and conditional argument. It do not think that the free entry fee will have any foreseeable impact on how many players will actually come. The only people we know will be guaranteed to be persuaded to come due to the policy change are the ones deriving the benefit. Magic players are not the most social of animals.

My argument was one of principle. If Ray wanted to convince people to travel more he should just offer discounts for the driver of 3+ people from any state not within three states. (or something similar/comparable). That I would feel would be more fair, because everybody wins that way.

I don't think a $50 incentive will  convince them to come this far anyway. If they're gunna come they're gunna come. They should add to my prize support like everyone else. Fellow players who actually contribute by paying please speak up!

So I should pay $50 and they shouldn't because........ ?

I don't even want to play against them. Their not "Pros"! Their just the best of the people who own power and are willing to travel. I feel like I'm at a disadvantage because I'd rather sell my power than spend $5000, then book a hotel, then have Wizards change the location, then have to play scrub decks that aren't powered until T8.
T8ing at worlds isn't even hard (I know I'm gunna get flamed for this), because their are so few people who actually own power. I remember seeing a list that didn't run jet because he didn't own one and he still T8ed.


Last but not least we shouldn't encourage Steve M. to come, I don't think anyone will be able to fit in the store with Steve M.'s ego.   
... JK ....


also I prereg

This was the second tourny I've been to where someone first turn key timevaults me to death ...... good times.

We also only ran one copy of gush because it was an awesome merchant scroll target when  merchant scroll was unrestricted.
 
Congrats!


P. s. this deck needs more street wraith