From my point of view the problem of playing Confidants is not the damage argument rather the question whether to play chalice of the void or not. If you play Confidants, there is no save Chalice value anymore (except 0, but for this you play null rod). Chalice 1 knocks out your Welders and tutors, Chalice for 2 hits tutors again, Null Rod AND Confis.
So my conclusion is: if you are going to play Confis, than play no chalice or only in sideboard.

Thank you very much, Rico. That is the answer I hoped for.


Of course you are right, its a replacement effect not an ability, my fault. Again, thanks a lot.

Sorry for insisting, but the whole matter is not totally clear to me. I'm again trying to describe the progression:

1. I put both artifacts into play. I pass to my opponent.
2. I wait for my next turn, but instead of starting it I skip it via untapping Time Vault. I cant to anything in this situation (eg. tapping Time Vault und copy the effect, so that I get the next turn !?? )
3. The next turn belonges to my oppenent. At the earliest in his upkeep I can activate my Time Vault and copy the effect with the rings. My oppenent proceeds with his turn.
4. I have 3 turns coming up: My "normal turn", 1 turn from Time Vault and 1 from its copy effect.

To put it: after bringing the artifacts into play I have to survive 2 more of my opponents turns bevor I am able to go infinite. Is this correct?
I'm asking this because people pointed out, that I have to wait only one turn but I dont know how it is possible.

Untapping Time Vault should trigger Rings of Brighthearth .... Someone might want to skip a second turn  

If "my" turn doesnt start, due to the replacement effect of Time Vault,  then I am not aloud to do anything bevor next upkeep. That means, it is the upkeep of my opponent. I am under the impression, that all trigger will put on stack at the beginning of upkeep even if they triggered during the untap step.
If this is true, I can use Time Vault to get a turn (and copy this ability with the rings) at the earliest in the upkeep of my oppenents turn. This way I loose a turn bevor I can go infinite.

People told me, that I have to put both artifacts into play, wait until next turn, then untap time vault, tap for a turn and then copy this ability with the rings to net one turn. But since untapping Time Vault is a replacement effect no turn actually starts and I am confused, when to tap for an extra turn and when to copy this ability.
Could some please clarify the interactions between these 2 cards and how to stack the abilities ?

Thanx a lot

Rings of Brighthearth
Artifact, 3 (3)
Whenever you activate an ability, if it isn't a mana ability, you may pay . If you do, copy that ability. You may choose new targets for the copy.

Time Vault
Artifact, 2 (2)
Time Vault enters the battlefield tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.
: Take an extra turn after this one.

Great article - keep up the good work !

Thank you. I presume, Gemstone Mine would work to?

another question:

I have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play and City of Brass, Do I take damage by using the City?
Thanx

There is some truth in your words........sorry for asking an obvious question.

Does all this mean that you tap any enchantment to tangle wire as well ?

Player A has Engineered Explosives in play with 2 open Mana. Player B plays Splinter on EE. Player A sac's the artifact in response. Can Player B despite the sacrifice search for all copies in hand, grave and library ?
This question came up, because of the dot after "Remove target artifact from the game". Does that mean, that this are 2 independent actions and if the first is illegal ( no target anymore) the second will resolve nevertheless ( the target has already been chosen on announcement) ?

Splinter:
Rules Text (Oracle): Remove target artifact from the game. Search its controller’s graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that artifact and remove them from the game. That player then shuffles his or her library.

Thank you

Hi,

For a long time I've been playing UR Stax. Since Trinisphere gone I have difficulties in beating Oath. I tried different SB-strategies with Duplicant, Goblin Bombardment, EE, Spawning Pit and REB but none was successful enough. My current configuration contains REBs, Ensnaring Bridge and Gilded Drake because i feel, that you can't win the war against Orchard ( despite wastelands) but you can stop them from attacking you. That is also the reason that I keep my welders after boarding.
My question is : What do you think is the best way/strategy for MWS-decks to fight Oath.
 
EDIT:
I want to stick with the UR build, because I don't like  COBs and the horrible Gemstone Mines, although I know there are better Sideboard options with a 5-color manabase.

You play pretty much the build of Smmenen wich is very good if your Meta shows lots of control. But what I'm trying to say is, that in Metagames with many different Decks ( control, aggro, prison, combo) a different Build is needed.
IMO we should increase the number of threats. If you do this, the playstyle of the whole deck changes as well. You play the aggro role more often. I'm not considering Slavery as a control deck  (at least not my build). Yes, it has control elements, but key play after chalice for 2 is to resolve a critter. The time other Decks need to cope with it you can use to set up Slaver and develope your Manabasis further.
Thats the reason I dont play LoA. In the first turns I try to resolve a threat and after a Draw7 its just not needed or rather you need the mana to cast your new cards. Your argument about sucking up a Wasteland is pretty good, although. But a lot of players try to cut you of your blue/red sources anyway, leaving you your workshops. That means, you still can cast your big guys. You are just not so dependent on the colored manas.

Many people pack artefact hate maindeck. (Null Rod, Damping Matrix). So for me it is most important to be able to play the "Big Man" strategy in the 1 game already.

I'm playing only 2 fetchies, so manasrewing trough stifle shouldn't happen very often. If people stifle my fetchlands so later they can't stifle my slaver or welder. I think thats a waste.

Bosh sounds pretty good to me, especially with 4 Gilded Lotus. I will test it over the second pentavus. ( but beware of stilfe  :lol:  )

I really feel the future of Workshop Slaver lies in a mixture of Triple S 7/10 Deck and the original Smmenen/Toad Build.


@mods
I you feel this threat is redundant with the one from The Hamburgler, than feel free to merge it. thanks.

I just played in Dülmen Workshop Slaver and I did quite well.
For reference here is what I played :

// Mana //  -  27
4 Volcanic Island
2 Shivan Reef
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarien Acadamy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
3 Gilded Lotus

// Draw //  - 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

// Protection // - 8
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

// Prison Components // - 7
3 Mindslaver
4 Goblin Welder

// Beatdown / Utility // - 4
1 Memnarch
2 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel

SB:
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
2 Red Elemental Blast      

Short report :

1.Round - Oshawa Stompy
Game 1 : Despite a Turn 2 Null Rod I smash face with my Platinum Angel
Game 2 : Chalice for 2 is so good. Infinite mindslaving wins shortly after the game.
1-0,  2-0

2. Round - BUG Reanimator
Game 1 : 1 First Turn Mindslaver and 2. Turn activation is some good.
Game 2 : He plays Akroma and brings me down to 3 live. Then Memnarch arrives and invites Akroma to beat her former Master to death.
2-0, 4-0

3. Round - my friend playing Workshop Slaver  
We draw and go for lunch.
2-0-1, 5-1

4. Round - BUG Grow
Game 1 : I have an average start with chalice 2. He goes crazy with Ancest, Deed and Will - you can't beat God hands
Game 2 : I have 1. Turn Gilded Lotus and play Blood Moon. But he has all the Moxen he needs. I still feel confident when he plays Ground Seal and Damping Matrix  because I sided out all my Welders. Then again he goes crazy with Lotus, Ancest, Walk, Will - You cant beat God Hands.
2-1-1, 5-3

5. Round - Control Slaver
Game 1 : I mulligan an hold a hand with 4 lands Chalice and Brainstorm. The brainstoms shows .... 3 more lands. After Chalice for 2 which is countered I didn't do much more.
Game 2 : I slave him an Turn 4. He just played a Welder and I recur my Slaver Turn by Turn with his Welder. - thanks (I sided out my Welders)
Game 3 : I play chalice for 2 and 3. Later I smash face with Triskelion and Pentavus.
3-1-1, 7-4

6. Round - Keeper
Game 1  : I play threat after threat - he counters some and removes the others. Then I can resolve Memnarch and go in Beatdown/Stealing Modus.
Game 2 : He plays 2. Turn Exalted Angel. I go down to 3 live, then I resolve Platinum. He continues to beat me but can't get rid of my Angel. Then I resolve Blood Moon, Chalice for 0 and Chalice for 3 wich is game, because he can't remove my Angel anymore.
4-1-1, 9-4

7. Round - UR-Phid
Game 1 : I resolve Chalice for 2 but he has Gorilla Shaman. Then I find Pentavus and start beating him. Later I resolve Mindslaver and I am able to screw him while Pentavus is still attacking .
Game 2 : I He has 2 Ophidian and again this pesky Gorilla Shaman, but I have lots of expensive artefacts and 2 Welder. He fires my Welders and destroys all of my artefacts except a Gilded Lotus. I topdeck another Welder and use a saved Mox in my hand to turn it into a Slaver. In his Slaver Turn I use the Ophidians to find Ancestral ......  he scoops.
5-1-1, 11-4

MVP's of the Day:
Chalice 2
Platinum Angel
Memory Jar


thoughts :

The Manabasis is pretty strong, although I really missed the 4. Gilded Lotus. We tested  a Version with 4 bevor the Tournament,  cutting Time Walk, but we decided to stick with the Walk because of the already low count of blue cards to reliably use Force of Will. Now I will probably cut the 3. Mindslaver to include the Lotus.
I feel that this Deck should abuse Workshop as much as it can. Therefore we included 4 maindeck critter to play more often the beatdown role. So either you can play Chalice for 2 or you play Mindslaver or you play a Fattie or you play a Draw7. That puts alot of pressure on your oppenent in the first 3 turns. Often this onlaught he can't handle.
The lonely Island was gold after boarding Blood Moons or against heavy landestruction.

I understand that in field of heavy control decks some of the more controlish cards like Fact or Fiction or Library of Alexandria are superior, but in a broad field it is better to play more threats. I always wanted to do something broken in the first turns and not sit down and draw cards from LoA. Fact just costs 4 Mana wich is pretty bad without Gilded Lotus.

I often read the argument that workshop slaver dies to Nullrod. I did not make the experience. First you still have Chalice. If not, just play a big Guy smash face with him. I didn't even side in my artefact removal against e.g. Oshawa Stompy. Just bring all your fatties let them do the dirty work for you.
Btw -  the Platinum Angel won me 3 games where my life was below 0.
Maybe it is just me, but I see Workshop Slaver as a Aggro Control Deck wich can go Combo. But the Aggro strategie is far more often used.

Some people say that they had to mulligan very often. - again not in my experience. Because of the Brainstorms you smooth your draws and the higher amount of artefacts in our build guarantee the use of all the (workshop) mana you pack.

Regarding the matchup Control Slaver vs. Workshop Slaver :
I cant see why it should be in favour of Control Slaver.
Chalice for 2 hurts them pretty much. They can't counter all your early threats. ( they have to counter or remove Gilded Lotus, Chalice, Welder, and your big Guys). You draw as much cards as they, but you can utilize them earlier, which is a big advantage. After Boarding you bring in more Fatties, Shamans and REBs. I'm always pretty confident to win the matchup.

Future:
I can see dropping 1 Pentavus in favor of a Sundering Titan, although that means altering the Manabasis a bit.
In the Sideboard I will add BEB because of Rack and Ruin and Gorilla Shaman and a Trisklion might become a Duplicant.
Trinisphere will go out, if 2-Land-Belcher dies out in Dülmen.

opinions ?

If you stay with Humility (which I would suggest) than drop an Undergound See for Tundra and a Volcanic Island for City of Brass.

Could someone please clarify some Balance interactions:

1. What happens, when my friend plays a Balance (3 lands) while I have 5 lands but Sacred Ground in play.

2. Same question for Balancing Act/ Sacred Ground.( probably the same)

3. What happens when my friend plays Balance and I have Karmic Justice in play. Can I destroy 2 permanents of him ? ( assuming the situation above)

thank you

bye you 4 Bazaar of Baghdad and play dragon and you should not have a problem to dominate your meta.

2 short questions regarding the new ability

1. I control an indestructable creature. my opponent plays wrath of gods. what happens to my creature ? ( i assume, that my beast still lives because wrath is still a "destroy" effect )

2. what happens, when my indestructable creature gets leathal damage ? will it be tapped like creatures with regeneration ? ( i assume, no)

thanks for your help