Ok, so after testing it seems that TMWA is probably just better. However, I never really liked playing that deck so I'm going to work on a UBW deck. I think it's going to wind up like Fish but with no countermagic. Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and help!

That is a very good point, I never thought of that. I think that probably spells the end for the Chalice/EE combo. I think the EE now has to be an Echoing Decay. I think I'll stick with Chalice for now. It hasn't hurt me yet and it has been VERY useful in beating combo so far. If I see situations where I wish it was a Null Rod than I'll make the change and try that.


I think I already said that 

I am aware that Chalice for 3 is almost never going to happen, but like I said, I don't think it's completely far fetched, just mostly I think the tone of some of my arguments didn't really come through. Both Chalice and Null Rod suck against fish, I just think that Chailice sucks slightly less as there are situations (like if I have a creture out and they don't) where it can help out. If we're in mid game and I have a lavamancer out and then drop Confident/Wretch/Grunt, Chailce actually does something to help ensure a win while Rod is dead. Obviously you don't want to draw either and in reality its just going to be discarded to the Bazaar anyway. 

I find that a first turn Chalice for 0 makes it very hard for combo to go off. They usually have to spend a turn to tutor up a bounce spell and then go off the turn after that. It buys me 1 turn in which to get a Wretch or Extripate to mess with them. Null Rod does the same thing but it's not as easy to play turn 1. For example if I have 1 Dark rit and no moxes along with confident/wretch and a duress, Chailce is WAY better than Rod. Basically, it comes down turn 1 every time you have it in opening hand while Rod may not. I do like Echoing Decay but the only other deck that it's good against is fish and EE is better. Also, Chailce at 1 after initial disruption slows down the recovery of combo (no brainstorm) and it improves the odds of your beaters killing them before they recover. Against fish, a game 1 Chalice at 2 CAN be lethal in the right situation while null rod is just dead. Obviously either one gets boarded out. EE can be useful at things other than 0 (and at 0 it also kills tokens which Monkey doesn't). Against fish it can be major card advantage at 1 or 2. And it isn't COMPLETELY far fetched to play it at 3 and kill a Crucible and/or Tanglewire/Trinisphere vs stacks. So while I generally like Rod over Chalice, I think the Chalice/EE combo gives you more options than the Rod/Echoing Decay combo in this deck. But thanks for making me actually go through and think about why I felt that way. It's always good to question an assumptionn every now and again

Quick rules question, if there is an artifact in play with a casting cost of X (i.e. Chalice) is it's casting cost considered 0 if I want to kill it with a Monkey or is it what cost was actually paid (so it's casting cost would be 2 if played with 1 counter)? I'm pretty sure it's 0 but I wanted to double check. Thanks!

Yes, my mistake.

After much testing against gifts and pitch long, I am liking the Chalices and Extripates. I have also found that Bloodmoon isn't useful. It's too slow and those decks run at least 3 basic lands anyway so it's pretty dead most of the time. Another thing that was bothersom is the lack of a clock. There simply isn't enough damage in the deck. Assuming I can get them on their heels in the furst two turns, I need to immediately get a serious threat down before they can stableize. So after reading the W/B hate thread I decided to splash white (and damn it this is going to turn into TMWA but whatever) and add Bazzars. Without Bloodmoon and with the addition of the Grunts, I figure Bazaar is pretty solid. New List:

Creatures: 18
4 Dark Confident
4 Withered Wretch
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Grunt
4 Mox Monkey

Sorceries: 9
4 Duress
3 Extripate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg Will

Instants: 6
1 STP
1 Vamp Tutor
4 Dark Ritual

Artifacts: 9
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

Lands:  18
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Badlands
4 Bazaar
4 Scrublands

It seems pretty sweet. I can't wait to test it. The average mana cost per card is down to .783 as far as the Confident goes (or .789 assuming you have 2 lands and Confident already in play). The sideboard is going to need some work. Right now the plan is this:

3 REB
1 Pyroblast
3 STP
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Jitte
1 EE
1 Lavamancer

I decided against FTK in the board now that I can run plows instead, FTK hits me for 4 with Confident and I'd rather give my opponant 4 life than me lose 4.

I agree that Leline is sweet, but it's more expensive and it's not a creature. To make it effective you need to run 4 and that only gives you like a 40% chance of having it in the opening hand? After that it's pretty dead. The deck is supposed to be aggro/controlish so it can slow them down while putting them on a clock ala Fish.

It's also hard to justify Bloodmoon in the sideboard because what am I gonna put it in against, anything with non-basic lands? I appreciate the suggestions but I definitely want to see how effective the moon can be before cutting it. I know it seems to be silly with the Factories but those are only in there because I felt I had enough red mana and they do damage.

So right now I am going to take out the 2 bolts and add 3 Extirpate and 3 Chalice (original list was 56 cards) and see how it goes. I also like the FTK in the board, good idea.

Since I started building decks based on some understanding of the metagame (1997 or so) I have always taken great pride in building a deck that can beat the dominant deck in the format. A brief example is when I started main decking 2 Rust because the best deck at my local tournament killed by using City of Brass during it’s upkeep to go down to 0 life with a Mirror Universe to switch life totals. The rest of the deck was discard effects so they wouldn’t have a Spellblast for the Rust . I realize that in the current type 1 environment no top deck can be completely shut down, but I would really like to build something that has a good chance of stopping the gifts deck. Here in New England all of the top players seem to be playing that or some other Tendrils combo deck that rely heavily on the graveyard as a resource. Well, this is my answer so far. This deck also does pretty well against Fish. I have a few open slots still and I’d like some more beatdown creatures.

4   Dark Confident
4   Withered Wretch
4   Grim Lavamancer
4   Duress
4   Bloodmoon
4   Mox Monkey
2   Engineered Explosives
2   Lightning Bolt
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
4   Bloodstained Mire
1   Polluted Delta
4   Badlands
4   Mishras Factory
5   Swamp
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
4   Dark Ritual
1   Lotus Petal

The Wretches, Blood Moons and Monkeys can hopefully slow them down enough that the 20 creatures can beat them down. I initially had Mogg Fanatic as the other creature because it’s good against fish (and it’s one of my all time favorite cards) but that is ultimately to slow. I figure to board in REB’s against Gifts and some simple creature removal against Fish (maybe I can finally play my Beta Terrors!). I fully admit that I don’t play the Gifts deck anywhere close to optimally but a first turn duress and a second turn Wretch really slows me down. It almost forces me to go with the tinker/Colossus kill. Now if that actually resolves and I still have a double digit life total, the game is over because the Blood Moon deck simply has no answer for a big fattie. But if I can’t find Tinker fast enough (and if the EE’s and the Monkeys leave me with any artifacts) it’s been a very tough game so far. I have not tested post board as yet. Any thoughts?