why doesnt anyone suggest forsaken city for god's sake?

"Forsaken City doesn't untap during your untap step.

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove a card in your hand from the game. If you do, untap Forsaken City.

T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

pretty much just RFG your draw every turn and your set on the required blue.

i made this deck because i simply wanted to see how it would work, even if it failed miserably. i am aware using white is better, i found that out during a game on MWS a few days ago. this was just something i wanted to try, because i wasnt sure how it would come out. it wasnt bad, but i think sticking with white is the best plan.

keep entomb if it is one of your main keys to getting strip mine/crucible lock. trinisphere should do great with an aggro metagame. Since your meta has green fast accel decks, propaganda may not be your best choice. Island Sanctuary may help for some decks (unless they use flying beats) ir will just prevent you from drawing and give you more time to use the black vise/ strip mine lockup kill. I think you have plenty of Tutor effects so Dark Confidant may not be the best choice, since it will on kill you. From my experience in Stax decks they achieve plenty of time to kill the opponent, so you arent exactly in a rush. thats about all that i think hasnt been said, the wrest of the deck is pretty solid.

Sinkhole over Wastelands isnt the best idea. BB isnt very easy to get however you can easily just drop a land and take something out, as well as if you really need mana, wasteland provides one colorless. yes, it might take up your land drop for a turn, but thats not a problem.

Pros [IMO]:
 
Wasteland costs 0
Cant be countered [only Stifled]
Provides mana when needed
Works great with Fastbond/Crucible Combo. [or with Crucible itself]
Less expensive [cost wise]
Sinkhole costs BB, when Waste is an easy first turn drop, limiting your opponents second turn to playing a single land.

Conns:
Limited to one land a turn.
Only targets nonbasics, but come on, this is vintage. people run like 3 basics lands [at most!] in their decks.

I suggest limiting yourself to three Crucibles. Add one Zuran Orb for the hell of it, it provides the Fastbond/Crucible Infinite Life/Mana Combo, as well as providing you with extra life when in need. no need to worry about not being able to find it, or crucible either because you run 7 or 8 tutors. Speaking of tutors, why run three Grim Tutors but no Imperial Seal?

Karn seems more reliable for sure. It is able to be hardcasted so when drawn without Tinker its not just a dead draw, as well mas it can take out opponents moxen for just 1 colorless. When locking opponent with crucible/strip, moxen are all that they will have left for mana, so hit them there too. Karn also pimps out your artifacts so your opponent gets to enjoy being killed by Sol Ring  .

I think i might have just restated everything the previous posters have requested, but hey, that is probably whats best. i say keep Mana Drain, they can come in handy versus many decks. but so would Trinisphere. i dunno man.

By the way, i noticed you were running the Black Vise, i recently pulled it out of my decklist because its best with some sort of lockup [Stax for example] yet my deck isnt. how is it working for you?

well thats all i got to say, hope that helped some. Goodbye.

that is true, but many of them play enough cards that allow them to get a majority of them back.

i am aware that Jotun Grunt is much better than Phyrexian Negator, but the whole purpose of making this deck is to put something similar in its place. I kept the bulky for low mana idea and used what i thought was best, Phyrexian Negator. I have found more luck in Planar Void because Tormod's Crypt is just one hit and then your opponent can use their G/Y from then on, but Planar Void just continues to RFG. Yes, it costs one mana more, but as long as i get it on the board i dont think that it is going to make a difference whethere or not i was able to drop a Grim Lavamacer or a Goblin Vandal. What i am saying is, if they are going to wreck me right away, then does it matter whether or not i have an untapped swamp on the board, if not a 1/1 goblin?

Yes, i replaced Duress with the white enchantment hate, but i am pretty sure black doesnt have too many Disenchants available. Besides, the only deck that the hate is really necessary with is Oath, and Duress works versus everything. And if my opponent drew four Oath of Druids and four Orchards, i think i would be screwed even if i were to draw a Disenchant, yet i do actually have a solution to such a hand, Cabal Therapy.

well this is my variation to Myriad Games' "The Mountains Win Again" deck. the deck was originally R/W, but i removed white and added black for various reasons explained below.

White was originally intended to use Swords to Plowshares to remove DSC, and i have noticed it doesnt serve too many other purposes besides Artifact/Enchantment removal. Each card listed below is a similar replacement to one of the original slots, for example, Swords to Plowshares is now Diabolic Edict, Jotun Grunt is now Phyrexian Negator, and Tormod's Crypt is now Planar Void. the only problem with running black over white is the lack of enchantment removal, however i have provided a similar answer, Duress.

Deck [61]:

Mana Base [25, a little too many IMO]:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
4 Mountains
4 Badlands
3 Wasteland [only three copies]
3 Mishra's Factory [three is plenty, IMO]
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring (yes, no?)

Creatures [similar idea, artifact destruction, just with a little black, 16 total]:

4 Goblin Vandal
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman [Vandals are enough, and besides, these suck up too much mana.]

Beat Shit:
2 Phyrexian Negator [yes thing is a beast, but there is a possiblity that it will eat up your entire board.]
2 Genju of The Spires [it seemed like it couldnt be left out, you know?]

Disruption:
4 Duress [good replacement due to the lack of enchantment removal]
4 Diabolic Edict [replacement for Swords]
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast [REB all the way]
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Misc Good Stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Planar Void [better replacement towards Crypt]
2 Goblin Welder [always good for defense versus DSC and 7/10]
1 Phyrexian Negator [for minimal creature decks where not much damage is dealt to it]
2 Red Elemental Blast [yes, only two.]
1 Pyrostatic Pillar [why not toss another copy in for storm-kill decks?]
3 Cabal Therapy [this card reminds me a little of Go-Fish]
2 Null Rod [there would be more if i owned more copies of it]

i am thinking about Darkblast, it seems like a great solution to Welders and other obnoxious guys that come wondering about.

I would love help so i can improve this deck, i need it especially on my sideboard and mana base, because it seems like i can never solve the best way to go on either of them.

okay, instead of creating a three color mountains deck i decided to remove white and add that splash of black that has been being discussed. i replaced many of the white elements with similar black spells, like StP was replaced with Diabolic Edict [for DSC removal], Jotun Grunt with Phyrexian Negator [only two copies], Hearth Kamis were removed by Dark Confidant [works very well i should say], Tormod's Crypts with Planar Voids [works out muchos better], and of course Plateaus with Badlands.

it still runs the simple 4 Mountains idea, however i threw in a random Swamp in exchange for a Wasteland. here is the list i thought up and i have been running on MWS for a little while now. So far only two losses [lost two games in best 2/3 versus Oath]. the only problem i have found is the lack of enchantment removal, however that has been replaced by Duress, so Oath isnt too terribly hard. [i won once versus another Oath deck when i pulled duress and an edict].

Deck [61]:

Mana Base [25, a little too many IMO]:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
4 Mountains
4 Badlands
3 Wasteland [only three copies]
3 Mishra's Factory [three is plenty, IMO]
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring (yes, no?)

Creatures [similar idea, artifact destruction, just with a little black, 16 total]:

4 Goblin Vandal
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman [Vandals are enough, and besides, these suck up too much mana.]

Beat Shit:
2 Phyrexian Negator [yes thing is a beast, but there is a possiblity that it will eat up your entire board.]
2 Genju of The Spires [it seemed like it couldnt be left out, you know?]

Disruption:
4 Duress [good replacement due to the lack of enchantment removal]
4 Diabolic Edict [replacement for Swords]
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast [REB all the way]
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Misc Good Stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Planar Void [better replacement towards Crypt]
2 Goblin Welder [always good for defense versus DSC and 7/10]
1 Phyrexian Negator [for minimal creature decks where not much damage is dealt to it]
2 Red Elemental Blast [yes, only two.]
1 Pyrostatic Pillar [why not toss another copy in for storm-kill decks?]
3 Cabal Therapy [this card reminds me a little of Go-Fish]
2 Null Rod [there would be more if i owned more copies of it]

i am thinking about Darkblast, it seems like a great solution to Welders and other obnoxious guys that come wondering about.

the sideboard is a little weak, i know. but to tell you the truth i dont really know what to plan for, i am going to start my own thread on this in the Noob Improvement Forum, so go on over there if you can help in anything at all.

but yeah, this is my random variation i decided to make of TMWA, does this help you? i highly doubt it, but why not read another kids version of it, and hey, you just may see it on the 19th at Myriad Games' tourny. btw, i love this deck very much, its most fun to play and at the same time it can hold its own in a competative match, more likely than not coming out in a victory.

-dan

try playtesting Black Vise as a singleton [since its restricted]. when dropped after  Nether Void your opponent will have a thick stack of cards in his hand, so Vise wouldnt hurt. 3 Crucibles should be fine, Entomb? nah, you should pull atleast one strip, so that would be a wasted slot.

would you be insulted if i took TMWA to the upcoming Myriad Games tournament? i have been playtesting it on MWS for so long, i want to try it out. 

instead of having people tell you that this isnt going to work you should just playtest it on mws, or somewhere that its not going to mean anything and if it works better over Brainstorm in multiple situations then its a keeper. i personally think it would work well combined with Welder, and several other cards that are run in control. its also colorless mana so its much easier to cast as well as activate, so i think it is worth trying. but hey, this is only my opinion, even if you say otherwise.

i think it would do rather well against many vintage decks. artifact destruction isnt really something such a card should worry about, because most players are saving it for something they would think of as a threat. most decks keep there hand full at all times if possible for card advantage, the only few i can think of are uba stax (for use with bazaar) and more casual of decks like elves, goblins, or burn. i am going to try it out because its just one slot in my deck, so its not going to be big deal. i used to use it in my turbo chant deck a few years ago, it owned because my opponent never had the chance to play anything.

i have thought about this card too as being something that wouldnt be half bad against the right decks, its a good first turn drop if you won the roll, it works as a continuous lightning bolt. in my opinion i dont think its a bad card, possibly worth taking up a single slot in several decks with the proper metagme.

Another Version i have been playing on MWS a bit that doesnt do half bad:

10-15 proxies legal.

mana base:

10 Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria [proxy]
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Sapphire [proxy]
1 Lotus [proxy]
1 Sol Ring

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain [proxy]
2 Daze
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Jittes
2 Back to Basics

Creatures:
3 Martyr of Frost (testing a bit, seems like a good turn 1 drop)
3 Thalakos Seer
3 Ninja of the deep hours
3 Rootwater Thief
2 Waterfront Bouncer

Card Draw:
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall [proxy]

misc good stuff:
1 Time Walk [proxy]
3 Aether Vial


the total comes out to 65 cards, way too many. what should i remove? i only have 12 creatures, so i dont think i should drop any of them. i think i am only going to go with four strips, but at the same time i really would like to use them all.

Edit: took out 1 drain and 1 wasteland. is that going to effect the deck too greatly?

yeah, i played it on MWS for a while. it just sucks. i am going to delete this in a minute

yeah, this deck didnt work to well in the past few games i play tested it, one game i dropped a first turn Titan after having to Force of Will another Force of will. but that was pretty much lucky.

i think this deck kind of sucks. idk, maybe i can work with it.

another player and i were discussing a deck idea that we think would do very well (known as Kelme on TMD, he's a good guy). i was playing fish and adding Welder came up. dropping welder in fish would be great as it brings defense to Stax, Slaver, and occasionally Oath (if running Colossus). Yet at the same time it would give you great creature advantage, allowing you to drop Titan. i have never seen this kind of idea come out of a Fish deck, and i personally think it would do quite well. here is what i have for a decklist so far, maybe some of you will be able to help me tune this up.

Here's the deck (five proxies, no drains)

Mana Base:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland (my entire meta doesnt use duals, so three is enough)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Mox Sapphire (proxy)
1 Mox Ruby (proxy)
1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Chrome Mox (card disadvantage, not so great)
1 Mox Diamond

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspelll (too ghetto for Drains)
4 Standstill
4 Aether Spellbomb (good bounce/pitch)
4 Aether Vial

Draw Engine/Tutors:
3 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall (proxy)
1 Tinker
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk (proxy)

Creatures:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Rootwater Theif (great combo disruption
3 Sundering Titan

Current Artifact Count: 18 (including Titan).  is that enough? and the entire total is 67, so i definitely need to take some out. help me out.

suggestions are more than welcomed.


[no deck record so far, i havent even played it yet, let me test it on MWS a bit, then i will post]

I am going to playtest Martyr in my Fish deck a bit on MWS, it looks like its going to be very helpful. Ii have also wanted something from Coldsnap i could play in my deck. good fine 

New Sideboard:

3 back to basic (take out Conclaves, add one island and wasteland): for nearly all decks using nonbasics.
1 Jitte (take out one Curiosity, or Bouncer): for high elf, goblin, or ever Dark Confidant play
3 Chalice of the Void (vs high powered decks)
2 Pithing Needle (versus Belcher and Orb Combo)
1 Rootwater Theif (versus combo)
1 Wasteland (versus man-lands and multiple nonbasics)
1 Aether Vial (for heavy counter disruption)
3 Annul (versus Oath, and my friends Enchantress, hehe)

Edit: B2B has been added to maindeck, it works so well.

I am not so great at making sideboards, but this is pretty much my metagame. if anyone knows better cards versus Oath decks, Combo, and Enchantress, tell me.

Creatures 
4   Ninja of the Deep Hours   
3   Rootwater Thief   
3   Voidmage Prodigy   (works well with Seer btw, draw a card, counter a spell.)
4   Thalakos Seer   
2   Waterfront Bouncer   


Card Draw
1   Ancestral Recall   [Proxy.. unfortunately]
1   Gush   
3   Curiosity

Control:
4   Standstill
3   Counterspell   
4   Force of Will
1  Echoing Truth

1   Time Walk [Proxy]

Artifacts 
3   Aether Vial
3   Umezawa's Jitte   


Mana:
13  Island
2   Faerie Conclave (whats Fish without faeries?
1   Mox Sapphire [Proxy]
1   Lotus [Proxy]
1   Strip Mine   
2   Wasteland

i am thinking about taking out my Conclaves and adding Back to Basics, since my entire mana base will consist of Islands. (discluding Strips that is)

i never come across too many creatures that cant be targeted by spells or ability, usually just colossus. so i am going to stick with echoing truth.

maybe brainstorm in response to whatever they are playing and draw three, now chances are atleast one of those cards in your hand should cost the same as the spell you are looking to counter, then put that card on top of your library, and reveal it. idk if that is too great, but it would work. i am going to play test 1 or 2 counterbalances in my mono blue deck. i dont think it would be half bad. however i am a noob and half. 

does anyone think sol ring would be any good, i have one in my binder from one of my old decks. i could also get my hands on Chrome Mox and possibly Mox Diamond, whatever seems better. one person told me to take out brainstorm because i had too much draw, i really dont understand that, i need to find slots to put them back. any suggestions?

back to basics, its mono blue, usually this is something you should take advantage of. idk though, i am a noob and a half. it would screw over my Faerie Conclaves and strips, but it just may be worth it.

i have found luck in Distress for Counter removal when playing Control or Fish. it may work better than Mind Peel because they will just choose their worst card at hand, when with Distress the card is up to you. I too dont do very well with Cabal Therapy unless its game two, after you know what your opponent is playing.

i think he is refering to the Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall when saying Draw7's, but hey, i am a noob as well. and if this is the same trademark on MWS, hey. again.

peace-  [kid who used noobish Doomsday deck and spoke to you about Waterbury]

ignore most of that if this is a different person. sorry.

well i started a deck and i have been testing it on MWS for quitle a while now. i am able to run five proxies so i made one of the few decks that can follow those standards. Fish. i made a mono blue fish deck that does well, its not a very usual fish deck though, it uses a very different creature base, as well as a few other chosen cards. i always thought shadow was a great ability, because it basically means the creature is unblockable (however at the same time, unable to block). it has the basic fish idea, drop a few pests and then bring out standstill. you should be able to see my idea of this deck. it does well in most matchups, several times on Oath decks i have been able to Echoing Truth there bulk after going through a five minute counter-war.

keep in mind that i cant purchase any mana drains, or additional power. it is possible for me to remove a few of the proxies that i am currently using and add drains or another designated card, so that is an option. time walk doesnt really seem to help me i have noticed, because i slowly kill my opponents, the most time walk will do is give me another combat phase, a draw, and two counters on my Jitte.

i use aether vial to be able to sneak creatures through the lock. Jitte is used for creature removal, and occasionally to deal extra damage. i have gotten the Jitte out real late in the game and it allowed me to come back and win after removing my opponents creatures, and gaining a few life to keep me alive.

Here is the Deck:

Creatures 
4   Ninja of the Deep Hours   
3   Rootwater Thief   
3   Thalakos Dreamsower   
4   Thalakos Seer   
2   Waterfront Bouncer   


Card Draw
1   Ancestral Recall   [Proxy.. unfortunately]
1   Gush   
3   Curiosity

Control:
4   Standstill
3   Counterspell   
4   Force of Will
2  Echoing Truth

1   Time Walk [Proxy]

Artifacts 
3   Aether Vial
3   Umezawa's Jitte   


Mana:
12   Island
3    Faerie Conclave (whats Fish without faeries?
1   Mox Sapphire [Proxy]
1   Lotus [Proxy]
1   Strip Mine   
2   Wasteland   

Side:

3 Pithing Needle (Belcher/Orb hate)
3 Chalice of the Void (bite it Moxen)
2 Annul (Oath)
1 Jitte (i <3 the Jitte)
1 Rootwater Thief (works great for combo, because there is a Crucible/Bond/Orb deck in my tourny)
2 Stifle
1 Waterfront Bouncer (Colossus loves to be bounced)
2 Echoing Truth (Like I said, colossus loves to be bounced)

this sideboard is basically random, much of it is metagame hate, however some of it like the Needle arent used so often, but when i come across a Belcher deck, it'll be necessary.


***One proxy slot is open.***

I am aware i have a few too many cards, like 63 total i think. idk, it does well how it is. Only three strips, two wastelands are in the sideboard for decks using only Nonbasics (quite a bit of my metagame uses very few). but yeah, i think two many strips doesnt really help because it screws you on mana, because often times i need blue, not colorless.

help me out guys, you all know Vintage hundreds of times better than me, but keep in mind that this is basically casual type one, nothing real competative. Thanks

Edit: had to fix decklist

okay, i just started playing magic again after quitting last year and selling nearly my entire deck so i could buy a bike. but whatever, i would like to get started again. i have nearly 200 hundred bucks, and an acception to five proxies, so i am trying to figure out what is a relatively good deck that i can make under my budget. since i am only 13, its hard for me to get a full set of dual land, so i am really trying to lean towards minimal duals, if thats possible. the tournaments i attend to are very casual, and there are very few serious magic players, so this isnt going to need to be a very competative deck. i have been playing a mono black fish deck that i stole from here and tweaked a little bit to my satisfactionn, and it has been doing pretty well in various situations. but anyway, i would like to make a new deck, however i dont know too much about the top vintage decks lately, because many new sets were released, as well as many new decks were created.

also, if anyone would like to help me playtest on MWS just say so, we can arrange a good time to play. i hope someone can help me out, because i really want to get playing again.