OMGZ!!! If and ONLY if your puttig up a BROODSTAR!!!!!! (techzors) I will be sure to guarantee my attendance for the next ICBM OPEN!  Especially if your going to be a complete asshole about having poor attendance on the release weekend of a new set.

im bet at least 90% of attendance is from the milwaukee area...

but definitely awful

1.  My last name is spelled Wyrowski.
2.  The Mana Vault should absolutely have been a Mana Crypt.  I lost at least 1 game flat out because it wasn't.  Than had  to mulligan at least twice because it wasn't.

I apprently missed the memo on when the made MTGO a format.

The way I see it everyone has two options at this point.

1.  Go away an either quit playing Magic, or play another format.  Either way quit bitching and just go away.

2.  (Recommended) Quit bitching and start working on new decks.

Personally I love the changes.  They make the format interesting again instead of having a Flash vs Gush vs shitty deck metagame. 

But for those of you that don't.  Quit bitching.  There is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Ummm, I seem to remember the format being pretty healthy before they unrestricted Gush.

And if they restrict Force of Will... I quit.

I am sure SCG is more then willing to run the actual tournaments at a loss.  I am pretty sure the majority have been.  Where they actually make money is from buying cards and the putting them on the website for resale.  It is similar to GenCon where most of the booths actually operate at a loss.  But make it all back later by getting there name out there.

I just went to SCG and added up the cost to build Doran from scratch.  Total was $584.50 no counting commons.  I don't play Bitterblossom.  If you want to tack on another $80.  You could build almost any T1 deck for that in a 10 proxy.  Stacks and Bazaars might be rough to build.  But everything else is pretty doable.

Wizards has stated many times they don't really care more than they have to about T1.  Sure T1 gets a nod here and there.  But largely they do not use time and resources on a format that brings them almost no income.

Most PTQ players buy there cards off EBay and/or dealers at an event.  Casual players are the ones that typically buy boxes from stores.

No I am not a T1 player.  And my points are not based on a T1 players perspective.  The only way I play T1 is if I can find people willing to borrow me cards.  If I can't, o well.  Missing a T1 tournament isn't a big deal to me.

I'm not saying any group of players is any less elitist than other groups of Magic players.  I am just stating a common perspective from my experiences with other players.  PTQ players are normally considered elitist by casual players, you don't hear us crying about it.  It is just a simple fact and I very highly doubt it will go away no matter what is done.  But all one can do about it is individually not be an ass to other people.

But on the whole no matter how much people sit and talk about it, there are just people that don't like T1.  Deal with it.  Everyone has there own opinion on what makes Magic fun.  The reality of that is that most people do not like T1.  Even among T1 players I hear more complaining about how the format sucks (because of Flash, Gifts, Trinisphere, whatever) at any given time than any other formats.  T1 is a pretty stale format in all reality.  You play Gush decks or Flash, than people play decks with Dark Confidants that beat those decks.  Than occasionally someone plays the Boogieman (Ichorid) and scares a couple people.

I never said I was a better person than anyone else.  Or even that I personally care about growing the T1 community.  I also don't fault anyone for being human.  Although I do agree with you that one can only speak for oneself, which is exactly what I did.  Those were my observations.  It is not my problem that T1 players are elitest.


Actually, it is a must play format because there are very few good Magic players that play T1 and people give out $200+ prizes.  Give me a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 draft any day of the week.

Actually, you are pretty wrong.  Or mabye I am just using a diffrent definition of friendly and pleasant.  It is nothing against you or anyone personally.  But diffrent cliques in Magic pretty much stick to themselves.  And you Phil are definitly part of the "In" crowd of T1 players.

The Type One scene is on the whole, no less friendly or unfriendly than any other Magic tournamet.  And on the whole, with a few exceptions everyone is polite and personable when they are there, but there is no real attempts to reach out.  I would be willing to bet you when I walk into ICBM 4 I pretty much know who will be hanging out with who, and there really isn't a lot of interaction between those diffrent groups.  And I am not just talking about ICBM guys hanging out with ICBM guys and GWS hanging out with GWS.  There are even noticable splits in between those groups.  And while I am on neither team, I am on at least sociable terms, if not friendly terms, with almost everyone in the local T1 community.  But, I pretty much hang out with the same people at every event.



Additonally, I do know multiple people that do think the local T1 community is filled with complete asses.  And refuse to play T1 because of it.

I'm the Andy Kobe was talking about.  My opening hand was:

Underground Sea
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Thoughtseize
Doomsday
Doomsday
R/D

The question is;  If you go turn one Dark Ritual Doomsday what stack allows you to win on turn two.  Kobe's solution would work if there was a second Island in hand.  But by casting Doomsday you won't have a second Island for Gush.  Every solution I could come up with didn't work because there wasn't another Island for Gush.

Another hit agaisnt Kobe's pile is that R/D is already in hand.

The best solution I have been able to find is:

Go USea, Rit, Doomsday.  Make the following pile:

Ancestral
Black Lotus
Demonic Tutor
Yawg Will
Tendrils of Agony

Than untap draw Ancestral

Play Ancestral (Storm 1, zero mana)
Play Lotus (Storm 2, zero mana)
Play Dark Ritual, sac'ing Lotus (Storm 3, BBBBB)
Play Demonic Tutor ---> Tendrils of Agony (Storm 4, BBB)
Play Yawg Will (Storm 5, zero mana)
Play Black Lotus (Storm 6, zero mana)
Play Dark Ritual, sac'ing Lotus (Storm 7, BBBBB)
Play Thoughtseize (Storm 8, BBBB)
Play Tendrils of Agony for 18.

My best guess is that there is something with Twister that works... but I havn't figured it out yet.

Right... that is what I said in my orginal post...  but that specific hand doesn't have an Island in it... so I am not really sure the point of your post.

My orginal thought was something really similar to this... the problem was the hand didn't have a second land for the alt cost on Gush.  Mabye I am missing it in your post... but I don't see where you got a second Island from.  Which is the problem I kept running into, every solution I came up with required Gush... but I didn't have the second Island.

I had an opening hand today on MWS of 2x Dark Rit 2x Doomsday 1x Thoughtseize, USea, R/D.  Is there a pile that allows you to win on turn 2 if you cast Doomsday on turn 1?

I am about as anti main deck Leyline as you can get.  But if you go back, and actually read what has been said (In this thread and the Not Quite Goblins Thread, I'm not going to copy paste everything every time I make a post, just to bump my post count.), even I have said that I would play main deck Leyline if I figured a specific tournament needed it.  But if I go to an event and there is only a couple of Flash or Ichorid decks, I'm going to just shurg and accept the possibility that I will lose to turn one Flash.  But even than if the game goes on for a turn or two, Goblins doesn't really have that terrible of a matchup, against Flash or Ichorid.

The best example for me last year was playing Goblins at SCG: Indy.  I went there knowing that Goblins had a good matchup against pretty much everything that was suppost to be there.  But also realizing that over the course of a 7 or 8 round tournament, broken things can happen.  I was willing to accept this risk knowing there wasn't really anything I was going to be able to do about.  But knowing as long as my opponenets didn't get amazing lucky, or me getting amazing unlucky, I thought I had a pretty good chance.  I ended up finishing like 18th or 20th or something just out of prizes.  Where my only loses came when I was way ahead and my oppoenent was pertty good at top decking.

Sometimes you just have to go to a tournament knowing that there will be acceptable loses.

While I think it is a good thing to get more people involved in T1.  I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way.

The problem, I believe, for most people have with getting into Type One isn't really a money issue at all.  I would be willing to bet that the average person looking to get into T1 isn't someone that is just starting to play Magic.  But more of the PTQ crowd looking for competitive tournaments to play in between PTQs.  Which genearlly have pretty decent sized collections, probably wouldn't have much of a problem trading Standard or Extended cards for T1 cards.  The difficulty is normally finding T1 players willing to "trade down" there T1 playables for Standard playables is much harder to find.  Also a lot of T1 players only have 4x Force, 4x Merchant Scroll, 4x Duels, 4x Worskshop, 1x Mystical, 1x YawgWill, ect.  Not a lot of people are willing to part with or break up there playsets of things, incase they decide to play RandomX.dec at the next tournament.

Even in the Milwaukee area with Team GWS and ICBM, both which have extremely talented Magic players, most only play T1.  The T2/PTQ players, which there are quite a few good ones, stick to T2/PTQs.  There are very few indviduals that play both, unless an event is local.  Either an ICBM open or a tournament at Game Universe (the major Milwaukee area store).

Most of these said T2/PTQ players also don't want to play budget decks, because while they may be competitive, they genearlly are not up to par against most T1 decks.  And if they were to go to a T1 tournament they would not be showing up to mearly hand over there 20-30 dollars and lose.  They want to attend a tournament with a deck they belive has a legitimite chance to win.  Not HideTideVersion.Outdated.dec.

The other big factor is learning curve.  Just having to learn an entire new set of 20+ viable or potentially viable decks, along with a set of cards that is 15 years old is a daunting task.  While yes, you can cut out a massive amount of chaff (seriously who cares about the 15 varient of Shock?), it is a massivly daunting task when you have no clear starting point on where to look.

The third smaller factor is that the format is still seen as completely luck based.  And while I can not honestly say this is entirely untrue, as there are a lot of things that happen where you are just simply boned (turn 1 Orchard/Oath, or turn 1 Flash kill you, top deck YawgWill).  There is still a decent amount of interactivity involved, where playskill will win the day.  And dispelling the myth that T1 is COMPLETLY luck based will go a long way towards getting more people involved in the format.  Because over the long run the best players will win the most.  But it is hard to get someone to believe that when they show up for there first tournament and get Flashed out on turn one twice in round one.

Or you could simply suspend the Gargodon.  When they play Oath, you untap.  Attack with your team.  Than after combat eat them all to Gargs.  Than you simply sit there and build up a hand of Goblins + Warchief.  Than when Gargs is ready to come home from vacation.  You un Suspend him.  Than play all your Goblins + Warchief and alpha strike for the win.

Than you don't have to waste any slots on crappy Bitter Ordeal.

There is no real "getting lucky" with a Sharpshooter against Flash.  With cards like Mogg Fanatic and Skirk Prospecter that sacrifice themselves.  Combine that with there entire combo untapping Sharpshooter.  It becomes pretty easy to kill a Carrion Feeder.  Also, they should shoot your Sharpshooter with the first activation of Mogg Fanatic.


How do you not kill a Jugs with a Sharpshooter?  Block with a Goblin Lackey.  Put damage on the stack.  Shoot with the Sharpshooter.  Resolve combat damage.  Untap Sharpshooter.  Shoot Jugs.  Jugs dies untap Sharpshooter for fun and profit.

Goblin Incinerator doesn't kill a DSC, so your point here is completely useless and invalid.

SSG > Sol Ring

Your arguments for LotV being a non-bo not that good.  First if you have a Leyline against Ichorid game one.  Congrats you are the victor.  Games 2 and 3 you are probably winning.  But if they remove Leyline, Sharpshooter is insane.  It allows you to kill all there Nacromobes and Ichorids.  Than respond to the Bridge triggers by either A) sacrificing a Prospecter or Fanatic.  Or B) shotting a Goblin with Sharpshooter to ace all there bridges.

The odds of them starting with a Leyline games two or three are also way lower then yours.  Because they have to look for specific combinations of cards to have a keepable hand.  There for they can simply not keep a hand based on Leyline of the Void.  They need a hand that has Leyline hate + a dredger + Bazaar (or Breakthough or Colissum) to have a chance.  They can't afford the luxuray of just trying to hit Leyline.

Same thing with Flash.  Congrats you just won game one.  Game two same thing as against Ichorid.  If you have a Leyline your probably winning.  And even if they remove it.  Sharpshooter shuts down all of the Flash kills except Disciples.

And, even if ALL it does is destroy every Fish deck and every Welder deck.  Is one spot really to much to ask?

But, I do agree with you.  You specificlly, should not play Goblin Sharpshooter since you do not know all the interactions with it, which makes you unable to use the card to its maximum value.  You should definitly play a Goblin Incinerator in that slot.  For the record, that is not a flame.  It is simply me stating my opinion based on the statements he made about the card.  I am simply trying to help him get the most out of his deck.  I wouldn't recommend to one of my friends to play Doomsday in Trop Storm if I thought they couldn't play the card correctly.

@Mods

Can we combine this thread and the Goblin Sligh 2K8 thread?  They both have worked themselves to the same place.  Chief and I have also answered most of these questions there.  It is just getting redundant to have two threads.

@Everyone else

I have already answered kaos's questions regarding 2 Sharpshooters, Tarfire, and Pyrostatic Pillar here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35663.0

[quote author=kaos42069 link=topic=35588.msg497165#msg497165 date=1208928848
Mana base... why run 6 mountains? why not add in 2 more fetch lands and 4 of the RB shock lands? you HAVE to have turn 2 black mana for earwing squad...

Pithing needle is a GREAT card for sideboard... its one of the most effective stops in the game.[/quote]

I am really seriously trying to help you here.  But this is the last time I answer a question of yours in which you state something obviously stupid than can be answered by simply reading the card.

Yes Earwig Squad casting cost is 3BB.  By hard casting it though you do not trigger the prowl.  Which means you never want to do it.  There for 99% of the time you do not care if you have double black.  RTFC dude.

The situation in which this come up are not going to happen until turn 4 or 5 at the earliest.  It is also ridiculously rare in Type One for those situations to come up.  The only real situation you want to hard cast him is your opponent killed all your Goblins and you are top decking.  Almost never happens.

The reason to run 6 Mountains and 6 Fetches instead of 4 Mountains and 8 Fetches, is in the mid game Goblins is actually a pretty mana hungry deck.  And you actually want a well developed mana base.  This is even more pronounced by not running AEther Vials.  Blood Crypt shouldn't be played as a four of.  You could make a case for a one of.  But there is nothing more embarrassing for a virtually mono colored deck than losing to a Wasteland.

Pithing Needle fails based on the same reasons that Thorn does.  It also involves a lot more guessing, and if you are wrong about the named card, you are in even worse shape.  Also the list of cards that are played right now is pretty small in which it is effective against.


Don't even bother testing Thorn, they are crap in Goblins.  Hurkyl's and Rebuild are also much more common than Echoing Truth in peoples boards.  Echoing Truth is still also effectively +4 damage to them with a Pillar in play (2 from Merchant Scroll and 2 from Truth).

Personally, I agree with Chief from the other thread.  Neither of them are really needed.  The match up in all reality isn't that bad for Goblins.  Boarding in Extirpate and REB makes life really difficult on them.  Also if they are still running Angels so much the better for you.  Angels are actually easier to beat.  You are actually perfectly capable of racing them.

If I had to play one though it would be Gargs.  Because you can set up one big turn and alpha strike them using Warchiefs, Drivers and Gargs coming off suspend.

For starters.  eightywpm beat me to it on prowl.  Apparently, the hardest skill in Magic really is to read the card.

2.  Wtf are you talking about?  Who said anything about Bridge from Below?  Thorn has no relation to Bridge what-so-ever.  Did you even stop to consider your what you were saying?  Bridge doesn't need mana to work.  It simply sits in your graveyard and does its thing.  The ONLY relevant card in Ichorid that Thorn affects is Dread Return.  Yes, for Manaless Ichorid that 1 mana can be rough.  For the GOOD version of Ichorid 1 mana is no problem.  Which makes Thorn completely irrelevant and you just wasted 2 mana and probably your entire turn doing absolutely nothing.

3.  While you are agreeing Sharpshooter is good.  Two of them is also to many.  With Matron you are effectively running 5.  And there are a number of match ups you don't want to draw him in.

4.  While I appreciate you trying to point out other options, you are simply wrong.  Apparently those 5 reasons weren't enough or I didn't explain it clearly.  So let me try one more time, than if you still want to run Thorn feel free to run a suboptimal sideboard and continue to be stupid.

Yes you will take damage from Pillar.  You might even take a lot of damage from Pillar.  Who cares?  Your life total doesn't really matter.  WHAT!?!  Goblins life total doesn't matter?  How can that possibly be?

1.  Flash does infinite damage.  If they resolve a Flash it doesn't matter how high your life total is... you will die.
2.  Empty the Warrens decks.  They will either make way more guys than you can handle, or enough that you can whittle them away by attacking/blocking.  Such is the advantage of running creatures.  Even if they make 20 guys, they probably took a ton of damage doing it, and will not be in a position to attack you with all of them.  At that point is simply becomes a game of resource management.  Odds are they will no longer be able to cast more than 2-3 spells without dying to Pillar.  And won't be able to effectively attack you because if they commit to many guys to attacking you can simply attack back for the win.
3.  Long variants.  These match ups aren't that great to begin with.  But all of there storm spells cost 3 or less.  So there for as long as you keep your life total higher than there's in theory they have to Tendrils you twice to win.  Otherwise they won't have enough Storm to kill you.
4.  Pillar is a threat, not an answer.  Pillar is a card you combo/control opponent must answer before they can effectively deploy there strategy against you.  There for disrupting them as a bonus by not letting them use there robust draw, and tutor engines to maximum effect. 

Yes it affect hurts you also, but it hurts your opponent more.  All of the cards you play pro actively kill your opponent.  Which is massive synergy with dooders that turn sideways.  For every two damage you take by casting a Goblin, that Goblin will break you even, and even get you ahead of the Pillar by attacking.

All the while you are putting them under pressure to act NOW.  How is this a good thing for an aggro deck?  Seems counterintuitive.  But its not.  By forcing your opponent to act NOW, even if they kill you, you are forcing them to get lucky.  Not just simply allowing them to sit around and deploy there strategy to maximum effectiveness.

Against Thorn on the other hand, it is not putting them in any such position to force there hand.  You are not even really slowing them down that much.  Because you are using your entire turn one or two to cast a two mana artifact that doesn't pro actively attack your opponents life total.  While this is fine in a Stax deck, because there goal is to entirely lock you out of playing spells.  Your goal is to reduce there life total from 20 to zero as quickly as possible.  Thorn does not help you in this goal, while Pillar actively pursues it with every card your opponent plays.  By using your entire turn to play Thorn and not actively trying to accomplish your goal, you are effectively giving them the one mana to pay for Thorn the first time they play a spell every turn.

Kaos if you would like to play terrible cards in your Goblin deck, feel free.  It is after all your choice after all.  Just don't come complaining to me when you lose they are not Pillars.

Full Warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flaming).  In addition, your writing skills leave something to be desired.  Reviewing the site rules may help you to better understand TMD's posting standards, and how calling people stupid falls short of them.  -DA

Because Tarfire is awful.

1.  It doesn't pump Piledriver
2.  It doesn't trigger Earwig Squad.
3.  Any other Goblin in the deck has a higher potential damage output.
4.  Goblin Incinerator can kill any creature in the format not named DSC, draw you a card, and pumps your Piledrivers and trigger your Earwig Squad.
5.  Sharpshooter kills all of your opponents creatures not named DSC, your opponent, pumps your Piledriver, and triggers your Earwig Squad.
6.  Stingscourger removes any blocker in the format, pumps your Piledriver, and triggers your Earwig Squad.
7.  It doesn't sacrifice for mana to Prospectors.

Throns is terrible because:

1.  It is an answer not a threat.
2.  Pillar is threat and an answer.  It pro actively kills your opponent.  While making it hard for them to set up because you close the window on how long the game will last.  Back to the balance between Disruption vs Aggressiveness again.
3.  Go dig up an article from 1995 on why Orcish Artillery is good, if you are scared of damaging yourself.  Yes Pillar will do damage to you.  But you all the things you are taking damage for directly kills your opponent.  I will gladly take 2 from Pillar to play a Piledriver if I get to attack them with it for 7.
4.  Manaless Ichroid doesn't exist in Chief and my metagame.  Because it is garbage.  Mana Ichorid is where it is at.  You are just stuck waiting for the rest of the world to catch up.
5.  The best Storm combo deck right now plays 2x Doomsday... seems good for the Pillar team.  Dito with Fastbond.  Ever spell they cast means 2 less mana when they start Gushing.

It has nothing to do with it being to slow for Goblins.  But everything to do with Flash making the format to fast right now.

Umm Vial is TERRIBLE right now.  Even Goblins isn't running it. 

Also take a lesson from Type 2 players, you don't have to build your deck any special way to make Gofy huge.  He just gets there.

Thats because Control is dead in Type One.  The community as a whole just hasn't figured this out yet.  You either play combo or aggro.

Bleh, I am so sick of hearing the "Next Level" moniker slapped on every deck after Extended this year.

I personally vote for Crunch Berries.  Because Doomsday stacks can make you feel like someone is crunching on your berries.  Also because Doomsday was printed in a time where busted combo decks were named after breakfast cereals.

Also Kobe, which matchups do you try to assume more of a control or aggressive position in?

Completely agreed.  Cabal Therapy falls into the to much disruption category.  Probably less than 10% of Magic players should seriously consider even playing Cabal Therapy.  The our 90% of you are just not good enough to play the card correctly.  In T1 the disparity between playing the card to its maximum effectiveness to merely just "good" is massive.

In addition in Goblins flashing back Cabal Therapy simply costs you to much tempo for a limited amount of disruption in most cases.  Yes, it is capable of winning games.  The majority of the time Thoughtseize will simply just be better than randomly naming Merchant Scroll or Force of Will.


Earwig Squad (already been discussed)
Leyline of the Void (already been discussed)

Other than those... here we go:

0 Sol Ring:  Ring just isn't effective in this deck.  Without Sedge-Gang Commander or Kiki-Jiki these is just no reason to have it.  It is pretty rare when you are going to actually want to play this on turn 1 or 2.

Goblin Sharpshooter:  This guy is just amazing.  He single handily beats the majority of Fish decks.  He also allows you to combo out doing a lot of damage by sacrificing Mogg Fanatics and creatures to Skirk Prospector.  It is rare when a creature is out of range.

Stingscourger:  The major reason you have to run this guy is because of Tinker.  A fast turn 1 or 2 and sometimes turn 3 Tinker for DSC  can probably outrace you.  And will definitely out race you if they have access to Time Walk.  Also in addition is removes blockers to clear a path for your Goblin Piledrivers.

Skirk Prospector:  These guys are effectively Lotus Petals two and three that just happen to trigger the Prowl requirement for Earwig Squad.  Help you to accelerate into Warchief.  They also allow you to combo out with Sharpshooter to do massive damage.

Goblin Matron:  The other contender for this slot is Goblin Recruiter.  It varies on which one is better based on the metagame.  My opinion on this is that you want to play Recruiter in metagames that allow you to play AEther Vial.  And Matron if the metagame dictates Earwig Squad.

Mogg Fanatic:  This guy actually does a lot of really useful things.  First off it is a 1 drop so it triggers Squads.  It kills Dark Confidant.  Gets rid of Bridge from Below and kills a Narcomobea.  And can 2 for 1 most of Fishes creatures.  Allows Sharpshooter to untap.  And just generally is a good all around guy.

0 Wasteland/Strip Mine:  The format is just to fast for these to be effective in decks that don't seek to form some kind of a lock.  You need something like Sphere of Resistance in Stax to slow your opponent down enough to make the effective.  The format right now revolves around two, two mana spells that don't need any additional help to win the game, so often any land + mox will win for your opponent.


Honestly, I have not tested this guy.  And I am not going to.  The only way I will test this guy is if Chief tests it out and tells me it is good.  His stats are pretty average  at Grizzly Bear level.  Being uncounterable isn't really that big of a deal.  And his ability requiring a mana is just a hinderence.  Very few times in Magics history has been slowing down your entire game plan by a whole turn effective.  Often times it is just to your opponents benefit.  In a T1 this is even more pronounced.  It goes back to the aggressiveness vs disruption theory.  Making Goblins uncounterable is probably just not worth the cost of slowing down your game plan by a turn.

Slight correction, card name is "Dream Salvage.