I ran my original list at BoM against 7 MUD-variants, winning 6 and loosing one. I have never felt facing a Workshop-deck with 5c to be a nightmare, this is actually my favorite match-up. Take out their artifacts you are really loosing against (Crucible, Lodestone) and time is on your side. Your draws are better and your ability to obtain control is better because of all artifact hate. SoR is not bad preboard in the Workshop-matchup since it, combined with Crucible, will seal the game for you. The spheres are though naturally boarded out because the board contains better options.

This deck has much worse problems against Dredge and Dark Confidant. It is not that it can not win, it is just the randomness that does not feel comfortable to me. Land-mox-Confidant is, to me, the most feared enemy opening, to which I do not have any quick answers (tutor for Balance or resolving Trike being the only relevant). If I do not get a solution to Confidant, I am likely to loose the match. This is a quite different story if you are running a Workshop variant with Lodestones since you are then racing for life totals and Confidant must not be dealt with at the same necessity. Confidant will in the end probably serve as a blocker and, by that time, has likely also hurt your enemy (which is your target). I am thinking about a Pyroclasm in the board against Bob.dec (also Snapcasters and Clique are neutralized) and also Fish (mainly to take out Noble Hierarch).

Dredge is often a match-up where I loose the first game, win the second on the play and loose the third on the draw. It is not 100 % but it is the most likely scenario. What I do not like in G3 is the mull-to-Leyline strategy since it will likely cost me some mulliganing and enemy will play land-bounce/hate anyway on the play. Spheres do not help here, they are just too slow. With Tormod/Nihil Spellbomb I can instead play it on the draw with a sphere-backup. The Welders increase quite a bit in strength with artifacts as graveyard hate. Has anyone tested the Dredge-matchup thoroughly? 4 Leylines + 1 Tormod vs. 5 mixed artifacts?

I am thinking of the new artifact that turns your lands to rainbow lands, any thoughts on this one? I think I like it over Mox Opal since Opal often does nothing amazing, but this artifact can really get you on line again in many common situations (i.e. you control a sphere, a Workshop and a singleton rainbow land and want to cast multicolored spells.)

Hi there and thanks for your post! Yes, it was very nice meeting you and your friends at BoM, if nothing VERY unexpected happens I will definitely go next year, it was totally awesome!

Here is my list that went 6-2-1 in the main event (lost third and ninth to Bomberman/Stonforge Control, if I would have won the ninth I would be in top-8):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland

Board
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sylvok Replica
2 Triskelion
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

My reflections on the deck after the tournaments were these:
1) It it very strong against shops (esp MUD). Ancient Grudge and Sylvok Replica is an amazing pair.
2) Fish is difficult but winable (lost one, drew one).
3) I was unprepared for Batterskull which imo is a very strong deck against this deck (has a high percentage to reach six permanents round 2).
4) I never used Chains of Meph.
5) Leyline is maybe not the best answer to Dredge at the moment (many Dredge-lists runs Chains and Natures Claim in the board). Often I loose the first, MAYBE win the second and then likely loose the third (I start with Leyline, enemy plays land-bounce/crash). Leyline i not enough to secure the game, a sphere is a must. On the other hand: modern Dredge is not as fast as it was and maybe Tormod/Nihil is worth testing?
6) Thorn of Amethyst is not as strong anymore with combo less popular and Bob-control more popular. A resolved Bob can generally only be dealt with six-drops and Balance, Smokestack is not enough.
7) The deck should be careful with all 1-drops not to make Mental Misstep a good counter. You often love to see Crop Rotation in your hand but it is risky. Against shops, however, it is amazing.

At the moment, I am playing around with the following changes:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
(-1 Sundering Titan)
and the following options
+1 Maze of Ith
or
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
or
+1 Cavern of Souls
(and/or
+1 Triskelion)

I like Maze because it is uncounterable, possible to fetch with Crop Rotation and wins you valuable time against Fish, Batterskull, etc. (Maybe I am getting paranoid about Batterskull?)

I have not tested Cavern of Souls so much yet, what is your impressions?

Phyrexian Metamorph is nice but is also only a copy and needs a original. If the enemy is going all in it is great, but cards that do stuff on their own (Uba Mask, Orb of Dreams, etc.) is more productive if the table has run blank of cards on both sides. Don't get me wrong, I like him, I am just thinking about pros and cons. What is your idea with choosing him instead of, let's say Triskelion #2? (a card that I believe is very strong right now)

Taking out a Smokestack is interesting, I have been in and out on this one. Maybe -1 Smokestack and +1 Crop Rotation could be something? (with the Maze/Cavern-option above).

In the board I am thinking of abandoning Leyline and adding +2 Tormod and +3 Nihil Spellbomb. I also want to add a Pyroclasm and maybe cut the Thorns.

As you can see, not much has happened (vacation and work has put Vintage aside), but I am now taking it up again and will play more frequently in the near future.

I wish you all the best!

Should be good in MUD/Stax with Welder, Lodestone Golem and Duplicant.

@BruiZar:
I do not quite follow you. You address me in 3:rd person to get on top of me? Sorry but I am not after getting put in place or to put anyone in place.

Yes it is true that I like fun. Maybe you do not? (In which case I feel sorry for you.) But having fun is not my hypothesis or even my question. My hypothesis (that really surprised me in the beginning of this year) is that you do not have to be lightning-fast to have a good chance to beat lightning-decks. A consistent deck can be just as good, if you know which hands to keep. My explanation (built on the experiences from tourneys this year) is that Magic is not black or white. You will not ALWAYS face the worst enemy start that will ruin your chances to stay in the game, say five rounds. As I have noticed you will MOST LIKELY stay in the game for at least five rounds for two out of three games.

As I think I have written many times: LODESTONE GOLEM IS GOOD. You do not have to take any offence or suspect otherwise. I think MUD with 4xLodestone can come up in a great variety and they are definitely Tier 1 imo. I am not avoiding Lodestone, I just do not think he is good in this build (by arguments written many times already). He is a Stax-piece and I know quite a lot about tempo cards. He is a tempo card against me for MUD since I am including colored spells which the MUD player is not.
Also I feel that you and everybody else is referring to Lodestone Golem in way that it seems like a 100 % chance that the MUD-player will resolve a Lodestone Golem T1 and that the MUD-player also always wins the flip. This was at least not true when I played Lodestone myself and it is equally not true when I meet MUD-players. If you always bring up Lodestone Golem in an upset way, claiming that a T1-Golem is so good and so likely if you just include him in your deck, I can not really take it seriously.

I agree with you on Tinker, it has not been so strong. Even though it gets answers, enables Welder, sometimes finish the game, I feel three non-shop mana, in this build (without real bombs), is too much. I also agree with Wurmcoil, I have replaced him with Trike (mostly because Bob and Jace).

I do not agree at all with the tutors however, they are actually what makes the deck so flexible. I understand that you want me to build mono-R or MUD instead but this thread is a discussion about 5c-stax. The black pieces in 5c is the tutors, and they are there for a reason. In my opinion, they serve the purpose of the deck: consistency. True, they are not faster than artifacts, but as written above: I am not sure you have to be that fast if you can catch up with consistency. The tutors gets me what I want, when I want it.

The question is: Has anyone REALLY tested 5c? What is your feeling about its pros and cons? And I mean not by playing the deck as stressed as a MUD-player has to play his deck, but really soft and thoughtfull? I have heard fear so far, in my ear it sounds like my own thoughts a year ago. Now I have tested the 5c-deck, I am not playing in panic anymore, and I am winning.

So I hear that I am quite alone with my general opinion but I also hear that others too feel concerned about shops, which is nice. I recognise many thoughts and feelings from my own head but I must give it another try to explain what is new with my thread.

For the last three years I have felt more and more stressed playing Workshops. Why? Well, everybody keeps telling that the format is getting faster and faster. And I think that is true in the sense that it has become much more precise and critical when choosing the right play. Before, I thought it meant you have to be playing the game faster, killing at turn 0 preferably or at least by end of turn 1. I have built versions where I have tried to force the level of destruction and threats to infinity (still trying to maintain consistency and mana stability of course), just because I want to be the fastest and strongest. Everybody else tried to be the fastest and strongest so that must be the truth? I have been playing Vintage for 16 years and followed the development of the format from The Abyss to the new Gush and Time Vault-era. This is the truths I have found:
1) You still draw 7 cards before the first main phase and you still have only one draw step (which is usually the only draw a shop-player gets). That means no matter how many threats I put in, I will only in the best case have four good, castable cards and three mana cards in my opening hand and I will (in the best case) only draw one new threat per turn.
2) 1st turn kills are much more frequent today than it was. However, in tournaments, they are still quite rare and most games will likely see at least five turns from each player.
3) The possibility to put up a show of art in playing things you did not think was possible before is a reality today.
4) Lack of consistency is hindering the format to be dominated by decks that focus on the first turn only (with Dredge as an exception).
5) The match is still about being the best out of three games, which will mean you will have three, often very different, games with the same opponent.

There is a recent article about Espresso stax on channelfireball. In the article the author shines his knowledge on how important speed is today and what he says is very politically correct in today's Vintage discussion. Last in the article comes a tournament report which basically says: it did not work as he wanted. I have felt the same sometimes and my own frustration was based on the feelings that:
1)   Even though I kept a good hand (some of it got FoWed away), I did not draw the necessary followups to maintain pressure and win the match.
2)   I felt back tied by the facts that I was needing to get the threat level high early. It was quite obvious when I was losing, I could just watch the enemy terror level. When he started to get that “So what's next?”-expression and my hand replied “Nothing serious really”, I would lose. The enemy defense strategy could move to offence and I had nothing to put up.
Please do not get me wrong here: I did well in national tourneys last year as well, playing Lodestone at the time. This year, however, I felt I would like to try something unorthodox so I started to think about what a 5c-shell would look like and, most of all, feel like.
To my surprise I am playing with a very much different feeling of play, and the result is not coming up worse, actually it is even better than before, winning the national championships for one. Sure I am probably losing a couple of games I would have won before due to low threat level in the beginning, but I am definitely winning many games I would have lost before. Those games are the ones that actually are more frequent, with not so exciting openings, but where both players have kept decent hands.
My prejudice that have developed during the last three years, that you have to be faster than light, has gotten a flaw, and I do not think that is a so solid truth anymore. The debate has become quite loud sometimes and the focus of the debate is to find the “one and only truth” out there. My intention of this thread was to put that debate into question and the theory that you always have to be fastest to win into question. – I know you have to be faster today than yesterday, but the question should still be asked on how you can find new balances between consistency, strength and speed. MUD is one kind of balance which focuses much on speed and I think MUD is the natural home for cards like Lodestone Golem.
So far I have only heard arguments like:
1)   You must include Lodestone Golem.
2)   You must include more spheres.
3)   You must include Chalice.
which is perhaps true if your reality relies on the popular way of observing Vintage. I have not heard anyone that has actually tested 5c against various decks in the current meta and come up with a proper analysis more than “I lost one game to an opponent that was faster than me.”. For me it is tournaments that count. To put up a deck that lasts for 7-8 matches (each in best of three games) and comes out as a winner. If it does I think you have to put up better arguments than saying I must build another deck.

White Dragon: I ran Mirror Universe too back in 1994-95. You do not have to exaggerate your loath by bringing up arguments not even worth commenting.

I understand that you do not think 5c Stax is a good deck but I still cannot understand several of your statements in other ways than that you have not tried it enough. Your opinions that rg won't have trouble with 5c or that Tangle/Smokestack is not good against Shop-mox-Lodestone suggests I must have made the impossible in all those matches where I actually won against these decks/plays. In contrast to you I am not saying MUD is not a strong deck (though I think it is really boring to play, which is one of my most important reasons to check out alternatives), in my experiences in playing against MUD, however, I cannot say I am not in favor with 5c (counting sideboard cards). Maybe I have just been extremely lucky or I have just met bad players, but to tell the truth I do not think so.

I agree with your statement that MUD have stronger opening than 5c, this was exactly what I meant before when I was comparing Uba/monoR/MUD against 5c in tempo. 5c is without doubt less aggressive and has weaker T1-plays than the others, with the benefit that it is really dangerous if it survives to mid-game. In the tourneys I have played with 5c this year, I somehow often do exactly that in which case I mostly win.

I think beaters are effective threats. I also think Lodestone is a real issue, I do not understand why you would think I did not? I am just bored playing Lodestone and I do not want to join what everybody else are playing. That is why I, this year, have picked up the deck I always longed to play (after 5 years with monoR versions, which were all pretty solid but lacked that magic feeling a bit). I felt (and still feel) like an underdog in the tourneys I attended with 5c but the solidity and stability of the deck have surprised me several times and I have been doing rather well as a lone 5c-player. That is why I wonder if this deck is really a forgotten treasure since I find it unlikely that I could have been so tremendously lucky all the time. Many many times I end up with the thought: OK so you play that, but I have a good reply in hand. The situation seldom looks hopeless (except against 1st turn kills from Storm, Lodestone+Chalice@0 followed by Waste+Tangle, T1 Time Vault+Key), even Oath on Turn 1 is possible to deal with, which felt much more difficult when I was running more creatures.

Yes, to that I loose, but so does practically anything/anyone else. Actually he does not need the Tangle Wire, with the first start it looks pretty tough for 5c to recover. Fortunately it is not a that common start or we could all stop playing different decks and just play MUD altogether. More likely is Workshop-mox-Lodestone go to which I have several options:
1) resolving my own Tangle Wire which buys me time.
2) Getting my Crucible online and making Tangle Wire/Smokestack even more devastating to the enemy.
3) Finding my artifact hate with my own moxen-mana. After this Welder will do what he is supposed to do.

I am not saying that I am in favor pre-board to that opening, it is just that you cannot consistently count on enemy laying out the worst possible threats. I am just saying that I have met several MUD builds and I have won far more matches than I have lost. To me that shows that the risk of enemy ruining my chances to get back in the match is not greater than my chances to get on top. I am actually quite thrilled to meet other shop decks, they often turn out quite tight matches which I, so far, mostly have won. Besides that I am on the play in half of the matches and my deck can put up some decent T1-plays as well (since the enemy usually has no way to ruin my artifacts).

I want to comment some things according to my experience with Shops:
1) I feel 5c is the least aggressive Shop deck and you always make the deck a favor if you do not rush things as needed with the creature-based Shop variants. Lodestone screams Tempo and the general idea with putting him in the deck is to explode faster than your enemy. My play stile with 5c is totally different compared to Uba, Lodestone-stax or MUD, all of the latter being much more depending on actually doing something quickly before your enemy resolves anything dangerous. Here is where 5c instead sorts the alternatives and you can finally know what the correct EOT target for Vampiric is. It is a reactive, rather slow deck strategy compared to Lodestone-stax that says: OK I've got Lodestone and Chalice@0, try to get out of it before it is too late.

2) I also feel that 5c is the most skill-demanding of all Shop decks (with red variants coming up second) which makes the debate even more trickier (since there are other skill-demanding blue decks that the skilled players tend to enjoy more). When Stax won in 2005 everybody thought i was wrong: Slaver was the deck of the year. Trinisphere was out of business and so was Stax. You would certainly be beaten by Slaver sooner or later in a tournament so why just not join the winning team instead of sitting in the loser's lounge? Actually most good players where playing Slaver but Roland showed them you did not have to. I, myself, am better off with Shops than with blue, but I like the challenge of Magic and do not like to throw everything on the table and just look questionably on my enemy: do you have an answer? If he does: I loose, if he don't: I win. Why just not play an ordinary die game where the highest win? Or play dredge? The look on the T8-list show not only what is the best decks, but what is the most popular decks among the good players and blue clearly is at the moment. I feel that skill is a big issue in Vintage and the question of which deck is the strongest must stand in relation to who is playing it. I would even go as far as claiming that every deck type attracts its typical players, because of personality.

3) Against MUD, Lodestone is a fairly common T1 enemy play. If not fallowed by Chalice@0, however, it is much less of a threat and I have four turns to find an answer. Obviously if I kept the wrong hand (only Spheres and Smokestacks) I will likely loose, but if I have moxen and colored bombs I will likely have time enough to dig for an answer. Also, the metamorphs are not so happy coming into play when I Grudge their target-to-be Lodestone.

4) I have tried several Shop decks and the main conclusion is that 5c is the best at coming back mid-game. The other basically run out of fuel if the enemy destroys your initial plays. An interesting question is thus: is it too vulnerable during the initial turns? My experience suggest it isn't.

Thanks everybody for your reply!

@madmanmike: I am fully aware what Lodestone Golem does to the game and I have tried him in several tournaments with success. I know he is a huge asset and that he alone has changed Vintage. I am just saying that for my playstyle he does not fit. My objection to Lodestone in the types of decks that I prefer to play is:
1) Against MUD he is dead meat. He negatively affects my Welders and artifact hate when I go monored and a large number of bombs if I go 5c while he does nothing negative to the MUD player and most often has to stay on defence. Actually, I rather have Obstianus against MUD since he at least successfully blocks enemy Lodestone and survives and at the same time does not make my colored spells worse. Enemy + own Lodestone (not an unlikely scenario) makes my Welders cost 3 non-shop mana while he happily can keep throwing his beasts without penalty.
2) He introduces one thing traditional Stax is no good at: dealing damage. In MUD he is ideal since he enforces Mud's game plan: dealing a lot of damage, quick at the same time as making enemy slower to recover. In Stax he feels like a sphere that does not affect moxen (for four mana) and that also does not share the game plan of the rest of the cards.

I definitely agree that there are very strong monored builds with Lodestone but when you go to the bottom he does not quite seem optimal when you compare to his position in MUD. In MUD he is perfect since he checks all criteria for the decks purpose. My statement is taking stand against Lodestone, I know his position. I am just not a creature player (I would NEVER play Tarmogoyf even if they forced me to), I do not feel thrilled by winning matches through resolving Lodestone and Chalice@0 T1 and a random Tangle Wire a turn after that. I feel thrilled by making the right decision with Tutors and Welders. The question is: Does that attitude automatically put me in second league or is it possible to build colored Stax variants to the premier league.

Regarding trading Mox Opal, that has happened twice in tournaments, one time it was crucial since I got an artifact in his yard to exchange for his Time Vault. The next thing I was doing was continuously changing back the Opals, killing his artifacts.

@WhiteDragon: I have tried the combination Thorn-Lodestone many times, often successfully. The problem with them is that to cover everything you have to have both online. Thorn alone will let enemy cast Trygon or Bob, a lonesome Lodestone may be more solid byt enemy can still get tons of mana from his moxen. That is what I like with Sphere; it allways affects everything equally bad. There is no shortcut and, as I wrote above, against MUD both Thorn and Lodestone will only hurt me, not my enemy. In MUD I think both Thorn and Lodestone is far better than Sphere, since you are faster than Bob and also likely to be faster than Trygon. In Stax I do not think this is the case, I often feel I need solid pieces that allow no shortcut.

Metamorphs I have yet to try out more and I will do so by cutting my colored artifact and enchantment hate.

I understand that you like damage and that you maybe does not care how you win, just that you win. Your choices of cards heavily depend on creatures and I think your list looks quite solid. What is your experiences with playing it against MUD? How do you stand against TPS? Jace?

@Lochinvar: I can understand a singleton Lodestone somewhat, but do you not think Karn is better? How did you cope with MUD?

Additional comments:
I feel Trike is good, since he is effective against Jace. I am also felling dubious to include many high cc spells since I want to be able to play what I draw. That is the reason why I have omitted Sundering Titan (I hate to say it but 8 mana sucks to hardcast). I also like Sensei's Divining Top in 5c since it increases your chances to draw the unfair cards and it can save you against Jace.

How good is Choke today (as a SB card)? Anyone tried it?

I have been playing different types of Stax lists in the last five years. I like the brutality of the red types but also the nice and warm feeling to control the field with a lonesome Welder. The mana consistency is nice and the available red sideboard slots are handy in many matchups.

I will immediately confess that I am not a big fan of MUD (mono-brown), beaters have simply never matched my personality. I often get blaimed by my friends (and foes) that I forget to include win-cons in my builds and not seldom the actual card that wins me the match is the same lonesome Welder I used to get the situation under total control. I do not feel comfortable with Lodestone, Hellkite, Wormcoil, Juggernaut or Precursor Golem. They are, to me, just other versions of Obstianus Golem i.e. beaters that do nothing else than reducing life totals. They do not change the board state like Uba Mask, Balance, Duplicant, Tinker or Sundering Titan. I am not playing Magic simply to win, but to win with that lovely feel-good feeling that Magic is all about (at least to me). That Magic feeling.

I am also a person that is getting older than I once was and I seldom feel that new cards will "totally wreck" Vintage since Vintage, so many times, have shown to smoothely adapt any change to come (except maybe Flash). Tinker is still Tinker and Ancestral is still good. The newly hyped artifact eventually show to be simply worse than the previously printed artifacts. Cards that are given the grade "will probably see some play" actually do not see any play (anywhere) and cards that are obiously good will eventually find its place. The meta slightly shifts its position in its, already comfortable, spot in its couch. I am thinking that what was really good yesterday is probably not completely worhless today just because you can trade a single card for zero mana with an enemy card for one mana.

That is a slow intrododuction to simply make this proposal: 5C stax is an underrated archtype in Vintage 2011.

Why?

OK, let's start with something to discuss, a list:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bazaar of Baghdad

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Wormcoil Engine

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Jester's Cap
2 Sylvok Replica
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 In the Eye of Chaos

What are the benefits with this list? Well, it can deal with basically anything on the market. I have tried it in several tournaments and it performs very well (fourth place, second and win) and is as solid as a rock, given that you dare to mulligan a not-good-enough-hand.

Card-by-card analysis (in no particular order) to show what it is all about:
Crop Rotation
Changes the state once it resolves. A really power house that will surprice your enemy each time you cast it ("Oh, so you can actually get THAT land from it?!" is a common enemy face expression). It answers to enemy Wastelands, finds sollutions to Oath (Maze of Ith), makes that innocent T1 Welder a monster (Bazaar), all of the sudden gives you that feared Workshop that your enemy thought you had to actually draw and last but not least finds Strip Mine which do not have to be explained further. It combines smoothely with Crucible and it gets your land directly on the field without eating up your land-drop. And no: you do not have to sacrifice the land you use to pay Crop Rotations mana cost with (logically not psychologically obvious).

Ancient Grudge
MUD is a strong archetype and Grudge is probably the most flexible and precise answer you can get online against it. It deals with just the right threat (compared to Rack and Ruin which usually destroys the bad guy and a mox, which is not bad but not insanely good). Grudge destroys enemy moxen against decks where mana from moxes are as important as from lands (Combo) and it deals with Time Vault and Key. An alltogether solid card that is useful in a Toolbox-oriented deck like 5c Stax.

Nature's Claim
Cheaper than Grudge and handles Oath of Druids (a real pain for any Workshop-list). Otherwise the same function. Also good to have cards with different casting cost when it comes to working around enemy Chalices, you will allways have an answer (which is the general idea with the deck).

Sylvok Replica
Many Times I have Tinkered this guy (to win the Crucible war against MUD) or to be in a good position against Oath decks. It has the following differences compared to Claim and Grudge which is why it stays:
1) Weldable
2) Tinker target
3) CC 3
4) Castable with Workshop

Wormcoil Engine
So, here you have it, my biggest concern and headache: a beater. The reason this guy is in is TPS. A few beatings with the Engine and a Hurkyl's Recall is not as threatening as it could be. Even one blow is giving the TPS player troubles when it comes to additional storm count needed to finish me off. Also, this guy is insane against MUD, which is a good feature these days. The handy combo with Welder and Smokestack is probably a "win more" effect of this card and I would never include him for that reason alone. Actually I am now shifting more towards Trike since he is better against Jace (though worse against TPS).

Trinisphere
Really dangerous aginst MUD but so strong against pretty much anyghing else. Trini is always a question of what meta you are in but my number of Crucibles (three is quite on the high side) suggests he stays. I figure I will win the Wasteland war against MUD Game 1 and in Game 2 and 3 Trini is not an issue since he will not be in the deck.

Balance
Oh, I love this card, so unfair. The best example of its brokeness was this summer where I was on the draw against MUD and he opened with Workshop-Metalworker, and looked quite happy about it when I gave him my thumb up. I answered on my turn with three moxen and Balance and his face was suddenly not so happy anymore.   Balance is often the right Tutor-target and you will allmost allways come out as a winner after resolving it. Balance is the best reason to play coulored versions of Stax in my oppinion.

Mox Opal
This card probably fits this deck better than any other deck. You need coloured mana badly and with the artifact count in this list you are seldom lacking metalcraft. The legendary rule actually works in favor of the deck (same as Tolarian) since you gladly exchange your own Opal with possible enemy Opals. Your surplus Opal is not a big issue since you can Weld the one in play and play the second one or Bazaar it to the yard.

I will not go through the rest of the choises now, but feel free to ask.

So, what is new? What is the point? Well my point is that this archetype won the 2005 Vintage championchip, it has been given new fuel since then and I think it can positively be reconstructed to fit basically any meta, even today. The core in the deck (traditional Stax-components) is the same, but that is also true with TPS or any other Vintage deck. That is probably why Vintage fits people like me who have a life besides Magic and cannot go to PTQ and GP trials. You may not find my list as new and tasty as you like but what I am saying is: try to beat it!

My question for discussion is this: What is the reason that this type is not showing up in the US or European lists? Is it simply because it is not played by the good players or is the list itself actually not good enough? My experience is that this list will have a fair match-up against anything you can put up in Vintage, played correctly you are probably in favor.

I am sorry if my English is not perfect. I am from Sweden so please be gentle.
Cheers

(Edited the title for proper punctuation)

I have not lost because of Leyline of the Void. Sure, it takes away many synnergies, but I would not say that it wrecks the deck. However, it gets worse if you are on the draw and enemy starts with Leyline and Land + 2 x mox. Eventually you probably must get rid of Leyline, and the only way to do that is Smokestack. But that is true with Inkwell and other permanents as well and emptying enemy permanents to win is nothing new to the Stax mechanism. With a strong opening and a Leyline that slows you down you might be in trouble, but if I am on the play with Chalice@0 I usually do not care about Leyline. The focus shifts more towards Smokestack than Crucible/Welder but

What I loose to are these cards/situations:
1) Predator
2) Hurkyl's Recall
3) Bob
4) Broken starting hands
5) Dredge pre-board

@TheShop
How many Lodestones do you run? I have been running LOdestone as a four-of since he came and always thought of him as an auto include, but now I think differently. Often I find my hands overcosted, I am a turn behind my enemy, regardless of what he is playing. Also I find that the beating is done by Lodestone alone. Nothing else in the deck have the main target of inflicting damage on my enemy. Lodestone becomes a loner with a separate purpose. Also, with Oath being a solid contender in my meta, lone creatures that comes without friends are often not fast enough.
The only REALLY good play I get with Lodestone is T1: Mox, Chalice@0, Workshop, Lodestone. These starts are awsome, but happens more seldom than the starts where I find a hand full of awsome +4cc and not enough solid mana to rely on. The hand must survive enemy Wastelands. A hand described above with T1 Chalice + Lodestone does that but many other hands does not.

@punki
Have you considered Uba again after the return of Gush? If so: what are your choises? What are your thoughts of Jace?

Hi!
I loved UbaStax and I still want to play UbaStax if it is a good deck. I have been following different threads and have myself been playing MonoU-Stax in different forms from 2006 until today.

I have read your list and your comments on the weaknesses it has and have come to the following opinion:

The best cards in the MonoR build (in my opinion) cost 2 or 3 mana. Tangle Wire is my no.1 since it answers most problems that may arise and always gives valuable time. 2Sphere is my no.2, good in multiples and easy to get out T1. Null Rod I am really missing (playing Trike in my resent build). Sure the 4cc cards are great but they are also slower and too many of these will often make too mana demanding hands. Chalice is very sweet too, stops permanents and scary answers.

With these thoughts in mind I have made the following list:
22 Lands
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

38 spells
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Null Rod
4 Smokestack
2 Uba Mask
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Goblin Welder
2 Duplicant

Explanations:
Why Mana Vault instead of Mana Crypt? Answer: Less damage, less anti-synnergy with Chalice and better Welder target. I more often see a board which includes Chalice@0 than Chalice@1. The 3 damage hurts a lot. It has become an opponent win con. With Welder it gets you three mana instead of two. Why any of Mana V /Mana C instead of another land? I think it is helpful in the early game.

Null Rod, Tangle Wire and 2Sphere instead of EBridge, Null Brooch and Serum Powder? Answer: The first three have the following advantages:
1) Less mana cost.
2) More general effects (EBridge is worthless against several decks, Serum Powder you only want to see in your starting hand).
3) Active cards that have immediate impact on the game (EBridge require Bazaar, Serum does nothing).

Why Rishadan Port? Answer: I love Ancient Tomb, but the damage hurts too much and I want to use my BRings. MonoR is not playing spells that inflict damage to the enemy and thus it is likely that we will get more damage than we inflict. Better is Factory, but it is for defense only. It does not help the game plan of the deck which Port does very well. If I want a blocker, I'd run somethings that at least flies (since Trygdon is the largest threat). Port actively helps against basically every deck you will meet. Yes it is nice that Factory is weldable, but I like locks since MonoR, and especially Uba, is the ultimate lock deck. Rishadan Port is an excellent soft lock that fit with the game plan.

Why no Trini? Answer: I have lately been slightly less impressed by Trini because of these plays:
Early game:
Me: Workshop -> Trini (no moxen in hand)
Enemy: Waste

Or Mid Game:
Me: One or Two 2sphere in play, draws Trini

Sure, an uncountered T1-Trini with not facing Wasteland will most likely win you the game but in other cases it is much more random.

What is the benefit of this deck? It does not hurt itself with its locks because of the low mana cost. Only six spells at 4cc and 2 at 6cc makes the spells easy to cast. There is a flow in the deck that makes it wonderful to play. There are hardly no cards you do do not want to see in the frequency they appear. I would love Crucible#4 though, but I can not find the room for it.

I like Serum Powder most of the cards I have cut from your list, but has chosen 2sphere instead since it actually hinders big threats like Trygdon.

With the changes above I think you will get a deck that is better against any of those that you have on your list of weaknesses. I have not cut the obvious good cards (Smokestack, Chalice and Uba) but added more flexibility and consistency. I have also added what this deck needs in a fast meta: time.

The board (totally depending on the meta) looks as follows:
4 REB
4 EBridge
3 Tormod
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Duplicant

The main concern for this deck I think is Oath, Dredge, Bob and Trygdon, which is why I have REB, Dup and EBridge. My meta has more than 20 % Workshop which is why I include artifact hate.

On 5/3-sphere:
5/3 beater for 4 is better in MUD. Why? - Ancient Tomb. To cancel out their 5/3 with my own I must be faster than them which, with 6+ single red mana lands, I am not. 5/3 beater which makes four cards in my deck worse but zero cards in enemy's deck worse is not optimal. But the awesome sphere effect against other decks? Yes, but also a sphere for 4 mana is not optimal. I have tried it, liked it but am now confident that he belongs in another deck with more focus on damage.

Thank you for your reply! What is your suggestion to take out for the Ubas? (-4 Tangle +4 Uba?) I think that Tangle is actually good vs. drains AND it stops Agro a bit. It also cost which is not negligble when you are counting active cards in hand (under the spheres).

I just love when they use Gush since it gives them less permanents (and thus potential mana) so I am actualy not so afraid for Gush under Tangle. I do not think I have ever lost when the opponent starts to use Gush in defence (against Wasteland or Tangle Wire). I also do not think so negatively about the counters going away since it will eventually make Welder more effective when there are good targets in the yard.

I just feel that Uba is very bad at stopping the opponent when they are close to winning mode. Tangle Wire can in these cases save you from loosing and even turn the game to you favour. In my oppinion a good first turn should include a lot of mana + at least one sphere. This will likely encourage the opponent to play out all his moxes in which case Tangle Wire is very strong (and more likely playable since it will cost instead of Uba that cost ). A resolved T1-Sphere, T2-Tangle will give you a strong position which is also the true with T1-Sphere, T2-Uba but this scenario is less likely because of the extra mana (and I just do not think T1-Uba is safe enough in the current meta with all Flash-decks running around).

Yesterday I was at a convention in Sweden and had some success with (second place at the main event and second also at a side event) the following build:

Lock
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Solemn Simulacrum

Utility
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Mana
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Wasteland
4 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Jeser's Cap
2 Powder Keg
4 Granite Shard
2 Duplicant

Meta: A lot of GAT/Flash and some combo, no other workshop-decks (I suspected few WS-decks which explains the lack of artifact-hate in the board).

Comments on the performance of the deck and card choices:
Serum Powder: I tested this for the first time this weekend and found it to be very solid. It almost guarantees you to find an aggressive start with a lot of options. You will almost certainly draw a FoW turn 1 and if you have any more gas on turn 2 (which is rather likely) the game will look very favourable. It also enables running Leyline in the board which I have not been so impressed with in the more classic UbaStax-builds and it helps finding Jester's Cap in important matches.

Gorilla Shaman+spheres vs. Chalice: The focus of the deck is all about getting a hard lock and to eliminate enemy permanents. I wanted to try Gorilla Shaman and extra spheres and how it works with smokestack. The advantage with Shamans is obviously greatest when you are on the draw, since you can act after the opponent has played his moxes. Beside this he is also a blocker which is important in the Ichorid/Flash machup. The backside with Shaman/spheres is the disability to include Chalice for a decisive Chalice@1 which is imo just getting better and better and is also very solid on the draw.

Solemn Simulacrum: Solid blocker and enables red mana for the other seven creatures in the deck. He is very good with Smokestack+Welder since you can run Smokestack@2 for a long period of time. Solemn is very good vs GAT/Fish/Flash/Stax/Workshop/ and very poor vs. combo. The biggest drawback with the build was the manabase which relied somewhat too much on Solemn. This lead to a weak position when boarding against combo since I wanted to keep my Shamans and take out the Solemns. The result was that I was forced to take out also some Shamans which might have cost me at least one game but that is of course difficult to tell.

Tangle Wire: Always better than I usually think before a tournament. The weak matches are Flash and Ichorid but in all other matchups it is very good. Will create welder targets which is easy to forget but a very nice feature indeed.

Crucible of Worlds: Were terrible all day, always boarded them out. I knew there was going to be very few WS-decks in the meta but chose to include three in the main deck just in case and not focus too much on Stax in the board.

3 Wasteland: I think 4 is better but it is not so important as to motivate the inclusion of Crucible. One Wasteland/match is usually good enough since basics are so frequent. With the heavy amount of red in the MD I felt forced to include more red mana so one Wasteland had to go. Serum Powder helps here though since it lets you find a Wasteland in matches where it actually matters.

Barbarian Ring: I am not so impressed with this since the damage might help the opponent to finish the game. In this weekend (with Solemn) it would have been better to run more Mountains instead.

Leyline: Very good with Serum Powder. Won me several games where it delayed the opponent enough to build up a hard lock.

Jester’s Cap: Only got to use it once but it is very solid right now (combo, Flash and the growth of Tyrant decks).

Powder Keg: The idea was to use it vs. Zombies (Ichorid) and Empty the Warrens. Never faced either of them.

Granite Shard: Good vs. Oath, Fish, Ichorid, Flash and Welders. I used it against Fish and Flash and it was great.

Duplicant: Good vs. most of the decks right now. I even board them in against combo sometimes if I suspect they might have Tinker/Colossus in the board. I used it in several games and even though it is not too easy to get out it is still a game breaker when it does hit the board.

Uba Mask: During my testing I found Uba expensive and not the bomb it used to be. I replaced them with Tangle Wires which is cheaper and supports the general game plan of this build. Uba Mask feels more like a luxury card than a good-enough bomb right now.

Bazaar: Without any doubt one of the best cards in Stax even without Uba Mask. It filters dead cards and thereby keeps up the tempo of the game plan (which is the most important function) and it sets up Welder-brokenness and an occasional Crucible-Waste/Strip.

General thoughts/feelings: The serum powder almost guarantees a first turn Sphere or Smokestack with an additional turn 2 bomb. This will in most cases draw a enemy FoW on Turn 1 and if not, the opponent will face a difficult game state on turn 2/3. The deck was very consistent during the days of the convention and I like Leylines as they buys valuable time in, otherwise, very difficult matchups. I lost the final (2-1) in the tournament to a good combo-player but I am not too disappointed since he drew the nuts combined with good artifact hate in the two games he won and my mediocre draws were just insufficient to prevent his development. This will happen some times but it was just a shame that it happened in the final.

I am not completely satisfied with the build and will work on improvements. My ideas so far are these changes in the MD:

-3 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Solemn Simulacrum
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Karn Silver Golem

This will somewhat weaken the Ichorid-matchup pre-board and also the Stax-matchup to some extent, but will strengthen the deck against everything else imo.

I am very thankful for any suggestions/thoughts on Bazaar Stax/Uba Stax and would very much like to start some discussion on what strategy to use against different kinds of meta. Has anyone tested it against MUD/Mono -Shop (which seems to be on the rise, especially in the States)? What is the situation for Stax against different Tyrant decks?

Are there any benefits of running locks instead of creatures right now? I am not an aggro-player and would rather play combo than adding creatures in my WS-deck.

EDIT: Corrected some spelling errors. I apologize for my poor English.

Hi,
I made top4 in the Swedish Vintage Nationals with the following list:

CREATURES (5)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant

   ARTIFACTS (32)
3 Null Rod
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Uba Mask
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

  LAND (23)
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Mountain
1 Rishadan Port
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland

   SIDEBOARD
2 Slice and Dice
1 Duplicant
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Granite Shard
3 Viashino Heretic

Some comments:
Null Rod
This card is STILL really good, I would say. Now, there were only two Flash decks and one Ichorid (as far as I saw) in the tournament, against which Null Rod is really poor. There is still a large amount of Combo that run even Petal as important mana acceleration. Against other WS/Stax (at least four other WS-decks) Null Rod is the best card in the deck I think. They usually have two (with Null Rod worthless) 4/4 that are supposed to deal with your welders/moxes. With Null Rod this means that you will likely win the welder and permanent war. Few Stax Players, at least in Sweden, have realized the greatness of the next card, which works great with and without Null Rod:

Duplicant
Weak against Flash and Ichorid but I saw neither until the semi-final. A house against GAT, Dreadnought, WS/Stax and Fish.

Uba Mask
I felt I had too many 4cc spells under Spheres and Null Rod so I cut the Uba number down to two. Sure, they are good when you draw and can play them, but it feels more important to get down soft locks fast. I want to minimize bad starting hands with a lot of 4cc and no WS. It is easy to get down a 2cc or 3cc spell during the first turn but it is much more difficult with 4cc spells. I feel that a total of six 4cc (4 smokestacks and 2 Uba) is the right number, but maybe they should be a 3/3-split.

Tangle Wire
Were great all day. Best against GAT but also put slight pressure on combo (limits the time window to cast Rebuild to own upkeep which is of course less optimal).

Today I would change 2 of the Granite Shard in the board to Slice and Dice, they are necessary against Flash and Ichorid, yet not optimal.

About the number of Voids in the BR-version:
I would love to run at least 3 Voids if it was possible because of mana. However, in order to maintain the consistency and solid feeling of UbaStax, I realized that it was not suitable to inflict more damage to the mana base without also damaging the basics of the deck. With the restricted amount of black mana I settled with 2 Nether Voids, which are truly amazing when they hit.

The matchup that is worsened by including 2 copies of Nether Void and no Wasteland is of course the Stax match-up. I think, however, that the RB-version might be slightly in favour against other Stax after SB compared to the MonoB version (because of Heretic and Rack&Ruin).

Regarding the lands I think that a BW-version also (in addition to Balance) have the benefit to include Flagstones of Trokair instead of God’s Eye. Together with Nether Void it makes more sense to care for your own mana than for creatures. I would rather run 4 Factory instead of God’s Eye (with the Fish-match up in mind), at least in the Welder-builds (Factory = artifact creature).

Of the other enchantments I think that Desolation shows the most potential, especially with Null Rod. Bottomless pit is also a good option, awesome with Uba or Confidant in play. Desolation shows better synergy with Nether Void, though.

What about Curse of the Cabal? It might be too bad against Drains but it has a nice effect.

Hi,
This is my first post. I am a big fan of UbaStax and have found it to be very flexible. I also like the idea to include the new legendary land, Urborg, because the possibility of including Nether Void. Here is my current list (with explanations below):

3 Mountain
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Rishadan Port
3 Barbarian Ring
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
21 Lands

4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Uba Mask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Welder
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Duplicant
1 Trinisphere
2 Nether Void
5 Moxes
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus

What I want to combine is the stability and consistency of Uba with the possibility of an, almost automatic, win with Nether Void. Here is a comment on the card choices:

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Besides that it makes Nether Void possible it also makes Energy Flux less dangerous.

Mountain (instead of Badlands)
Makes the inclusion of Solemn possible and powerful, which, in turn, enhances the use of Welder -> better overall synergy.

Rishadan Port
Awesome against drain decks, I have won several matches because of Port. Far better than Wasteland IMO. Good synergy with Nether Void.

Crucible
Becomes even more important in this build, especially together with Bazaar, since the mana base is weaker than in monoR-Uba. You need the colored mana, and Bazaar-Crucible helps you to find it.

Tangle Wire
Tangle has, IMO, climbed to one of the most important lock pieces because of Nether Void. It is still a good "bait" to Mana Drains in order to play something more important. It provides a necessary breather against first-turn-Colossus, which is a very common play in my Meta (in Sweden, all players apparently run at least 4 Tinker...). Perhaps this will change in time, though.

Uba Mask
The synergy with Welder and Bazaar is awesome and well known. But together with Nether Void, Tangle and Port, it becomes truly ridiculous. I think Uba Mask is the most aggressive card in the deck, perhaps as a 4-of. A lot of players (in Sweden) have not yet understood this card, which makes the surprise an important factor.

Smokestack
I feel that this card is the most uncertain, but at the same time also the most general. It is good against random decks (RG-beats, weenie decks etc.) and seals the game many times, but can also be equally bad in other games (Stifle, bounce) because of its slow speed.

Duplicant and Solemn
Excellent synergy with Welder and Bazaar. Good against Fish, Beats. Duplicant (or other removal) is also quite necessary in my meta due to the number of Colossuses.

Cards that were not included
Wasteland, seems to have had its time. It is more important to keep your own lands on the table (due to Nether Void) while still limiting your opponents plays. This is why I choose Port instead of Waste.
Factory, really powerful card and should possibly be fitted in the list somehow. I have not yet figured out how, though. The mana base probably already needs some adjustment to be more consistent, which makes the possibility to include Factory even harder.
Demonic, Vampiric, Imp. Seal, neither one feels fast enough or possible to play with the limited amount of black mana in the deck. Due to the heavy amount of locks, tutors usually aren't needed. The obvious use (to find Strip Mine) is less important because the goal is always to get Nether Void out. Nether Void fits well in the game philosophy of the deck, while tutors usually give you a possible power play during your NEXT turn. Often, this simply is not fast enough, I rather play a less powerful lock already THIS turn.

The weakness I felt when trying the Mono-B version was the decreased power (due to lack of Welder and Uba) in my old favourite card: Bazaar. The deck also showed disability to handle early Colossus (no Tangle or Duplicant). I really think that Balance should be in there somewhere, though I do not miss it all that much in this RB-version. I also felt that the inclusion of Confidant limits the choices of locks and utility (like Duplicant, Uba Mask and Sundering Titan), due to the damage it inflicts on yourself. Braids is very interesting but is perhaps impossible to have in any deck that is not MonoB. The MonoB version has lost in consistency but has unfortunately not gained the insane plays with its tutors (lack of Balance and Tinker).

I apologize for my bad English but I hope that most of it was understandable.