have you considered cutting the the Mask combo and adding Negators, Lavamancers, Mesmeric Fiendand fishy type creatures?  Also, I feel 3 main deck Chains would the right number.  Maybe even 4. 

Holistic Wisdom can be some good as well.  Also, I'm a fan of Crater Hellion.

Don't forget Chains wrecks Combo as well, not to mention aggro control such as Fish.  IMO, the Chains should be main decked over Whispers.  It stops every deck in the field.  Like I said its the Null Rod of drawing cards.  Test it main, I have the results are outstanding.  And remember, it can always be sided out in the rare case your playing against a deck that doesn't draw cards.

Agreed!

Anyway, the deck is really powerful I'm surprised it doesn't see more play.  I've been testing it against alot of Control Slaver lately with a buddy.  Pre-sideboard I've been kicking his ass and even go 1 and 1 when he sideboards and I don't.  I'm surprised that Negator was having trouble with this match up.

On another note I've had Pyrostatic Pillar work nicely for me however there have been a few games that it has killed me and I don't think its quite as good as I once had.  The list I was playing was almost identical to Negator's list with the exception that I run 3 Pillars in the place of Chain Lightning.

I'm really interested in running 4 Red Elemental Blasts main deck.  Also, I still really feel this deck needs a way to draw cards and I don't think Skullclamp is the way to go.  Has anyone taken a peek at the next expansion to see if there was anything useful?

The last two guys gave you good advice.  Wretch is > than Hypnotic Specter.  You could go with Chalice or you could go with Null Rod, however I wouldn't cut the Nether Void for these slots, I'd cut the Hymn to Tourachs.  Powder Keg is ok however I'd splash a color for better removal.  A few months back Big Mac swept a 50+ man tourney with a Black White build that I've had great results with.  Anyhow you might want to bump your mana count up to 30 as the deck is really mana hungry.  I'd recommend a Mox Jet and a Black Lotus.

If you want to keep it mono black I'd recommend making the following adjustments:

-4 Hypnotic Specter 
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-3 Powder Keg
-1 Mind Twist
-1 Yawgmoth's Will


+4 Withered Wretch
+3 Null Rod / Chalice of the Void
+3 Diabolic Edict / Contagion
+2 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Black Lotus
+1 Mox Jet

This will put you at 61 cards, however I'm not sure what I'd cut to make it 60.  Either a Shade, a Wretch, or possibly a Tutor.  Your call.  Hope that helped a bit.  I'll try to find a link to Big Mac's Black White Control build.  It completely wrecks Slaver and holds its own to Aggro control such as Fish when sideboarded against.

Dark Confidant is really good.  I've been testing him a bit and he not only fits the mana curve, but he puts cards in your hand, and has a hot body.  Plus the damage I've taken from him has been minimal.  So far in testing many of my turns I only draw a land so there is no damage, and Chalice doesn't deal damage either.  He also works nice with Jitte's live gaining ability.  Plus he's not bad at all with Negator and Necro being the only spells over 2 and the rest of your mana curve looking like this:

5x - 3cc
18x - 2 cc
13x - 1 cc
23x - 0 cc


Chains is really freaking awesome.  Even if Dark Confidant is never released I think 3 Chains is mandatory.  Its one of the main reasons this deck even has a chance.  I can barely think of maybe 2 or 3 competetive decks right now that I would want to side them out against.  Fish packs Curiosity - Ninjas - Standstill, Workshop decks pack TFK- Ancestral, Dragon and Cerebral Assassin pack Bazaar, Oath packs Brainstorm - Ancestral - Accumulated Knowledge, TPS packs Brainstorm - Fact or Fiction - Skeletal Skrying, Tog, EBA, and a ton of other decks all pack a bunch of the previously mentioned draw spells.  Its the "Null Rod" of drawing cards, theres no excuse for it not to be in the deck, especially with all the discard going on.

The way I see it there is no way this deck will ever out draw Fish, Combo, or most control, so why not stop everyone else from drawing?  This shuts down everyting: Curiousity, Thirst for Knowledge, Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, Ninjas, and every other top deck out there.  I do really like Nights Whisper however as you said the deck is really mana hungry and Whisper costs B1.  Essentially it draws 2 cards the first card just replaces the Whisper and you really only get the bonus of the additional card it lets you draw.  One last thing, with all the discard in this deck it really seals the deal keeping your opponent from drawing into anything useful.

[EDIT] This is however all theory.  I don't want to bash Nights Whisper to hard as everytime I've drawn it I've been very pleased.


You might have a point.  I'm not totally sure if Graverobber is the correct creature, however it is a good cheap beatstick with a great ability.  Shade is good too however it is a bit mana hungry.  I'm still up in the air on this one.


I actually really do like Sinkholes in the Cabal Therapy slot.  You can only Duress your opponent so many times before they have nothing worth Duressing.  Sinkhole mixes it up a bit and has tight synergy when in conjunction with Strips and Chalice. 

On CoW, its nice but expesive as hell, this deck has a pretty tight mana base already.

The deck just really needs cheap fast spells to compete.

I'm really liking the Chains of Mephistophles over Nights Whisper idea.  Its all theory hoever there is no way in hell this deck will ever out draw Fish, so why not stop every other deck out there from drawing?  Also, Chains is powerful as a 1 - 3 of in the deck.  By cutting Nights Whisper you can run 2 or so Chains and then run Vampiric Tutor in place of another to search them out or to grab other bombs such as possibly Crucible or a lone Diabolic Edict.

Also I like what Shade88 mentioned that Nantuko Shade should be better than Graverobber.  I feel Nantuko Shade is best at a 3 of as drawing more than one can sometimes be dead.  Bumping Negator up to 4 seems like a better idea.  This would leave a creature set looking like.

4x Mesmeric Fiend
4x Negator
4x Wretch
3x Nantuko Shade

I can definately see bumping up Chalice to 4.  I don't have any problems with that, however I really feel Vial is better placed at three and having a swamp in place of its 4th.  On Hymn to Tourach I really feel either Cabal Therapy or Sinkhole is better.  Therapy is much more selective and Sinkhole lets you swing an extra turn.

Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Consultation are definately worth a slot.  Helps your grab swamps in poor draws plus other nice conditional cards such as Jitte ect...  Yawgmoth's Will definately deserves a slot too, however I wouldn't know what to cut.  Any other suggestions?

I have some suggestions.

While play testing the deck I feel it needs a stronger mana base.  12 Swamps seems to be correct as I was have a few mana problems at 10 swamps.  Also, I feel Vial can be bumped down to 3 in which case gives you room to add an additional swamp.  The other swamp can come from cutting 1 Chalice as running into multiples of Chalice can sometimes be a dead draw. 

My other suggestion is to swap Cabal Therapy with Sinkhole.  So far in my goldfishing it has been awesome.  First of all I feel the deck is already has enough discard disruption with Mesmeric Fiend and Duress.  However Chalice combined with Strip effects plus Sinkhole is really strong.  Crippling their mana base lets Negator swing an extra turn.

Also you might want to try Gate to Phyrexia in the side board to solve the artifact hate problem as you can make every creature in your deck a shatter. 

My list looks like this:

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Withered Wretch
4x Mesmeric Fiend
2x Nezumi Graverobber

3x Chalice of the Void
4x Sinkhole
4x Duress

4x Nights Whisper
1x Necropotence
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Aether Vial
4x Dark Ritual
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
12x Swamp

I also feel Sol Ring deserves a place however I can't seem to find room for it.  Anyway, these are my thoughts on the deck. 

This deck actually looks pretty good.  I just proxied it up on Apprentice and did a few goldfish draws and it felt really strong.  I'll have to do some testing.

Jitte is awesome with Nights Whisper and Necropotence as you can draw more cards and gain life.  Chalice is a tight substitute for Null Rod as it doesn't affect Vial.  Vial is nice with the draw aspects Nights Whisper ect...  The only change I made was Sinkholes in place of the Cabal Therapies.  However Therapies are nice with the Nezumi Graverobber as you can grab your sacked critter with them.  You could test Skeletal Scrying in place of Nights Whisper, I'm not sure which would be better for this list.  A color splash might not be too shabs so as to deal with Artifacts which seem to be the only glaring problem. 

EDIT:  You should really start your own thread on this deck and so as to not clutter up this one with deck lists.  If you do make a thread, I really see it not being moved to the newbie forum as long as you make good card descriptions and its tested a bit more with match up analysis.  Anyway, nice deck!

I see that draw 4's set the deck apart from draw 7's but whats the advantage?  Why would you want to use Infernal Contract, Meditate and such over Windfall, Twister, ect.....????

I'm interested in Mesmeric Fiend, however not interested enough to test them.  Like I mentioned before, they have a cool ability but they aren't much of a beat stick, they seem like they'ed fit much nicer in a Fish deck.  Imo, they're a bad Duress with the negative drawback your opponent has the chance to get back thier card.  I'd be much more interested if they came on a 2/2 body.

[EDIT] Grammar

Actually yes.  Its quite stunning, especially dropped 1st turn.  Not just against combo either, but also against other aggro matchups.



Personally I feel Rancor is much superior.  A first turn Land - Root Maze - ESG - Critter is hot, especially when Rancor can be played the following turn creating the tempo needed to kill your opponent before your deck runs out of juice.  Jitte won't hit the table equipped to a creature until much later in the game.  In any event the deck doesn't really need the removal aspects of the card as its already fairly loaded with Lightning Bots, Chain Lightnings, and Lavamancers.


I think you should look closer at Negators list and go by his.  However, Artifact Mutations and REB's are nice meta dependant additions and could possibly replace the 4 Naturalize in his list, but I wouldn't play 4 of both though.

Ok, I've been testing a pretty close list to Luiggi's lately, and I have been getting my ass beat.  Firstly I want to say that most of my 40 or so matches have been close, however its not aggressive enough to beat aggro and not controlling enough to beat control.  However, I do want to note that all of these matches were preside board.

First match up (which comes as no surprise) I've been testing it against Red/Green Beatz which hasn't even been a contest as Negator licks ass in this match up.  However, Meddling Mage isn't exactly stellar either as there really aren't any bombs worth naming that mage can stop.  This match up is horrible. 

Second match up, I've been testing it against Control Slaver.  This can be a close one and I can win a few here and there, however Slaver packs too many threats and in the end I get out countered, out drawn, and out played.  Somehow Welders seem to hit the table and its over.

Third match up, is Stax.  This one sucks too, I just can't deal with heavy amount of disruption and lock pieces.  To many threats to counter and not enough speed to close the deal. 

I'm going to tinker around with the build a bit, but I want to make some major changes.  Anyway, if anyone wants to test it a bit more I'd be interested in seeing how it fares against Dragon, Fish, FCG, and TPS.

I don't have anywhere near the experience with the deck however if you remember correctly the original builds (pre MUD, CoW, and Trinisphere) didn't run Strip effects as they were deemed unnecessary.  The other day I busted out my old outdated build (the build that ran no Wastes, Trinisphere, or Crucible) in a couple friendly games with a buddy of mine and surpisingly went 4 - 1 against Control Slaver and then went 4 - 0 against EBA.  Going back to the roots of the deck is this an area that could possibly be explored?  Or is it deemed so out-dated its not even worth testing?  I have to say I was really impressed that it could keep up with Slaver.

And what are the thoughts on Doug Goddards Welder build which ran main deck Phyrexian Furnace?

One last question, for what reason is Brainstorm not maindecked in both Welder and non Welder versions?  Is this due to the lack of Fetchies for reshuffling?

Recently, 5 Stax decks made top 15 at the P9 SCG and Control Slaver was no where to be found.  I see Stax making a strong come back and wanted to discuss every thing from Trinisphere to Wasteland / Crucible lock.

Lets start with the creature set and win conditions, Karn and Trike have been the staple kill conditions.  I've seen splashes of Platinum Angel, Sundering Titan, Pentavus, Darksteel Colossus, and even yester years old school Time Vault as win conditions.  What is the optimal creature set?  Currently, I've been running Angel, Trike, and Karn.  Personally, I feel this is optimal, however what is the reasoning for running anything outside of this?

CoW / Strip effect lock*  A turn one Sphere of Resistance seems good, but the CoW / Strip - lock  isn't the monster it used to be without Trinisphere.  All five lists in the top 15 included Crucible / Strip - lock, however I remember old school Stax builds where it was said (and I fully agree) that the deck operates fine without the inclusion Wasteland.  As it is, the deck already has a lock.  Could the deck operate better by simply focusing on its main lock mechanism and omitting Crucible / Strip effects?  Now that Trinisphere has been restricted, it doesn't seem quite as necessary.  This being said, by ommiting 5 strip effects and 2-3 CoW's the deck could be retroactively upping its counterable threats by 5 and upping the total amount of open slots by 8.  These slots can be used for either establishing the main lock (removal, draw, counters) or  create pressure by upping the beat sticks with Juggernaught or Su-Chi's.  Has anybody toyed with?   Am I way off?

Removal slots*  Balance seems to be the main removal card in the 5 color builds, but what else is there?  Fire/Ice, Serrated Arrows, StP, Lava Dart,  ect..  One that I've been considering is Waterfront Bouncer.  Bounces creatures that usually can't be recast and discards artifacts.  Just a thought though.

Discuss.

 

Good call on the Pillar.  Thats pretty funny.  I've recently been testing them and Ankh (think I like the Pillars better).  What clued me in was a Sligh deck that actually placed decently at one of the SCG tourneys that was running them both.  I figured R/G Beatz has more tools tools than Sligh why not give em a shot. 

So far it does jack against Workshop Aggro, IMO that match up needs a lot of work.  I think 4 side board Goblin Vandal should do the trick also should be gold against Workshop Prison, Stax and such.  And yes it provides some very necessary speed in the Oath match up, which I feel is much better due to its inclusion.

Precisely!

What do you mean by this statement? 

True, you never know though.  Could make High Tide viable...  Probably not but who knows what else it might spring up?

If you want to do some fun experiments try tossing a foil card in the microwave or try the bend test.

I see "Ideas Unbound" being restricted in September.  Sorcery or not it's seriously way way to strong in combo and could possibly find its way into a 4 card draw engine in the form of control much like Gush was to GAT a few years back.  Then there's the fact it not only draws cards, but it also puts shit in graveyard.  I see all sorts of possibilities and potential.

Mesmeric Fiend is definately some good.  Not a good beater though, what were you pulling out for its inclusion?  One of the more noticable things that sets this deck apart from WU Tang Fish is that it has fewer creatures but makes up for the lack with heavier beat sticks than 1/1's.  What did your creature set look like? 

Skeletal Scrying is really good, however I haven't tested it in this deck yet.  Lately I've been running 4x Phids which haven't let down yet. 

   

Actually Luiggi, I think your deck looks pretty solid.  As I mentioned before about Withered Wretch True Believer and such, I definately think they are viable in a Vial based deck, however thats a different deck and I won't muddle up your thread with it. 

I've been play testing your deck alot since you posted this thread (with minor changes) and have had some decent results.  As far as the list you posted goes, I feel the weakest slot is Negator.  Negator is tits and everything, however he's hugely meta dependent.  Either way, I really don't have suggestions outside of Angel and Serendib as they're the only thing I can think of thats decent and also a good Drain sink.  Withered Wretch would wreck some shit if his cc wasn't double black, his ability makes an awesome Drain sink outside of wrecking half the top decks right now.  I really feel if Negator is main decked Mother of Runes should be warranted a slot (or at least tested).  Not only to protect Negator, but also to protect Phid and M. Mage.  And if not Mother of Runes then I feel Misdirection should at least be warranted that slot instead.

Another slot is Sword of Fire and Ice.  Is Jitte better for this deck?  I see this becoming the next big debate since the old school Orim's Chant vs. Abeyance debate.

Here's the list I've been testing:

4x Meddling Mage
3x Phyrexian Negator
3x Ophidian
3x Mother of Runes


4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Duress

4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

3x Sword of Fire and Ice / Umezawa's Jitte
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Time Walk

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Sol Ring
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tundra


Decks aren't terribly different:
Cunning Wish is ran main with StP and Disenchant on the sb amongst others.
The lone StP sits by its self main deck and not replaced with another Wish as its needed to be main decked so as to be searched out by Mystical and Demonic Tutor.
I run 1 less Negator, 1 less StP, one more SoFI, +3 Mother of Runes,  ect..   

To be honest I think your deck list is pretty tight.  Its got a good amount of draw, and has answers, however a couple cards come to mind:

1). Have you considered Aether Vial?  Imo, the deck is screaming for it.  Lets you plop out uncounterable creatures while you sit back with mana drain ready, counts as accel, and also counts as a mana fixer.

2). Cunning Wish or Vindicate seem not shitty for the same obvious reasons.

3). Negator could be swapped out for more utility creatures.  Imo, (I know the cc is fucked, but) a combination of True Believer and Withered Wretch would be insane if you could get them on the table via Aether Vial (if you choose to go that route).  They could always be sided out for Negator in the control match ups too.

Just some ideas though.  I really like what you already have going.  Another card (I'm not sure what to cut or if it is even necessary) but Mother of Runes is sick with Negator and also great with Meddling Mage.

Yeah, thats a decent one.  Deck Parfait meaning the perfect deck in French.  I always really liked the variant name Cherry Parfait, assuming that it was a desert rather than the perfect deck.

True, but Fruity Pebbles is what started it all.  Then came Cocoa Pebbles with the splash of black for Necropotence then the rest just followed without any meaning what so ever except that they were named after cereals Wheaties and such.

His deck was hilarious, it orginally ran Ironclaw Orcs and other random crap commons.  Nothing like the Sligh decks as of late (not that anyone has played it in the last year, but what the fuck?)

@Klep- (not that shouldn't already know this) Fruity Pebbles originally garnered its name as a metaphor relating to being  plinked to death by Goblin Bombardment and being killed by a shower of pebbles.   I guess its not totally totally totally clear but its fun in a not quite hit you over the head with a frying pan Miracle Gro sort of way.

Lucky me, I was born on my birthday.