thx. That's too bad, but not unexpected.
I'm coming back to MTG after a long boardgame stint, and finding te imbalance which is the core of MTG a little off putting these days. Maybe I'll look ito making a cube or something.
thx for your reply.

I want to put a box togther of all the old theme decks .. i think it will be pretty solid for travel and such with the family.

Just a question: Are all the old theme decks relatively the same level of power/success? IE: will any theme deck vs any theme deck bring out a pretty even challenged game?

I do realize that may be hard to answer, but I just think how equally bad some of them are constructed (ie: 1 off cards, no 4 offs, super high casting costs at times).

Man 0-3 sucks.. so sorry about the horrible day at the tourney.

I must echo GUnit though...and what I've found trying to play 4c Landstill the last couple of weeks...it's wa-ay too many colours for my feedle mind to wrap around. I find I'm getting killed by Wastes and off colour screw.

I'm an advocate of two, maybe three colour Landstill...I'm working on the BUG Landstill for legacy right now...pernicous deed being the only reason why, because that card is killer...but all in all, 4 colours is way too delicate (for my play style) (I guess)

take it easy.
-ketch

I may be clueless for the most part...but what's with the "snow covered" swamp business?
I relaly like where SS evolved too..it seemed like all that talk back way when about MD SoFI or Jittes tunred into nix erayo! and go for the throat.
very cool
congrats

Hey..I'm Tony. I figured I'd get on this sooner or later.
I've actually been reading TMD for years (since Mirrordin). Checking out the Primers and such.

I totally suck at this game, but have a good time playing it..I'd say I'm a mid-range player...as every tourney I go to..I always end up 3-3. I'm on MWS sometimes. I mostly play vintage and some legacy. If I had more time I'd play T2...but let's face the facts...I'm an old dude! I'm 31, married to a beautiful wife, have an awesome house in Toronto ON Canada..and I work as a photographer full time.

I also have a comedy troupe called The Imponderables. I love comedy, comic books, retro video games, and like to screw around with proxies and altered cards when I have time on my hands.

If you see me on MWS..let's play!

that is solid Dante. I'm still learning much here..and I was curious what you side out in this matchup? the bounces? The fire/ice? CoW for sure.
When do you know to side out things like Lotus and Timewalk?

thx in advance. Posters on this site have really taught me alot.

not to threadjack but...

I used to play SS alot. I can see it rolling over to Flash and GAT (or just about nay other creature deck) but "any other combo?"
Wasn't SS built to roll combo?

Just a little confused here.

Yes, he drew the 3 cards, not me! (it has something to do with the "if you do" clause on Standstill...because it doesn't automatically sacrifice itself..
So what happened was I had Standstill on the board, he played Dark Ritual, I FoW'd it before sac'ing Standstill to draw 3 cards...so *my* FoW triggered Standstill and *he* drew the 3 cards. This is what lost me the game (my opponent even admitted this).
So in short...if you have standstill in play.. DON'T FORGET that YOU HAVE STANDSTILL IN PLAY

In this match though...I got completely outplayed. He was playing GrimLong (I believe that's what it was..a tendrils storm deck using Grim Tutor)..he combo'd off in g1...fine...so g2 I side in the 4 CoTV...and I figure I'd side out my 4 bounce spells. He won the second game Tinker-DSC! I didn't see that coming! And I had no bounce to save myself from it.

Is that a common SB strategy for combo players? Because I thought I had sideboarded correctly.

edit: Rereading the thread I just figured one thing out: vs combo, the correct SB Strategy would be:
+4 CotV
+3 REB
- 4 Fire//Ice
- 1 CoW (my list only runs 1)
- 1 Timewalk(?)
- 1 (Chain of Vapour?)

does that make sense?


Still learning,

--
Ketchupgun

Thanks for the post shockwave. I learned a lot from it. Though, did I miss the part about improving the goblin matchup?

I would think the Goblins matchup strategy is that since they don't run a draw engine, you just have to make them run out of gas before they control the board (?)

I thought the same, until my opponent called for a judge ruling. Then after talking to shockwave and goobafish, they both confirmed that's how that error resolves.

I personally am going to be playing this deck with a bit more dedication in the upcoming months. I'm generally too flighty of a person and all to eager to switch decks...but I'm making a promise to myself to stick with this one. So expect to see me on more threads re: Landstill

I had a similar day yesterday at Untouchables in Mississauga, Canada!

Though I think your deck is UR, not UG landstill 

I too got rolled to Vial Goblins and Ichorid. I was talking to shockwave and as he puts it, just take the auto-loss vs Ichorid. You'd have to butcher your SB entirely to help that match, but it isn't worth it.

I learned a BA-AD play error yesterday too. Playing vs Grim Long. I had Standstill on the board and he cast Dark Ritual...I instinctively FoW it...not sac'ing Standstill first.. this caused my opponent to draw 3 cards. NOTE TO SELF: don't do that again! if I have standstill in play I may just keep my hand facedown to remind myself.

as for the sideboard:
Rack n Ruin over Shattering Spree. defintely.
CotV at 1 helps vs the combo match. between having a null rod, a cotv @ 0 and cotv @1 .. they won't be playing any Rituals, moxes or tapping moxes in play for mana.
I tried some Nevynyrral's disk in the SB...easy to cast off drain mana, and can clear the board vs fish, goblins and stax...but I never got to use it...theory is it should work though

btw..Lorwyn just came out with a SWEET replacement for Threads of Disloyalty!

that's my mid-ranged (3 wins 3 losses) 2 cents! ;D

I think you're 100% right.

we we're considering him as a SB slot in Landstill in place of Threads...but I was shocked to see it was a wizard...but yeah, the casting cost is high. In landstill, at least you're running drains to pay for it.

But hey...my other two suggestions didn't suck! (aven and stormscape) 

Hey

look who's a wizard!

Sower of Temptation from Lorwyn!

sorta like Threads, Drake, CM, Magus..and he flies and is unaffected by Thorn!

Sideboard slot?

Going UW sounds like a crazy good idea.

You also get Aven Mindcensor (a wizard no less) and Stormscape apprentice (who is a wizard as well)...can he replace the bouncers? I wonder. (and to a lesser extent, Azorius Guildmage)

Also..if you go UWB route...then we get Bob....and Duress!

that's alot of useful wizards.

good work kobefan...keep it up.

I've subbed in a single spell snare for my missing mana drain before...but I wouldn't use them in replacement of the whole lot..ever.
Daze doesn't help this deck at all..for the same reason mana leak won't work..once games get into turn 356 (!)...you need the hard counters. "Unless you pay.." means very little.

If I can derail this thread slightly, let's talk about UR Landstill.
I was looking at URBana Fish discussion, and the use of maindeck Control Magic.
Has anyone ever tried that in Landstill.

I played around with them in a scruby meta and found them useful. I was never SOL to cast them, running 25 mana sources. I was stealing DSCs, Rectors, and all sorts of weenies all day. they were just as good as any other removal or bounce, I found.

Also, URBana plays MD REBs....REBs and CMs..is that not a very narrow choice? And if it works for URBana, why not in Landstill?

Ok..

Mana Drain is not an arguement here. Shockwave has demonstrated this many times...It's is a neccessary evil in the deck because it is a Hard Counter...and more often than not, you won't be mana bruring, instead sinking the mana into manland activations..which are a nice boost. Also easily casts crucible or even null rod.

Just this weekend, draining a FoF, and then using all that mana to activate manlands to attack and playing a Standstill, all for essentially paying U.

The reason I posted 3 Drains and 1 Counterspell, I was I was psoting this deck non proxied/unpowered..and that's what I own..missing the fourth drain. big whoop!

With all that said, playing this deck sucks. It was a decent idea, but essentially, the trasonformational sideboard is crap...Oath without orchard is just wrong. The Hidden Gibbons are doing their job...boosting the clock up a bit, but really, Landstill is all about playing slow...and those cards just take up slots that could be used for more countermagic...instead of faster clocks.

To me, Landstill is played by removing all your opponent's gas, then start beating with the manlands...gg.

I've had this idea for a deck, which I'm gonna test out this weekend at a non-powered, rather casual tournament.

It comes from thinking that Hidden Gibbons can complement Standstill in Landstill, speeding up the clock. Yes, UR is superior due to the SB choices available..but I'm planning to have some fun with this and see where it goes. Landstill is primarily U Control...so my thinking is a Green splash may be an accelerated alternative....I doubt this deck would hold up in a powered/proxied environment .. but I'd love to see some critics.

The sideboard is still in the works, but I wonder if a transformational Oath SB would work? I've never played transformational before. Any ideas anyone?

I wish I had more results to post, but this is not been tested really..I just sorta came up with the list finally, and wanna see if anyone sees  any glaring oversights on my part.

THE LIST (my non-proxied list that is)

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
3 Misdirection (maybe 2?)
4 Stifle

3 Brainstorm (maybe 4?)
4 Standstill

3 Chain of Vapour (maybe -1, +1 rushing river?)
1 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod

3 Hidden Gibbons
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth
3 Life from the Loam

1 Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Fairie Conclave
4 Tropical Island
4 Fetchs
2 Island
______

3 Annul
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Blazing Archon
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Oath of Druids

I think it was Guillaume (?)
not sure.


that still doesn't explain if these "girls" are hot.


As for the match in question, I agree with gooba. I'd have prefered (I'm sure my opponent as well) if someone would have spoke up because both players missed it...the gamestate, if I recall had 3 cutpurses on my side of the table and a newly flipped erayo...I think we were both concentrating on the cutpurse/erayo lock and the fact he only had 3 Mindcencors in his hand in his hand.. it was pretty much GG at that point.

Just like gooba's example about the ringleader stifle...if it went to the grave, it would have continued the game wrongly. And what good does that do.

a la prochaine!

Salute Les Gars! (Or however you dudes spell it in Que.)


As gooba mentioned, I wouldn't intentionally cheat..i just suck at this game.

I'm sorry about that play error....and yes, if someone would have mentioned it, that would have been an end to that.

- Just like the time I played brainstorm against Mike and forgot to put two cards back.
- Or my famous game loss against Yames drawing off Ninja before StP resolves...oh the good times had by all !!!
- or my embarrassing match against Rich Matiuzzo awhile ago where I would Confidant, Draw, then put a counter on AetherVial .. Rich let it pass but let me know what I was doing is wrong.

what can I say..
"Je Suis desolies!"

(What I was trying to do there was just play a fourth spell that turn in order to flipp erayo, be it the stifle on my own Cutpurse or on your Korlis...know what I mean? But I got confused).

Just like I tried to Threads Christ's Serendib....I gotta read these cards more often.

btw, I also learned soemthing at this tourney...if you have a cutpurse, flipped erayo and a bob in play, and you opponent plays a tangle wire...don't respond with Chain of Vapour...Hurkyl's recall is a MUCH BETTER option!!!


Oh, and Pac...sarcasm is not a lost art, it is just near impossible on The Internet...let alone to people who's first language is not engllish...Communication Breakdown baby (And that's a professional comedian telling you!

quebec dudes, come down more often..you're a solid bunch, and made the tourney that much more exciting. Lany, it was an honour trading you one of my original proxies!

This may be a skewed direction, but take what you want from it..I played an unpowered meta with a modified URBana build (ie: Aether vials in place of moxen), then revamped it as such, basically taking parts of WTF, SS and URBana and combining them...this may spark some interest, or at least give someone with better playskills than myself something to test further and consider.

4 Dark Confidants
4 Dimir Cutpurse
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Waterfront Bouncers (i could see these being tossed for Negators..see below)
2 Withered Wretch

2 Jitte
3 Aether Vial
3 CotV
2 Sensei Top

3 Remand
2 Daze
4 FoW
2 Duress

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 moxlotus
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
5 blue Fetches
1 Island
1 Sol Ring

SB
2 Kira Glass Spinner ( flip with jittes every game 2?) dunno)
2 Red Blst
2 Blue Blst
2 Arcane Lab (anti combo, & control)
2 Diabolic Edicts (anti-oath, aggro)
1 Energy Flux (anti stax)
1 Annul (ani-oath, stax)
3 Rack n Ruin (anti stax)hydrhydroblast


Basically, I didn't like ninja and changed it for Cutpurse (as cutpurse does more, hurts less off a reveal, though is one turn slower). Further thinking got me on a train of thought considering Negator....both in the deck have 3cc, so a vial @3 would be doubly beneficial, and really speed the clock up...but many argue Vial is too slow in vintage.

I'm in the camp of using a spell snare or two. I've been testing it...but sometimes I just think, in more competitive metas, why not just main deck REB/Pryoblast (if splashing red).

A card I've begun testing is Shadow of Doubt. It's great for stopping fetchlands and all the tutors running around, let alone gifts, intution....+ the cantrip!

The idea comes from playing Sullivan Solution.
I haven't been hindered by the UUcc as we're already equipped to play ManaDrain.

Has anyone else tested this card?

I would make an arguement for EE, blowing up tokens (esp ETW) (which albeit Echoing Truth handles) but also all of your oppoents moxen (though they would theortectially still get one tap out of them). EE @0,1,2 (as are the limited colours here) take care of plenty in Vintage...(ie: oaths, bobs, welders, moxen, erayos, jittes just to name a few off the top of my head)

Now mind you, running Nev Disk+ManaDrain does that and more, only slower.

What ever happened to Powder Keg? It seemed to me it was on the outs as I was getting into magic.

I've always held back and waited for the broken cards, not the accelerant.

Though, I think it depends on what your opponent is playing...it's almost like semi-blind Meddling Mage guesses. (If no blue mana was played, FoWing th lotus seems like a good general rule..I'll try that out)

From memory, I recall a match in a semi-scrubby meta, where someone playing a WW deck cracked lotus turn one, I let it reslove, and was immediately put on a clock, facing 2 Lions and Isamuru. Needless to say they made short work of me. (Oh, and it was a Topdeck btw!! 

In my expereince with Landstill (Shockwave is so right when he stated Ninja of the Deep is awful). UR is a hit. in the obove list, What about Chain of Vapour? It's completely asymetrical in Landstill, and when mixed with Echoing Truth gives us alot of anyswers (IE: bouncing the ever painful CoTV@2)

Last I played this deck, the Mana Drains were there to get the Disks out...but if the current meta doesn't require such a RESET, then there is no need to run Disk, and thus Mana Drain seems excessive (to the point of potential mana burn)...why not just run Counterspell? or Snare? And run Engineered Explosives (instead of the 2 Shamaan)

In regards to transformational SB Oath...I would agree that UG landstill would be subpar to UR, but as temtping as transformational seems, it seems we would only be turning the deck into a half-ass Oath deck...anyone else feel that way?

Question I have here...do you think maindeck 3 Null Rods and 4 CotV would be overkill?
In my experience with URBanaFish, Shaman and CotV were pretty sweet...but I can't help but think running rod and chalice (sans gorilla) would be benfecial.

Does Tinker/DSC/Mystical have a spot in the SB? I wonder.

I just wanted to say that is such an awesome claim. Well done. (ShockWave, it's been a pleasure everytime I've paired up against you at a tourney, and congrats on that Beta Recall).

In regards to Ninja. That's too bad it's tested poorly. I would think with 6 manlands it would be a cinch to work in (URBana relys on 4 gorillas for the earliest ninja).

How important is the NevDisk/ManaDrain in the present meta? With bounce and EE, i'd think board control was covered

If you remove the two disks..then you don't really need the Mana Drains right?
Chain of Vapour has always been a fav of mine in Landstill...what about running EE (despite there is limited colour counters here -- 0,1,2 counters are still nailing ALOT of things in vintage..and this gets around the ETW...just as I wouldn't hesitate to run Echoing Truth). In place of the Drains, what about Daze/Tef'sResponse?

Also...it occurred to me that Ninja of Deep Hours would get around your own standstill, and would kick some ass as an online draw engine by turn 2, only to replay a manland in its exhange, non? (maybe swap bstorms and DoJ in there somehow?

(w/ changes to the above list)

4xTundra
2xFlooded Strand
2xPolluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
2x Island
1x Plains

4x Meddling Mage
4x Ninja

4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timewalk

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Mana Leak
2x Stifle
3x Swords to Plowshare
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Balance
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x EE
1x Echoing Truth
1x Misdirection ??

What do you guys think of that?
I think Nullrod and/or CotV need a place here as well (MD/SB)

Also, why do people shy away from Cloud of Faeries? Faeries, Faeries, Standstill was always a favourite play of mine in UR Fish back way when.

Sincerely,
Noobie McNoobiePants 

yes, one red source for 2 1/2 cards. I know.
I figure it can't hurt. Seek just seems so0o0o good right now.

we could easily go 2 plateau 3 Scrubland and run the lavamancers and even mox monkey....+ ReBs and R&Rs in SB...?

ok...so I've alwasy had a soft spot for white weenie. I came into playing UR fish many moons ago, loved it at the time! Eventually, UW fish was developed, and for some reason, i just hated it...maybe it was the art on meddling mage, who knows, but it spurred me to get started on something in the same vein...white weenie + Disruption.

Trading blue counters for black discard, we came up with a great BW Fish, that split a local tourney.
Then Hide/Seek came out. So in the vein of URBana Fish....we now have a slew of efficient utlity creatures/weenies and some great threat removal, before it hits the table.


BWR Fish

Mana 23
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswpet Heath
2 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Creatures 20
4 Samurai, Pale Curtain
1 Kataki
3 True Believer
3 Javlineers
4 Dark Confidant
3 Glowrider
2 Mesmeric Fiend

Draw/stuff 2
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric

Disruption 15
3 Null Rod
4 Duress
2 Cabal Theapry
2 Hide/Seek
4 StP



SB 15
4 Seal of cleansing
1 Aura of Silence
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Planar Void
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sacred Ground
2 Worship)

What do you guys think? Consider a fully powered, IT, Gifts, CS, Oath, meta.

(Consider that Jotun Grunt 4/4 for 1W with built in GY hate when Cold Snap comes out....!)

What do you guys think of the deck?

I used to play UR fish. I found Rootwater thief awesome...I still use him in my fun little 2 headed giant legacy tournaments.

I played around with Seasinger, though it never got the play time it deserved for adequate condemnation or praise.
Also, there is a deck around here that uses maindeck Old Man of The Sea..i believe people call it OFM...it's kinda fishy.

Last time I played this matchup, between rootwater and SB annuls (and stalling green mana), I won.

btw...chain of vapour (when I was playing this deck as landstill seemed like a good idea) but in the end, it's just better to get those creatures out of that deck...and jester's cap is too slow for fish.