White Trash did not need more powerful 3 drop hatebears (of which Vryn is still suspect compared to other options) to become more powerful. It needs another solid 1 drop to back up Dryad Militant.

Hopefully coming soon 

"Vintage Playable only"

What an interesting concept when the article talking about it's design never once mentions vintage or a vintage strategy. It's interesting how you see it as targetting you or specific things when there isn't really anything to back that up.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ld/hate-bears-commander-2014-10-31

Edit: Also if you read that article it points out that the current crew at Wizards LIKES these hatebears so expect more of them in the future!

Your post reeks of complaining and I don't even really understand why.

1) Broken strategies are inherently stronger than hate strategies.
2) There are people who like playing with these types of decks, they should be given a bone once in a while as well.
3) Plenty of interesting board states happen when these hate decks go up against the broken decks. It causes interesting complex interactions and board states that wouldn't exist otherwise. If you disagree with me here, then you probably just haven't played against enough hate decks to encounter those interactions.

Edit: What's REALLY interesting is that when blue "hate pieces" get printed there's no outrage at all. I just looked through the Notion Thief thread and there's no complaining about stupid card design despite it obviously being a hate against broken things card. Interesting to see.

In the end, its probably significantly better in UW control decks over hate decks anyway. It gives them a flash body to beat down with that helps them beat broken strategies. I can see the "Dance Magic Dance" decks wanting this in the SB as well as UW angels / Bomberman. Its more likely to make an impact there than it is in hate decks anyway.

Well Death & Taxes already had a very good Sneak and Show matchup. Running Mangara, Karakas, and Revokers all in the main will do that for you Especially when they can all come in off Show N Tell as well.

------------------------

I think that this card is alright for what it does. I agree with other posters that it's likely worse than Grafdigger's Cage, but adding another hatebear never hurts. Eventually WOTC is bound to print enough hatebears that it could become a consistent deck in Vintage. This isn't what mono white needed to be strong, but it helps a lot.

Mono white really needs a solid 1 drop bear to pair up with Dryad Militant. That's what I'm really waiting for.

Haven't played magic in a long time due to moving and a new job that I'm still getting used to, but I'm super excited for this event. Pre registered and already scheduled for time off and everything. Can't wait for an exciting weekend!

This list looks great Tom.

My only question when looking things over is weather Time Walk is actually necessary. I see you stated that Time Walk is strong with Planeswalkers, which it obviously is, but it seems mostly like win more at that point. I've always found Time Walk to be basically an explore whenever I've played landstill which made me think its not worth it more often than not.

Of course you play a lot less lands than I'd ever dare to try and I don't actually know if nitpicking like that is necessary. My only suggestion would be to add more lands probably in place of that Time Walk, but you've obviously had success with your build.

I would also tend to agree with Lance where it seems like Bolt is too useful in setting up a clear board for standstill without it. Was this ever a big issue?

That makes sense, especially with your suite of hatebears. Things like Prophetic Firespeaker seem to help to close out games so you don't need to overextend as much as I'm used to doing. List looks good and fun!

Great article Rob! Very enjoyable read.

I like the list Josh, as Ive become really dissatisfied with mono W, I keep thinking that RW would be solid for Vintage hate for the future. This and Lance's Plateau deck look like solid starting points at RW.


Your list looks a little light on land disruption, Has that been a problem? I've found that creature decks need to aggressively mess with their opponents mana because Toxic Deluge is always a blow out. Running three Strip effects seems quite low.

Great Event. Lots of fun, thanks for running it Nick!

Also congrats to Greg!

Toxic Deluge will kill most little dudes while leaving your big ones like Goyf fine.

Sounds like Joel could have forced a phantasmal image copying restoration angel through by tapping down blockers with Merrow Reejereys.

I would completely agree. If this is a deck designed to beat creature decks, then keeping a stable mana base is the most important thing I can think of. This deck actually looks unbeatable for many of the more recent hate bear decks.

I've considered the parfait engine of Landtax + scroll rack in White trash before, but it ultimately seemed clunky and losing out on stony silence seemed like a huge deal just to add that. Dropping scroll rack and just landtax and diamond to smooth out the mana is interesting. In my Experience Leonin Arbiter is a very strong card and it does have quite a bit of a nonbo when it comes to Landtax.

I guess I'll have to look for the article as a starting point and see if it's something worth expanding on.

Nope.

Edit: Totally misunderstood. You mean that if you cast it, they can also vote for something that they want to destroy. In that case it's a two for one which  still seems fine most of the time.

I don't really understand why Flamespeaker is in the list. It has anti synergy with Thalia and Lodestone and so many high cmc spells. Otherwise it looks fun.

I don't like spirit guides in this type of deck. It's always living off the top and I never want to add dead draws to the deck. It's why I don't run all the moxen even at proxy tournaments, they make the deck less reliable and add more dead draws.

I play path because it's hard to deal more than 20 damage with 2/2 dudes. It has solid synergy with arbiter and mindcensor and ghost quarter as well, but it's mostly because of the life race. If I was playing a deck with bigger hatebears I'd be playing Swords.

I haven't considered Horizon canopy, that could be strong. It's something I'll have to look into.

I tried student at the tourney there's 2 of them in the list. It's alright, I just don't feel like it's good enough. Dryad Militant is the best 1 drop hatebear in mono W, Student is probably third. I'd play with Judge's Familiar next time.

He lost to delvers all day. Which is kinda funny considering it's supposed to be a strong matchup for him.

Gottshall would Sygg River cutthroat be any good as a source of CA? It seems cute, but I don't know if it's powerful enough.

Got 9th in the NYSE qualifier at bloomsburg today with the following list. Admittedly its significantly less impressive than the last time, but its not horrific.

3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Dryad Militant
2 Student of Warfare
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
2 serenity
3 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rest in peace

Match 1 was vs Fastbond Gush / Doomsday combo I think?

These were fun games, I lost game 1 in a close game after my opponent's deck kind of petered out on him and I had a slow start. Game 2 my opponent scooped because I could play both Stoneforge Mystic and Thalia turn 1, which was too much for him to easily handle. Game 3 was long but fun, Rest in Peace and SOBM did serious work.

Unfortunately after this match it Shawn pointed out to me I had a deck register error. I accidentally put down 4 Mikokoro instead of 1. Oooops. I earned myself a game loss in the next match for being bad at writing.

Match 2 vs Metalworker mud.

I started off with a game loss from round 1. The matchup is pretty poor pre board and I quickly lost after a turn 1 metalworker got out of hand to quickly for me. This definitely would have been better after board, but I still dunno how solid of a matchup it would be.

Match 3 vs Espresso Shops
I win game 1 because my opponent isn't able to drop any significant threats and I got a timely Relic-Warder for his smokestack. Game 2 I was mostly able to waste my opponent to oblivion and without many relevant threats on his side to hold off my little 2/2 beaters.

Match 4 vs UR Delver
I lose game 1 and didn't draw many white sources. It wasn't much of a game to be honest. Game 2 I win in the end, but its very close and a lot of it is due to my opponent not having many threats. Game three i failed to find white sources and my opponents two delvers and a young pyromancer made very short work of me.

This is the second time UR delver has done well to beat me. It doesn't feel like a bad matchup, but if i fall behind it's very difficult to come back. I may mess around a bit to see if there's a better gameplan than what i've been doing.

Match 5 vs Grixis goodstuff.
I win game 1 because anti search bears are strong. Lose game 2 after not finding white sources. Win game 3 because i had a lotus on the play. I didn't find any white sources aside from a cavern, but my strong turn 1 of dual leonin arbiters was enough to carry me through to the end.

I ended up 9th missing out on top 8 due to tie breakers. All my opponents were fun to play with and it was a solid day overall.

Some thoughts after the tournament:

Mono W hatebears is competitive provided you can reasonably guess the meta. They may be lame kitties, but they're deceptively powerful, especially vs the greedy decks. If someone is looking for a budget deck and doesn't mind this type of playstyle I'd recommend it. However it can be frustrating to play because the lack of CA and general feeling that most other players in the room are doing more powerful things than you are. I happen to really enjoy this type of deck, which I think is a big reason why I've done alright with it.

Mikokoro, while an awesome card, is not what this deck wants. There's very few scenarios where it's online in this deck and even fewer where it's online with a Spirit of the Labyrinth. It was a good experiment, but It's not needed or wanted.

Spirit is amazing, it's relevant in every matchup.

The deck is greedy and wants more white sources. I haven't seem to have found the sweet spot yet for enough to reliably hit W, but not flood out. I had to ghost quarter myself twice today to try and find white at the last minute and that was the worst feeling ever. I don't want to cut any strip effects if possible because the land denial and anti search is such a strong reason to play this deck.  

I still haven't found a white hate bear to drop on turn 1 aside from Dryad Militant that I'm happy with. Judges familiar is close, but not quite good enough. Student was rarely relevant. Icatian Javelineers doesn't seem to do enough. Mother of Runes isn't relevant enough in vintage either. Next on my list is Gideon's Lawkeeper, but I'm skeptical.

This is also probably the last time i play with the deck in a tournament for a bit, I miss drawing cards so I'll probably play blue next time I'm at vintage. Hopefully some others can pick up mono W and have some success with it.

My schedule has changed, so I think I'll be there. I'll also try to get the PSU guys to go as well.

Yes, I got a little sloppy it seems. Putting pearl here and forgetting the Strip.


I think pro blue is relevant because of merfolk and and getting through trinket mages and other dudes. Ultimately the sword you use is going to be a meta call for what you expect to find. I expected BUG and Junk hatebears and Merfolk to be relevant decks in the tournament.


Unlike different hate decks in the null rod section, the mono white deck has almost no CA at all. Success with the deck relies on being able to guess what type of meta you expect, knowing what hands you need to mull away, and getting lucky. I did a pretty good job of guessing what things would be like and I got lucky. I think it's a good list to start if someone wanted to get into vintage on a budget, and i enjoy playing with these types of decks.

Spirit is very strong. It's good against blue decks and trades with almost anything that isn't named Goyf. It's not going to radically change vintage, but it's a strong option for hate decks. I also am extremely intrigued by the idea of of using it with Mikokoro Center of the Sea to get some card draw. This deck needs a form of CA badly and that is an option worth considering. It's seen some play in Junk Hatebears and it might be worth attempting in mono white.


Most people who are running Abrupt Decay will just use it on the sword itself. I imagine that could lead to some blowouts as a strong combat trick. The protection from green is relevant against goyf and other dudes. I expected Junk Hatebears to be around as it's a strong deck at the moment. That's the main reason I ran body and mind at all, although it did prove to be strong in other matchups.

Sword of Light and Shadow is something I hadn't given much thought to mostly because it doesn't give protection vs commonly played creatures in vintage. Stoneforge and equipment mostly come in against creature decks, and I believe that Body and Mind and Fire and Ice are some of the better swords in those matchups. In general though, if you manage to equip a creature and are swinging in, you're in a very good position anyway, so Light and Shadow could still win games.  

Thanks! I made an error when writing up that list, it's only 59 cards. There is a Strip Mine in there as well, I'm very big on mana denial here.

I actually really like ghost quarter in the deck. Aside from synergy with Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter, it can be very relevant with Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor.

So I played this list to a top 4 at TDG's 51 person event the other day. I figured I'd post it here as it's a pretty budget list for vintage and some people might be interested just because of that alone.

4 Dryad Militant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 lotus petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Opal
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
1 Abolish

The deck is metagamed to face blue decks, combo decks, and creature decks. It's pretty weak to shops. However shops isn't really around right now.

I cannot express how important I think a stoneforge package out of the board is. It's very strong against a wealth of decks. It can replace the stony silence and the arbiters most of the time. Sword of Body and Mind was pretty strong as well. Mill and the body are relevant and pro green and blue is strong. Sword of Fire and Ice would have been very strong as well in the tournament. I'd run both over Umezawa's Jitte.

Unfortunately not, I'm graduating then.

Fixed it for you buddy.

I had a lot of fun. It was my first time playing Vintage since January, I'll have to find more time in my schedule to come out to more events.

Any chance you could post the list. I'd love to see what lists are starting to look like with spirit of the labrynth.

When first getting into the format I borrowed a shops deck and we played some practice games.

Things were going ok. I wasn't making too many poor misplays and even though many of the cards weren't in English, I had a decent enough idea of what each card did.

Except for tapping the Japanese trinisphere to my own tanglewire. I then proceeded to lose the game next turn like a chump.

I'm finally done with school, so provided I wake up early enough I'll be there.

Every single vintage tournament in the states I have ever heard of aside from eternal weekend allows proxies (usually around 10) so I highly suggest building whatever is most fun for you.

You'll get there eventually with power if you stick at it.

My mistake. You are certainly right there's no efficient ways to deal with creatures at all, especially nothing recent. Arguments are certainly stronger when you just completely ignore evidence to the contrary.