I can understand the desire for diversity of decks, and to eleminate degenerate combo.  I could also see the benifit of eliminating the expensive tempo cards.  I would disagree with the swingyness of the topdecked card.  I think part of the thrill of the game is the topdeck.  With a single card in a 100 card deck I think that for every person curses the topdecked jitte, another person will feel great about that jitte that stole the game from the losing board possition.  To eliminate swingy cards, especialy ones that have never been banned before (outside tribal) seems to be questionable and may be a product of a more aggressive metagame than card power.

In order to keep the diversity that seems to be the intent of highlander, and to decrease the power of broken cards, I would ban all of the good, and maybe some of the iffy, tutors.  That includes graveyard tutors like Buried Alive.  I'd get rid of some of the most powerful draw cards too, as well as the acellerators.  I wouldn't eliminate combo cards so longs as they are a dead card in and of themselves, like worldgorger dragon.  Another way of dealing with combo pieces is to keep the oldschool orical corrections on the cards, like basalt monolith/grim monolith was corrected to prevent the mana from being used to untap itself, or the "free" cards like great whale didn't work if they were played from the graveyard.

I think that getting rid of some of the swingy cards takes some of the thrill out of playing with Highlander, whether that card is jitte or Wrath of God.

I think that we know the deck is casual, but based on improving what you want to build without losing its center there are some changes you could make to the deck.

I have a hard time reading all of the colors, but I don't see if your deck has any disruption besides one Tefri and a few blockers.  Also, what turn does the deck goldfish on?  I think you need to improve both, and change your card choices acordingly, with an eye to make the deck faster or more disruptive.  Typical Storm combo decks with low levels of disruption in Legacy kill on turn three (High Tide, IGGY Pop, Solidarity) in Extended they kill on turn 4 (Desire) and Standard turn 4-5 (Dragon or Heartbeat).

If you can't get your deck to be that fast without losing its center, try to take out the weak cards for LD, Counter Magic, or hand destruction.

It seems that the banned list is kind of all over the place.  Basing the banned list on vintage with price considerations might make a little more sense or on prismatic's official banned list.

I think some of the banning could be avoided with metagaming, because they have seemed to ban some of the simpler combos, or limited them.

A few things I see as odd:

Banning Crop rotation without banning Academy
Banning Trinisphere without banning Mishra's Workshop
Banning Mystical Tutor, Vampric Tutor, Imperial Seal, but not banning Demonic tutor
Banning World Gorger Dragon but not Entomb

Dust Bowl, Jitte, and a few other seem odd because they have never been banned before.

There are a couple of things that could straighten out a banned list like this, like a systematic way of looking at the bans and what you want the format to look like.  Already the format looks like a vintage restricted list.  If you fear combo, and you see combo thriving against decks that have been constructed properly to include a decent amount of removal, then I think the sensable thing would be to ban tutors, including buried alive, Entomb, or Gifts Ungiven.  If you're fearing an unfair tempo boost that would make the matches too fast and too random, then ban the tempo cards like lotus, soul ring, and mana crypt.  If you're worried about swingy games because of card advantage then ban Necropotence, Yagmouth's Will, Ancestral Recall and the like.

I think that the benifit of a format like this is the joy of seeing some of the more fair power cards without fearing that they would become degenerate combo pieces.  For example, Wheel of Fortune.  It's a great card, I wouldn't fear it in a highlander Sligh deck though, I'd call it luck and shuffle up again.  I'd only ban it if I saw it in a third turn kill storm combo deck, but I'd like to see a hundred card deck like that before I did ban it.

I think that this format is the best place for people to try out broken cards in an enviroment where they would not be able to achieve their brokenness, like Mind over Matter getting a chance to shine.  I also think that people should play the format with enough time for a metagamed response to disrupt certain cards before, as a last resort, they are put on a banned list.  I don't see how trinisphere can get on a banned list without people first trying to play disenchants.  The likelyhood of a first turn workshop trinisphere opening is so slim it doesn't look like it would warp the enviroment.

If I'm missing something, and someone can show me a consistent 100 card third turn kill combo deck, then be my guest.

A couple of zombie packages that you might consider.

3x Haalkon Stromgald Scourge and 4x Knights of Stromgald. 
They would do what you are trying to do with the Patriarch’s Bidding, that is, add card advantage after mass removal. 

I also found a few zombies that I liked in my zombie/reanimation deck are Twisted Abominations because they’ll boost the Biddings power and smooth your draws.  Also Rotlung Reanimators, especially if you keep in the Withered wretches.  Despite their cost they are surprisingly effective in a legacy enviroment, usually creating a card advantage/stall, and would give you a presence on the board after the wrath. 

Two one-ofs that I have are Undead Gladiator and Soulless One.  I don’t know if Soulless One should be more than a one-of, but he’s usually an 8/8 or so when he comes out. 

Also, I found I needed some life gain, because as much as I loved the graveyard muses, they would often kill me.  I added Jittes and Sword of Light and Shadow.  I'm not a fan of life gain though, but its worked alright.

I've loved Jokulhaups since Ernam & burn'em(?) decks back in the day (an aggro deck that would have a fast start with Ernam Djinn and burn, followed by a Jokulhaups, and I've wanted to build a good new one.

I see three ways of breaking the symmetry of the Joke.  1) Drop a fast fat creature that they'll have a hard time handling, and by the time they stablize I blow everything up and start again.  2) Blow everything up, float a little mana or suspend something and play a fatty. 3) Use enchantments so I recover faster than my opponent.

My problems in making these decks are fast weenie decks, control decks (sometimes), and trying to avoid making my deck into another version of aggro loam.

The joke

4x Jokulhaups
2x Obliterate

The acceleration

4x Orcish lumberjack (They can make for an explosive start)
4x Eladamri's vineyard (I don't know about these, sometimes they're a win condition, sometimes they kill me, and sometimes they help my opponent kill me.)
4x Werebear (these are great for early acceleration, or for a post joke threat)
2x Tinderwall

The threats

4x Blastoderm
1x Iwamori
2x Greater Gargadon
3x Kird Ape

The enchantments

3x Sylvan Library
1x Seismic Assault

Some spot removal

4x Magma Jet

21x Land

4x Wooded foothills
4x Taiga
4x Stomping Grounds
6x Forest
3x Mountain


I want to stick in 1x or more Life from the Loam, but the power of that card just warps the deck until it quickly becomes a version of aggro loam.  I like the vineyards but I don't know; I could add more land destruction and leverage that side of the deck, maybe adding terravores or something.  Are there any cards like Life from the Loam that are enchantments that would let me get land back from the graveyard?

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain!  While we appreciate new users devising innovative deck ideas to contribute to our Casual Forum, the moderation staff does ask that all posters ensure that their posts are free of spelling and typographical errors.  This is especially true with respect to card names, because players unfamiliar with cards from the earlier expansions won't understand what your deck does if they can't find information on the cards in your list by entering them into a search engine.  Please look over the forum rules on this point to help you avoid this problem in the future.  We look forward to your future contributions.

-DA

I've found that sligh relies on a great deal of red mana, especialy with ball lightning, so I wouldn't put in more than 4 colorless mana producers.  I prefer the wastelands, but I supose that's a personal preference the barbarian rings are also pretty good for silver knights and COP red.  I definately wouldn't put in factories, too slow.  Actually you might want to re-examine your desire to put in non-basics at all.  I play with 4x fireblast, and sometimes with price of progress, at least in the sideboard.  Genju of the spires is a pretty good 1 or 2 of that needs mountains, too.

If you want to take advantage of the nonbasic lands, then I sugest you add cursed scrolls, cut the ball lightnings, and add more 1 drop creatures. 

It seems that what you're really looking for is more of a ponza scheme.  I'm not the best with that deck type, but it looks like a one drop creature, a little burn for their turn one blocker, followed up by rishadan port, wasteland, pillage, molten rain, etc. then ended with a finisher like avalanche riders, arc slogger, or rathi dragon.

The most used card against scepter chant in r/g is ancient grudge, it's instant so they'll have to tap out, and the flashback can get around counters.  Try it in the sideboard.  In the long game you could use blinkmouth well if you're playing a slower toolbox version of sneak attack.  Another way around countrol decks if you cut your color requirements to two or one coulor is to play rishadan ports or wastelands to tie up their mana the turn before you go off.

I'm seeing some odd stuff.

Zodiac dragon could have been a contender, but oracle came along.  It's return to hand only triggers when it is put into the graveyard from play.  The same goes for the treefolk, so they might not be such a great target for gamble.  I guess they'd still be fine for sneak attack though.  Genesis seems like a good bet if you don't pull off the quick win.

If you add a genesis, and then you play so utility creatures for enchantment and artifact hate you could have some more flexibility.    To access the toolbox you could play Eldimari's Call or survival of the fittest.

I feel I may be mucking up the quick win of the deck for flexibility.  I suppose you could make a mess of it by cutting back to one sneak attack, adding academy rectors and survival of the fittest and a single greater good.  That would be fun, allow your tool box, and make the deck feel casual in the worst possible way, setting up interactive dynamic games.

The better idea would probably be answering opposing enchantments and artifacts by winning. 

Add Through the Breach rather than your white search cards, that should let you cut white completely, you don't need disenchant, or STP.  They're too responsive in what seems to be a combo deck.  If you really like them you'd be better off switching to green equivalents.  Naturalize, maybe stomphowler or Veridian Shaman or zealot.  If you've got a problem with affinity get some furnace dragons.

I think we need to know about what specific artifacts and enchantments are giving you a hard time.  Pithing needles? Enchantress decks?

Cut the treefolk and the world gorger dragons for Dragon Tyrants.  With one pump and a fling they win the game.  Other good creatures would be symbiotic wurm and crater hellion.

Add seething song, rite of flame, or simian spirit guide.  You've built a combo deck that you want to make into an aggro deck.  Take out the responsive controlling elements and just make the deck faster, or set up some real fun interactive longevity into the deck with Academy Rectors, Survival, Greater good, Squee, Genesis, and a tool box.

Oh, and what’s with the crop rotation?

creatures:  12

2x Serra Avatar
4x Dragon Tyrant
4x Symbiotic Wurm
2x Dragon Mage

spells:  19

1x Wheel of fortune
1x Final Fortune
1x Berserk
4x Fling
4x Gamble
4x Through The Breach
4x Right of Flame
3x Seething Song
1x Regrowth

enchantments:  4

4x Sneak Attack

artifacts:  5

1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox diamond
1x Sol Ring
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mana Vault

lands:  20

1x Diamond Valley
4x Forest
3x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Dwarven Ruins
4x Taiga

Or the Fun version with Survivals.

creatures:  17

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Acadamy Rector
1x Serra Avatar
1x Weatherseed treefolk
1x Genesis
1x Loxodon Heirach
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Duplicant
1x Stomp Howler
1x Squee
1x Rafellos
1x Yosei the Morning Star

spells:  9

1x Balance
4x Gamble
4x Swords to Plowshares

enchantments:  8

1x Greater Good
1x Sneak Attack
2x Sterling Grove
4x Survival of the Fittest

artifacts:  5

1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox diamond
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Grim Monolith

lands:  21

1x Diamond Valley
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Plateau
4x Savannah
4x Taiga

I though about the meta-game question.  I suppose it would just be simmilar to choosing a deck for an undefined format, like extended just after a rotation.  Or in a wide open format like the present extended or standard.  In those cases you'd just pick the most powerful deck that you can and tune your sideboard to be transformitive, or easily adjusted to take on aggro or combo.  Control seems weak in what would be the most open format possible, a format of formats.

Look at the critical turn for each format, the level of possible disruption.  Another way to determine power level would be the invitational auction style.  What is the lowest life and starting hand that you'd take to choose a format, if you could play any deck in that format once you've chosen it?


For example, grading by critical turn and disruption.

Vintage; Critical turn of 1-2, heavey disruption.
Highlander; I don't know, I supose it would be the same as vintage.
Legacy; Critical turn of 3-4 with disruption, 2 without.
Extended; Critical turn of 4 usually
Prismatic? I have no idea how a prismatic deck would goldfish, what the level of disruption in the format is, and I imagine it would lose points to inconncistancy.
Standard; 5
Block Party? I think most of these decks go off on turn 5 or 6.
Skittles; I think the average one's critical turn would be 5-6
I have no idea about peasent.  The last time I looked at it, it seemed pretty broken because of skull clamp.
Tribal is wierd.  Goblins is tribal, are there any other legacy tribal decks that go off on turn 3-4? ELVES!?

How many cards can goblins start with and still beat a standard deck?  If vintage had a handycap of 3 cards and 15 life, is there a deck that could still beat standard at 7 and 20?  What about extended?

If solidarity goes off on turn 3-4 with seven cards and a good player, and I've found it goes off on turn 5 or so at 4 cards, does that mean that 4 or so cards might put legacy on par with standard?

What do you think the relative strength of the various formats are?

This question occurred to me while reading the main MTG site last week and the article about what Magic would be like if there was only one format.  Like most of the week it occurred to me that they took an uncreative doom and gloom approach.  So I wondered if there was a way to handicap the formats against each other.  The first step to such an idea is to find what the handicap of the formats would be.

Much of the list is intuitive, but I’m curious about what you think are the particulars, and if I forgot any format.  I’m just postulating this on average unmetagamed decks.

Vintage
Legacy
Tribal
Highlander
Extended
Prismatic
Peasant
Standard
Skittles
Block Party

Speaking of your meta, what is it in general terms?

I'd recomend using the Jitte over the Mask of memory if you're facing red and packing slayers and such.  How is the Masticore working?  Why no Necropotence?

Uhm...Quicksilver Fountain might have that LDish thing you're looking for.

Mana denial works well with discard.  The problem is that if you don't serously cripple your opponent in the first two turns you will probably lose, or that is what I've found with the Dead-man Ale like decks that your deck resembles.  I would second most of the advice above.  Consider running a second color too.

Cards to add

Braids - prevents a slowed opponent from recovering.
Chrome Mox
Yawgmoth's Will
Necropotence
Withered Wretch - Depends on your casual metagame

It really depends where you want to go with the deck, being mono-black limits it.  You have the Sui-direction with Negators (a great card), Sarcomancy, Carophage, Daluthi Slayer, and Hatered.  You could expand the tutors, the creature kill, and slow down your clock until you've shifted your deck in the direction of MBC with either Pox, Damnation, Mutilates, Haunted Echos, and a viriety of other silver bullets.

I would add another color.

Cards to cut

Tutors - These are better in MBC where you might run more of a toolbox.  As is I don't see enough truely broken restricted cards or silver bullets in your deck to deserve the tutors.  They add a few mana on to what otherwise is a card that is just valued for its mana efficiency rather than its circumstance.  Most of the cards in your deck are MVPs on the first few turns and won't turn the tide after that, having the tutors just slows them down.

Hyppies - It depends what you're up against, but most decks can handle them too easiliy.

Mishra's Factory - These seem like a holdover from a time when this kind of deck had 4x neropotence, 2-3x nevinyrral's disk.  The mishras would stick around after the disk killed the necro and clean up.  You deck has neither, but a desperate need for colored mana in the first turn.

Colors to add
White - This puts your deck as a varient of Deadman Ale or Home brew, or whatever you call that deck.  Go check it out in the Legacy discussions.

What you get:
Girard's Verdict
Swords
Jotun Grunt
Vindicate
Exaulted Angel

Red - I'm toying with a deck like this right now.
You get bolts rather than swords, a second turn Flametungue Kavu, and Jagged Poppet.  I don't know if it is worth it yet.  It seems alright. 
I want to also try Greater Gargadon to mop up and to reduce the risk of using Jagged poppets, sacromancy, and Negators (stack damage and sac). 
You would replace Null Rod with Gorrilla Shaman, and maybe add Simmian Spirit Guide.

What you get:
Lightning Bolt
Jagged Poppet
Terminate (not that good)
Rise/Fall (meh)
Flame tungue Kavu (circumstantial
Simmian Spirit Guide
Gorrilla Shaman

I think its pretty easy to come up with a deck that will go off on the first turn consistantly, especialy if you can use 4x restricted cards.  The harder part is making a deck that will go off on the first turn in singleton.  I haven't gotten a chance to test this with apprentice or think about it too much, so this is very sketchy.  Does anyone else have a singleton deck that can fishbowl a first turn kill?
 
Draw
•   1x Necropotence
•   1x Mind’s Desire
•   1x Wheel of Fortune
•   1x Ancestral Recall
•   1x Time Twister
•   1x Yagmouth’s Bargain
•   1x Yagmouth’s Will?
•   1x Brainstorm
•   1x Fact or Fiction
•   1x Meditation
•   1x Ideas Unbound
•   1x Windfall
•   1x Intuition
        1x Memory Jar?
Random
•   1x Demonic Tutor
•   1x Tinker
•   1x Vampric Tutor?
        1x Emporor's Seal?
•   1x Grim Tutor
Mana
•   1x Land Grant
•   1x Channel
•   1x Elvish Spirit Guide
•   1x Simian Spirit Guide
•   1x Helm of Awakening
•   1x Lotus Petal
•   1x Mox Emerald
•   1x Mox Sapphire
•   1x Mox Jet
•   1x Mox Pearl
•   1x Mox Ruby
•   1x Cloud of Fairies
•   1x Sol Ring
•   1x Mana Vault
•   1x Lotus
•   1x Mana Crypt
•   1x Chromatic Star
•   1x Seething Song
•   1x Dark Ritual
•   1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
•   1x Cabal Ritual
•   1x Mox Diamond
•   1x Chrome Mox
•   1x Vaultic Key
Kill
•   1x Tendrils of agony
•   1x Charbelcher?
•   1x Brain Freeze
Land
o   1x Bayou
o   1x Tropical Island
o   1x Taiga
o   1x Tolarian Academy

The cards with a "?" are the cards that I'm not sure about.  Am I missing any good tools?

I actually want to build the Simmian Surge deck.  Finally a real "Gorilla, Gorilla, Gorilla, Gorilla, Stop that" deck.

This is the untune pile that lept to my mind:

4x Rites of initiation - An auto win if it's in your opening hand.

•   Creatures
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Prospector
4x Goblin Recruiter
4x Goblin War Chief
1x Skirk fire Marshal
4x Seige Gang Comander
1x Goblin Marshal
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Mogg Maniac - a kill that's fetchable if you combo it with the Gem Palm Incinerator.
1x Gem Palm Incinerator
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Matron

•   Spells
4x Brightstone Ritual
4x Fecundity
3x Food Chain
1x Mox Emarald
1x Mox Saphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Lotus Petal
•   Land
4x Teiga
2x Wooded foothills

I don't even know if I got the numbers right, do you want a 60 card deck or a 56 card deck?

I've been mulling over this, because it looks odd and fun, and I've thought of a couple additions, but I don't know how well and fast they can get the deck to hum.

Patriach's Bidding/Living Death - 8 mana turn 3 turns into 11 mana, and it can open up new abuseable teritory.
Dormant Sliver - With the Living Death/Bidding, or one more turn this allows you to draw into your win.
Heart Sliver - Makes better use of Gemhide Sliver.
Dark/Cabal Ritual - Duh.
Mana Fixers - Chromatic Star?

So a Revised List

Slivers -
4x Metalic
4x Mindlash
4x Plated
2x Dormant
4x Gemhide
4x Basal
4x Heart

Combo
4x Living Death/Patriach's bidding
2x Demon Fire

Tutors
1x Vampric (aren't these restricted?)
1x Demonic
2x Diabolic (These could be a 4x if you can put in chrome or diamond moxen)

Mana

4x Dark Ritual
3x Chromatic Star (Iffy?)

Land

Does this work?

30x Surging Flame
30x Simian Spirit Guide


A little bit cheaper than most of the other decks on this list.  It can also go off in response to your oponent if you lose the die role.

     I've been messing about with a non-survival reoccurring nightmare ideas and I found a hard lock if you hit 6 mana and Yosei, the Morning Star.  Like some of the recent dragon/reanimation decks you don't need to put Yosei in the graveyard, just run wrath of god, some Solum Simulacrum, and artifact accelaration to get to 6 mana on turn 4 and control until you get there.  I've just built it as black and white, but it could add blue for counters, gifts ungiven, or fact or fiction, or green for a faster lock through birds, wood elves, survival of the fittest, etc.
     For multiplayer I've found Kokusho/Great Whale combo, or Gravepact work wonders.