Fair enough Bram.  Like I said I didn't necessarily think they were gonna be the new thing, I was just wondering if anyone had tried them out.  I liked the idea that they punished people instead of hindering them.

The only reason I lol'ed is because within 3 minutes of posting my first post on TMD in a while, it was moved to the Newbie forum, sorry if it sounded disrespectful.

Care to explain lol?

I'm just wonderin if these cards could be employed.  Just becuase the word 'Sligh' was in my post doesn't mean this should go to the newbie forum lol.

There are two cards actually that I see a lot of promise in.

[card]Ancient Runes[/card] and [card]Citadel of Pain[/card]

Ancient Runes seems the more promising I think.  Against some decks this can be a great clock to SB in.  Decks like Sligh would have more use for this but I just want to talk about the card in general.  Null Rod is great at stopping people using their artifacts, but this punishes people for using them.  Think Boil vs Scald.  I'm not saying this is better than Rod, but I do like it.

Citadel of Pain.  I don't know about this.  Some games it seems people always leave their mana open and use it all at the end of your turn.  Others it seems they use it all every turn.  If nothing this hurts people who like to leave mana open for reactionary spells.  I think it's a TAD expensive at 3cc for what it does, but I'm not sure.

Please discuss.

Like I have stated before, if the opponent shuffles sufficiently then all you need to do is make a cut or two to make sure they didn't sneek ancestral to the top.

The problem arrives when you see an opponent begin to pile shuffle, which as has been stated can easily stack a deck even if unintentionally.  In this case I normally riffle shuffle my opponents cards, gently and you CAN riffle shuffle without damaging cards, it's just not a good idea as you have to be really good and nobodies perfect so mistakes can occur.  

Generally I think that a 'shuffling' agreement should be added to the rules of mtg to explain how to shuffle apart from just "sufficiently randomize."  I you can work out a system that is not to time consuming and does not allow for any for any stacking then this would be great.  I can't think if a certain method however that can entirely prevent stacking, but I'm sure that a few exist.

For those of you quoting me and saying that a single cut won't un-stack a deck, I say der.  If you read my whole post you would see that I mentioned this was all assuming I saw my opponent shuffle sufficiently.  It doesn't need to unstack a deck, just prevent them from drawing that lotus they may have snuck near the top.  If you do not shuffle I will riffle your cards.

And yes it's quite easy to riffle shuffle sleeved cards, toploaders however are a different matter lol.

Firstly I completely agree with klown.  That said I take 'shuffling' as more than two cuts.  Before ANY game whether test, tourney, or otherwise I will always shuffle my deck sufficiently then put my deck down.  As soon as my opponent has finished shuffling his/her deck I will slide my deck across the table to them and ask for theirs.  I will then cut their deck once or twice (just depending on however many times my hands feel like doing it lol,) then slide theirs back.  My opponents normally looks at me like; "Why are we swapping decks..." then after seeing what I do they normally do the exact same and the game gets underway.  Playing with friends is even better as they know what to do.

I mean no disrespect in doing this and actually invite people to cut my deck.  If however they pile shuffle my cards I take offense, and if the riffle shuffle I WILL hurt them.  Fact of the matter is that no matter how someone stacks a deck, a cut or two can easily prevent their god-hand, albiet it not as well as riffling would, but it is effective enough.  There are people who cheat and I don't ever want to be called a cheat, which is why I always cut my opponents decks and invite them to cut mine.  If someone watches me shuffle, then they do more than cut my deck, that is just downright rude.  You are either insulting me or wasting my time.

This is all of course assuming my opponent actually shuffled their deck, or else I will riffle the shit out of their cards to scare them.  I can actually riffle well and won't damage the cards, but they get scared and remember to shuffle proficiently from there on.

I haven't exactly sold myself on Curiosity yet but it does keep getting bettter and better.  In all matchups it is just THAT powerful when it hits.  I really do want to put Scrolls in but the deck seems to work better without TD'ing them.  With all the draw I don't really want to get a Scroll over burn.  If Scroll goes in I think it will take out Curiosity, so I believe it's left for those two to fight it out in the pit for the slots.

Brainstorm is usually used by myslef to shuffle away lands or move creatures around for a good draw.  It can also easily protect my hand against early Duress/Hymn/Unmask.  B'Storming my Pillar to the top of my library to prevent it being Duressed is so tech!  My opponents don't like Blue in Sligh .

The creature base is what I think is the hardest to decide on.  Utility vs 2/1's is not an easy contest.  With all the aggro-ish decks coming back I really am finding Pups/Cadets less and less favourable.  Even against control they now have decre to cycle early.  Whether or not I should dump all of them I don't know, but they are definatly up for review.

Wasp's deck is not really Sligh though, but more of a lockdown type deck.  There is nothing wrong with this but this thread is about just adding blue to bring draw and superior creatures.  On that note has anyone else tried Brainstorm in Sligh, because GODDAM I LOVE THIS CARD!

On the note of Isochron Scepter it is not to great unless you use a LOT of great 2cc spells.  It would be best in a deck with PoP and Artifact Mutation.  The problem is that decks with these types of cards want to use them as instants for the surprise effects and Scepter just doesn't let you do that.  I think including SoLoMoxen will be great but until some 'better' cards for this in Sligh come out this idea will not be strong enough.

With that What creature base do you guys think works better;

1)
4xPup
4xCadets
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGrim Lavamancer

A)With Curiosity
B)Without Curiosity

2)
4xPup
4xCadets/Mogg Fantic?
4xCloud of Faeries
4xGrim Lavamancer

A)With Curiosity
B)Without Curiosity

3)
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGrim Lavamancer
4xRazorfin Hunter
4xCloud of Faeries

A)With Curiosity
B)Without Curiosity

So give answers like '3B' or something like that.  Testing goes on.

I definatly want to stay away from counters or for that matter anything that is not damage or draw.  The great thing about the 'Tims' are that although they appear slower in control they manage to easily set a quick clock and when Decree hits it hurts NOWHERE near as badly.  Decree is actually like a dead card, (ok it cycles) but really is annoying when they are starting at Timmy's .  This deck also has just such a better macthup against any oth3er creature based decks.  Razorfin Hunter is by far the most controversial at the moment as a 2cc 1/1 is starting to get slower, but with the added Mox and CoF it is a lot easier.  I do want to bring Pups back in over him... further testing will tell.  Brainstorm is almost better than Bolt  :shock: (lol, the irony - the face for disbelief that follows the word 'Bolt' is 'shock').  Anywho draw is godlike in Sligh.  Will continue testing.

The point is Null Rod is infinitely better for R/G decks and it pretty much HAS to go in.  It doesn't allow sword to be useful at all.  Add to this it's extremely slow speed, being an artifact in the heavy art-hate era, being a mana drain target, being inconsistently useful, ebing a Timewalk if countered, and being a terrible TD in R/G... I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole outside of tog mirror.

This is the deck I have currently been playtesting;

4xMogg Fanatic
4xGrim Lavamancer
4xCloud of Faeries
4xRazorfin Hunter

4xCuriosity
4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall
1xTime Walk

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xIncinerate
2xFireblast

3xBloodstained Mire
3xWooded Foothills
4xVolcanic Island
1xMox Ruby
1xMox Sapphire
8xMountain

SB
4xNull Rod
4xPyrostatic Pillar
4xRack and Ruin
3xMeekstone

The only bad matchups this has really had were TnT and Combo, which is what sligh does not so great anyways.  It looks a lot slower than it is apeasring as a Tim deck, but I can vouch for its speed.  Whilst it is a bit slower than normal Sligh it can easily function and operate at a high speed whilst laying down more threats.  I do want to fit Cursed Scrolls in an they may go back and replace Curiosity.  For now though this is what I have been testing.  This deck can easily wreck other aggro which was was of Slighs weakest points bar TnT, and it doesn't have such a bad matchup there either.  The added drawing and continual dmg the creatures are able to pull outeven mid game ensures you will always be doing dmg.  Brainstorm is SO good in Sligh.  It has just done so many amazing things already I can't believe people haven't been testing it.  Well I mean in Aggro.  It is so much  more than 'Fireblast now'.  I have shuffled away opening hand landfills and Blasts many a time.  I have changed TD Mountains into Bolts and Pulled Curiosity+some creature up way before their due date.  

I was once unlucky enough to draw a hand with 3 land, Mox Sapphire, Brainstorm, Bolt, Curiosity.  I didn't mulliganing (being the do-not-mulligan person that I am) in hope that I could Brainstorm shuffling away two land.  I went first, dropped Sapphire, Fetch.  Cast Brainstorm with Sapphire, drew into Mox Ruby, CoF, Grim.  Put two land on my library.  Fetch V.I. putting it into play, shuffling away my lands.  Dropped Mox Ruby, CoF, Curiosity, Grim.  Smiled and passed back the turn with only Bolt in hand.  Needless to say I go on from there with insane drawing and so much fuel for my mancer he was dead turn 3 or 4.  This obviously is not going to happen all the time but with this mana curve stuff like this does happen often.  The idea of this deck is that all cards are useful ALL THE TIME, with the only exception being Curiosity because there are so many creatures it works well with it's almost never dead and its gain, so far, seems to far outweigh its loss.

I am not advocating them yet, but I think you all underestimate Cloud of Faeries and Curiosity.  A free 1/1 on the second turn is soooo good in Sligh.  Add to that it's 'unblockable' the whole game through and isn't a bad TD later.  It often does the damage of a Lightning Bolt if not more for 0cc which helps with Scrolling, and combined with Curiosity is just unbelievable.  On that note Curiosity is easily good enough with two creatures.

The problem with AK's is exactly THAT I will run into them.  The first one cycles and the second one is +1 CA.  Four mana for one card is not good.  I shouldn't be running into the third or fourth so they don't help.  I also won't get the benifit of my oppponents as I will be most likely first to play mine as I try to race them.  They will then get the benifit of mine.  AK's are definatly a no-no.

The only thing I fear with Curiosity is StP and Fire/Ice.  Whilst these may be enough to prevent me from using it because they are quite popular, that's about it.  Creature enchantments are nowhere near as bad as they used to be.  People used to pack sufficient creature hate and so Echantments would lose 2f1.  Thesedays however people have to deal with many more problems other than creatures.  Mainly Combo, Graveyards and Draw.

Ancestral and Time Walk which are definatly in.  The only other cards I'm considering now are Curiosity and Brainstorm.

Ask a control player what Brainstorm does.  It does NOT just make them get counters.  It gets them an awesome hand.  By itself it is like a tutor in Sligh.  In Sligh roughly 1/3 your deck is land, 1/3 creatures, 1/3 Burn.  Brainstorm lets your draw three, which is often one of each of these, and then you can choose which you want now and what order you want to draw the next two in.  If it gets more draw even better.  Also combined with Fetchlands these 'tutors' become cantripping tutors.  After the first few turns drawing 3 cards only to return 1 and a Mountain then shuffling them away is really efficient.  All this for U.  I want to run 8 fetches which may be overkill.  Perhaps only 4-6.  Needs testing.

Curiosity is just really broken if you can get it on CoF or Grim or an early beatdown creature.  Against aggro it can make you draw all the burn you need to win if on Grim or CoF.  Against combo Ucc doesn't really slow you down for the added burn you will draw to speed you up.  Perhaps get to that Pyrostatic Pillar faster.  Against control it is what wins games.  They have a hard enough time going 1f1 let alone you trying to out draw them.  Curiosity on CoF is enough CA to outdraw all but the best of combo decks.

CoF is still a VERY good option.  Think of it as Mogg Fanatic that late game you don't have to sac and it can deal one damage a turn.  Who plays flying blockers thesedays???  It cannot take out things like Welders unlike Fanatic, but it has enough advantages in being a free card to cast.  First turn Pup followed by CoF Bolt blocker Brainstorm is great especially when followed by a next turn Curiostiy.

Heck yeah Team Bolt lives on!  Sometimes you gotta let a 19 page thread die but that doesn't mean you stop playing magic, you take what you learnt and... start a new thread.

Too many of you are missing my point.  The reason splashing always fails is because you splash to solve a problem at the cost of some efficiency.  The only thing that is almost as consistent as all damage, is all damage and draw.  THE ONLY CARDS I AM ADDING WITH BLUE ARE CARDS THAT ARE NON-SITUATIONAL DRAW, OR A SUPERIOR THREAT TO A PREVIOUS ONE.

With that I am not using Browbeat, or any other card that is not purely draw or damage.  I'll post more later.

I have thought of using Goblins instead and find that it is far superior when you manage to draw a lackey in your opening hand.  The problem is when you don't draw one and end up worse than normal Sligh.

I do think that Standstill is inferior to Curiosity IF AND ONLY IF you're running CoF and Grim's.  Otherwise Curiosity can easily be a dead draw late game which is exactly what we are trying to prevent.  Curiosity can be cast on Pups/Cadets but in the mirror or against any other aggro it often can't.  Also the logic on Standstill is flawed.  You play it as soon as you have board control which is very early.  Turn 2-3 is optimal.  There is no reason not to run 4 and Ancestral doesn't replace one, it's a different card.

Since when was 5 dmg for 2R bad?  It's no Bolt and is a Mana Drain target, but unlike Ball Lightning it doesn't cost RRR.  Even if it isn't good it's not because it's overcosted, give a beter reason.

Current cards questioned:
Cloud of Fairies
Curiosity
Browbeat
Standstill
Razorfin Hunter

What Redman addressed is exactly what I was trying to establish in my first post.  This deck will only be splashing Draw.  That's it.  I don't want to add counters or control or anything like that unless it ties in exactly with Sligh's theme.  This is why I am not running Sceptre's, Stifle, Daze, Force Spike etc.

Cards that I can't believe I forgot about;
[card]Browbeat[/card]
Expensive, but fits very nicely with the theme of the deck.  I am aware of the argument that choice cards suck because the oppponent will always choose what is best for them at the time.  In this deck however, They will always 'lose' to it as there will be no bad choice really.  It's like trying to div up a godlike Fact or Fiction.

[card]Curiosity[/card]
Although it can gain card disadvantage it really can gain MONSTER card advantage for Sligh.  Coupled with CoF or Mancer this can really cause trouble for the opponent.

[card]Electric Eel[/card]
RR activation cost... can we suport that?

I realise others and myself have tried numerous times to splash in Sligh and failed.  I am not really trying to add a colour as much as I am tryting to add drawing.  Any comments on which cards are/are not suitable is greatly appreciated.

Well I've done a lot of pondering about competitive Sligh in Type 1 and come to some conclusions.  Firstly splashing white, black or green won't work until the colour pie gets drastically changed.  All these colours may bring something to help Sligh in T1 but they all cause it to lose consistency.  Rancor is great, but can be dead.  Oxidize can kill naughts, but can be dead.  Duress are AWESOME, but can be dead.  There are MANY things that help Sligh, but can be dead.  There are only two things that are not dead in Sligh;

1. Damage
2. Draw when all you have is damage.

Mono-Red Sligh is all about damage.  The problem is that it is pretty much the same in T1 and T1.5 bar adding 1xMox Ruby.  If Sligh wants to be competitive in a T1 meta it needs to gain a LOT more out of being able to use restricted cards.  I have seen and made many a version of Sligh with land destruction, pump, hand disruption, and several others but they all have their flaws.  The idea of this thread is to see how much we can improve mono-red Sligh in competitive Type 1 without it losing consistency.  So with that we only add cards that draw more cards OR improve the cards we have at a reasonable cost OR can replace the damage cards we currently have.  Such cards I'm thinking about are;

[card]Ancestral Recall[/card]
Well der.  If I have to explain this to you then please leave the thread now.

[card]Timewalk[/card]
Although some people have been debating it's usefulness as of late claiming that it is simply a cycler, in Sligh it is UNBELIEVABLE.  It lets you creatures attack or use their abilities twice and gives you the mana to activate a scroll late game or empty your hand more.  All without even using up a card.  Even if it only lets my Pup attack once more, I would still use a card that read "1U - Sorcery: Deal 2 dmg to target player, draw a card".

[card]Standstill[/card]
Yes I know what Fish and Landstill are.  I was wondering if we could tweak this in Sligh to basically be Ancestral #2-5.  When under a SS and facing some creatures and/or Grim's 'n Scrolls, this can net you serious card advantage.

[card]Cloud of the Fairies[/card]
Is this worth it?  I dunno.  I've done some testing and when combined with Timewalk or SS it it pretty affective.  The question is though is a 1/1 enough?  It wouldn't replace Pups/Cadets because they are a necessary threat especially with SS, but they aren't dead late game as flying is practically non-existent in T1, and allow you to still Scroll.  Perhaps better than Mogg Fanatic?

That's about it.  Which brings me to the main problem of the deck.  Pretty much the ONLY problem.  Sligh is designed so most cards are Rcc.  It doesn't like off colour mana AT ALL.  This means that if you splash a colour in Sligh it has to be prety much a divide not a splash.  In short, we need more blue cards.  The problem of course is that there is and probably will never be anything even close to 1-2cc that lets you draw more than one card.  This leans then to dmg which blue, the worst at dmg competes with red, which is the best at dmg.  So other blue cards are wanted... any suggestions?

P.S.  Why don't wizards print a Red Savannah Lions?!  Seriously I HIGHLY doubt that it would distort ANY format.  Can red get a non-drawback Cadets plz?

R
Creature - Goblin
2/1
"It's about time."

As was stated earlier Sligh is not played at a high level well because the majority of Sligh players are not really competitive or experienced.  For Feanor, if you don't want to play serious T1 fine, but I for one am glad that this is out of the Newbie forum where we had to justify the use of PoP and the like.

Sligh is played because Bolts are cool.

I will always be an aggro player at heart and red is my favourite colour in magic.  Sligh fits that perfectly as my pet deck.  That doesn't mean I don't play other decks on the side *Keeper is making a comeback booyah!*.

Also I haven't had much time to test RL lately, but have been using Fanatics more over Cadets.  I guess it really is a meta call, I guess I'll stick with the Cadets as competition is tight round here.  OM is holding up, but much more testing is required.

Lol!

Whilst testing continues for OM, I put forward the question of Mogg Fantastics or Goblin Cadets?  I have always been a strong advocater of the Cadets as you really do need 8x2/1, but Fantastics are so Fanatic... I mean, yeh, you know what I mean.  So Cadets or Fantastics?

Since WHEN did I disregard intelligent work that was done in the past???  Can you like, not put words in my mouth?  And there is a big difference between knowing that Shivan Dragon is crap in T1 and knowing that Stifle is good.  Some cards are plain obvious, others aren't.  I quoted your entire post not to be obnoxious but because I replied to the whole thing and not a section.  Also those other cards (bar Mogg Fantastic as I love him,) would be no where near as good as OM, or even a Mountain for that matter in Sligh.  We made clear explanations of this over the course of the thread.

And that drudge skeletons example is the definition of arrogance.



That in itself, is arrogant.  Whether you be right or wrong.

I'm not going to continue wasting my time trying to defend Overmaster to you or any other of my choices.   We have already covered these in the previous pages of the thread.  I'm not holding anything against you as I don't hold grudges and do not wish to start a flame war over a card that just 'might' be worth using.  If you don't want to use it fine, but please do not continue to put it down without testing it.


With that, the testing is going great.  The card just keeps getting better and better.

Ok first up this will clear up a lot of stuff.  Smash and Goth are completely right that any burn spell we would take out is better than OM.  That would be if I was putting OM in a burn spells place though...

I was considering doing something more like this;
4xJackal Pup
4xGoblin Cadets
4xGorilla Shaman
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xIncinerate
4xPoP

3xFireblast
3xCursed Scroll
4xOvermaster

17xMounatin
1xMox Ruby

SB
4xScald
4xRnR/Meekstone
4xPyrostatic Pillar
3xPyrokinesis/Meekstone

So no more debates on why drawing Chain Lighting would be better.

IMPORTANT:
I am also aware of the Newbish cry of "You haven't tested it."  There is also however the Newbish cry of "I don't need to test it." Smmenen has had a plethora of idea's that were shut down at first along with many, many, many other people.  Then these idea's went on to change the face of the T1 metagame.  I'm not saying this is a game-revolutionising card, just an idea that's worth looking into.  'New' cards DO NEED TESTING.  It's not like Wastelands or Pups because they have been tested for years.  On that note when Pup immeadiatly came out nobody knew how good they were.  When Wastelands originally came out nobody knew how strong they would be come.  Who honestly thought that Strip Mine would be banned?  Who knew the power of the Power 9?  Who knew that Yawg Will would become Yawg Win?  Duals?  Painlands?  I could go on forever.  It's a bloody stupid argument to say that you don't need to test a card that hasn't been tested.  When intelligent people knock back a deck idea or card selection it's because it HAS been tested before.  I serioulsy doubt OM has, so leave the arrogance at home.

As for the comment that OM "is horrible vs anything but control" that just shows that you haven't tested.  IF YOU HAD you would have found out as I did that it very raely makes a difference at all.  The only time I ever actually minded it was when I drew a mediocre opening hand with it and wasn't sure whether to mull.  That was a small % of the time and seeing as though OM's are going in for basically lands I would've mulled anyway, so I didn't really lose anything, just gain the option to 'roll the dice.'

Who plays Chill anymore??????????????????

Like I said I never stated this as the "saviour of Sligh" just a card choice.  Ohh and yeh, as much as I respect Legend, the amount of sheep that just say "I wish Legend was here because >insert lame excuse<" is beginning to sicken me.  On a side note I bet you a Black Lotus that Legend would test a card he hasn't played with.  Think for yourselves and test new cards.

For Feanor;

Assuming you mean Sonic Burst, it's crap because you would rather play Volcanic Hammers. It can turn your Mounatins or creatures into 1 more dmg late game, but that's a condition.

Reckless Abandon is pretty much the same as the above.

Goblin Grenade is again smae as above, plus it's to hard to find a goblin in non-gobbo Sligh. Conditional cards really do hurt Sligh.

Shrapnel Blast works well with Ankh Sligh that runs Scrolls and Mox, but traditional Sligh with Blasts is just better.

Flame Rift would be an excellent card that I used for quite a while. It falls short because as much as I thought it wouldn't, the four dmg taken is too much. It hurts than much against other aggro it isn't funny, let alone the mirror. I drew about 50 games with it that I could have won if it was a Shock.

I agree with Goth that the burn is excellent. The future of Sligh is in the creature base. We need a card that is Goblin Cadets + Mogg Fanatic. "R, Goblin, 2/1, sac: deal one dmg to any target." I can dream can't I?

DON'T DOUBLE POST.  FEAR THIS AND TREMBLINGLY OBEY.[/b]

You obviously have not tested the card and are assuming these things.  

Firstly I have MANY a time got a Keeper player down to 2 or 1 only for him to then gain total control and beat be silly.  I have had more than my fare share of Fireblasts Mis D'ed back at me, and enough FoW's to make a grown man cry.  The fact of the matter is Sligh can often run out of speed.  Yet again why Scroll and Grikm are so important, but you can't base your game just around them (or CAN you?  We did it for Pillar and Ankh lol =P.)

Overmaster lets you get any last burn spell through.  40% of my deck is BURN, 33.3% is LAND.  I ain't gonna run more than 20 land+mox in Sligh, and I may go down to 18.  So it cantripping is not as useless as you think.  Also since when was this compared to the godly Duress?  Guess what, Lightning Bolt is better than Chain Lightning.  Now lets all say Chain Lightning is crap... I'm not even gonna bother saying why that comparison is stupid.  The reason why this card is great is because it IS a Duress at it's opportune time for R instead of B, and early on cantrips as Lavamancer fodder OR goes for a counter anyway.  If I have Bolt and OM and I've been relentlessly attacking you, then you see me cast OM with you at 8, you get scared and think I have PoP.  You WILL counter it, even if you call my 'bluff' I get another card and I just got a Bolt for RR which isn't actually bad at all.  I'd play a card that read "RR, Instant, Deal 3 dmg to any target"... ohh wait, Incinerate is in there.  There is no loss in the situation only much to gain.

On the note that cantripping isnt as good as a card.  You have to look at the long run.  If you cantrip into a Mountain, you didn't necessarily draw the Mountain, as you would have got it next turn anyway.  What you actually 'gain' is every draw one turn in advance of where it is supposed to be, with an additional card at the end.  If you didn't run OM you would get exactly the same draws at the same speed and same amount of cards.  All OM does is cost R which I HIGHLY doubt is ever a problem.  It hasn't been so far for me.

I am not trying to sound rude so if it comes out that way I apoligize in advance.  I'm just saying when a card that is not already a staple is introduced into any deck, people will immeadiatly start bashing it instead of testing it first.  People said Mis D would never replace FoW.  It didn't, but it saw a very large amount of play in CONJUCTION with FoW.

The number one reason for running OM is that I have always thought that Duress would be an excellent addition to Sligh, if only it wasn't a dead card sometimes.  In the mirror, and against many other decks it is a POOR TD.  OM does what we want Duress to do, but Cantrips at the same time AND can cycle early.  Seriously test the card.  The only 'drawback' this card has is if there are not enough decks in your area that is effective against, but seeing as though this is T1, I suspect you all see your fare share of counters.

ReB doesn't cantrip making it an inferior Duress that is dead even more often.  Not being able to cantrip when a conditional card is dead is what makes them crap.  Duress is infinetly better than ReB's and I wouldn't run Duress if it was red because of the reasoning of it being a dead draw often.  ReB's ONLY good thing is that it can kill a tog which is commendable, but I ain't using Maze of Ith just because of one deck.

Yeh I'm surprised like you Gothmog as to what metagame makes Cadets better, but like we established already, Pups are better easily and Cadets are just better for Feanor alone.

As for OM you're looking at it the wrong way.  It is there to make sure your Fireblast or PoP resolves, which can be the 'be all and end all' of a Control matchup for Sligh.  Having a Fireblast Drained or FoW is just a biatch and DON'T say like why would you Blast if they might be in a situation to counter or somethin, cuase fact of the matter is when you are facing 10 1/1's you don't have a choice.  We aren't saying OM is "The new Lightning Bolt" or anything like that, but simply that it seems to be a excellent card that is extremely underrated and worth some testing.  It just so happens to be a bonus that5 it is a cantrip early and later on, goes for the low-low price of R, and can alos work with Bolt's and Chain's.

Lol I'm on.  In future don't give advice if people asked for it if it's not needed, just say that "Miners are key" or somethin .

Dam Andro beat me to it .  OVERMASTER IS NOT A TERRIBLE CARD ROFL!  Anyone who says OM sucks is a really bad Sligh player, or very sleep-deprived (Feanor I'm hoping it was the end of a long day or somethin.)  

It gains Tempo if countered, and if countered it still makes your next spell 'uncounterable'.  It's EXTREMLY rare that an opponent had the mana and cards to double Drain (and you'd be stupid for doing this with UUUU open anyway,) or UU for Drain AND FoW AND be above 1 life AND have a blue card to pitch, in which case you still dealt one dmg and gained 1 CA.  They are pretty much ALWAYS just better of letting Overmaster go.  In which case it cantrips and loses you R tempo, which at the time it's used I highly doubt matters and hence still loses you no tempo or card quality.  If it didn't cantrip on resolving it would be jank, but this changes everything.  

Also it's an incredible TD as it cycles for R when you need it to.  You'd probably be better off though leaving it your hand UNTIL YOU DRAW a finisher which is THEN when you play it.  Hell even if it is countered AND your PoP is countered too, you may draw a Bolt/Chain/Rate/Blast!  Any of these would probably finish the job at this point in the game.  You never just use this then hope to draw the finisher, unless you're just cycling it.

Not to mention that whether used for it's ability or 'cycled' it still provides mancer fodder.  This card is not a SB answer and Scald is better.  I was thinkin of this card MAINDECKED!  Even with matchups that don't have counters it cycles for R and gives mancer fodder, which is crucial in matchups because if a deck has no counters it probably has some creatures you will want to shoot down or go over.  If this card doesn't at ALL work MD, then I will still consider it SB.  Sligh has problems finishing the game against the likes of Keeper and Tog, and this baby is the bomb.  The thing that really makes this card great is the 'cycling for R'.  With 4 mancers even in matches when this card is dead it isn't to bad.  It's hard to find cards that are ALWAYS useful.

Lastly, yes my motto is "If it doesn't kill your oppenent don't use it" but this has exclusions from just dmg.
Rack and Ruin - It DOES kill them because it lets you creatures attack/lands untap to cast bolts/whatever.
Blood Moon - It DOES kill them because they can't do anything for the rest of the game.
Null Rod - Ditto.
Overmaster - This one's the most obvious as it DOES let you do dmg you otherwise couldn't do. All the while cantripping!  It makes your PoP read "This card must be countered twice".
Even if I don't use all these cards they are all contenders because they DO kill your opponent .

Good luck with your green.  My R/G Beats wants to make a comeback but I don't know if it's better than Sligh right now...

PoP is obviously jank in Red Lockdown.  So is WoF.  WoF is terrible in any deck that can't win off it.  It also happens to be especially bad here because it gives your oppenents back the land you destroyed.  ReB's are also crap because they are a reactive single colour SB answer and the blue match is already WAY in your favour.  Ports are also completly crap in T1 and way too slow and why the HELL would you want to replace Dwarven Miner! Sligh is definatly not your area man...

I still love Overmaster though .  I just don't know if it's worth the room.  It definatly doesn't make the cut in Red Lockdown, but in Sligh it doesn't net you -CA and makes your final PoP uncounterable, or Fireblast or whatever.  I have been testing Overmaster thoroughly.

ROFL, I knew I'd cop the heat on Rings =P.  Yeh they suck and I hate 'em.  As I said a few pages back they are just on the list to test.  I am well aware of their numerous horrible synergies.  It's just a light little test to cope with the extra dmg you don't get from Ankh now.  Mountains will replace if testing fails.  Mishra's are never going to make it, as the have the same problem caused by Ankh/Wastes.  But yeh I gotta test a bit.

@ Andro -
On the note of Red Lockdown SB'n, I would never take out Pillage in the matchups you mentioned.  Although it seems logical at first to replace it with the 'better' version (RnR or BM) after SB'n, I'd rathere just keep it in and take out Chains or somethin.  I think I'm startin to sway on Vandals in RL, but Fanatics help that much more and with Kinesis you actually have good chances of beating aggro post SB.  Most importantly I can't BA|ELIEVE I forgot about Pillar in my Sligh SB.  How the hell did I miss that, I WAS THE ONE WHO MENTIONED IT!  *smacks head* So Slighes SB is now exploding with contenders.  Who will make the Final 15?  I have no F'n clue right now...

Let the testing commence!... erm... continue!

First up I would like to say I'm going to have to steal that name Andro .  We have officially invented Red Lockdown.  Also I only chose Fanatics over Vandals becaus ethe deck really only has problems against aggro.  But I am no where near decided on this, as I made that decklist up in thge time it tok me to post it.  Not bad for a first draft eh?  I was thinking about SB Null Rods and/or Bllod Moon seeing as this is no longer Sligh but Red Lockdown.

Sligh is stronger than Goblins, it was just a phase that swept through T1.  Now with Trinisphere back on top, Slighes alternate path to victory, Scroll, and the rest are tops.  Sligh has always found its power in consistency, one of thge most important lessons I've ever learnt in MtG taught to me by Newager .

Jackal Pups are definatly better than Cadets, only Feanor disagrees and that's because of his meta whihch he admits.

I have come to the conclusion that there can be no middle ground. I am not trying to take over the thread here and if you wish to continue to talk about middle ground decks of Sligh fine, but to be T1 competitive you really have to go one way.

So now it's just which way to go.  We have Sligh (The real deal) and then we have Red Lockdown.  I think Red Lockdown is obviously weak against Aggro and Slighs weakness is obviously combo.  So now we must work to improving these matchups.  Which is better only time will tell.  For now I will post my current decklists.

Sligh
4xJackal Pup
4xGoblin Cadets
4xGorilla Shaman
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xCursed Scroll

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xIncinerate
4xPrice of Progress
4xFireblast

4xBarbarian Ring
16xMountain

SB:
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin
4xMeltdown
3xPyrokinesis

Thoughts on Sligh: Barbarian Rings vs Mountains.  Fireblast and PoP to 3 each?  What to replace in those two slots?  Fanatics or Cadets?  Cadets better but Fanatics help Aggro matchups and fuel Grim and are better TD AND help Rings.

Red Lockdown
4xGorilla Shaman
4xMogg Fanatic

4xAnkh of Mishra
4xPyrostatic Pillar

4xDwarven Miner
4xPillage

4xCursed Scroll
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning

4xWasteland
1xStrip Mine
1xMox Ruby
14xMountain

SB:
4xMeekstone
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin
3xPyrokinesis

Heh, now you can all see what my head has been exploding about over the last few days.  Few queries though;

@ gbj -
I'm not being rude in saying this ok?  I already posted the reason why Feanor is wrong;



Mancer IS better than Fanatic, this is not my opinion it's just dam obvious, 99% of people out there agree.  It also serves a different purpose to Scoll, so don't compare them, and neither EVER should be dropped first turn.

On that note I do agree with you on the Fanatics as replacements for Pups.  This is one of the key points I've been going over.  If we go towards Land D Ankh, Then a first turn Pup or Cadets is crap as we are going to drop Ankh or Pillar next turn and so the Pup won't be able to get through.  We still don't want to drop Grim first cause we can't activate it next turn, so we are left with Monkey.



Your logic is flawed here as early on a 2 power is a MUCH bigger difference than a 1.  Yes you may be winning but it's the start of the game and the purpose of those creatures is to get as much dmg through as possible before the ground game stalls out, not to be utility.  What you should have said is what I am considering, that they won't be able to get through if you're looking to drop an Ankh or Pillar second turn.  So this means we need a replacement for Cadets as well.

Seeing as though we know control is already a good match with Ankhs IF we were to go the Ankh way (note that I am not advocating either I am simply saying this as a suggestion,) then I guess the deck would look something like this;

4xGorilla Shaman
4xMogg Fanatic

4xAnkh of Mishra
4xPyrostatic Pillar

4xPillage
4xDwarven Miner

4xGrim Lavamancer
4xCursed Scroll

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning

4xWastelands
1xStrip Mine
1xMox Ruby
14xMountain

SB:
4xMeekstone
3xPyrokinesis
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin

One last thing.  Andro said that the Wastes are too strong to cut in normal Sligh.  I'm undecided on this.  As good as they are, they slow Sligh down considerably.  You wouldn't want to Waste first turn as you are dropping a creature, and second turn you want to bolt blocker and drop utility creature and attack, so third turn is the soonest and even then you normally don't have mana free, and third turn lan D isn't to effective as control already has developed board and combo is set to go off.  Even then and after it interferes with Scrolling where you wish it was just a permanent mana source.  Rings would be better but are still pretty shit.  Especially in the mirror.

There was already a stupid thread just like this one.  Can mod's please close these and PM the thread starters a link to the old one?