True I am more worried about Medeling Mage. Somtimes after Fish kills your land with wasteland and gets a little control over the board and you cant go off as fast as you would like. When that happens the Grunt is a savage beater and is much to be feared indeed. The fact that he cant be killed with Massacre makes him even more of a threat then say Dandân.

Yes. As a combo player I can tell you the Grunt is one of my bigest fears. Not even Massacre will kill him. It hoses Yawg's Will wich is a key combo piece as well as posing a major threat.

Yes of course Stax and Fish are big problems for this deck. When drawing 7 cards with the power draw cards (Wheel of fortune, Tinker-> Memory Jar etc.) I have no problem with discarding half my hand for mana. Mana is needed to go off quickly, wich is the best bet with this deck.

Ya your probably right Massacre is better.

Sure how about -2 tendrils +2 duress? *FIXED. I was also considering Lighting Bolt now that im splashing red because fish is one of the toghest match ups and if not killing medeling mages It could be used to push that little bit of damage through if your storm count was to low. Well mabie for sideboard.

So, now that we have Elvish Spirit Guide in red storm decks have more acces to Wheel of Fortune and Empty the Warrens. I would like to include Empty the Warrens as an alternative storm win due to Wizards introducing a meta game changing Extirpate. Unforntinitly alot of the utility cards had to be pushed to one-ofs due to the 4-of inclusion of Simian Spirit Guide.

mana 35
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 Badlands
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide

tutor 6
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 demonic consultation

draw 10
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 wheel of fortune
1 windfall
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence

utility 6
1 repeal
3 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 3
2 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens

What if you dont have enough cards in your graveyard though? what if you just played Timetwister? What if you just played Yawgmoths Will for that matter? Or just too low on life? It's nice to have another option. I really think this card is what Pitch Long needed beacuse it felt like the deck needed more draw.

Lucky for us pitch long plays like 10 lands.

I think you guys are underestimating this card. getting tons of mana usually isn’t a problem for me in pitch long. I play 31 mana sources in my deck, including rituals and artifacts that accelerate mana. That’s over half the deck. The problem I usually run into is running out of steam on the drawing front. Recycle in black IS a big difference. Because most of the mana you get in this deck is black.

Well... it’s almost like Future Sight for black, so I could see this going into a Pitch Long deck. I could definitely see this card winning games. I would probably only run 1 though. Not sure if it will make the cut. Mabie if it was a less to cast. Of course Bargain is better we know that, this card would be in addition to that.

I am not really worried about my opponent drawing disruption. I tossed the Wheel because I wasn’t getting red mana consistently enough and I don’t know if it’s worth switching to city of brass and Forbidden Orchards just for that one card.
The wheel is definitely better then Night's Whisper. Its +6 CA compared to +1 CA. night's whisper is the plan B draw card. It just happens to go well in this deck because it’s black (on color) and fairly cheap. I don’t care about losing life when I play this deck when I am going to win that turn anyways.

Well Im not going to tell you what to do with your deck I will just show you my version. People told me to move my deck to this thread because it wasn’t "Pitch Long" because it doesn’t use Force of Will. But I will say this; it wins turn 2 a good 70% of the time. I modified it slightly since I last posted because people were saying I needed more disruption, so -1 nights whisper +1 duress. Also although Wheel of Fortune is a great card for this deck but decided its not worth splashing red for it. It’s just too hard to get red mana sometimes. So I replaced that with Demonic consultation.


here is my list

mana 31
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

tutor 6
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 demonic consultation

draw 12
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 windfall
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
3 night's whisper

utility 7
2 repeal
3 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 4
4 tendrils of agony

I really like night's whisper after trying it in my deck. Getting black mana sources is the easiest thing to get in the deck. Also after tutoring with a tutor that puts it on top of your library it's good to be able to draw it that turn and not have to wait. Repeal is great for that reason. Plus mox sapphire and repeal are more than broken. I often find myself tutoring for a sapphire if I am holding two repeals.

I prefer to put Memory Jar in that slot. 5 mana for the hard-cast let it have double usage (in other words Darksteel in your hand sucks). Your entire deck is built around Tendrils.
On the other hand, if you’re getting Extracted or Jestered, then I can definitely see running Darksteel for a slot. He definitely is a great win condition.

@netherspirit: You know, Yawgmoth has another invention that’s restricted. 

ok thanks I will.

   I like running duress over Force of Will in this deck for a few reasons. One, it stops Trickbind. Two, after I use it, I can Yawgmoth's Will it out of my graveyard again. In general it helps add to my storm count. I realize Force of Will can be a very necessary card in Vintage but as stated above you should be running lots of blue to warrant its inclusion. It definitely has advantages a first turn trinispheare can be devastating against this deck. But after weighing out the pros and cons, for this specific build, I prefer duress.
   About the Brainstorms. Nights whisper has basically taken the place of the Brainstorms and Grim Tutors in this deck. Usually, when playing this deck, one floats many black mana from the rituals. Blue mana should be saved for large draw cards like Timetwister. Try 4 Nights Whisper, its simply fantastic in this deck. I would rather have more random cards then tutoring for specific cards. Every card in the deck is usfull. Brainstorm is great, I just prefer having extra cards that I can play from my hand.
   In addition, I have 5 disruption spells (2 Duress, 2 Repeal, 1 Hurkyl's recall.). Now here is the area where I admit my deck may need work. I have done far more goldfishing then tough match ups. But the simple fact that this deck frequently goes off turn 2 Is in a way disruption in itself. Your opponent must prepare specifically for this deck. If you go first and go off turn two, there is a good chance your opponent will have one land out or will not be able to play a drain. That leaves Stifle, Force of Will and Misdirection and this deck runs duress. After shuffling though this deck a couple times I almost always find a Duress, so Stifle usually isn’t a problem.

1really? well guess what 2ive been working with this deck for some time now and have tested it 3alot. so i really dont think its fair to say it has lack of content. this is the 4most tight ass stuck up website i have seen in my life. dont you guys have somthing better to do?


Despite DA's helpful suggestion to you that you read the rules, you have clearly not done so. Otherwise you would have realized that arguing with moderator actions in a thread like this is strictly prohibited. Further, your attempts to use the English language have not improved at all.

1. Capital letters are required for the first letter of each sentence, and for the first person nominative singular pronoun "I."
2. A contraction, such as "can't," must use an apostrophe to separate the two words which are being joined together.
3. "Alot" is not a word. "A lot" may be what you were attempting to write.
4. Compound adjectives -- adjectives composed of multiple words -- must use a hyphen to link each individual word. It would be instead correct to call this the
"most tight-ass stuck-up website."
Full Warning.
Do not post anything like this again. If you have a question for a moderator, please PM one of us.
-- TAL

here is my list

mana 31
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxe[/color]s
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

tutor 5
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor

draw 14
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
4 night's whisper

utility 6
2 repeal
2 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 4
4 tendrils of agony

I really like night's whisper after trying it in my deck. Getting black mana sources is the easiest thing to get in the deck. Also after tutoring with a tutor that puts it on top of your library it's good to be able to draw it that turn and not have to wait. Repeal is great for that reason. Plus mox sapphire and repeal are more than broken. I often find myself tutoring for a sapphire if I am holding two repeals. I was almost inclined to switch my lands to city of brass and gemstone mine but wastelands are a problem. The only card I really need outside of blue and black is wheel of fortune. It usually wins turn 2-3.

This post violates Rule 1, Deficient Writing Skills.  It's also a borderline violation of Rule 4, Lack of Content, given the cursory support provided for your claims.  This is not the first time a moderator has needed to provide guidance for you, so I'm giving you a verbal warning.  We expect all users on The Mana Drain will read and comply with the site rules.  Please take the time to do this before making any additional posts.  If you're unclear on whether or not a post would violate the rules, please feel free to PM a moderator, and they will be happy to assist you. 
-DA

whoops. eh he he i cant count ment for it to be 60 cards. i updated the list. i took out force spikes think twice and brainstorm. is it really that bad? i need to test it against good vintage decks and players but they are hard to find on the web wizard program alot of times.

ok i just noticed admistrator warned me on first post so let me explain how the deck works for those that are curious. this is a deck made almost entiraly of instants, its not a tendils deck becuase alot of essental overpowerd cards in tendrils are sorceries and artifacts. gifts uses many of these same sorceries as well. Im not using merchant scroll for that reson as well as many other cards suggested for that reson.

the job of the deck is very simple, counter spells and if your oppenent plays nothing or you have enough mana left eot draw or do somthing usfull. its classic blue im sure you all know how it works.

as far as some of my anti-creature heavy disruption the reson being that this is trying to be a mid to late game deck and creatures are a big problem if they stay on the board, probably one of the reasons that U/W control has been so good over the years blue needs wrath of god to deal with the ankle bitters. magic is still a creature game even in vintage yes there is tendrils decks but there is tons of decks that use creatures as a win condition.

i desided brainstorm is definitly needed to smooth out draws so i added that. I wanted to make it more consistant so i made more 4 ofs in deck. think twice stays in intuition is a great draw engine, gifts perhaps is better but the flipside is you have to build your entire deck around it, this isnt a gifts deck.

im not sure that using creatures as a win condition is nessisarly a draw back there is definitly a lack of removel in the meta game of vintage
disruption

4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 mana leak
4 cunning wish
1 pithing needle

draw

4 intuition
4 akumulated knowledge
1 fact or fiction
1 ansetrial recall

lets go for the kill!

1 tinker
1 dark steel colossus
1 phyrexian negator
2 psychatog
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor

mana

1 black lotus
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 sol ring
1 library axendria
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 seat of synod
4 island
1 swamp

cunning wish side board

1 hidieus laughter
1 force spike
1 misdirection
1 smother
1 chain of vapor
1 boomarang
1 whipe away
1 undermine
1 memory lapse
1 darkblast
1 stiffle
1 trickbind
1 shadow of doubt
1 sudden death
1 spell snare


@ Sporkcore i like that list it looks fine to me  let me know how it works for you i just wanted to go almost pure eot deck though.

thanks for reply. yes cunning wish is awsome i probably should put another in. i like counterspell much more then leak i have the mana base to support it because this deck last into late game i find it nesisary. misdirection only works against certain spells and counterspell works against almost everything. never underestimate the power of consisnant countering. This deck may not be better then meandeck gifts and its a WIP but it has more win conditions, somthing I feel many T1 decks are lacking.

Berserk is a great idea and if i were to splash for tropical island i would probably run one life from the loam because its such a great tog machine. as for darkblast i realy dont like it espicialy maindeck it dosnt dredge enough and there are many decks that it would be a dead card against.

gush seems a good choice to me i will add this and try it out.

I was going to include mystical tutor i just didnt have the slots available unless you suggest going over 60 cards? i dont know if thats a good idea but doable.

i put 4 intition becuase it makes it consistant but i could see lowering that number. playing intuition for 3 accumulated knowledge is just great. next turn I dont have to counter or have enough mana open accumulated knowledge is basicly ansestrial recall for 1 more mana. and by that time i have 5 cards in my graveyard so its just more food for tog.

as far as tormods cyrpt i have counter spells AND pithing needle so im not to worried about it. also i have phrexidon negator and the colloses so it isnt entiraly relient on the graveyard.

thank you for your input. i will try some of those suggestions.

i have been doing well with this deck on the web wizard program.

win condition 6:

3 psychatog
1 phyrexian negator
1 tinker
1 darksteel colossus

counters 13:

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 mana drain
1 force spike

draw 13:

4 accumulated knowledge
4 intuition
1 frantic search
1 ancestral recall
1 fact or fiction
2 think twice

other 7:

1 wipe away
1 pithing needle
1 cunning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 time walk
1 yawgmoth's will

mana 21:

1 black lotus
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 sol ring
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
2 seat of synod
6 island
1 library of alexandria

sideboard 15:

1 undermine
1 force spike
1 mana leak
1 boomarang
1 chain of vapor
1 hideous laughter
1 smother
1 sudden death
1 stiffle
3 trickbind
2 shadow of doubt
1 engineered plauge






Since you're new you won't get a warning for posting just a decklist, but please familiarize yourself with the board rules. Posting just a decklist is frowned on because it looks really lazy. Talk about your matchups, what has been working and what hasn't, what you've tested, explain strange card choices, etc. Welcome to TMD!

-Hi-Val

whoa massacre is sweet thanks for the hot tip. i was looking for some good T1 mass removal that would be great when im drawing tons of cards. fish is definatly a deck i think about when thinking about disruption and utitlity to put into my deck.

thanks for sugestions guys. i like 4 tendrils and tons of land it works fine becuase im usaly trying to get yawgmoths bargen into play wich is very expensive. i usaly dont have to much mana for what im trying to do. once i got a hand that was 2 dark rituals 2 cabal rituals 2 tendrils lotus petal and i top decked swamp ftw. so i like having lots of tendrils somtimes if im running out of life ill use it or ill use it and get part way there then regrowth it and play it again. your right about creature destruction 1 maindeck smother does the job of taking care of peskey medeling mages and true belivers. i was thinking of puttintg the Xantids in maindeck so i guess take out the cabal ritual for them? i really like the orb and fastbond just by themselves in this deck there really good i swear the only card the could be dead in that combo is crucible but with all the strip mines and wastelands running around even that can come in handy. i went with this Bg vaient becuase i like vintage but all the decks i played i kept getting mana skrewed in. i know vintage is fast but i like having a solid mana base and this deck needs tons of black.

so i started testing diffrent tendrils decks but they were all scary to combo off somtimes becuase i wasnt sure if i could make it. alot of times i needed one more mana or somthing. this deck has i mini combo in it while your going off to ensure your succes. it isnt somthing to aim for but you usualy draw into one or two of the cards. if you draw into 2 its definitly worth tutoring for the 3rd. im sure you guys have herd of it before. zuran orb + fastbond + crucible of worlds = infanite life and mana. even if your not set up for the kill, just gaining infinate life will hinder anyones chances expept mabie bombermen or some other infinate kill deck. if you have that combo with yawgmoths bargen in play there is pretty much no way you cant win. why did i go with green you ask instead of blue. well thats a good question. having blue gives me force of will but that means i have to run LOTS of blue cards. i wanted to make the combo more consistant and i was sick of getting my duels wastlanded, its bad enough they can stiffle the sac lands. also green gives me acces to elvish spirit guide (i know it dosnt count to spell count but its still a great mana hook up). so when im comboing off drawing tons of cards and losing tons of life, i know i will have a mana hook up. i like the fastbond combo because getting the cards by themselves is great tooexept for crucible mabie. zuron orb is always welcome, i know its suicide black but i dont want to kill myself before the combo goes off. more life=more cardsa and fastbond is good for obvius reasosns. i was using hymn to torach as a discard along with duress but found that cabal theropy worked better. i usaly go for force of will turn 1 with those and check there hand. also having somthing for 1 is great if you need to up your spell count a bit. the way i usaly end up playing unless i get yawgmoths bargen or tons of rituals and tendrils in my first hand is tutor for necropotence and go from there.

discard
4X duress
4X cabal therapy

tutor
1X demonic tutor
4X grim tutor
1X vampiric tutor
1X Imperial Seal

win condition
4X tendrils of agony

draw / graveyard
1X necropotence
1X yawgmoths bargen
1X yawgmoths will
1X regrowth

secret tech
1X crucible of worlds
1X fastbond
1X zuran orb

mana
4X elvish spirit guide
4X dark ritual
4X cabal ritual
1X mox saphire
1X mox emrald
1X mox pearl
1X mox jet
1X mox rubie
1X black lotus
1X lotus petal
1X sol ring
1X bayou
9X swamp
4X polluted delta

wow balance is a great idea thanks for the tip that would probably work great in this deck

i played the fish match with nullrods and stormscape aprentice that guy sucks against the big man. im putting pyroclasm in there maindeck just becuase of that match.

it just pisses me off when my openent plays a creature and all i have is misdirection. mabie i will play more bounce spells or discard altough i cant see why couterspell is bad. i dont know though having just one or two daze can really through an oppenent offguard they probably wont see it coming.

wow this deck is really solid i like playing it. ive been kicking butt with it. definatly recoup, time walk, tinker, and yawgmoths will is a great package. mabie im not experianced enough for the tendrils combo yet i had better luck with that with pitch long alothough i like this deck alot better because its more stable and consitant. thats whats great about gifts basicly theres 8 copies of it with merchant scroll and once you resolve gifts your on your way to winning. for some reson people keep giving me tinker i dont know what there thinking lol.

@zeus : i dont like misdirection that much either becuase often i find it a dead card. what do you use instead? i was thinking about daze mabie? or counterspell?

wow that cleared up alot of the cunfusion i had about this deck thanks. i hadnt thuoght about the burning wish flashback combo. i will look at that article too. thanks again.

yes flashback has great synergy with gifts. what about Deep Analysis? that might be good.

so here is the world champ deck of mean deck gift:

1  Tolarian Academy
2  Volcanic Island
2  Underground Sea
2  Flooded Strand
3  Polluted Delta
5  Island

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 land

1  Darksteel Colossus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 creature

1  Black Lotus
1  Lotus Petal
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
4  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will
4  Brainstorm
4  Merchant Scroll
4  Gifts Ungiven
2  Misdirection
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Time Walk
1  Tinker
1  Fact or Fiction
1  Recoup
1  Rebuild
1  Chain of Vapor
1  Burning Wish

sideboard

3  Pithing Needle
2  Red Elemental Blast
2  Pyroblast
2  Fire // Ice
2  Tormod's Crypt
1  Chain of Vapor
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Pyroclasm
1  Tendrils of Agony



so i was wondering how to play this deck what is the gifts package you would normaly use to go off on the combo with tendrils. also why is tendrils in the sideboard? and what is the "mean" in the mean deck? i also dont get the Merchant Scroll why is that so good?