I haven't been able to play vintage in near a year now since i moved, but i recognized the power of poppet a while back. I just spitballed a deck from the TMWA shell that i had, but I used cry of contrition and blood pet in addition to the cabal therapies and duress. I know it sounds really janky, but since none of the cards were really dependent on each other it played consistently and since the costs were so low the blood pets with moxes proved to be disgusting at times. like  bloodpet+cry of contrition+cabal therapy/duress

EDIT: I also wanted to add my congradulations on making hulk-flash cry. you seem to have an amazing matchup against it

Where: Genesis games    genesisgamesonline.com

When: April 14th 2pm

entry: $25

Prizes
1st Mox Ruby or Pearl, winner's choice
2nd Playset of Force of wills
3-x Depend on showing, with plenty of great stuff!!!

Looking for a great competitive tournament so we are looking for at least 20 people, but I don't think that will be a problem. The tournement is a month before the grand prix to allow people to test out their decks and allow plenty of time for refinements. Tell everyone that Texas finally has a tournament worth traveling to!

The strengthe of the card isn't from removing the stuff people weld for (though it could be), but to remove the welders themselves. Same with fish, you don't have to remove the white mana to be effective. Once you remove the force of wills and/or lock pieces fish is a sitting duck. At the least this card punishes decks that don't rely on broken spells. There wasn't much wiggle room for people to make metagamed vintage decks (i.e. fish, hide/seek control, etc...) but now there is even less.

I understand what you are saying, but the way decks like this, and TMWA work is by subly denying resources so there are no explosive top decks. I haven't seen a top tier vintage deck that MD pyroclasms or Jitte's and even with the jitte the lavamancers and darkblast, along with bounce, can usually moderate it. Additionally, pyrocalsm is only a GG if you overextend yourself, which is just bad strategy. Yawgoth is a beast no matter how you look at it, but with keeping their graveyard in check (extircate) have keeping their storm count low (chalice) it's usually not a problem. Also, the decks that run it usually save back up with their own countermagic, making yours a nuisance at best, which is why i said blue is good in a U/W fish build, but not in a build like this.

I like the idea of URB fish, but i think the build is a little heavy on blue (bear with me). I used to play U/R fish and *loved* it, but since i have been back from a long magic break I started to come to the conclusion that wizards is putting the screws to blue (i give a light list as to how in the expircate topic in the legacy forum). Because of that I think the URB skeleton should be taken from a deck more like TMWA (a fantastic deck that served me well) rather than a blue based fish skeleton. If there were still vintage tournaments around here (Texas isn't vintage friendly either) I would think of something more along these lines.

Creature Base: 13
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Dimir Curpurse
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Goblin Vandal (if you are worried about your stacks matchup)

Permission: 13
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Duress
4 Extirpate (take out the deck enablers/mana)
2 Stifle

Utility: 11
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Rebuild
1 Darkblast

Other: 2
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor

Mana Base: 21
3 Sapphire/Jet/Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

I think not relying on FOW and being more proactive rather than reactive gives you a better matchup against combo (spare that first turn on the play kill, which happens with any deck) and stacks (with the vandals). The discard, wastelands, and stifles help get their cards in the graveyard for the extripate while denying them resources, and with stacks, their lock pieces, which is really the key for this deck. Also, the 4 MD extirpates give you an amazing matchup against ichorid, which is a problem deck, but probably won't be after this card. To be honest I think that, unless it's U/W fish, black should be favored over blue since it's more proactive and controlling, but blue should be abused for it's card draw and bounce. I think the Dimir's cound be cut for ninja's, but i like the lower cc for the confidants and they force discard *and* draw, which is graet card advantage.  

Cotv is important in this type of deck (if anything i would try to make room for 4 MD). with the bounce and artiface destruction you can render their moxes useless (relatively.

I would think that with all the draw even if you wanted to run replenish one would be sufficient, one of their spaces should go to fact or fiction and the other could go to mystical tutor. I like the idea of the deck because its card advantage is unheard of, but in order for it to be done correctly I think you should go straight landstill and just SB the meddling mages. Also, maybe with all the available mana adding black for disruption would be a good idea, depending on your meta. I think at least a couple disks would be necessary since you don't sport a lot of removal. From the list i would say that rogue decks like TMWA and fish decks, especially U/W, would tear you apart. Null Rod *can* be a problem, but with all the draw and a mystical tutor you could always bounce it then pop the disk.

So what do you think should be sided out for the rack and ruins, and sacred grounds? (I am also considering a 3-1 count rather than a 2-2 since chalice can be killer) I figure hide/seek gets rid of all the creatures in stacks (spare welder), but both keep the creature from being welded(?) back into play and the hide/seek is overall a bit more versatile. I could cut out the magma jets, but they are good welder killers and help with card quality. that then just leaves the tutors, which are certainly not coming out, and the creatures, which are already devistating enough against stacks. I can bump out a genju, but that still leaves 3 spots, and i won't take out both since his clock is amazing.

The stacks round is definitely not a by, but i have found that it is much easier for TMWA to come back from a faulty start than it is for stacks. If they don't close out the game in the first couple turns they don't seem to win. But to make the match a little easier on me i am thinking of adding another sacred ground into my SB, filling one of the 3 extra spots. I figure i will just side in two sacred grounds and two rack and ruins. I think i would just side out the 4 swords for them, since no stacks deck around here runs darksteel, but their first turn welder always keeps me on my toes.

I am also thinking of ditching that entomb since i can't figure out what to cut for it. The instants are as tight as they could really get and that just leaves the creatures and artifacts. If i had the room i would add a 4th crypt so i don't want to cut anymore from the artifacts and the only creature i could really see cutting would be the 3rd confidant, but he is much better than entomb.

Part of me thinks of adding the mox jet, but i dont know how i really feel about that. It's mono color app doesn't make it as useful as i would like, but there are times when i would like to be able to EOT enlightened tutor for the jet to fix my mana. I don't know if it's worth it but sometimes i find myself tutoring for a mox (once i had to actually do it for the win  in semis against stacks).

The build I am currently working on isn't finalized yet, but here is how it is looking so far.

Creatures 15
4 Goblin Welder
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Dark confidant

Artifacts 7
3 Tormod's crypt
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 Crucible of worlds
1 Umezawa's jitte

enchantments 2
2 genju of the spires

Spells 14
4 STP
4 Magma jet
4 hide/seek
1 enlightened tutor
1 vampiric tutor
 
lands 22
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 plateau
3 bloodstained mire
2 badlands
2 windsewpt heath
1 stripmine
1 scrubland
1 mountain
1 wooded foothills

SB
4 duress
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 sacred ground
2 rack and ruin
1 tormod's crypt
3 ?

I still prefer the old build because i find it to be a bit more controlling, which is what i tended to want more of in my matches. I like to play 4 welders because they will always have a use with one MD jitte (which i will explain later) and I also like them because they flush out those forces, which i am almost always happy with since that card disadvantage can really hurt them. I keep going back and forth in my head on gorilla shamans and vandals, but i think i finally decided on shamans, they tend to be more destructive (as far as quantity) and more useful against decks that aren't stacks, but run power. I also like them because with them i don't really need to rely on null rod. Yes the combo decks can keep the mana in their hands until they want to combo out, but keeping them in their hands slows their deck down enough, also i found, especially against decks like gifts, null rod wouldn't really matter since they would just play the mox and then search for the bounce when they wanted to combo out and there wasn't much i could do about it. I like the MD crypts since I find them more advantagous than null rod against stacks and gifts. They cost nothing (so no need to worry about drain) and since they cost nothing i can just throw it out there against stacks to use as tanglewire fodder, and a lot of stacks builds already MD null rods so that gives an idea as to how useful that card really is.

The jitte. I decided to MD jitte since this deck has some issues should it ever play a jank deck and jitte just tears those apart. it's also great to get out in the first game against fish decks and is just a good kill condition. My only reservation is its mana intensive nature. I don't like paying 2cc for a card that isn't immediately useful. With the cc in :this deck being so low: there being 1cc tutors: monkeys needing mana: and the genju: a 2cc card can really slow it down, so it better be immediately useful so the deck doesn't lose its in game edge.

I don't like the grunt because i find it gets chumped block fairly often and even though it denies graveyards, it doesn't do it at instant speed, which is key against gifts. i would rather just wipe out their chump blockers with lavamancer and swing with a genju. I know, and have though about kris mage, but i think this decks lack of cardadvantage is a weakness that shouldn't be made worse. I am starting to think of a competing TMWA build that exploits the syntergy between the kris mages, grunts, and welders, but it would need to be another type of build almost entirely (In the details) and not a hybrid. 

I am also still considering MD entomb, but i can't seem to find any around here so i haven't really playtested it yet. I figure with the welderns and crucible it can work as an *very* effective tutor. There is the chance of it being a dead draw, but i view it like I would a mox. If i draw it past the first few turns, i am not happy to see it; it's not all that useful, but when it is in the opening hand it's explosive. With entomb, yes it could be a dead draw, but when it isn't i can see it deciding the game. It's a tutpr that gets around mana cost for the spell, with welder, and with crucible you can just fetch out the strip mine, which tends to just make people concede on the spot.


I should probably add my meta consists of combo (gifts and now maybe a grimlong), stax, sullivan solution, counter goblns and foodchain goblins (I tend to outlast both so i have never actually played either, but am slighly worried about them) and the rest is varied. with U/R slaver and such. I am having problems optomizing my deck in the environment and especially the sb. so any help would be great.

goblins is rough so I am thinking more jittes, maybe SOFAI; i really don't know. I am also hating fire/ice, no one runs it, yet, but i think they may, now and that card against my deck build is pretty devistating at times i would imagine. If i find slaver a real problem i will probably just SB pithing needles. i really don't like null rods synergy in the deck.

The way i use the deck against gifts is a little different from most, but i have had success with it, even pre sideboard. I want to say that i especially do not like pillar, and to a lesser extent, I do not like null rod. I have learned from experience that pillar has never been a game winner for me against gifts, even without it being disrupted: pillar and null rod are damaging when drained (i play very few 2cc cards) and when that happens it tends to be game over: with the lack of counterspells I have tried to stay away from relying on permenants gifts with permenants since, more often than not, they can easily bounce it back to my hand and combo off taht turn. My strategy is to keep their mana in check with wastelands,  mox monkeys (4 md), and by almost always placing their mana from gifts in the graveyard (sometimes even when they pick tinker): to keep their hand in check by making sure they have to force when they can: and to keep their graveyard in check with a crypt always out in play (I just went from 4-3 MD, but have more testing to do to see if i dont want 4). So long as you keep them from having the resources requisite to combo out the game is yours. This strategy isn't as "hard" as a on board null rod would seem, but it's passive nature prevents mana drain from being very effective and prevents their bounce from being very effective. So, with that strategy in mind, I prefer the non-permenant sideboard, duresses, REBs, etc. I currently have a new sideboard that opts for the durresses and the reb/pyroblast mix (the number of which i am still deciding). The problem i am having is what can go out of the md. I cut down the swords count, by one or two, and i cut the lavamancer count, and sometimes the crucible. My question is, what are the worst MD cards against gifts? Yes it depends on deck builds, but general positions on cards can still be made. Right now i am thinking that the least relevant/most damagind cards in the MD are dark confidant and magma jet, but i am relucant to take them out initially since they are also advantagous in card quality and draw. The real problem is that Drain, that 2 mana really makes a difference in their goldfish speed. Those are my thoughts.

Yeah after more testing I have decided that hide/seek is a definite MD card. What I am starting to become disapointed with is Magma jet. I find it is usually the first card I take out of the MD after the sideboard. STPs generally stay in, even though one or two may be removed, to deal with their darksteel or the like; the bolts deal with a first turn welder or other early creatures, even if you go second. Also, against combo it is pretty much useless and since it costs two, easily turns against you when drained. Yes the scry can help a bit, but I think more damaging topdraws would be better, like upping the pyrostatic pillar count (against combo) and throwing an early bolt at their face. I dont think the card should be entirely removed, it does have it's advantages. I am just thinking lowering the MD count to 3 and replacing the 4th one with Entomb. It ups the black mana cards to 5, but with welder it's a great tutor. It effectiely tutors the crucible to play rather than to my hand at the cost of a draw (though I am still keeping that tutor in). Also, if i have the crucible it fetches my stripmine for me, which is always good to have, and it doesn't give drain much to work with.

My position on jet not being worth the cost could be because I am still sticking with the genju rather than the Grunts. From my playtesting I have concluded that the crypts give you much greater control of games against stack and combo. As long as you keep the pressure on with mana denail and deny them their graveyards at instant speed they won't have the card advantage to combo you out, which is the decks biggest threat.

So do you recommend adding in a splash of black? I tried it and thought it made the deck slightly more competitive, but I also thought that may have been necause the meta wasn't wasteland heavy. I am so on the fence about it I am just keeping my playset of hide/seeks, grunts, and the like aside so I don't have to trade for them later. I think Grunt is superior to Genju in a lot of builds, including three color since the grunt isn't worried about Land hate.
So what about the slot for trinisphere and the magus sb slot (i already have a 4th lightning bolt). Are there just better cards that I am missing? Pyrostatic pillar wouldn't be all that great in my meta, not as a md. Possibly bombardment, but i really only have 15 creatures so i am not sure how great it will be, though I guess it is the new front runner.
I am probably going to keep in the kami/unicorn since they are moderately good at taking down an opponents life, they moderately deal with wild card decks, and because they get rid of engineered plague; i hate being caught in the crossfires of the anti goblin sbs.

This is the new deck that I am considering and I would really like some advice.

The meta, involves some power but no one really has enough for the great combos, though I am sure there will be some eggs or some jank. Scepter makes up a substantial portion of the deck, while there is also the lone food chains, dragon, and stax. I expect a couple fish decks, possibly white and blue, and a couple psychatog decks. I have never seen an oath, but i have a nagging feeling that one might show up.

So that being said. here is the deck

Creatures 15
4 Goblin Welder
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hearth Kami
1 Kami Of Ancient Law
2 Ronom Unicorn

Spells 24
4 STP
4 Magma Jet
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Genju Of The Spires
2 Pithing Needle
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

Lands 21
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept heath
1 wooded foothills
2 Mountains
1 Plains
1 Stripmine

SB
3 REB
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sacred Ground
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Kami Of Ancient Law/Magus of the Scroll/?

First I will address the "WTF" card, Trinisphere. I am not 100% on this card, but the way i figure is as follows, it does serious damage against combo (about as good as any on collor card), it severly hinders counter magic, which is great: with the kami and land destruction it has the chance to shut an opponent out of the game, it's fetchable with enlightened tutor and recursive with welder so I can avoid it should I ever choose to.

Next, Hearth Kami. Since the power in decks is minimal, and beacuse the artifacts people tend to run are more like crucible and scepter, I decided not to run Mox Monkeys and i opted for the Kami. I didn't do Goblin Vandals because some people run Engineered plague in anticipating of foodchain goblins, and if i did vandal engineered plague would wipe out more than half my creatures.

Pithing Needle: shuts down psychatog and chant along with most other stuff that they might throw my way and with the welders i can reset it whenever i want, which has been great.

Jotun Grunt: I dont run this guy because I think the grim lavamancers and crypts control and abuse graveyards better then grunt ever could. i would rather have the lavamancer open the way for the Genju, then have the grunt be chump blocked.

So, what says you all?

Yeah, the synergy with null rod isn't all the great, but neither is the synergy between null rod and T-crypt. I have tried the mono md rod build, but I never found it all that advantageous. Do you really find it useful? I figure double clamping a Grunt, or even a unicorn (when in a bind) would be better than the lone rod, or at least consistently more helpful. I haven't actually tried the other equipment, either, since they are fairly mana intensive and I already dump plenty of mana into factories, lavamancers, and genjus as is. I was also thinking of slightly bumping up the Curve and using Vial rather than the Rod, but i haven't quite figured out what the vials would replace.

Has anyone tried Jotun Grunt with skullclamp? Honestly I prefer the lavamancer abuse and crypt to the grunt, but the grunt and skullclamp could make up for deck's lack of card draw; I haven't tried them together, yet.

I am also on the fence about Jotun Grunt vs Genju. I ended up playing with 4 grunt, and he was ok, but not great. (I ended up placing 4th after a loss to psychatog). I also think the addition of black for hide/seek and darkblast is only slightly beneficial, maybe not worth the investment.

I think i prefer abusing grim lavamancer and crucible rather than using the Grunt. (Yes i know their uses aren't necessarily exclusive, but there is an element of bad synergy that makes its presence known every now and then).

I don't see any new cards that will definitley be an asset to the deck, but i do think this new set will make this deck more competitive. This set is very fish friendly, which is something players will definitely abuse, which is another reason why I think i prefer abusing the lavamancers, and I am still thinking of keeping the black mana in for the darkblasts, and maybe SB the hide/seeks, or just not play them.

Thanks a lot. the information abou the lightning bolts and darkblasts helped a lot. I just picked up darkblasts and grim lavamancers' this afternoon and i put in one darkblast, but after what you said i just took out the bolts and added two blasts. Right now my decklists looks like this

Creatures 15
4 Joten Grunt
3 Kami Ancient Law
2 Hearth Kami
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Vandal

Spells 23
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Magma Jet
3 Hide/Seek
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Darkblast
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Mox pearl (proxy)
1 Mox Ruby (proxy)

Lands 21
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's factory
3 bloodstained mire
2 windswept heath
1 wooded foothills
1 strip mine
1 badlands
1 mountain

SB 15
1 Sacred Ground
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Hide/Seek
2 Goblin Vandal
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 RED
3 Pyroblast

Right Now I am considering taking out the last mountain and putting in a scrubland since then i will have 11 red, 11 white, and 8 black, which will help oout a lot. My question is, are playing 2 basic lands (1 plains and 1 mountain) really important? If so, is it plausable for me to take out 1 plateau for the scrubland?

Also, since i have taken out the bolts and put in 2 darkblasts I have one spot left in the MD. I am thinking of putting in, grim lavamancer, goblin vandal, lightning bolt, hide/seek, black lotus, crucible of worlds (not so sure on this one), seal of cleansing, Mox Jet (i think this one is my top choice so far).

I am starting to think that since it is a few proxy tournament and most people don't have power i will be hitting a lot of blue (Fish), which is why i am thinking 6 REbs.

I won't be able to playtest annymore before the tournament (two days away). So i will have to take your guys words for any changes. Also, i don't think i will be able to find welders in time.

This is a build with hide/seek that I have been using. The card can be a real beast in games and I think everyone should try it. I have found that playing a single bad lands is enough for the card to be effective, though i may want to tweak the pitch lands a bit. The single black mana doesn't change the current mana build much, and with the grunt and pitches I have found that even if it gets wasted i still get it back out in play. Also, even without the black it can deal with the problem cards (i.e. DSC).

I haven't tested the deck with grim lavamancers or welders, yet, and there is a big tournament in a week so, for those of you that have played with those builds. Are the lavamancers really a unique advantage? or are the grunts and in deck destruction sufficient? I haven't had much of a problem, but that doesn't mean the deck is optimal. Also, do you think darkblasts can sub for the mancers? I figure it's recurring and has better synergy with the joten grunt.

I am also unsure of the 4 chant count. I use them to disrupt storm counts, but I think 4 might be a bit overboard.

Artifacts 4
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

Creatures 13
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Hearth Kami
3 Kami Of Ancient Law

Enchantments 6
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Genju of the Spires

Instants 16
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Hide/Seek

Basic Lands 1
1 Mountain

Lands 20
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Badlands


Sideboard: 14
4 Orim's Chant
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Darkblast
1 Sacred Ground
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt