i could be wrong, but i think once you crack led, you can't "find /discard" anything because your hand is empty . Am I missing something here?

Could be used in some "Green sun's zenith" Time vault deck. One of these, along with deathrite shaman, dryad arbor, and possibly trygon predator/Edric spymaster/scavenging ooze sound like a decent toolbox. But then again, what would you cut from the average control list?

Porphiry nodes can be found in green : Drop of honey, from arabian nights.

Just my 2 cents

Here is the list i'm testing right now :

Force of will 4
Flusterstorm 2
Cabal therapy 4
Academy rector 4
Show and tell 4
Blightsteel colossus 1
Tinker 1 (show and tell n°5 for not-so-big-fatty ; A.K.A. « Plan B »)
Griselbrand 1 (No explanations needed, it's not Bargain n°2, Bargain is Griselbrand n°2^^)
Emrakul, the aeons thorn 1 (better kill than tendrils of agony)
Yawgmoth's bargain 1 (No explanations needed,)
Omniscience 1 (see above)
Flash 1 (awesome tutor target)
Demonic tutor 1 (spells « you just die » better than in a tendrils deck)
Vampiric tutor 1 (see above)
Imperial seal 1 (see above)
Mystical tutor 1 (see above, kinda)
Merchant scroll 1 (see above, because we also play...)
Gifts ungiven 1 (spells « you just die » better than... no wait, it's That card, it spells doom no matter what )
Yawgmoth's will 1 (see just above)
Time walk 1
Ancestral recall 1 (restricted filler)
Brainstorm 1 (restricted filler)
Thirst for knowledge 1 (restricted filler)
Moxes 5
Black lotus 1
Mana crypt 1
Lotus petal 1
Mana crypt 1
Ancient tomb 2
Tolarian academy 1
Polluted delta 4
Flooded strand 1
Underground sea 3
Tundra 2
Island 1
Swamp 1

Side board

Leyline of sanctity 4
Leyline of the void 4
Planar void 3
Ancient tomb 1
Hurkyl's recall 1
Silence 1
Form of the dragon 1

I really think you want to minimize dead cards, so -> only one  omniscience, only one griselbrand.
I think you DO need the full play-set of Show and Tell.
Ancient tombs are just complete nuts, but trading them with chrome mox/ mox opal might be worth a try.
Once the manabase began to work, I never dared to touch it again.
The deck could use 1 more mana source, and a few counterspells more, but I don't want to dilute the "engine" too much.
Sideboard is a rough draft.

I choosed to play lots of enchantment because :

Rector can fetch them
Since dredge « anti-hate » package is ready for everything, waiting for various kinds of hate, focusing on one type of permanent means you have as hate (if not more) as they have removal. And you have counters, and a combo finish, it should be enough, altough I never tested the match-up seriously.

Form of the dragon is kind of a nostalgic call, but I expect it to be useful in lots of « lethal damage on board » situations

Ancient tomb n°3 and hurkyl's recall are obviously there for the Workshop match-up. Not much siding power here, but you already have a decent shot game 1.

Silence could be anything, really.
I like silence because it helps with 2 hard-to-cope-with match-ups : control and pure combo.

So all in all, it's quite a streamlined version of this deck, and while it might be improved, I'm quite happy with it.

Thanks for this great article.
Since the bottleneck of the deck is finding black mana, have you considered Manamorphose? I understand it makes mulligan decisions harder, but it could be viable if you play enough spirit guides. Any thoughts on that?

My 2 cents

What I used to play back then : (and years after someone told me I was playing some kind of well known archetype)

sol ring 1
moxen 5
black lotus
tundra 4
underground sea 4
volcanic island 2
plateau 2
city of brass 3
scrublands 1
millstone 3
elemental augury 2 (awesome, just like jace tsm)
mana drain 4
counterspell 4
the abyss 1
moat 1
wrath of god 3
balance 3
swords to plownshares 4
disenchant 3
ancestral recall 1
mind twist 1
demonic tutor 1
time walk 1
mishra's factory 2
library of alexandria 1
serra angel 2

sideboard

consecrated land 4
equinox 2
circle of protection red 2
spirit link 2
serra angel 2
pyroclasm 2
tormod's crypt 1

Ok, I never paid attention to the difference between alternate and additional costs. Thanks for the answer.

Card Type: Instant

Casting Cost: 1U

Oracle Text: Return target nonland permanent you don't control to its owner's hand.
Overload 6U (You may cast this spell for its overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "target" with "each.")

-------------------------------------------
How does overload interact with the cascade mechanic? Or a card like Isochron scepter or panoptic mirror?

Thanks in advance

I love the Bruce Lee quote, that's the very way I try to improve my decks once I found an engine I like. Over here we say : "Ce n'est pas un assemblage, c'est une épure"
I really had a nice read

If you plan to kill with Empty the warrens, a singleton Goblin War Strike in the sideboard could be a nice wish target. Also, I'm pretty sure you want to play the black trinity  (demonic, vampiric, yawgmoth's win)
Just my 2 cents.

So it's some kind of Genesis Wave for non permanent spells. While it's probably awesome in EDH or modern, I don't think it will see play in vintage. I mean, it's strictly worse than Mind's Desire in "long" style decks, and belcher decks often have a hard time creating blue mana. Maybe in some kind of U/R ritual Empty the Warrens deck, but then again, it feels more like modern (or maybe legacy).
Nice card, and nice art, anyway.

My 2 cents

Paradigm shift might be worth trying

Bridge is here so you can sac narcomoebia to cabal therapies, and still have 3 zombie tokens to pay for the dread return.
You don't play blue, so you often need to therapy yourself to put combo pieces in the yard. The only other discard outlets are lion's eye diamond and wheel of fortune.

I hate this card, but I'm afraid land grant is indeed the way to go. It sucks if it gets countered, but the deck kinda loose to F.o.W. anyway.
Land grant also makes chalice a lot weaker against you, since you can go land grant / spirit guide for the turn 1 hermit.
Green sun's zenith is hot, but the deck have enough bombs I think. Sweet tech if you run ancient tomb in the side.

Thanks for the feedback anyway, I'll post a more detailled post (with updated list, and maybe some testing results) by the end of next week. Too much work this week.

bye

The greatgonzo

Hello everyone. First, the decklist :

Elvish spirit guide 4
Chancellor of the tangle 4
Simian spirit guide 4
Narcomoebia 4
Goblin welder 4
Sutured ghoul 1
Hermit druid 4
Goblin charbelcher 4
Chrome mox 4
Black lotus 1
Lion's eye diamond 1
Lotus petal 1
Mox opal 1
Mox pearl 1
Mox sapphire 1
Mox jet 1
Mox emerald 1
Mox ruby 1
Mana crypt 1
Sol ring 1
Mana vault 1
Grim monolith 3
Chromatic star 3
Memory jar 1
Wheel of fortune 1
Regrowth 1
Cabal therapy 4
Bridge from below 1
Dragon breath 1


 


The chancellor really helps to merge these two strategies together. It's fast, non-land green mana, and serious ghoul fodder.
Hermit laughs at null rod, and belcher don't care about graveyard hate.  is quite easy to reach for belcher, but getting  on turn 2 is tricky at times. Chromatic star helps here, but careful mulligan decisions helps more.
Talking about mulligan, the "one's of" combo pieces kinda forbid serum powder, but the deck mulligans less than good old belcher.
The turn 2 kill rate is quite absurd.

Questions :

How much mox opal would you play?
I dream of hardcasting a chancellor, but  is prohibitive. Could it be fixed? (And is a plan C worth it?)
Is there something obvious I missed? (Channel was in, but got cut. Too hard to cast, and too conditional)

I think i'm onto something here, any ideas/criticism appreciated.

Thanks for reading

The great gonzo

Back in the days, everyone and his brother sweared to god lotus petal didn't deserve a slot in a "tier1 deck".
We all agree Lotus petal is now a staple in almost every decent U/B combo-control deck.

Same could be true for Mox opal. Even if it doesn't break the format right now, we should keep an eye on everything that cost 0 and taps for 

Soft or hard lock?

I would go the hard lock way, with almighty Root Maze. T1 Root maze (on the play) is good against almost all match-ups, probably even better than duress. It' s just like playing time walks n° 2-5
I would play with full jewelery, along with some Elvish spirit guides. It helps for first turn "island + rootmaze" (awesome, especially with spell pierce back up), helps for turn 2/3 Garruk, helps for turn 2 stasis/rootmaze, and is a cute maindeck answer to resistors.
I'll play 4 jace tms, and 4 Garruk, Type 2 style (with gush and power, 'f course)

could be really strong with some tweaking'n'testing, but well, I'am a bartender, I'don't have enough (sober) spare time to playtest extensively.

Really hope something good comes out of rootmaze/garruk/stasis

EDIT :

about time vault : cool sinergy with root maze (comes into play tapped anyway), but the key comes into play tapped too. I think it neuters the nice "oops, I win" factor Key/Vault have.
Well, we could splash white for maindeck E. tutors, to race fast aggro with vault (and find Bond, Stasis, Maze...), and stronger sideboard options.

Also, I'd like to add that I've never seen Thada at work. Its good, really good, but mainly because the opponent don't want you to mess with his deck. It's a must counter for him. Sometimes, went it resolves, you have the pleasure to see your opponent commiting every single ressource available to get rid of her. It diverts opponents from their main game plan, and pitches to Fow, so it belongs.

A good friend of mine plays something similar. He plays tutors (mystical, vampiric, demonic) and some "answers" (echoing truth, hurkyl's recall, extirpate...)
I think you need a full set of duress. It's good on it's own, and the synergy with M.mage is amazing. Also, duress/force + extirpate randomly wins game 1 vs Oath.
He only plays 2 kataki, and only one thada (the second thada is a dimir cutpurse).
Since he runs the full tutor suite, he choose to run only 2 null rods (mistake in my opinion). He does play ponder (and some other manawise control stuff, so no gift, no FOF, but sometimes, he does run a tinker somewhere among the 75 cards). Actually, it feels more like a control deck with creature. It's not a "tempo fish" the way we see it. But it does work quite well.
Good thing about this deck, is that you don't need to use 8 sideboard slots to have a shot against Icky. Actually, you have a decent shot at game one vs dredge.
1 swords to plowshares belongs to the main, but other copies should be in the s, since this deck should run the "tutors/solutions" package, IMHO.

careful study looks like a no brainer in ascension.deck

a.) Some Seal of Cleansing/Annul in the board could help, and it's also useful against Workshops. But that leaves the "show and tell plan B" unanswered. Meddling mage/Duress looks like a better package.

b.) Since you don't run waste/strip, a lonely crypt is really not enough to have a shot against dredge game 1. So it just saves a sideboard slot. Pithing needle might save a game 1 every once in a while, and he's a real good swiss knife.

c.) If it's about damage, then by all means play Mana Crypt. You have enough ways to get rid of it (or to win game before dying). If it's about mana stability, cutting an off-color mox for crypt makes more sense to me.
Also, if you like explosive decks, mana crypt is the way to go.

how about salvage titan? Decks that don't really care about ordeal do care about a recurring craw wurm for 0 mana

if you're looking for a good 1 drop creature, xantid swarm might be ok. It's a must counter, can be clamped, and fuels the funnel. I don't know if it's worth the splash, but it certainly deserves a try.

If we want to abuse Shared Discovery, maybe we should rather look at cards like Bitterblossom or Awakening zone

I’am not a MUD expert, so I really dont know if Lotus should be out.
But there’s a story I remember.

During the gifts era, I once played in a large tournament in Paris. 90 people or so.
The tournament was proxyless, but included a special prize for the best performing unpowered deck. (no moxes, no lotus)
One of my losses came from an unpowered monobrown deck. Stax shell with metalworkers and staffs.
Believe it or not, from my point of view, (playing gifts) ancient tombs seemed way better than moxes. They acted as workshop 5 to 8 to power out first turn sphere.
Note that aside from smokestack, they were no 4CC spells in the list. So going Shop-Mox-lock was not mandatory.

So, maybe we should forget 1 shot mana boost in favor of something more permanent. I don’t know if it’s right, but I can see why it’s worth arguing about it.

Aside from being a permanent, carpet of flowers is useless against stax, since stax runs 0 islands.
But I agree that some rituals (along with a tendrils, and maybe necro/bargain) might be a good answer to drain decks.

the fact they need to care about 2 differents kills is interesting.

just in case you want to get cute, and/or have many creatures in your meta :

Distortion strike
Target creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn and is unblockable this turn.
Rebound (If you cast this spell from your hand, exile it as it resolves. At the beginning of your next upkeep, you may cast this card from exile without paying its mana cost.)

 

Since this combo is about four of, (except for fastbond, wich is a delayed 5/7 of, thanks to tutors), could serum powder be used to increase your chances of finding a turn 2 kill? It works for 2 card Monte, so it might work for this.
Of course, you won't have the sheer brokeness of power+shops.deck, but the fish matchup must be quite insane with lynx and geopede maindeck.

Or maybe we should'nt focus too much on the combo, and rather have a good aggro deck with the famous "oops, I win" factor inside, suicide dephts style.

i'll try to work on a list, see you within a few hours (or tomorrow, it's almost midnight here in belgium)

thx for reading

Black vise is meh. And takes 3 slots. I think a single feldon's cane would do.

Undiscovered paradise seems better than forsaken city. BUT...

- The city works under root maze, a 1 mana frozen aether that affects both players (but feldon's cane is out if you splash them)
- The city works under back to basics, wich could improve(or not) your mana denial plan.

And yes, you need ponder and brainstorm.

Tangle wire must be a nightmare in this shell 

@ zeromancer : it all comes down to the neverending question : null rod or vault/key?
both have great synergies with oath of druids : the former because you're playing with the cheapest win condition ever ( ), the latter because one of oath decks main problem is struggling for a decent secondary win condition.
I think key vault is better because :

a) it fits the shell better (playing with lots of tutors and diggers and such)
b) when facing creatures/hate decks, null rod won't stall the game like it's supposed to.
c) it gives a way for oath to play "the real game", rather than being some kind of meta/rogue deck.

I honestly think that "Vroman oath" is the best way to go with oath of druids since the monstruosity we used to call "tyrant oath" (best blue combo deck ever, yeah!).

Just my 2 cents