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1  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester on: July 28, 2006, 10:39:18 pm
The main consult targets are:

4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Gemstone Mine (sometimes)
4x City of Brass (sometimes)
2x Tendrils (it doesn't matter if 3/4 of the deck is removed looking for it)

and post side:

3x Chain of Vapor
3x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Xantid Swarm

Demonic Consultation does serve a different purpose than Imperial Seal (Imperial would almost NEVER search for any of the mentioned targets), but if the deck is tweaked slightly to support it, it makes SO many more hands playable than if Consulation was Imperial Seal.  Almost every time it is in my hand, I think to myself, "how would this hand play out if Consultation were Imperial", and aside from a couple of times, Consultation has always been a better choice.
2  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester on: July 28, 2006, 07:37:21 pm
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Regrowth is not a staple in this deck, it isn't even the reason this deck runs Green. In fact, Regrowth is a terrible card that costs tempo, it's a tutor in an off color that that has a limited number of targets. Any one who is playing this card over the 4th Grim Tutor seriously needs to take into consideration which one would actually be more likely to win you the game in any position (ESG isn't an argument, because I can say the same thing about the Rituals). Crop Rotation has way more justification to be in the deck than Regrowth, that card is the equivalent of a Blue Ritual, that is way more broken than anything Regrowth could ever do.

The only thing that makes regrowth "broken" is its usefullness in the drain matchup.  In a matchup where your bombs get countered left and right, regrowth is an incredible way to recover.  It might not be a staple, but it is certainly more useful than burning wish. 

Crop Rotation, while incredible in goldfishing, can leave you hurting when it is countered. Of course this can be played around, but I think the whole Regrowth vs. Crop Rotation is a metagame call.  Against Stax/Fish I'd go with Crop Rotation.  Against Gifts/Slaver, I'd go with Regrowth.

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Personally speaking, I prefer 8 Rituals because of the increased odds of resolving Grim Tutors, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and their synergy with Duress, when I bother to play the card, and Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. Honestly, I can't understand why any one plays with Elvish Spirit Guide, because the increased odds of resolving a Draw 7 are worse in comparison to the black cards, they don't have synergy with Duress, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, don't produce 5 mana with Threshold and can't be replayed off a Yawgmoth's Will.

In theory, what you say makes sense, but after playing with 4 Cabal Rituals, and a Burning Wish for a while, I realized that Cabal Rituals just made too many bad opening hands.  Many times, Cabal Rituals wouldn't become active until turn 2, and other times they were just sub-optimal.  This led me to the decision to run 3x Cabal Ritual 2x Elvish Spirit Guide.  This minimized the number of bad opening hands due to Cabal Ritual's casting cost, and still retained Cabal Ritual's "consultability".  In other situations, ESGs made Cabal Rituals playable.

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Burning Wish is protection from Extract and Cranial Extraction, a tutor for Tendrils, a second Yawgmoth's Will and removes all of the same cards that Chain of Vapor does. It is a bit of a trade off, because you lose tempo to wish for an answer, but that answer is both far more powerful and permanent, like Balance. You don't get to generate storm and mana either, but when you consider that you have two additional paths to Tendrils, Demonic Consultation, virtual immunity to Extract and Cranial Extration, it can't be countered with Chalice @ 1 I say it is easily on par with Chain of Vapor.

Again, Burning Wish, in my testing caused too many bad opening hands, especially with the two copies of Tendrils for Consultation.  The double Tendrils already solves the Extract problem, and Cranial Extraction... not run very often.  At all.


Overall, removing cards like Regrowth, Elvish Spirit Guide, Xantid Swarm, and Chain of Vapor improve your game goldfishing, but in actual play, these cards can be vital.  I would sit across from a good control player for a while and reexamine your card choices.
3  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester on: July 25, 2006, 12:56:41 pm
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Well, I don't know about calling it 'suboptimal', but I'm just not sure that there's space in the deck for two copies of a card that doesn't 'do' anything (until you win with it, of course).

It is very true that Tendrils doesn't "do" anything, but it is also being shown that against hate, many people have no problem running an "extra" win condition (aka: Burning Wish).  I have found the second Tendrils to be a better inclusion simply because Burning Wish almost exclusively grabs Tendrils anyways, and other wish targets are relatively weak.

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There are at least 50, and perhaps even 55, cards in GrimLong that cannot be changed.  That's just 'how it is'.  Those other five cards must be very powerful. By running Consultation and another Tendrils, you take two of those cards away from you.


I really don't think the Tendrils/Consultation configuration is costing me more than one slot I had before.  Like I said I would gladly do -Imperial Seal +Demonic Consultation... I just think it's better.  The only tradeoff I don't like is -Grim Tutor +Tendrils of Agony.  Losing a tutor sucks, but making the win condition twice as "topdeckable" while going off makes up for the loss a little bit.

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Furthermore, by running Consult, you run the considerable risk of removing your most powerful spells.  Mind's Desire; YawgWin; Wheell; 'Twister: All of these are one-ofs that Consult could end up removing.  I think that the decklist is too tight and the costs of removing your cards too great to run Consult.

Typically, while going off, there are SO many options, and bombs are so evenly dispursed that losing a couple of the forementioned cards is normally acceptable.  The only cards I would really worry about losing are Mind's Desire (this one is the biggest loss) and Yawg's Will.  The uncounterable aspect of Mind's Desire is irreplaceable, and the game-ending brokenness of Yawg's Will is tough to see go.  Fortunately, while consulting for a four-of, or three-of, the chance of losing the card you need isn't too high, and there are normally not situations when playing that one specific card is needed to win.

4  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester on: July 25, 2006, 11:37:25 am
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Consult is better than Seal, but it forces you to run 2x Tendrils which is suboptimal.

Why do you call 2x Tendrils suboptimal?

It is typically bad to have in your opening grip, but while going off, it is almost never a bad card to draw into.  The ability to "mini-Tendrils" is nice.  The protection from extract is nice.  The protection from Necropotence on the table into opponent's Duress is nice.  Not being forced to choose Tendrils in a Necropotence stack is nice.  There is some reasoning behind 2x Tendrils other than the inclusion of Consultation (although Consultation was the biggest factor).

I'm assuming the main reason you called 2x Tendrils "suboptimal" is because Steven's list didn't run them.  Granted, Steven is an incredible deck builder, probably the best, but I don't think that is enough of a reason to call all deviations from his list "suboptimal".  If you want to call a card "suboptimal" please include some reasoning other than the implied "because Smmenen thinks it is".
5  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester on: July 24, 2006, 07:09:07 pm
Try this:

//LAND
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Forbidden Orchard
1x Tolarian Academy

//MANA ACCELERATION
5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

//TUTORS
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Grim Tutor

//THE WORKS
4x Brainstorm
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Windfall
1x Mind's Desire
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Regrowth
1x Yawgmoth's Will

//PROTECTION
4x Duress
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Chain of Vapor

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for my meta I've noticed i NEED hurkyl's recall, so i put one in along with the chains. they both also work as amazing storm builders as everyone knows.

Sounds like you are in a Stax heavy meta.  If that is the case, I would drop the Burning Wish.  It is just too bad of a card to have in your opening grip when you want to go crazy and win first turn against a deck that can't counter your threats.  I also think that two bounce spells are overkill.  IF you are facing a lot of Stax, simply switch the Chain of Vapor for a Hurkyl's Recall, and leave the bounce count at one.

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the chromatic sphere is maybe for if i have a whole lot of colourless mana or blue mana i can make a black to win, and the fact if gives you a car helps with VT and MT. it might come out for sol ring though since i forgot about sol ring when i was making the deck.

DEFINITELY do that.  Sol ring is incredible reusable mana acceleration.

Try it out, you would be surprised what a difference a few small changes can make.  (i.e. The 2x Tendrils are a must with Consultation (even in a list including Burning Wish).) 

Cutting down proxies, I don't think I have lost speed or resilience.  Demonic Consultation is arguably better than Imperial Seal, and I'm arguing that it is.  Even if I did have an Imperial Seal sitting in my binder, I wouldn't use it over Consultation.
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