Counterbalance/Top is just too slow for Dread deck. You should have already won before its useful. Thoughtseize/Duress on the other hand ensures a reasonable chance of getting your Dread in play when backed by FoWs.
I also do not like white in the deck ( I think meddling mage/duress as a combo is nice but this deck just plays a Dread and says deal with it or lose).
Deeznaughts is a good deck because it just increases the threat count with Goyfs - I personally run U/B with three Hunted Horrors in the side for an alternate win condition ( a three turn kill but meh better than some - unfortunately it can only be played turn three and on successfully ).

Klu and his teamates developed the deck and worked on it for about a year and Andrew and I introduced the deck into the canadian meta ... here is the link

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27005.0

it never really took off in Canada but it was a lot of fun to play

That is pretty much French Tendrils. Andrew (reanimator) and I fooled around with it and it performed quite well at a few tournaments. There is a thread somewhere explaining all the card choices.

I think therapies can be quite useful depending on what synergies it has withe rest of the deck. I would not discount them so quickly if using scourgers and marshalls.

Some interesting choices Andrew ... I do like Earwigs and would also use four of them. I'm sure you need ringleaders and chiefs more then marshalls though. A mix of therapy and thoughtseize might be nice too.

Now adding green makes no real sense to me. You are screwing the manbase to much for the utility of main deck hooligans and sided grips. RB would be a lot more consistent I think and would allow for a few more wastelands

We tried a skullclamp Goblin deck when skullclamp first came out. I was sometimes fantastic and sometimes terrible. I'm just not sure of it. I do like the lack of vials though - not needed I'm thinkling.

For ther side I would lose the green and add red artifact removal and extirpates would stay. Maybe some black creature removal?

This are just initial reactions, mind you. I think there is potential for a strong inclusion of black in goblin decks. I would have to test a fair bit to draw up a list that I was happy with though.

Come over one night and we can test it against faeries, lol.

Not having anything better to do I thought I would play around with a faerie deck that wasw casually competitive. I might even break it out at5 a tournament just for fun.

UNPOWERED FAERIES FOR THE WIN

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Cloud Sprite
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Scion Of Oona
1 Mistborn Clique

4 Brainstorm/Curiosity

4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth

The faerie suite
cloud of faeries - something of a no-brainer as you play it for free ...
cloud sprite - needed a cheap one drop for the curve
spellstutter sprite - pretty much the reason I wanted to play the deck
scion of oona - this guy is just cool
mistborn clique - mid game pseudo time walk
sowers of temptation - well he's a faerie and could be useful

The utility creatures
ninja of the deep - well, of course
jotun - I'm splashing white

The rest are your standard counters and removal ... I had considered null rods main deck
but really I like the suite as is and will bring in serenity from the side if needed

now I had considered a red splash but really that would only be for rebs and this guy ... Boggart Sprite-Chaser ...
and perhaps fire/ice but is it needed?

green has faeries but offers very little utility that I need ... certainly I would prefer white

I even designed a little sideboard to handle the combos and help a bit with Workshops

4 Meddling Mage
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal of cleansing
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Echoing Truth

I actually did a bit of testing and for an unpowered deck it performed remarkably well although I'm sure it could be tweaked a bit. Reanimator gave me a few insights as to modifications in the main and side and also suggested
Familiars Ruse

Are misds and grunts less useful now? I mean misd on a thoughseize or ancestral still seems strong.

I think it might be time to look at Survival f the Fittest again. It has been used so many times in the past to create competitive vintage decks ...

Some ideas ...
TNT workshop/survival revisted
New Evoke combos and a number of other combos ( Saffi Eriksdotter/ Loyal Retainers as an example) or even a dread return type deck
Mask/Dread/Survival
FeB
Stompy green

fi yuo cna raed tihs , yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too

Cna yuo raed tihs ? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg . The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy , it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae . The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm . Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef , but the wrod as a wlohe Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt ! if you can raed tihs yuo can paly any dcek whotuit a pboerlm .

There are 3 scrollls to fetch it. The deck is a toolbox that fetches or searches for solutions. 

MirariKnight - I thought about the extra mindcensor too but there are so many creatures being played I would be nervous without two EEs and Fire/ice main deck. The second EE just makes it easier to get one out. 

Its the oldest debate. Do we overload on the sideboard and main deck for our weakest match up making the match ups we should win a little tougher? Is pyro better then FtK? I do not have that many red cards in the main deck and certainly Magus and ReBs have no place main against Goblins. I think Fire/Ice, EEs and FtKs are strictly better as they are useful in other match ups as well. I'm willing to live with Goblins. If I get my Dreads out and a few FtKs I'll have a some chance anyway so it's not an auto loss.  I would not rely on bounce anyway even if Piledriver was targetable. Bouncing a Lacky or Driver would only delay the game a bit.


That's it isn't it. We need to stop Welder and Trisk or we lose. Easier said then done though. I think it really depends on the build we are up against. I would expect to see Trisks, Titans et all coming out quite fast so we need to be faster still. We have some answers of course.

MirariKnight - Well you have inspired me to make a few changes to the deck. I did add the Dread and Stifles to my main deck and scooped your Spree tech up ( I like them better then R&R now . I did add Welders to the side to fight a little fire with fire - I can bring back my Crypt and EEs ( even at 0 thy take out EtW tokens and moxen ) retrieve a lotus or if needed and take out my opponents annoying artifacts possibly ( assuming he has one in he yard - think platz or collosus ). Also they can be usefull against Rods if again an artifact is in th grave. If they don't work out I'll find other solutions. I see Vial Goblins, Stax, an Urphid decks being a challenge as wel as hinky decks sporting four Null rods or multiple Needles. But all these problems have solutions.

I think both pyroclasm and ftk have their pros ad cons. I would veer towards the FTks myself as was played at the tournament. With Dread backup it should be quite decent. I'm very glad to see this deck being played with some success.  I'm going to move a least one dread and two Stifles maindeck in the build and see how that goes.

I really want the mana crypt and sol ring more than the extra two moxen and would consider adding a lotus petal ( in place of the sol ring ). As And11 said we are talking about personal preferences here and I found you can get very early disruption with the mana base I tested. The deck needs more testing as it is certainly a beta version as it stands now.

I'm not against adding two stifles an a dread main deck but are they needed in most match ups? Certainly stifles are always useful so
the spot taken by spell snares an chain certainly would be where they would go. The chain can go in the side for the dread. This just one more element to test but my gut already fel hey needed to go main deck to fight off aggro a little more and perhaps force combo into reactive stance instead of a proactive one ( a common enough tactic I suppose ).

And11 - I was working on a bomberman build and this is really a natural extension -stifle/nought can be your combo element without really upsetting the balance of the deck. Your list had many of the cards already in my bomberman build. I think with some thought sme testing we can produce  very strong archetype.

**MODIFIED LIST FOR THE PROPOSED CHANGES

Merchant Scroll is the second half of the toolbox fetching fire/ice, echoing, chain, ancestral, dominate and other counters. If indeed Dreadnought is added and stifles, which are good even without the Dreadnought when using Magus, Scroll is even better. It is a card that almost warrants restriction as it is quite abusable in a number of decks. 

I don't like reopening threads as a general rule but I thougt it appropriate to share a few thoughts on his deck s it ha all the tools to be threat in today's meta.

Well I've been testing he deck and as meta hate decks go it is quite strong. And11's version played out well so I did a bit of testing and tweaking. It has game against most decks and the sideboard has a sweet surprise for GaT Fish, etc. in a suite of cards that puts an early Dreadnought in play. Followed by a Magus it is really strong. The deck plays combo well and has answers for the common vintage decks. 

CREATURE SET: 11
4x Trinket Mage
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Aven Mindcensor

TOOLBOX: 7
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Fire//Ice
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Phyrexian Dreadnought

COUNTER SUITE: 11
4x Force of Will
3x REB
3x Stifle
1x Echoing Truth

DRAW/SEARCH: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Merchant Scroll
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

MANA: 22
5x Fetch Land
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
2x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
6x Island

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 FtK
2 Goblin Welder/Academy Ruins
3 Shattering Spree
1 Trickbind
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 ReB


Now some slots are up for grabs still. I generally like the counter suite as it works well with the toolbox and creature set. But you can see what I'm undecided on. Counterbalance works very well ith Brainstorm and Sensei's Top but with Magus and Mindcensor it might just be overkill. Mana Drains are quite nice. However, I'm using Stifle because its cc is lower and it counters flash Overall I think the deck has a lot of potential and is a solid idea that can be worked on for best results. It just might morph into a  Dreadnought deck essentially in the end  as stifles and trickinds are pretty good with Magus an adding another Dread is quite doable maindeck.

Well you re right Richard - I replaced the Predators with w/ Goyfs and really they are better. I shoved the Goyfs into side for the extracts.

They won't play oath with my Trygon out there is what you mean ... so in effect win anyway and, btw I've had multiples out of my own. The deck also packs a lot of counters of various types.  I also think mana denial can still ber an effective stall tactic if you hit artifact mana and lands. By turn three or four I often have quite a few creatures on board to attack.

Well, apart from being rods 4-6 there is my opponents fastbond, leylines, necropotence, crucibles, titans, threads of d., blood moons and more. Even Oath rears its ugly head on occasion. Plus of course it is a nice flying beat stick. I said it was janky but it is never useless and often needed. Also note the sideboard as crypts come in to replace Rods quite often. I like the Trygon.

Not that I didn't think of Tarmogoyf but he is not a mana source which has often been very useful with the bear. And a 4/4 is still good. 


Yep, that was that I was told when I played him until he started munching on artifacts and enchantments. He definitely belongs. In fact I need him in a lot of matches and he can come out turn two. As to which deck is better - well I'm not knocking GaT but you can bounce my creatures all day and I don't really care. But yes, I can see why some would agree with your statement. I don't think you saw the deck play last time out.  I left jst before the round of eight defaulting to Andew's KiTT tendrils deck but it took on Gifts, Ichorid and a Stax deck first. Don't underestimate it.
My only change would be to perhaps add Mindcensors to the side instead of Extracts. I know the deck looks a pile but it plays very well and has answers to most threats.

4 Force of Will         
3 Daze           
3 Stifle
2 Misdirection
2 Echoing Truth   

3 Null Rod   
           
4 Nimble Mongoose     
3 Werebear
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Strip mine
3 Wasteland
2 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

sb:
4 CoV
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extract
3 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

This is the deck I played in Toronto a few times with very solid results. The only major change is the addition of the gush/fastbond engine. I've highlighted changes made and changes you might want to make. The star of the deck was always Trygon Predator which effectively neutered a number of decks if I got it out early. Obtaining threshold is no problem and really your biggest concern is Extirpate so if you vary your spells enough you can still fight through them. Now the sideboard was designed for the meta at that time but I still think it quite useful against most decks although the meta is changing. The extracts were for Gifts but the deck might be played much less these days so some changes might be required.
Now I know that a lot of thresh decks add white. I never the lack of white a problem in Vintage. Truths replace StPs and Chalices and Rods are somewhat of a replacement for Mages ( which are not as good as they used to be ). Of course the deck was orginally designed to a budget deck but proxy tournaments have eliminated the need to drop your power.

Lochinvar81

I like your newer build. I picked up Belcher very early on and played it at the first Canadian championships. At the time Fish was very common and everyone was running four Rods and counters - I ran into three Fish decks in a row. You can win through hate but I found I needed to go off early to have a fair chance. Now we have both Null Rod and CoV ( did not exist at the time of the earliest builds ) so we have more challenges. We did not have storm as an option but used janky cards as a second option. What I like about the new builds are two-fold ...

Great mana accelerators
The addition of a few EtWs
Serum Powder

The old builds almost needed to incorporate both blue or black or both. It made the deck unwieldy and much less redundant. This new build seems to be faster and more consistent. As you correctly stated the skill of the deck is working through the hate so a sideboard needs to have artifact removal for sure ( both creatures and other spells) and accelerators as the second option ( workshops, academies, extra land, a strip,  ).  I think you are on track with your sideboard suggestions so far. Just a few grudges and/or sprees are needed.

As to your build specifically ... I would add a strip to the side ( remove a tarmogoyf ) and put Welder back there for the Wheel main deck ( remove a another goyf or your second shaman ).

My tech for Fish was always Massacre in the side. Just so long as you do not overextend this works out quite well.

Well I decided to indeed test the Top and Chalice main deck and really liked how they fit in. I will echo Mons sentiments - a full suite of Brainstorms makes the deck run smoothly. I am aware that the deck is pedicated to find the toolbox answer to any major threat and certanly space is an issue. Te deck is pretty tight on space so do we remove one to fit Needle main?  Do we relegate the Arbiter to the side instead? I do not think there is a definitive answer. There are more then enough shuffle effects here to make use of both Top and Brainstorm. I relegated the Needle to the side for now and will certainly consider WoGs and StPs as possible sideboard inclusions although I feel the spots are best served with other cards for now.
On Tinker/Colossus - this was never a plan. I had considered only Tinker/Plat which can be a very nasty surprise for many decks.
Well, I edited the initial post to reflect my current list. I feel its a solid base that anyone can tweak to their preference and meta. I am sure of a few things - I do not like black or red in the deck.

I used top play Grow/Mask which was a G/U build that used gushes and really had no problem comboing off as quick as GaT or playing the aggro-control game with Dryads. The question is do you really want to devote eight spots in your deck to this combo when you can combo with a single Tog. It did have great consistency though in two colors and I was able to sidebaord into Oath which won me a lot of matches. Just something to consider.

I'm not convinced that red is at all necessary. You have Truths and EE main deck and can side in StPs if you think the meta requires it. The only real addition is ReB. Not that ReBs are in any way poor choices but I think we have enough options without adding a color.

[quoteI always wanted to run Grand Arbiter in a deck and this was the first one I fit one in.  He seems pretty janky but when he hits the board, he is a monster, especially if you run Mana Leaks.  ][/quote]
Yep, he is janky no doubt but I like him. I still think mana drains over mana leaks - strictly better I feel.

All valid points. Like I mentioned I do want to see if I can include a few Thirsts maindeck and perhaps dropping a Brainstorm and a Merchant is the way to do it. I could also cut that Tundra for a Chalice. I presented what I felt was a solid shell but some more testing with the following changes would not hurt... 
- 1 brainstrom
- 1 merchant scroll
- 1 tundra
+ 1 cov ( not convinced entirely but I will test it main deck )
+ 2 thirst
Now I confess to have done limited testing with the deck - about twenty games - but I have played agaionst Bomberman many times and am familiar with the ins and outs of the deck. We have a problem North of the Border - Bomberman has been played in Canada since the very beginning. Around here people are very familiar with the deck and thus you have much less leeway for error.
We have a lot of CS varients being played here and also a lot of gifts. We seee some Ichorid but it is sl;owly being hated out. Flash will undoubtedly make anm appearance now and there are al;ways the random SS, Fish and Goblin decks.
Sure the sideboard can be changed but it is geared for what I percieve to be the toughest matchups. I have had little problem finding my Tinker even without the Mystical as the deck scrolls through a lot of cards fast and really plays defensive until the Plat is found - tinker in itself is always useful in this deck and surprisingly Plat can be hard cast quite often.

Bomberman is always showing up and often posts good records. Somehow it seems to have
fallen off in popularity with the emergence of Gush decks, Flash decks and Ichorid. So lets
look at a build and where the deck is going today.


the toolbox
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chalice of the Void

the search
4 Brainstorm
3 Merchant Scroll
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

the counter suite
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Misdirection
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV

the kill mechanism
4 Trinket Mage
3 Auriok Salvagers
1 Aether Spellbomb

the mana
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

sb:
3 Honor the Fallen
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 CoV
2 Trickbind
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Control Magic
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away

edited to reflect my latest test build


How the deck wins ...
Of course you will beat down for the win. What you need to do is
get your combo out and lock down your opponent. This is done by
drawing your deck and using EE, Crypt, Needle and GAA4
to ensure that Walking and beating down gets you that win.
You have enough points in creatures on the board to win after a
single Walk.

Black seems a natural include in the deck but Bob Bomberman is
no faster and often less consistent than a simple u/w build.
Confidants are getting a lot less play in combo and really for
good reason. There is enough search and speed without them. As
nice as the black tutors are Trinket Mages and Scrolls are enough.
Yawg's Will is just not needed in the deck.

Notice also that pyrite spellbomb is a card of the past. Again
it is simply overkill. 

You can deal with Leylines ... just bounce it and go off. After
side boarding its even less of a threat. The deck is under the
radar now but a good Bomberman player will cause problems in any
meta.

Now for a few debatable choices ...
Sensei's Divining Top - Could be a third thirst for knowledge
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV - just a quirk but often quite useful -
overkill?

sideboard -
Well mine is meta gamed but other choices include:
Swords To Plowshares
Extract
Energy Flux
Abeyance
Exalted Angel
Vedalken Shackles

Now I'm sure this will provoke some discussion on a few of my choices both
main and side. But this is a list that I feel pretty comfortable with. So have at it.

There is a big difference between banning a card and restricting a card. Vintage is comprised of powerful cards. Black Lotus probably appears in every top eight deck. Do we ban it? Ancestral Recall is used in almost every deck that runs blue. Do we ban it? Is Will worse then a first turn Tinker/Colossus with backup or a turn one trinishere? We did not ban any of those cards.

The storm mechanic when introduced probably had the biggest effect on Vintage then anything else in the last five years. Do we ban all cards with storm? Of course not. I'm tired of hearing that Vintage is too parochial. Only a few archtypes can bcompete in Vintage  -or so some would have us believe. My experience has been to the contrary. I've seen Sui and Threshold make top eights in tournaments supported by competent players - thresh , btw, is a nightmare for Gifts decks when designed properly.

I do think we should make suggestions to the DCI as a group. But hastily banning cards is not a path I want to take. I heard the calls to restrict Extirpate when it was introduced and had a nice chuckle over it. Sure it can be strong but it will not destroy too many archtypes.
Trickbind did not stop Gifts.

If anything i agree with the sentiments that suggest we look at cards we can take off the restricted list. We are playing Vintage and yet Legacy can use multiples of cards we cannot. I understand that we have accelerants and powerful spells that make us hesitate to unrestrict certain cards but some of the restrictions were ludcrous ( eg, squirellcraft nerfed). I want to play in a format where powerful cards are encouraged asnlong as we have equally powerful answers.

The problem I have wishing for creatures is that they take a turn to be useful which can be a turn too long - artifact destruction can often be played the same turn I wish for it.
As for Channell, it is dead when you can mwin without it and it is dead when you have no win condition in hand ... I generally have not found mana production a problem in this build but hey ... if its working for you keep it. As I said our bulds are quite similar and I believe that one land belcher is the route to go now. EtW has added so much to the deck that we can now race other combo, not fear aggro at all, have outs against Stax, etc.
Belcher is not Gifts but at least its an alternative to what's being played -I'm tired of the stale old decks and happy that my belcher is at least viable once again. I did try shoving EtW into a goblin core but 'dirty kitty' type decks just are not Vintage ready.

Lochinvar81

I've played Belcher since early days and I think you are going in the right direction. I've been toying with a similar build - no blue or black.
I've also been testing a few main deck copies of Gamble for Welder tricks. I play a bit different package for ptotection as well ( EE, Blasts an Sprees ) but these are all tweaks to essentially the same deck and very meta dependent ( we jhave a lot of Stax and Fish along with Gifts here).
Here are a few questions though -
Living vs. Burning - Being able to wish for Meltdown, Primitive Justice or Pyroclasm is nice. With Living Wishes I almost always ended up Wishing for a Mishra's and nothing else.
Channel - I often found the two mana cost prohibitive early game unless running a few more Sphers or Stars which, IMHO, are much more conditional in this build.

With four Belcher/EtW main deck you usually will draw into a win condition quite early so the deck plays out quite well with the single taiga and absence of black. I think there is potential here.