I have played Grim Long with a transformational Oath SB last december in Dülmen (Germany). There aren't that many players left playing T1 in Germany, but it was still a 5-0 record and the SB was pritty good. It helped vs. fishlike decks (e.g. Masks, got 2nd) and Shops. The last match was vs RG Beats and though Grim Long has a very decent matchup vs any aggro deck without FoW, Pyrostatic Pillar can be an pain and as far as I rember Oath helped me to win one game vs RG post SB.

Here is a link to that list:

http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-12-T1.html

Anyway, in the end I liked the Oath plan that much, that I played successfully with it maindecked in January, but this shouldn't be discussed here.

Yeah I about that. It got confirmed by 3 Judges (one LvL4). You don't have to pick a card, because it says non-land card. The reasoning sounds stupid, but it's the same with tutors. With Demonic you have to find a card, with Mystical you don't.
Another Example would be Nightmare Void and Thoughtseize.

@ Thoughtseize being misdirected:

I seems like some of you don't know that you don't have to pick a card. Therefore Thoughtseize being misdirected isn't as bad as some people tell you.

I played this deck on Sunday and got 2nd. It was a sanctioned tournament with 19 players and therefore T8 wasn't played out. I went 4:1 and lost only to manascrew (first game mulligan to 4, 2nd game I kept with SoE and one land, found an Aether Vial, but my opponent who played an "aggro-Flash-Deck" has his only strip-effect). I won vs 2x UB-Mask, Tyrant-Oath and MonoBlue-Stifle-Dreadnought.dec.

Here is a link to my decklist:

http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-10-T1.html

I tested Kobefan's last list vs. Gat and a DD-GT-Hybrid yesterday and was impressed. It's quite difficult for Gat to handle all your wizards and Vial just wins you the game if they don't have an explosive start. 4 Misdirection make sure, that their easy way of getting cardadvantage (Scroll => AR) gets a lot more difficult for gat-players.
At the moment I am thinking about playing this deck in a tournament this weekend. I am sick of playing Gat and my petdeck (UBr Long) isn't that viewable in the current metagame.
I know, that my testing yesterday was limited, but here are some suggestions:
1) First of all I think that 3 Islands and 4 Tundras are a better land-configuration, because vs. deck with Wastelands you still have 7 Fetchies/3 Islands/3 Vials/4 Gush. Vs other decks like Gat it's important to find a white source without losing to much tempo. First turn StP can be important and sometimes you need to activate 2 Apprentice. Therefore I would make this little change.
2) Vial is just sick in this deck. Sometimes it's a little slow but other than that it wins the lategame. It's a card that I want to see in every opening hand. Might up the count to 4.
3) I would either cut one StP or one Mindcensor for the 4th Vial, because a) they are white , b) I don't think that I need 4 StP main in my meta, c) I normally don't want to see 2 Mindcensor, because they don't pitch.

I might try this changes:
- Island, - StP, - Mindcensor, + Tundra, + BS, + Vial

I know that are just minimal changes, but kobefan's current maindeck is just that good!

Regarding the SB:
I won't have time to test a SB, therefore I am talking in theory. I think that Flash (if they got broken hands), Stax, Ichorid and Oath should be adressed with the SB.
In general, as kobefan said too, I don't like Flux in a deck with Vial/Needle after Sideboarding. Therefore I looked for better options vs. Stax and found Trygon Predator. Maybe it's not viewable, but in theory it should work with 4 Vials and 1 Tropical. You can board them vs. Oath too.
My current SB (not tested!) is this:
1x Swords to Plowshare
1x Tropical Island
2x Echoing Truth
3x Trygon Predator
3x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
1x open Slot

I think that without Disenchant, Kataki you don't need a Plains vs. Stax/Wastelands.

I hope, that some ideas might help making this deck better.

Irenicus

@ The Atog Lord:
That's the reason why I said "shouldn't get misdirected that often". It will happen, but the chance is smaller when you are playing 4 Duress as well. A misdirected Mind Twist looses you the game just as a misdirected Ancestral does. But you would never cut Ancestral from any deck playing blue (that's just a comparison, I don't want to say that Mind Twist is as good as Ancestral!). I unsterstand that in some deck Gifts is a better Bomb than Mind Twist, but is that true for a Slaver-List that plays only one Goblin Welder?

Just as a thought: What about Mind Twist instead of 2 Misdirections? With 4 Duress they shouldn't get misdirected that often and they work well with Drain too. Maybe it's a bad idea, but in my last tournaments I sometimes wished I had some Mind Twists in my deck (wasn't Slaver) and in general it can win you the game before your Will is lethal. I think that Tinker works in a same way, but maybe 2 additional early bombs won't hurt (early = before your Will is letha!).

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

As some of you might know I started playing Long with a 5c-version with Orim’s Chant. But after playing some others deck, I started playing Grim Long again, but this time Ubr. I contacted Eric via PM and I found a version that suited me well.
Now, with FS being legal, there are some changes to be made. Street Wraith might have a place in this deck, but it’s difficult to fit it in.

Here is my current list:

    Lands (10):
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Swamp
    Mana (18):
    2 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Cabal Ritual
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    Disruption and Defense (6):
    1 Rebuilt
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Duress
    Win (2):
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    Tutors (6):
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    3 Grim Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    Draw7s (4):
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Tinker
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Timetwister
    Broken stuff (5):
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Necropotence
    Others (9):
    1 Time Walk
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Street Wraith

Sideboard(15):

SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Extirpate

Some explanations and thoughts in general:

1) In my meta there aren’t played many Wastelands in recent time. Therefore I never felt that 11 land are barely enough. I sometimes even boarded 1 land out vs. Control.decs. Therefore with the addtion of Street Wraith and the 50/50 mana-ration, I cut a land and a Cabal Ritual for 2/4 Street Wraith. ( Btw the chances for drawing at least one land in your opening seven:  74%(10), 79%(11), 81%(12))

2) I never liked Mystical that much. It’s great with Jar and sometimes wins you a game just as any other card. But showing what you get is pretty bad vs. control.decs in general. Therefore I cut the Mystical and Infernal Contract (played that ofter Eric’s 3rd maindeck bounce-spell) for the other 2 Street Wraith.

3) Before I added Street Wraith I played with 1 EtW and 1 ToA as my maindeck winconditions. EtW maindeck was tech vs. Stax and Fish, but as Tinker/Colossus it didn’t feel right. Therefore I am playing 2 ToA at the moment. Another reason is, that with Street Wraith some draws can get pretty life-costing. Another options would be Burning Wish, but as Eric said it destroys your board and is just slower.

4) As many other metioned, Chain is a „must“ in the maindeck, as you don’t want to lose to MM or True Believer or Nether Void (Black Stax is rising ).

5) I am not sure wether SSG or Cabal Ritual is better in this version of long. I like boath in some ways. SSG fits my playstyle more,but with SW you get threshold faster and therefore SW makes Cabal Ritual better. And 5 rituals might be a little low for Necropotence.

6) I haven’t found EtW as good as i used to be anymore. Therefore i play only 2 in total. Together with cards that need rituals they really clock up your hand vs Fish.

7) Pyroclasm gets a SB-slot because our meta has some FCG and non-white Fish.decs.

Btw I still have 2 tournaments without the new B/R-Changes, therefore I don’t have Gush, but Gifts (still) in mind.


@ Eric:
1) Why do you board out I. Seal that often? I used to board out Mystical alot, but not I. Seal.
2) Some insights about 2 Tendrils as maindeck winconditions would be nice. As opposed to the 1/1 split with EtW or just 1 Tendrils.
3) How would SW impact your boarding-plans?

That’s it for now.



 

I am from Germany and had similar problems.

First off all, I wouldn't buy any pricy cards, before I haven't played in a tournament at all. The way to go for me, was that I played TMWA (TheMountainsWinAgain) for about 10 months, because it was/is one of the cheapiest unpowered decs. Playing T1 for some time really helped me understanding the format and showed me that this was/is the "right" format for me.
After that I bought the complete P9 in about 4 months (I have to say, that I just (both meanings) had the money).

I think that without having that much money, there isn't any better way than playing fish-style decs at the beginning. After that, I would try to get P9 first. Btw by playing in tournaments you get some knowledge about prices, make some friends who can help you with some cards and really get to know wether you want to play T1 or not (even if you play unpowered...).

@ Chant in general:
As I stated above, I thinkt, that Chant (can) work(s) in Grim Long. Sure, it alot easier to cast a Duress then a Chant, but my built for example plays 6 disruption spells and I don't like Swarm in the current metagame. Therefore I think, that Chant is a good addition to Duress.

Here are some arguments for Chant:

- Sometimes it timewalks. For example after a Draw7 you can Chant in there upkeep to prevent any "bad" things.
- It works vs Split Second and "makes" your turn safe. That's just like the Swarm ability, but without summoning-sickness. Therefore more surprising. Grim Long can be quite difficult to play and it's nice to know that your opponent can't interact. (I compare this reason to the addition of Tendrils in Meandeck-Gifts, because it makes wins easier to play out.)
- It can prevent your opponent from winning. I know that it doesn't happen that often, but it sometimes wins the game.
- Good player that know that you are a good player fear Orim's Chant. This means, that you can play Chant as a tool to mislead your opponent. For example you are on the draw and go City of Brass => Chant (holding 6 cards). Even if you don't have a great plan (eg. Lotus => Draw7) your opponent is forced to decide how "broken" your play is going to be. Making your opponent to make decissions is good. Another example is the "late game", where both players need to topdeck. You are holding 2 Lands and Chant to get your Chant countered to help resolving a bomb next turn (just like Duress or Swarm would do). Remeber, it's often right to counter Chant with your only counterspell to be able to play your Fow's after a Draw7.
- Vs. unpowered/decks without counterspells (e.g. Stax) it often works as a Timewalk.

That are just some reasons to try/play Chant. The point is, that Chant interacts with your opponent in a way, that you can (sometimes) abuse.
 

I just came from a tournament where I played 5c Grim Long with 3 Duress (4th SB) and 3 Orim's Chant (4th SB) maindecked. I went 5-1 vs. no Wastelands but alot of Gifts/TPS. I liked Chant alot, because it hasn't summoning sickness and works pritty well with Draw7's. In addition it can stop you opponent (only happened once, because normally I was in the winning position).

Which deck did you run? Urw or Urb and which version?


First off all, yes you are right, red is only played for a few cards. But how many black cards do you play in all the Ubx Fish-Decks? Normally only Dark Condiant and Duress!
Secondly in a deck with Ninja, playing Shaman can be better than playing things like CotV or Rod. Shaman still attacks and blocks if needed.
In general I don't get your whole replace-stuff thing. It is normal, that some cards can handle the same problem and that you can replace many cards with others. But I don't see any good maindeckworthy replacement for Lavamancer (he is a creature, removal for Welder, Dark Confidant and nearly all creatures played by any Fish-Deck and costs just R).
Last but not least red offers great SB-material with FTK, Rack and Ruin in addition to REB or Pyroblast.


I thought that I had mentioned my meta in my first post enough, but anyway it mainly consists of: Gifts, other Drain-Control Decks, Combo (mainly TPS), Fish- Decks and Stax. The reason that I know my meta that well, is, that we have 2 tournaments every month where alot of the same people participate and our meta doesn't change that fast. To sum it up, this deck should be built to have a good Drain and Combo-Matchup but still needs to be able to beat Fish-Decks and Stax (therefore I play 4 Rack and Ruin in my board). And yes, I know that you can't have only positive matchups and that your deck doesn't get better after boarding vs. every deck.

General thoughts:
What I really like about a Urw-Deck is, that you don't play any cards which change your deckbuilding ( Dark Confidant, CotV). Therefore you can play cards like Brainstorm, Gush or Misdirections.
Secondly the SB really works. Red offers great choices which trade 2-1 (FTK, R&R).

After playtesting some more vs. Gifts and Stax I am thinking about cutting one manasource and adding a 3rd Grunt. Maybe I cut 1 Tundra and 1 Volcanic Island for a 7th fetchland and the 3rd Grunt. The 7th fetchland would be good with Lavamancer, Brainstorm and Grunt and vs. stripeefects.

The last tournament I played in, I was running an Urbana-Fish-Deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20137) and got 2nd (sanctioned tournament, about 30 people, no T8 cut, about 25 people with power). I really liked the deck in general but thought about switching from Black to White for the following cards:

Meddling Mage (great in my metagame, because there is alot of Gifts and Drain-Decks in general)
Jotun Grunt (quick beater and pritty good in any matchup)
StP (imo better answer to big creatures than Waterfrontbouncer)
Orim's Chant (good SB-Material vs. Combo-Decks)
[to some degree] Gush (because I didn't want to run him in the same deck as D. Confidant)

Then I took a look at the cards which you loose when you cut Black:

Dark Confidant (great 1st Turn play, draw-engine on its own => Nr.1 Reason to play Black)
Duress (cheap disruption and gets information)
some SB-cards like Planar Void and/or Darkblast

Therefore I dediced that it was worth a try and started "my" URW-Project. The latest version is this:

Maindeck (60):

Lands (20):
    4  Volcanic Island
    4  Tundra
    1  Island
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
Creatures (17):
    4  Meddling Mage
    4  Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    3  Grim Lavamancer
    2  Jotun Grunt
Spells (23):
    1  Ancestral Recall
    2  Remand
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Gush
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Daze
    4  Force of Will
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby

Sideboard (15):

SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 4  Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4  Rack and Ruin

Random thoughts about the deck:

- I like CotV in some matchups, but needed to replace Dark Confidant with other "drawing-cards" (Brainstorm). Therefore I cut CotV, because in this deck I don't wont to play it for 1.
- Because I dropped CotV and Dark Confidant, I cut the off-colored Moxes which made it easier to get the right colors.
- Daze really shines, if combined with Mox Monkey and wasteeffects.
- FTK from the board hits later, because I dropped 2 Moxes, but they still win the Aggro-Matchups quite often.
- Remand with Meddling Mage and NotDH is sometimes really nice (read: Remand a spell, bounce MM via NotDH and replay MM naming the remanded card).
- StP gets online earlier than W. Bouncer but can't be played before your opponent is going to tinker.
- From testing Drain- and Combomatchups are solid, but you need to find a "tempo-hand". Slow hands (like no Fow, Daze or Mox) just lose to current Drain-Decks.
- Stax can be ugly, but 4 Rack and Ruin help and in my meta (mainly Drain- and Combodecks) the number of good Stax-Players decreases constantly.

Some cards which didn't make the cut but maybe should have:
- Misdirection (can be played instead of Remands)
- Tormod's Crypt (I like Orim's Chant more and here in this part of Germany there are only very few (0-2 per tournament) Ichorid-Decks)
- Fire/Ice (great vs. Aggro and pitchable)
- Kataki (good vs. manahungry decks, but imo not needed in addition to 4 Mox Monkeys)
- Sacred Ground (SB-Card vs. other Fish-Decks and Stax)
- maindeck Blast (sometimes a good surprise, cheap)
- Bounce (vs. ETW, but it hasn't got seen much play here, maybe that changes due to Brassmans Win)

I hope this can be a good starting point for a discussion about Urw-Fish.

I think that the major weakness of the deck is that i can't draw cards ( i tried D. Confidant, but didn't like him). Therefore you need to have the right cards in time.
The reasoning for my SB is that after Game 1 you know which Silverbullets you want to bring in and vs fast Decks like Grim Long an Enlightened Tutor works as a fast way to get you a missing Pillar of Crypt.

About my matchups, i think that Oath is bad. But we don't have many Oath players here, therefore it doens't matter that much. Another pritty bad matchup is FCG or Goblins in general. You have many dead cards vs. them and is very difficult do handle a Siege Gang. I have won some games vs Goblins but never won a match.

What i like to play against is any kind of Ux Fish. We have alot of them here, but only a few good players who play it. First game can get a little bit rough, but after boarding it's really a good matchup (Blast, Jitte, CoW). Another good matchup is Dragon. You have many good cards vs. them (Crypt, Chant, StP, Seal, Strip Effects, even Shaman/Spree/Blasts aren't that  bad vs the newer Dragon-Versions) and it really takes a good dragon-pilot/-sideboard to take you down.

Another Matchup i want to talk about is Stax. First of all vs a bad Stax-player you have a good game with every version of TMWA, BUT a good and experienced player can give you a hard time (e.g. setting the Chalices right, knowing when to drop Smokestack, don't run a Tinker into a blast, how to play around a crypt...). I had played with Vandals for a long time, but vs any other matchup then Stax i liked the Shamans more and vs Metal Woker Stax (i know, that they arent that popular in the US) Vadanl became worse. Therefore i tried Welder+Shaman+Spree and it worked for me. I am not saying, that Stax is a bye (cause it's not, no matter with version of TMWA you play), but with my decklist the matchup is not worse then with any other version of this deck and Mountains + Shattering Spree can give you quite an early game winning advantage.

Matchups like Gifts or Slaver can go either way, but i am not afraid of them. You just need a good combination of cards in your opening hand.

Hello all, let me first introduce myself as a first-time poster on themanadrain.com and this thread. I am from Germany and played my first T1-tournament  January 06 with TMWA. Then i played the deck in every tournament (one exception) until October 06(made 3 Top8, the last one with this list).
I started with the "oldschool" Version (Kami, Genju, Blasts main), tried Hide/Seek main relatively early (meaning when the card was first legal) and finally moved to my last version:

Maindeck(60):

3x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
2x Battlefield Forge
4x Mountain
3x Plateau
4x Mishra's Factory

4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Orim's Chant
4x Sword to Plowshares
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Gorilla Shaman
4x Goblin Welder
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Shattering Spree
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Magma Jet

Sideboard (15):

1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sacred Ground
2x Seal of Cleansing
3x Pyroblast
4x Red Elemental Blast
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Crucible of Worlds

I know, that it looks alot different from the version that you play in the US, but after playing the deck for over 8 months, i settled on this list for my metagame. Btw in our local tournaments we get unpowered prices, therefore (and because at the beginning i hadn't any power) i played TMWA mainly unpowered.

Let me explain some cardchoices:

Batllefield Fourge:
This is mainly in the deck to random prevent loses vs. Sundering Titan. I played for a long time with 4 Plateau and 1 Sacred Foundry but lost too many games to the Titan. Therefore i made that little swith and never looke bad, because it never hurt me and helped a little bit vs. Sundering Titan.

Orim's Chant:
Normally i played with four Pyroblast main, but sometimes they were just dead and therefore i tried Orims Chant. I am still not sure wether it is the right call, but Orim's Chan is (at least) able to use proactive and not just reactive (as Pyroblast).

Shattering Spree:
It's not that i am in a big Stax-Meta, but i really like Spree vs Gifts and Slaver Game 1. Is like Shaman 5-8 vs. them, but sometimes better (read: Replicate).

In genereal t tested and played a lot of different versions and lately settled on a more focused version. I don't like 1 and 2 off's in this deck and therefore my versions looks a little bit too straight from a certain point of view. But my reasoning is, that you want your hate cards as fast as possible online and that means (e.g.) that you need to play 4 Crypts.

Anyway, just ask, if you can't understand certain choices.

At the moment i am playing Bomberman and testing that deck, but maybe i will switch back to TMWA for the last tournament in this season (year).