Beder posted a very interesting non-sphere Shop deck a while ago: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42090.0

I played something similar for a while. I don't think it's tier 1 but it's certainly VERY explosive and VERY fun to play. I haven't had the chance to test against all match-ups but the deck certainly has its good match-ups (like shops). One of the last lists I settled on looked like this:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Precursor Golem / Wurmcoil Engine
4 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Voltaic Key
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Time Vault

1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Buried Ruin
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith

Sideboard

4 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Jester's Cap
3 Wurmcoil Engine / Precursor Golem


The sideboard is geared to shoring up a little the weaknesses against fast blue decks (Jester's Cap) and Null Rod/Waste decks (Crucible and Wurmcoil). I don't think this is a top-deck but it can be surprisingly effective. (Undisrupted) second turn TV/Key combo wins or hasted Myr Battlespheres are pretty normal lines of play. You could go even more over the top and add in some Swiftfoot Boots 

Hello

a few years ago I started a thread about black stax: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31858.0

I bet they printed a lot of useful cards in the meantime.

Don't forget about Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Cabal Pit and especially Nether Void.

Wouldn’t Birthing Pod be an interesting addition to this style of deck?

I’m going to test something like this:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Precursor Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Voltaic Key
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Birthing Pod
1 Time Vault

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith


Pod gives you a small utility package and makes your critters uncounterable. Switching a used Metalworker for a Lodestone, a Precursor Golem for a Wurmcoil/Duplicant and a Battlesphere for a Titan are all interesting plays. Some other interesting plays are:

-   Birthing away Precursor, Wurmcoil and Battlesphere leaves you with the tokens.
-   Birthing away Lodestone for Forgemaster can give you the win with a greaves in play.
-   Keys allow you to use Pod multiple times in one turn. Going from Precursor to Wurmcoil to Battlesphere to Titan seems fun 

I’m certain there are more broken decks to build around Birthing Pod but I think it has its merits in a workshop aggro deck.

But doesn't Triskelion take care of Mountain Goat?

In all seriousness, I've been playing a lot of MUD decks in the past years and the best solution to good old Null Rod I could find is just beat, beat and beat some more. You've still got your 5/3's, 4/4's and flying 5/5's. Of course this deck is more vulnerable to Null Rod than the more conservative lists but it's not always the end of the world when it resolves.

I don’t want to hijack your thread with my list but I’ve been toying around with the same idea for a few weeks. Maybe I can give you some ideas or opinions.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Trygon Predator
3 Sower of Temptation

1 Time Walk

1 Merchant Scroll

1 Ancestral Recall

4 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will

3 Nature’s Claim
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Mox

Sideboard

4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth
3 Old Man of the Sea
2 Mindbreak Trap

My list is on the one hand pretty different from yours but on the other hand uses some of the same ideas. The list has not been tested extensively but the first results aren’t bad. I think the idea of Stripless Fish can have merit.

I dropped Rod mostly because I dropped Wastes. I would play them both OR none of them in a Fish list.

Gush could replace Selkie but I haven’t tested it and I’m not sure it would be better for this list.

I’ve considered Lorescale but at the moment every critter has some utility. I would probably play Tarmogoyf before Lorescale. I understand however Lorescale can be pretty powerful with Gush. If I would replace Selkie with Gush, Sower could become Lorescale (Lorescale answers the big hitters but Sower also takes care of stuff like Welder and Confidant).

Cobra is great in Fish decks because it enables you to play out threats while maintaining mana to play Pierce or Leak.

3 Sowers may seem like a lot but they have proven very useful. Stealing a Welder, Golem, Confidant, … while nibbling away at your opponents life-total is nice.

No Jaces because … I simply don’t own them. Not really a valid reason I know. If I had them, they would probably replace Sowers.

Hey Nick, would you mind to share your most recent GW list? Some of your lists got posted here in the past and I thought they always contained some interesting and creative choices (like Heartwood Storyteller) in contrast to the more conservative lists.

Hey madmanmike25, I don't know if it's funny or plain weird but independently we always seem to be working on the same sort of decks. Years ago it was Rod MUD and now rodless Fish (or whatever you can call it).

Anyway, in the last weeks I've been playing UG and UGW fish lists without Rods and Wastes. I dropped Rods and Wastes to add the artifact mana wich in turn facilitated the easier casting if bigger fish like Trygon Predator, Selkie, Sower of Temptation (has been very nice) and even Mana Drain. When I dropped Rod I immediately looked at Jitte. Although this is Vintage Jitte is very good in Rodless aggro decks: it speeds the clock and it kills blockers, Welders and Confidants. By the way Jitte on Selkie (and Hierarchs on the table) is insane.

I know this thread is about GW instead of UG or UGW but I just wanted to say I get your reasoning for dropping Rods and Wastes and the addition of Jittes. I'm not going to spam your thread with my list(s). Just pm me if you're interested. Until now the concept has tested pretty well. I also toyed with GW but the problem is that the off-color moxen offer nothing to the deck (a lot of your cards need GW mana). If I would play pure GW I would still play Rod I think. Without the need of extra artifact mana Rod seems too good to pass up.

Concerning the deck: I agree Sylvan Library and Guile seem pretty terrible. What about Selkie or Ohran Viper? The last one even kills Inkwell in a pinch. Replacing them with one more each of Plow and Claim sounds good too. Those cards are pretty good against most of the format at the moment. Artifacts and Confidants are everywhere.

Noble Hierach has tested very well for me too. Opponents often underestimate this card. It speeds you up (facilitating Mana Drain in my deck) while you play extra threats an attack with Exalted critters. It strenghtens your manabase against Shops and the Exalted ability can add up.

Another card wich has been floating in and out of my list is Pithing Needle. I almost always play this card in my sideboards and it gets sided in very often. It could be played maindeck in a lot of decks I think, especially when you drop Rod. It tackles a lot of relevant cards (Time Vault, Jace, Welder, Bazaar, Wastes, ... ).

I'm going to follow this thread with great interest.

Mike Beregon's maindeck seems to have 56 cards. Has anyone any idea what the last four cards were? Is guess some extra (utility) beats (Imperial Recruiter would fit  )? And are the Jittes in the sideboard correct?

I have the same feeling. In the 10 games or so I played I only put the Ninja into play once. For the rest it was used as pitch-fodder. The only creatures you want to Ninjutsu with are Factorys and Sculptor (if the game has gone long enough to make its ability less needed). I can't imagine a lot of situations in wich I would Ninjutsu out Canonist or Master just to draw a card. How about replacing Ninja with something like Fabricate or Thoughtcast? Fabricate tutors for those 2-of artifacts you play (Sword and Relic) or an extra Master or Canonist. It's also another shuffle effect for Top. Thoughtcast would almost always be a draw 2 for U in this deck.

Inspired by the RW list Dan posted a few pages ago I’m going to test something like this for the new metagame:

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Null Rod

4 Dead/Gone
4 Swords to Plowshares

5 Mountain
5 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
2 Mox

Sideboard

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pithing Needle
4 Shattering Spree
3 Serenity (I suspect a rise in Oath decks but this also rapes Stax. Other possibilites are Seals or Ronom Unicorns)

Mindcensor seems very good to hinder the Tezzeret and Grindstone decks. The list also includes the new combo killer Ethersworn Canonist. I choose Dead/Gone maindeck over Lightning Bolt because Dead/Gone takes care of Welder, Confidants, Goyfs, Colossus, Oath creatures, ... The only thing Bolt does better is taking out Tezzeret.

I also have a version wich drops the Magus of the Moon for True Believers or Glowriders and some lands for Wastes. I prefer The Moon version at the moment because a lot of people still get caught with their pants down by Magus and I can see Shops making a comeback.

The only thing I miss with this color configuration is card–draw, although I hope the threat density solves that. Confidant is the most logical solution but not for the Moon version of course. I even contemplated adding something like Mindstorm Crown to replenish your hand.

I’m curious what people, especially Dan, think about a list like this?

Oblivion was the First RPG I ever played. At the beginning the game looked a little overwhelming and complex but very soon I was drawn into it. Now I play Oblivion almost daily and to me it’s the best game I ever played. And it probably will be until The Elder Scrolls V comes out. The game is very deep and gives you a lot of different things to do. One day you’re really focusing on completing certain guild quests, the other day you’re clearing dungeons to get some needed loot or you’re just roaming around admiring and exploring the world (especially with the graphical enhancement mods).

And that’s where I come to the main part of my post: Mods. Vanilla Oblivion is a great game but the endless amount of mods available makes it the best for me. I’d like to list some you really need to try out. First I would recommend you download Oblivion Character manager (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6386) (a very handy tool to separate your different chars), Oblivion Mod Manager (http://timeslip.chorrol.com/obmm_download.html) (I can’t imagine using mods without this) and Oblivion Script Extender (http://obse.silverlock.org/) (needed for some mods to work and it comes with a launcher from with you can easily acces the Character Manager, Mod Manager and other stuff).

Some must haves mods by category (I’m not going to provide links for all of them, just use the search function on the great mod site http://www.tesnexus.com/. If you can’t find them pm me.) :

Gameplay:

* Alternative start: this one let’s you skip the tutorial dungeon. You can start in one of the three ports (IC, Anvil and Leyawin), create your character and even choose some extra stuff like starting gold, background, diseases, …
* Color Map Mod: this gives the dull brown maps some needed color.
* DarNified UI: this makes the HUD much smaller wich adds to the immersion a lot. You can even adjust it to your taste. Also the menus get a lot friendlier to use with their smaller font. One of the best!
* Deadly Reflex: this makes combat intenser (decapitations and stuff!).
* Harvest Flora: with this mod installed, when you harvest flora it will really look harvested until it respawns.
* Oblivion Script Optimization: improves your performance
* Real Hunger, Real Sleep: does just what it says. You need to eat and sleep on regular times, otherwise your stats will drop until you eat. Improves immersion. There’s also Real Fatigue but I don’t use that one.
* Unofficial patches (for main game and official plug-ins): these mods are needed. They shore up a lot of bugs, glitches, … left behind in the original game.
* Streamline 3.2: anhances your performance, saving system, ...

Graphics and sounds:

* Almost everything viewable when distant: does what it says
* Atmospheric Oblivion: This mods adds more ambient sound to virtually everywhere in the game and improves on certain sounds. The mod is subtle but enhances immersion.
* Better Cities: one of the best mods out there. It changes the look of each city to reflect more  it’s style (when you thought Bravil was ‘dirty’, wait until you see the BC version). You rrally have to see it to comprehend what it does.
* Darker Dungeons (and Darker Nights): simple but great! Now exploring dungeons, caves, … is a lot more exciting and realistic. I advise to bring torches!
* Illumination within: when it gest dark people will light their houses and it will show through the windows. This adds a lot of mood to the game when in cities.
* Landscape LOD Replacement borders, Landscape LOD Replacement textures, Landscape LOD NormalMap fix: Replaces the original 1024x1024 landscape LOD textures with improved 2048x2048 textures and makes the far-off terrain look much less blurry.
* MD Natural Faces: it improves the faces of NPC’s
* Natural Environments: another must have. It can seem subtle at first but it enhances the vegetation, weather system, water, …
* Quarls Texture Pack 3: it improves the textures and makes an immense difference. It can be a real shot to your performance however. 512 mb video cards recommended. There’s also QTP 2 for 256 mb cards.
* Symphony of Violence: enhances the combat sounds
* Unique Landscapes: a series of mods wich make a certain area of the world more unique in its appearance.

Extra content

* Crowded Roads, Immersive Travelers and Tamriel Travellers: these 3 add extra NPC’s to the Roads (and other places sometimes) wich really takes awat that irrealistic lonely feeling you can get when running around. You should check out the mods a little because some of them even add NPC Merchants so you don’t need to always go in a town to buy and sell.
* Lost Spires: it adds an archeology guild and a lot of new locations and quests. I haven’t done the quests yet but it should be one of the best.
   
Keep me posted if you try these out. I'd love to hear your thoughts about them.

I was one of the people that asked for your list ... Thanks for sharing it!

Anyway, on the deck: URBana always played some 1-drops (shaman, Fanatic, Lavamancer, ... ) to enable second-turn Ninjas (and of course their utility), so Cursecatcher is a very logical inclusion. I think it's important to say that it increases the blue card count for FoW. Older lists tended to play with red 1-drops and those lists were often on the verge of a low blue count for FoW.

The 1 Shattering Spree seems a bit random without search but I guess it's there to draw it occasionaly in the Shop match-up.

Why Duress over Thoughtseize? Was the damage too much together with Bob?

How has stifle been? It always seemed less useful to me in URBana than in other Fish decks. Of course it adds nice to the mana-denial of Rod, Shaman and Wastes and it's nice against combo but I wonder some extra hard counters (Mana Leak and such) would be better for stuff like Will and Tinker.

Rod over Chalice: I can imagine it screws you a little too but Rod is just so good right now.

I must test out Welders in the side. I would say Heretics if 8-Spheres are bothering you but Welder could be very good indeed.

Concerning EtW: maybe change 1 Threads and 1 BEB for 2 Echoing Truth?

I'm surely going to test this list later this week.

Hey Dan, care to share that list with us? I'm especially curious because you mention it's mono-red. I haven't tested Shusher myself but I'm about to. He certainly shows a lot of promise in theory. I think that a very nice side effect of the critter is his ability to play stuff through Chalice.

At the moment my main questions are to include Null Rod maindeck or not and the Chalice lock. In have the bare necessities down to this:

Critters - 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Utility - 5
2 Life from the Loam
3 Zombie Infestation

Removal and disruption - 12
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

Draw and Search - 6
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Mana - 22
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
4 Mox

That leaves three slots. These could be taken by 3 Null Rods, wich is the appropriate number for the card. If the card is not included maindeck I believe it wouldn’t go sideboard either. I would reserve the sideboard for more specific answers like Seeds of Innocence.

On the other hand I believe 1 or 2 maindeck answers against Chalice @ 2 is pretty much needed. This deck, like most other aggro and aggro-control decks gets screwed by Chalice @ 2 (and Chalice @ 1). Ideally, a 3 cc answer seems right. I’m contemplating the following possibilities:

-   Seeds of Innocence: takes care of multiple Chalices, is a Wrath of Moxen and just wipes the board against Workshop (and a lesser degree Slaver) players.
-   Krosan Grip: has the nice side effect of being uncounterable and removing stuff like Oath and Leyline
-   Sundering Vitae: like Krosan Grip it also takes care of Oath and Leyline but instead of being uncounterable it has the effect of having a cheaper cost against mana-denial strategies.
-   Vexing Shusher: this Goblin enables you to play cards through the Chalices. The effect is of course useful against regular counters too and he beats.
-   Viridian Shaman / Uktabi Orangutan: has the side affect of being an additional beater / blocker
-   Devout Witness: the cousin if Viashino Heretic. The discard cost shouldn’t be too harsh in this deck and she beats on the side. It takes a turn to come online in during wich she could be removed however.
-   Aura Shards: very nice when you can land this and an Infestation against Stax before the Chalice comes down. The problem is that it needs creatures to come into play, but Goyfs and Bobs cost two.
-   Putrefy: kills all kind of artifacts and can act as extra Plows. Could be nice when your fish opponent puts Meddling Mage on Plow and / or Infestation.
-   Pernicious Deed: a Wrath of Moxen and Chalices like Seeds. Can take care of opposing aggro decks when activated for 1 or 2 mana. This last use however takes an extra turn probably.
-   Gaddock Teeg: this is only a solution when played before the Chalices and I don’t really see it as an option in that regard.

I know most people leave these solutions for the sideboard planning to use them games 2 and 3 when game 1 went wrong. I like 1 or 2 (flexible) maindeck answers however.

At the moment I’m leaning towards 1 Darkblast (Confidant and Welders are everywhere) and 2 Seeds of Innocence OR 2 Krosan Grip for the last three slots. Seeds has a big effect while Grip is more versatile.

Any comments, especially on the maindeck use of Null Rod and the Chalice issue?

My current sideboard is:

4 Extirpate
2 Oxidize
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Krosan Grip OR Seeds of Innocence (depens on the maindeck configuration)

I tested the following list some against Slaver and UBW Fish. Slaver was pretty easy and I had the feeling the combined mana-denial of Shaman, Kataki, Rod and Wastes helped a lot. Actually, without the “smoothing” of Brainstorm manadenial seems very good against control decks especially.

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War’s Wage

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Null Rod

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
3 Mox

Sideboard (untested)

4 Pithing Needle
4 Shattering Spree
3 Smother / Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

Actually in testing the REBs and Pyro were Needles (seems interesting to shut off Bazaar , Welder, … wich I expect to see a lot). I replaced them with Blasts for the moment to take care of the occasional draw spell that slips through or as extra removal for Fish stuff (wich I expect a lot of too) like Trinket and Meddling Mage (MMage on Lavamancer and counters on Plow lost me a lot of games against Fish).

Another card that surely is back with a verngeance is Null Rod. Shuts off stuff like Triskelion, Slaver, Top, ... on top off Moxen.

I like this deck a lot, it is like an old-school TMWA with Thoughtseizes. It feels like a very basic but sturdy list.

I’m still wondering if the Shamans should be replaced with Vandals and the REBS could be stuff like burn, Smother, Flametongue, even the Needles or Ronom Unicorns I had in first.

I already liked the deck a lot when you showed it to me a few weeks ago. In my eyes it's a very original and clever version of MUD (like the Null MUD we toyed around with earlier ). Some random opinions:

* Like you said already your combo matchup is not so good as the 9-sphere versions. However don't underestimate your own combo; in goldfishing the Jerking Staff combo came up with good consistency on turn 2 or 3. Besides that, combo has to win very quickly because this deck gets out of hand very very quickly. However, game 1 isn't in your favor. After sideboarding however ...

* You forgot to mention a fifth avenue to victory: the ravager-trisk machine-gun! With Retrievers, Divers and Clamps this deck pumps out a lot of artifacts. Sac them all to Ravager, dump all counters on Trisk and "say hello to my little friend!"

* The fact that Diver has flying isn't to be underestimated. The last months, with all the aggro and aggro-control running around, a lot of my games halted in a (temporary) critter stand-off. Hence why Moat is very good right now (see kobefan's wonderful BW control deck). In such cases, a flyer, especially one with a Sword, can be decisive.

* One card I could see in the sideboard is Crucible. I haven't tested against Stax but in the past it was a hard match-up for a MUD deck. Of course this version is very aggressive wich can negate the slow pressure of smokestack and CoW/Waste.

* Having a lot of mana (no problem), a Clamp and two Retriever/Divers going on is pretty good for drawing.

* Again, I think this version is very good for this metagame. If Null Rod makes a comeback however ...

I'll make sure to test this deck some more this weekend and I hope this nice developed deck and well-written description get the attention they deserve.

@ Polynomial P: Seeing that you have been one of the prime designers of this deck throughout the years and seeing its most recent finish, would you mind posting your "updated" list? You talk about dropping Teegs and adding Mindcensor/Grunt, Riftstone Portals and Crop Rotation but how would you exactly integrate these?

It seems so weird to cut the Gaddock Teegs because (besides Duress effects) it's the only thing to disrupt combo. I would rather expect to go up to three Teegs. On the other hand Jotun Grunt is a nice cheap better with the ability to disrupt and that can be kept alive almost "indefinitely" in this deck.

What does this deck do about an early Chalice @ 2 ? That's pretty harsh. After sideboard you have 2 Oxidize and 1 Seeds of Innocence but in the first game you could be screwed by a first or second turn Chalice. If you would remove the Teegs, you could replace them by Devout Witness (wich also spells trouble for Oath and can be fed with Squees).

This deck seems to have a pretty good game against workshop, control and especially aggro archteypes. The only real problem match-up seems combo. Are the sideboarded Thorns and Leylines enough to turn that match-up in your favour? If yes, this deck could do pretty good when piloted well (and yes it did).

This is probably going too far but seeing that Green and Black seem the most necessary colours could White be dropped for consistency in the mana base (although Life from the Loam solves a lot of problems)? Is the white splash for only Plows (and side Ray of Revelation) really necessary? Plow could maybe be replaced by (various) Edicts, Smallpox (could be intersting), Paralyze (don't laugh, I used these with succes in the past), ... Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying dropping white would make the deck necessarily better, I'm just wondering.

I suggested Glowrider on the previous page and I still think it would be better than Thorn because it keeps the beats flowing while disrupting. If you would put them maindeck (but I rather think you would replace Sphere with them) Thorn could replace Sphere in the board.

I see you dropped Extirpate again. I must concur. I tested them a little and they were a little underwhelming. The more global effect of Leyline seems more useful. I wonder however: does Leyline never interfere with feeding your Grunt? Is Bazaar enough? On the other hand against non-Ichorid, but still graveyard dependent decks you don't have to mull to a Leyline because you also have 4 Grunts.

Good call on Condemn. I'm in doubt however between Condemn and Cruel Edict. Oath seems on a rise in my metagame and Simic Sky Swallower can be a b*tch to get rid of. Condemn doesn't help with that. Also, Chalice @ 1 disables Lavamancer, Plow AND Condemn (all your best critter removal) if that would ever matter.

You gave your opinion about Thorn but what about the other two cards that could fit in this deck: Thoughtseize (would make Extirpate more viable again, but Leyline still seems better) and Gaddock Teeg?

I still like the deck very much. It's one of those decks that can keep evolving and changing with new metagames and new sets.

WhiteWolf

@ vroman: Your latest list looks very close to one of the two testlists I have on paper. I took the deck in two different directions. One is the more "traditional" list with Chalice/Leyline and the other list replaces these with Grunt/Extirpate. The reasoning for the second list was:

1) Extirpate seems powerful (Extirpate on Gush!) and replaces Chalices
2) Extirpates (and in a lesser way Grunt) don't work well with Leyline AND I wanted a quicker clock SO Grunt replaced Leyline

I came to this list:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Aven Mindcensor

1 Life from the Loam

4 Duress

1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Maze of Ith
4 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

4 City of Brass
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Badlands
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Hide/Seek
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Cruel Edict

As you can see I cut the 2 power blue to round out Grunt and Mindcensor to 4. Mindcensor is just too good and Grunt is the much needed clock (and defense muscle in some match-ups). Another difference is a fourth Extirpate, Strip Mine and Petal over your Ring, Tomb, Stronghold and Will (you seem to play 61 cards by the way). Im certainly not saying these differences are better or worse, they just fit my style better. I must admit though Will looks pretty strong here. Often (like in always) multiple artifact mana, lands, ... are discarded to Bazaar. That could give some nice Will-plays.

This version adds some clock and nice Extirpate plays but seems to weaken the Ichorid and Flash match-up. I wonder wich is best.

greetings
WhiteWolf

@ Polynomial P: A very good description of the playstyle of the deck I believe!

@ vroman (and others of course): Did you ever consider or test the following cards:

- Extirpate: very nice with Duress, can be crippling, replacing REB probably
- Glowrider: this proved very good in a monowhite man-prison deck I tested some weeks ago. It also ran Mindcensor and maindeck Spheres
- Root Maze: was in the earliest versions I know, but seems pretty powerful. Probably in place of the REBs. Screws with all fetchlands and especially nice against the Gush-Fastbond engine. Would ask for a more green-dedicated manabase with 4 each of City of Brass and Gemstone Mine OR green duals
- Tarmogoyf: Comes together with Root Maze I guess. Very nice beater, especially because you can Bazaar-discard all spell-types with this deck, even excess artifact mana, Leylines and Root Mazes. Sometimes I feel the deck could use a better/faster clock. Jotun Grunt is nice but interferes with Lavamancer too much I fear. Tombstalker is also very nice but dangerous with Confidant.
- Mesmeric Fiend: A legged Duress
- Oath of Ghouls: Very nice utility that got used in similar decks and fish decks in the past. Nice synergy with Bazaar, now you can even discard critters.
- Maindeck artifact-hate: Sometimes Stax and/or Chalice @ 1 can be harsh I guess. Shaman and Vandal are good but fall prey to Chalice @ 1. Hearth Kami is nice but sucks against more expensive artifacts. Heretic is quit pricey for this deck. Kataki seems an interesting option if more artifact-hate is needed.
- Maindeck Hide/Seek: Would give extra maindeck solutions against Oath, Stax, ... and a (semi)-kill against some decks. Probably in place of REB.
- Maindeck Sphere of Resistance: In a lot of cases better than Chalice in this deck.
- Extra Wastelands
- Sideboard Serenity: I always thought this was a good sideboard (anti-stax) card if you could afford the color and didn't screw yourself too much.
- ...

As you see, for me the most "open" slots are the Chalices/REBs.

I'm pretty excited about this deck and curious to see it evolve.

WhiteWolf

Could Vromans latest creation be considered a TMWA-style deck? It's mainly RBW (but 5-color), very fun to play and wins with creatures. I played the deck a little, found it fun yet very competitive and am seriously considering taking it to a tourney next week.

Instead of posting the list and getting people confused about who created the deck, you can find the list here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33875.0

@ vroman: If you mind me mentioning the list here, just tell me. At least the list was already made public. Actually, I would say the deck deserves it's own thread. If you don't mind I will edit the list in this post.

@ Dan: Concerning your BR list: could Mesmeric Fiend replace Gathan Raiders? It's a puny clock but nice disruption. Other things I considered were Gorilla Shaman or Hearth Kami (2-power!)

greetings
WhiteWolf

I think many people are independently working with Mask decks, especially with the new errata. A teammember and myself have been testing some stuff too. He with U/B and I with MonoBlue.

My friend plays with Mask and Stifle so I suggested Standstill to him because it has some nice synergy with Mask. Aside from this synergy following up a 12/12 with a Standstill is always nice. Another nice one-off in these decks could be Academy Ruins to keep the Dreadnought pressure up.

Like I said I'm going to test a MonoBlue version. This way I can use Back to Basics, a card that seems pretty powerful right now. The utility is provided by 4 each of Trinket Mage and Merchant Scroll accompanied by the usual assorted utility artifacts and blue instants. Trinket Mage is just too good in this deck, grabbing answers as well as win-conditions. I play no Mask but 4 each of Stifle and Trickbind. I honestly don't know if Trickbind is better than Mask in this version but Trickbind seems to be more all-around useful.

This is the list at the moment:

MonoBlue Dreadnought

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

1 Time Walk

1 Pithing Needle
3 Back to Basics

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll

1 Ancestral Recall

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Force of Will

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dominate
1 Rebuild

8 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Echoing Truth
4 Propaganda
4 Leyline of the Void

WhiteWolf

@ Dan: I'm thinking of playing this deck (version 39.3). It not only looks insanely fun but seems to have good match-ups against the top decks (Flash, GAT, Goblins, ... ). Seeing that there still is some Pitch-Long in my area, how do you rate that match-up? Any experiences to share against storm-combo e.g. against Alex Franson with GWS Pitch Long?

I guess Duress, Unmask, Magus of the Moon, Leyline of the Void and sideboard Pyroblast can go a long way. Even a succesfull hit from an Hellbended Jagged Poppet can be crippling against combo. But are these things enough? I would really appreciate it if you could share some experiences. Thanks!

I guess the choice of Cruel Edict above Diabolic Edict is purely for the Misdirection issue?

WhiteWolf

When Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth came out I tested different versions of Black Stax a lot. You can find the thread I started (and that became pretty long) here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31858.0

Some of the best things these decks had going were the Confidant-Bazaar drawing engine, the fact that utility lands like Maze of Ith and Bazaar of Baghdad could produce mana and the possibility to hardcast Leyline of the Void.

In the end madmanmike25 formulated it best with the last sentence of the thread: "I think most of the people who sufficiently tested out Black Stax have found that MonoRed(Uba) or 4/5c stax just work better.  Hope any of that helps." Mono-black also limits your sideboard possibilities. For example, Gate to Phyrexia/Factory/CoW was the best I could find against other Stax decks.

Anyway, the deck has certain possibilities and can go in different directions. Nether Void sure is a great lock if you can throw it down.

At the moment I would play something like this (untested and off the top of my head!):

Void Stax

4 Dark Confidant

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nether Void

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

4 Maze of Ith
4 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Engineered Plague

Sudden Death seems another interesting sideboard card. Maybe a 2/2 split with Maze of Ith to circumvent Pithing Needle better. Keep in mind that Factory/CoW can keep Dryads at bay.

Succes with the deck and I'm sure going to follow this thread with much intrest!

@ wethepeople: Isn't Bazaar just a Mountain 9 out of 10? Seeing that you play 8 Moons and want to drop one in every match-up it probably lands on the board the first or second turn, before Bazaar ever becomes relevant. I totally agree with Bazaar as a card filter in aggro and prison decks but together with 8 Moons? Maybe Mindstorm Crown or Bottled Cloister could provide some draw?

Actually, that problem hasn't come up yet in my limited testing. If you expect it you shouldn't overcommit. I wanted a Pyroclasm like effect but wanted it to be useful in every matchup. This Pyoclasm-on-a-stick seemed very good to fill the role. On its own it deals 5 damage a turn but don't play it when the situation don't calls for it. The decks that could abuse the wipe effect the most are control and combo against wich you don't need Warmonger (save Goblin tokens). Against critter decks when they abuse Monger they will also wipe out their own army.


You could say Keg and EE aren't dead against non-critter decks too because they take care of Moxen but I used to play Null Rod in this deck (and still contemplating it) so activated artifacts were a no-no. And lastly I rather have a critter that helps the clock. The Warmonger used to be Bloodfire Dwarf wich is easier to cast but deals less damage and isn't reusable.

I had an idea for the Red/White deck: how about adding Suppression Field as a cheap (first-turn with Mox or SSG) lock piece? It was often not powerful enough in the past to be chosen but at the moment it disrupts two of the top decks: Ichorid (Bazaar!) and Hulk Flash (Kiki-Jiki, Feeder, ... ). The splash damage it does to fetchlands and such is great too. To accommodate them I would cut Tormod's Crypt (activated) and replace fetchlands with Sacred Foundry. Like such:

RW Hate

4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Glowrider
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere

4 Ghostly Prison

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Plains
4 Plateau
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

As I said I was very busy the last weeks so I didn't catch your deck list. I just did a search for it and we indeed made a lot of the same choices. Do you have any opinions on the "uncertain" slots in my list based on your limited testing or from seeing your friend play it?

And what is everybodys opinion on Warmonger and Pyrostatic Pillar? Warmonger I suggested earlier in another thread and people liked the idea but never catched on. It's a nice tool to get rid of Goblin and Zombie tokens and Fish AND beat down at the same time. Pyrostatic Pillar was always very good for me against combo, control and even Fish. It seems even better with the rise of GAT.

If this strays away too much from the original TMWA discussion a mod may remove or move this.

I'm certain the next (mono-R) deck is NOT better than the RW list. I just want to contribute some ideas to the discussion. It started as a variant of Harlequins "Jaws" with Workshops, Solemn, Juggernauts, ... Mishra's Workshop became less and less good in the deck because a lot of red cards with pretty prohibitive cc's were played (Blood Moon, Viashino Heretic, Warmonger, ... ) so I switched to Ancient Tomb (and City of Traitors).

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Viashino Heretic
4 Warmonger
4 Gathan Raiders

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance / Null Rod
4 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere

4 Tormod’s Crypt / Orb of Dreams / Pyrostatic Pillar

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

4 Dead/Gone / Shattering Spree
4 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Slice and Dice / Tormod’s Crypt

As you can see some slots are open for discussion. It's the latest version of the deck on paper. I haven't had the time to test it extensively because I'm very busy the last weeks. I'm even wondering if going mono-red adds enough to be worth it. Aven Mindcensor (and Glowrider) are probably too good. Pyrostatic Pillar was always one of the top cards in the deck and could become even better with the rise of GAT.

@ yespuhyren: I really like that list. I used to toy around with Glowrider in my older 5-color Stax lists but in this deck (with this mana-base) he's much easier to cast. Two questions though:

- Do you think that with 6 basic plains maybe 2 of two them can be replaced by white-producing utility lands like Kjeldoran Outpost or Nomad Stadium? I agree this could turn out to be too clunky and win-more however.

- Don't you think you need some extra Stax-hate (main or side) or do you think 4 Juggernaut / 4 Solemn give enough advantage against other Stax decks? I expect Stax to make a resurgence with the new metagame shaping even more around combo. Maybe the last 4 slots in the side could be Seal of Cleansing. That way you have something that's good against Stax and Oath. Combo, Control and even aggro seem to be already enough taken care of between the main and the side. The one other thing I would maybe include are Swords to Plowshares to remove utility creatures.

I'm definitely going to test this thing. I really love monocolored Stax lists.

@ all: has anyone already considered Suppression Field in these white / semi-white Stax lists? It's a first turn play that disrupts Bazaar of Baghdad, fetchlands, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Goblin Charbelcher, Goblin Welder, ... In a build like yespuhyrens it only affects your own Wastelands.

Replacing Vampiric Tutor I fully endorse but I wouldn't cut Demonic Tutor. How have Chains of Meph and Bitter Ordeal exactly been for you? Could you elaborate a little?


I told you! 


Actually, in the new metagame (post FS) I would run 4 Leyline of the Void maindeck (in my list probably in place of the Defense Grids). It was something I wanted to do already a few months ago when I dropped the deck for a while but in this metagame they seem an automatic maindeck addition. When you need them you just mull for them and in matchups where they're dead they can be Bazaar fodder. The fact that this deck is one of the only ones that can cast it "the normal way" when needed is only a plus.

That way the Defense Grids go sideboard and come in against control and combo, replacing Crucibles.

Another extra countermeasure against Ichorid (and other graveyard based decks) could be Yixlid Jailer main or side. He's also a 2/1 beater.

I'm going to test this deck again. If anything maindeck Leylines could make this good.