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Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Old School Magic in New York! New Website & Format!
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on: March 21, 2016, 01:38:16 pm
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(I'm not gonna quote everything you've said as you've done for me, 'cause I don't have a lot more to say. I'm mindful of the problems with quoting out of context, but I'm trying to be fair, anyway.)
I also am mindful of any problems with quoting, but use quotes in order to help readers know exactly what I am responding to. You are reading a one sentence blurb on a website from a European Group, and then ascribing that specific elements to the broader universe of communities with similar interests. Why are you citing that website to support what *you* like about Old School Magic? In my first post, I was talking about what the Swedish 93-94 group originally intended, This is my point: why? What this New York format, or any other format, have to do with that exactly, other than being another expression of Old School? You came out of the gates saying: I really, really hate that both of these formats allow CE. I'm not thrilled about allowing FBB cards, either. So, you hate formats that permit CE, etc. In doing so, it reads as an attack on this New York variant that is the subject of this thread, as well as the Norcal and EC communites you also mentioned in your post. Yet, my point, which I think you finally understand, is that you were ascribing the interests and goals of the Swedish group to all of these other communities, and then, in rather inflammatory language, condemning these other groups. Taking you at your word, that you were simply judging these other formats on what "The swedish group intended," you must have been assuming that all of these communities shared the Swedish group's goals. But there is absolutely no reason to assume that. That's simply unwarranted. Nor, I should add, is there any reason to assume that the quotes you've taken from Magnus' blog should be taken as the consensus views of the entire Swedish group. They may not have been parsing their views that finely. which was my basis for calling one format a pale imitation of another. I was talking specifically about 93-94, which is what the Swedish group calls the format, after all. In your response, I thought you were telling me that that wasn't what the Swedish group intended. You specifically mentioned 93-94 by name. That's the only reason that I quoted that other site. I wasn't trying to say that also applied to the US formats. Rereading this thread, I can see that there has been some miscommunication. Indeed. In your opening post you began by saying "these formats." These formats include the 93/94 Swedish Group, but also include those that are not created by and for that group. Therefore, by your own words, you were drawing conclusions and making judgements on behalf of a much broader class of formats. You were condemning any Old School format that permits CE/IE. And on fairly absurd terms, as well. Consider: the fact that you place so much importance on the "struggle" compared to the many other magnificent benefits/goals that I listed in my previous post that flow from Old school Magic is, imo, strange, to say the least. It's like enjoying Opera primarily for the choreography or scenery rather than the music or performances. It's not impossible to comprehend; it just misses the point. You are entitled to your subjective opinion on that point - but you are not entitled to conclude that any other format is just a "bastardization" of what Old School is or should be. That's just your opinion, and not an objective assessment. But that's just silly. Come now, of course I am entitled to conclude that one format is just a ""bastardization"" of another. Surely you aren't saying that I'm not entitled to my own opinion, here, right? Also, whenever anybody says anything in the Internet, isn't it already pretty obvious that that it's just a subjective opinion? You should mentally add "I think that..." to the start of every sentence you read (including this one). I would think you already know this and so it's very awkward for me to even point it out. So, what exactly is the point of calling attention to the subjectivity of what I've said? When do you think I ever represented myself as objectively right? I think you are confused on the difference between an opinion and an argument/assertion. This is Logic 101 (literally - as in, it would be taught in any introductory logic course.) An argument or assertion is a claim. Claims, under the rules of logic, are subject to dispute and require support. Support can be offered in the form of either empirical evidence or reasoning (such as mathmatical or deductive reasoning). Opinions ("I like Ice Cream") do not require support for validity. Claims/arguments do. (I should add that adding "I think" or "I feel" to a statement does not render a claim a mere opinion. Whether a statement is a claim or an opinion is determined by it's substance, not it's framing). You said: the various US-based versions of the format are downright bastardized versions of this good idea This is a claim. In order for the claim to be true, then the premises must also be true, and the conclusion must flow from the premises. My main point in this thread, in responding to you, has been to demonstrate a flaw in the premise, that the formats share the same goal. They don't. Therefore, I am contesting your claim. I agree that I have an opinion that not many people in the US share and one that's probably pretty hard to identify with by readers of this site. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know. But TMD isn't a hive mind- I don't see why anything I'm saying here is so incindiary.
It's because your argument was both based upon a mistaken (erroneous) premise, as well as the inflammatory tone of your post (the use of words like "bastardization," "lying to themselves," etc.). |
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Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Old School Magic in New York! New Website & Format!
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on: March 20, 2016, 11:44:39 pm
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What's "hardcore" about the format isn't the barrier to entry - but the attempt to preserve the vision and feel of what the Type I metagame felt like in 1994 or 1995 or even 1996 (for those version that permit cards from those years). It has to do with what it felt like with T1 Juzam or Hypnotic Scepter was a devastating play. Or what it's like to be Sceptre locked. It has nothing to do with budgets. You miss the point entirely.
No, I don't think you are right. Is there something you think I'm misunderstand here? http://oldschool-mtg.blogspot.com/p/historik.html?m=093/94, Old School Mtg, started 2007 in the casual Magic scene in Gothenburg, Sweden, and have since grown with players across the world. A total of seven sets are allowed in the format; Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends and The Dark. Non-English versions and reprints after Unlimited are considered proxies, and 93/94 is not played with proxies. The hard, time consuming and expensive road to build most decks is considered an important feature of the format. You play with what you own, and try to find what you need. Yes, there is something you are misunderstanding. You are reading a one sentence blurb on a website from a European Group, and then ascribing that specific elements to the broader universe of communities with similar interests. Why are you citing that website to support what *you* like about Old School Magic? There are many reasons that people play Old School. But, for the communities of interest that I am aware of and interact with, the element you deem to be "most important" probably does not even make the top 3. See: http://www.vintagemagic.com/blog/back-to-the-future-an-introduction-to-old-school-magic/As I said: Old school Magic is the perfect setting for not only learning about the history of the game, but experiencing it firsthand. It’s a place where you may not only explore the past, but relive it. In Old School Magic, history is no longer a dry lesson, but a playground. It’s a place where cards like Juzam Djinn, Mirror Universe, Serra Angel, and the great beasts and artifacts of yore, long superseded by more powerful creations, still reign supreme.
Old School Magic is a venue where you can act out your favorite strategies and historical moments.“The Deck” is not simply an artifact of history, but a fierce weapon to be used against your friends and enemies. It is a place where Necropotence is not a just a catchphrase or a symbol but a real strategy, and where one of the most feared and exciting combination in the game is Channel-Fireball. There are many reasons that people play Old School. I would rank (in no particular order): 1) flavor, 2) nostalgia, 3) different metagame dynamics than exist in modern Magic, 4) an interest in history, etc., 5) original art aesthetics as all more important than the "struggle" to acquire cards.
Furthermore, if you don't think artificially high barrier to entry is an intended feature of the format, I'd love for you to explain why it is that the Swedish rules disallow stuff like Revised.
By "The Format" you are referring to Swedish 93/94, but that is not the same thing as "Old School Magic." I define Old School Magic as follows: Old School Magic refers to a broad class of historical formats or derivations thereof. It is any format that features sets of the past and excludes recently printed sets. In that sense, it’s the opposite of Standard (or, perhaps more accurately, the anti-Standard), which only permits recent sets, while accommodating nearly infinite variety. Virtually any Vintage format of the past or its predecessors (such as Type I, or simply the original Constructed Magic format) count as Old School Magic. Specific examples include the constructed Magic format played at the first Magic World Championship, and the Type I format as of January 1, 1995. However, it may also refer to non-historical formats, formats such as the Type II format from the 1995 World Championship with a different Banned and Restricted List, or a Commander variant permitting only sets legal through Alliances.
The most well-known expression of Old School Magic is: 93/94. As I said in my article, that is merely one of an infinite number of expressions of Old School magic. They disallow Revised for flavor reasons as much as exclusivity/elitism. Revised detracts, in their view, from the full richness experienced when playing the format because it is not as aesthetically attractive. They are in the minority view on that point. If you think it's all about "pimpness" as you've said above, then why not allow, say, FBB? That was certainly considered pretty fancy back in the olden days that I can remember.
I agree that the format is intended to recapture the feel of the original early 90s MTG scene, as you say, but I fail to see why you seem to think this isn't supposed to include the dynamic of card scarcity and high required personal investment that was every bit a part of the format as getting Scepter-locked.
Because that wasn't true for everyone. I played in a community of players from 1993-95 where everyone in my group - about a dozen high school friends of mine - had every card we wanted. I never really faced resource constraints of the kind you described. I had a fully Beta variant of The Deck I played (and designed myself) in 1994 and 1995 in many tournaments in the midwest when I was just 14 and 15. I can remember playing in many local and regional tournaments, like Orb Con, prepubescent, with a fully powered and Beta-fied UW control deck. Moreover, it's not about what is "supposed" to or "not supposed to." Your incredibly rigid and narrow view of what's happening here is I think part of the problem. There are many different goals and many different ways of achieving those goals. Some communities emphasize scarcity; some don't. Scarcity is by definition part of the format, but Revised was released in 1994, even before the Dark. For those communities that wish to emphasize the other goals first and foremost, then permitting Revised is a perfectly reasonable trade off, and not a "bastardization." That's just ridiculous.
Granted, the $$$ isn't viewed as a good thing by many players (and I might point out that getting Scepter locked isn't very positive experience, either), but it seems to be pretty explicitly made clear in the part I quoted.
Yes it is. But your error is assuming that every Old School community seeks the same goals. There are many reasons to play Old School.
The US takes on organized old school Magic- formats that are only slightly more exclusive than Legacy- simply appear to have different goals from the Swedish one- a format far more exclusive than even Vintage. The difference in exclusivity, primarily due to the difference in attitudes toward CE, make the US versions a lot less interesting to me, though. It might not surprise you that I've also never been a fan of Vintage proxy events, either.
You are entitled to your subjective opinion on that point - but you are not entitled to conclude that any other format is just a "bastardization" of what Old School is or should be. That's just your opinion, and not an objective assessment. Personally, I think CE/IE are really nice. The cards tend to be of higher quality condition, and have the rich flavor that brings Alpha and Beta into the format. I would much rather look at a CE Black Lotus than an Unlimited one. Don't others agree? |
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Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Old School Magic in New York! New Website & Format!
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on: March 20, 2016, 08:59:21 pm
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I really, really hate that both of these formats allow CE. I'm not thrilled about allowing FBB cards, either.
93/94 was evidently orginally intended as a "hardcore" throwback format and to restore an old school sense of making a serious investment to be able to play (a non-budget deck) that absolutely was a part of Magic's early culture.
No. Old School Magic formats, including 93/94, were intended to give people a space to experience old school formats, whose metagames, strategies, and dynamics greatly different from that of constructed formats today. The Swedish group indeed tried to maximize "pimpness," etc and keep the barrier to entry higher, but what you are saying is patently false. Moreover, the Swedish groups have long encouraged various budget decks, like WW.
I feel like the various US-based versions of the format are downright bastardized versions of this good idea;
Well, that's your mistake - the US versions didn't arise as bad variants of Swedish versions. The first US "Throwback" tournaments were held years ago, and without knowledge of the Swedish groups. Nor is there only one "good idea." I'd argue, and I think more would agree with me than you on this point, that the point of the formats is to give players a feel for the metagames and power levels of Old School magic - formats that no longer exist - not to try to recreate the dynamics of money and investment that existed then and today.
the people that think of the NorCal or Eternal Central Old School formats as "hardcore" are just lying to themselves, IMO. In actuality, these are budget formats that have a barrier to entry marginally higher than that of Legacy.
What's "hardcore" about the format isn't the barrier to entry - but the attempt to preserve the vision and feel of what the Type I metagame felt like in 1994 or 1995 or even 1996 (for those version that permit cards from those years). It has to do with what it felt like with T1 Juzam or Hypnotic Scepter was a devastating play. Or what it's like to be Sceptre locked. It has nothing to do with budgets. You miss the point entirely. |
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Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See?
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on: March 10, 2016, 06:10:11 pm
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I think diversity is important for the health of the format, and that includes non-blue decks and a diversity of blue options. That said, I was getting a bit tired of watching and commenting on matches in which every single match involved a Workshop deck, which seemed to be the case in the last few weeks. Workshops are good for the format, in my opinion, but when every match involves a Workshop deck, a good deal of what happens in vintage isn't visible to the audience.
I don't see the "gentlemen's agreement" as an attempt to avoid playing non-blue decks as much as it was an attempt to showcase some other Vintage dynamics and lines of play that weren't likely without such an agreement. Shops are so good right now that without an agreement, it's a high probability event that every match would have had Shops on one side or the other.
I suspect that the finals matches will be a huge shop fest. I hope I'm wrong, though.
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Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Old School @ Eudemonia - February 28th, 2016
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on: February 29, 2016, 12:22:50 am
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This was an unbelievable tournament. We had 15 people - sad more couldn't show up. But I really feel like our metagame has reached the next level. My main criticism of Old School is that, compared to vintage, sometimes the games are overly simplistic and linear. My match against Heiner Litz was one of the most complicated games of magic I have EVER played. It was incredible. I had 2 Icys, 3 Relic Barriers, and Winter Orb against his 2 Relic Barrier (one of which was a copy artifact), 1 Icy, Howling MIne and Trike. I feel like our tinkering has produced the perfect environment. Thanks for coming, and for folks who couldn't, I actually feel bad for you  |
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Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / TheManaDrain.com - New Direction?
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on: February 23, 2016, 01:36:59 am
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From the front page: Hey guys, it's Andy Probasco, your friendly neighborhood Brass Man - new owner and operator of www.themanadrain.com. I'm sorry for the delay in putting up this message. There was only expected to be a short downtime, and this message was going to be delayed until a redesign in a few weeks. Some technical problems made that impossible, so I wanted to let everyone know what's going on. Vintage was once described to me as "The format where every player in the top 8 gets dinner together afterwards." There are many things I love about vintage but this is the core truth that makes vintage a part of my life. My closest friends are the people I learned the game with, and the people I met while playing. When TheManaDrain.com was founded over a decade ago, there weren't many ways to play "Type 1". There was no Vintage Championship, and if you weren't one of the lucky few players to live near a vintage shop, there was no way to learn about it. The TMD community changed all that, it set a new standard with strategy content and major vintage tournaments like Waterbury and the Bazaar of Moxen. In a few years Wizards of the Coast and StarCityGames picked up that ball and ran with it. Today we have a passionate international community. We just had the largest Vintage championship ever. Players anywhere in the world can play in tournaments every week on Magic Online. There are more Vintage writers, streamers and podcasters than ever before, and the Vintage Super League broadcasts Hall of Fame players battling alongside community pillars. Vintage has never been bigger or better than it is today. But TMD has not caught up. Here's my vision for how we could. TheManaDrain is the hub of vintage TMD can't be the only source for Vintage content online - but if you visit TMD every day, you shoudn't miss anything. If there's something going on in Vintage, I want a link to it. If you're producing vintage content, I want to use TMD to direct people to it, whether it's paid or free, even if it's a link to a "competeing" website, because in vintage, the competition should all be willing to grab dinner with each other after the event. TheManaDrain is the landing page for new players If you had never played vintage before, and you wanted to learn about it, how would do it? If you google "Vintage Magic the Gathering" today, themanadrain shows up on the third page, and that result is a year-old thread. The vintage community has been doing a great job getting new players into the format. TMD hasn't been doing as well. If you meet someone who sounds interested in vintage, I want you to be confident that you can give them a link to www.themanadrain.com, and they'll be able to quickly learn the ropes, learn the terminology, and learn what makes the Vintage community so great. This means cultivating a community where new players aren't afraid to ask questions, but it also means designing the site in a way that people can quickly find information that matters to them. TheManaDrain is the greatest community of magic players in the world To me, vintage has always been about relationships over cards. Not because "it's only a game." It's been so much bigger to me than a game. Competition is important to me. I love it and I love how it pushes people. But I know that competition with friends is as good at is possibly gets. Some people think that high-level competition and a welcoming community are at odds - but I know nothing could be more complementary. The kind of vintage player I want on TheManaDrain: reaches out to new players, is never hateful or exclusionary has strong opinions about the game, but expresses them in a civil way is happy to post about what they've been playing, but never exaggerates or lies about results is gracious in victory and humble in defeat contributes to the community at large, by running or attending tournaments, writing articles, producing video content If that's NOT you? I don't want to kick you out - I want to win you over. Try it out, you might be surprised. I'm going to investigate reputation/karma systems to help the community police itself, but it might be a while before we find the right fit. I'm not going post a codified list of bannable offenses. If those values don't resonate with you, don't worry - there are other places to talk about vintage, and you probably wouldn't have liked this site, anyway. How are we going to get there? Together, and probably not without making some mistakes. Over the next few weeks we're going to see some changes. If you don't like the direction things are going, tell me. There will be a metadiscussion board for talking about the direction of the site, but if you have concerns in the meantime you can email me at aprobasco@gmail.com, or message me on facebook as tmdBrassMan. I'll update this page with any new information about the site's status. I'm really looking forward to making TheManaDrain the greatest community in magic again Thanks, - Andy Probasco Really excited for the Probasco era, and the community control of this site. When I saw that TMD was down, I had flashbacks to what happened with BDominia. I'm sure Andy will have much more to say, but since no one had started a thread on this, I thought folks would like to comment, starting with myself  Great to have TMD back! |
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Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays Podcast Episode 50: Oath of the Gatewatch
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on: January 29, 2016, 06:25:45 pm
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From the Comprehensive Rules (Oath of the Gatewatch (January 16, 2016))
702.116. Surge
702.116a Surge is a static ability that functions while the spell with surge is on the stack. “Surge [cost]” means “You may pay [cost] rather than pay this spell’s mana cost as you cast this spell if you or one of your teammates has cast another spell this turn.” Paying a spell’s surge cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h. Snapcaster Mage is still pretty good with Crush of Tentacles as it lets you reuse the comes into play ability but it does not work with Surge. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/SurgeYes - Snapcaster Mage specifies that you can't use alternative costs, so you couldn't pay a Surge cost on a spell targeted with SCM. But Snapcaster Mage supports Surge in the sense that it is a proactive spell that can be played on the opponent's turn to get to Surge. I was responding to the point that was made above that flashback is not "casting." According to its definition, flashback IS casting spells, so a flashbacked spell should trigger Jori, En. |
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Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays Podcast Episode 50: Oath of the Gatewatch
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on: January 29, 2016, 06:06:16 pm
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Almost done with the podcast. I feel like you guys misread Jori, however. She does not trigger whenever you cast the second spell each turn. It's whenever you cast YOUR second spell each turn. I.e. casting a counter spell does NOT auto draw you a card like you seemed to suggest.
Does this change your prediction?
No, we read the card correctly. That's why we emphasized cards like Snapcaster Mage. Oh. Well, without snappy, why did you guys say that as soon as the opponenr plays a spell on their turn, it's easy for you to draw off Jori? I thought you were saying that when you counter a spell, you draw a card. No, I was saying that I think that a deck designed to do so could reliably trigger Jori 4 out of 6 turns (sequenced between yourself and your opponent). Snapcaster Mage helps because he's got flash, and can be played on your opponent's turn, proactively.
You can't Tiago in a Surge card for the same reason you can't Tiago in a Force of Will or Gush for their alternative costs. He doesn't let you cast the card; he gives it Flashback equal to it's mana cost.
I assumed that flashbacked spells were cast - as they add to storm, hit the stack in the same way, etc. I thought a flashback spells would trigger Jori, but you are saying they do not? Flashback is defined as "casting" a card, so I assumed that it satisfied the requirements for triggering Jori: 702.33a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and another that functions while the card is on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Casting a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h. |
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Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Old School @ Eudemonia - February 28th, 2016
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on: January 25, 2016, 01:44:05 am
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Really excited to announce this: http://www.eudogames.com/magic/160228-old-school-magic NorCal Old School Magic Sunday, February 28th @ 1 PM $25 entry fee In-store registration opens at noon No proxies No reprints — only actual printings from legal sets are allowed Black bordered cards are highly encouraged Foreign language cards are okay CE & IE edition are Legal: Collector's Edition and International Edition sets are legal for this tournament, but only if they are in decks that are double or triple sleeved (the latter being preferred). Click the link for all of the details! SPREAD THE WORD!! I have many cards I can loan out, so just PM me with your needs, and I'll let you know what you can borrow. PLEASE NOTE: POWER ARTIFACT is unrestricted for this event, a chance from our last tournament. Who is coming!? |
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