Very cool Gush is back.
Experimenting with a few decklists and ideas, so i wont post anything yet

Question: How will GAT deal with land hate such as the typical wasteland + strip mine? it seems the landbase is the most vulnerable -- regardless of what goes "into" your spell slots, you'll all run basically the same crap. However, the lands are almost all nonbasic so what's the game plan -- aside from "just win"

Another question: 1x echoing truth seem like it's enough? or is 2x needed. against ichorid and the others, this deck may need another e.truth to bounce the tokens

Srancour, Im gonna guess what I quoted is what you've started with and below is what it became (via your posts): Now if you'd like to throw in a flame kin as well....you have no room
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor

I myself am running the standard 7 lands + 8 answers (preferably 4 trop. islands + 3 city's / E.charm + COV). I have thought alot about running Unmask in the SB x4.
I run 4x Dryad Arbor in the MD so the real issue is getting  to play Chain of Vapor. Unmask needs no mana (just black card in hand) which is very easy. Unmask also adds to disruption + clears a path for your win condition. Ex; they could potentially have a solid hand and drop a counter on unmask -- leaving things open for you.
*I need to test this alot but the experimental SB would be:
4x Unmask
4x Dual (Tropical Island)
4x Emerald Charm
3x Chain of Vapor

Personally, I like Tropical Islands if your SB runs cards that utilize it. There is no need to "bluff". Chain of Vapor + Emerald Charm can utilize a Trop. Island.
I'll post my list, which has been testing to nice games

About which build to use/run: It's a preferance of style of play along with the metagame. I personally like Ghoul better as of right now.
They are both equal in my mind --- Zealot builds have more slots to play around with but need Bridge from Below to win, where as Ghoul has a tighter decklist yet can win without bridge.

I tried PoliceHQ's list, which was very nice -- but I had to tweak it a bit (probably due to a difference in playing styles)
*Props to PoliceHQ who definately has something going with his list. I felt that some things had to be altered slightly


The Kill
2   Sutured Ghoul   
2   Dragon Breath

Food/Fuel
4   Ichorid 
4   Narcomoeba
4   Golgari Grave-Troll   
4   Shambling Shell   
4   Stinkweed Imp   
4   Street Wraith   

Spells 
4   Cabal Therapy   
3   Dread Return

Stuff 
4   Bridge from Below
4   Leyline of the Void   
4   Chalice of the Void   
1   Lion's Eye Diamond  (A comfortable choice, should Bazaar not being in a decent opening hand. You could easily sub this with a x1 of any of the usual creatures. Debate and playtest who works there and who doesnt.)

4   Serum Powder   
4   Bazaar of Baghdad   
4   Dryad Arbor (Why 4? Well, either you draw them and play them or they rot in the graveyard. And if I need to win fast, that extra 1/1 creature that winds up there occasionally makes the difference)
   
Sideboard
4   Chain of Vapor     (you can debate, but this card has more pro's than con's)
4   Emerald Charm     (anti-enchantment or bazaar again. For 1 G this is a staple)
2   Reverent Silence  (It does the job but is more conditional than I first thought. However, when it resolves it works wonders)
3   Tropical Island      (for actual use, not for bluffing)
2   Wooded Foothills  (gets the dryad arbor/tropicals...depending on the situation)

*At times I sorta miss Nether Shadow, although we have Narcamoeba --- Shadow was a good friend.

Unless You're running Dryad Arbors or something, Wethepeople is right, that's pressuring you not only to draw a Gemstone Mine in your opening hand, but to maintain it in play long enough to use answers to possible threats. Drop Grude for Chain of Vapor #4 and add duals/city of brass/something to make mana (preferably of those spells' colors)

Hapless Researcher (yes, him of all people!) has been testing with good results against Ichorid. I play 4 MD, plus it can be pitched to Force of Will. Reasoning behind this is to efficiently remove the bridge from belows from the game. And on top of that, it's an activated ability requiring no tapping so you could sac a dude in responce to them doing combos or right afte rthen dump a bridge or 2 into the grave.

Leyline hurts but there are ways around it.

As for the rest of the FS decklists,
Just up the Echoing Truths to 2-3, depending on the meta and if anyone has nice cards to disrupt the opponent that are new, feel free to drop a name or two.
Flash is tricky to me (probably because I havent played against it much), does anyone know what efficiently knocks them out?

Policehq, I like the way you setup you MD. Main thing that sticks out is No Golgari Thugs....What do you Sb out?
im not concerned about what's being put in, more of what is being taken out. So if you wanted a Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm, what are you taking out of the MD to make room for it?

-thanks

Anyone think of Riftstone Portal?

You just need to dump it in the grave (very easy)
Could solve the G mana issue for Emerald Charm, etc.

*Other than Gigapede, is there another creature that's relatively big and can't be targeted? I think there's a big U/G creature. Anyone know him? Im thinking of adding 1 or 2 if these guys arent bad

I agree with whats been said, especially extirpate and chalice

Jank, I see what you're talking about...beat me to it on the dazes
If I may add some cards and reasoning:
-Children of Korlis / Hapless Researcher (wow never though of him) / Spiketail Hatchling
.....for their sacrifice ability + simply remove the bridges from the graveyard
-Echoing Truth: zombie tokens from Ichorid's Bridges and Empty the Warrens. This will probably be an essential piece of the puzzle
-Jotun Grunt: for those going white, it's a grave-eating beater and you'll never run out of fuel against ichorid
-Yixlid Jailer: stop their plans if you're splashing black
-Daze: for those who are against/don't like it, there's too many key spells going off earlier and earlier (Flash, Dread Return, etc) that must be shut off
Other Choices:
-Morningtide: more of a SB choice but not too many other options for GY hate that aren't permanents (Crypt, ect.)
-Raze: for those going with red in the deck, this kills mana-less ichorid. your land loss isnt as bad as theirs. not to mention if they retrieve it or lay another, you got Wasteland or Strip Mine. possible SB/MD, depending on builds
-Shadow of Doubt: stops combo..can stop saclands or tutors and at worst, it's a cantrip for U/B x2

*edited

Izzet last time I checked was U/R x 2 which is 2cc to cast (and in a way helps mana base because it can be paid with either U or R)

Thanks for everything else guys...Ill be playtesting a different MD, unfortunately I havent played any tourney's lately because Ive been busy with alot of work 

gotcha, its all good now mox 

@ Moxlotus:

Hey, Im sorry I didnt get to fill out more. Ive been really busy with everything, let me try to explain what I put and why.
There's been a ton of aggro running around im my parts. I havent played too much post-TS type 1 but "full out combo" isnt as common as aggro/creature based decks. Hence, the magma jet -- which I feel is worth a slot.
I use Izzet's ability on occasion and he also backs up spells I need to copy; not to mention at worst he's a 2/2 for 2cc and can be chucked to a Force of Will
when you combine it with the Time Walk, Recall, Tutors, he really isnt that bad. Sure it's mana commitment but it's also a built in ability.
Is it bad that for 5 mana I take 2 turns? or for 4 mana I draw 6 cards? Even If the opponent counters 1 of them, you suddenly have another turn or at least 6 cards.

4x may is probably too many to run (3x more favorable)

Sorry Im not running moxes bc I dont have the rods (cant find any) or T.W and Recall (5-proxies right there)
I keep playing around with Magma Jet and Fire/Ice and as of right now, im feeling a slight edge to Magma Jet. I understand how important F/I is, i wish I had space to play both Magma and F/I

Ive been on and off with brainstorm. I see why you don't like it but mid-late game, it's never a dull draw
It can instantly turn the tempo to your favor and can be played all throughout the game

With Ninja, he can easily be bounced/burned (totally kills tempo because to replace him you either have to pay the 4cc hardcast OR play a creature (summoning sickness) and attack, be unblocked and pay 2 for his ability which I feel is a waste of time

I used to like running him but unless you have your man unblocked early, he isnt that big of a threat. Plus mid-lategame he is useless

just my rationale on things. It doesnt look too good on paper but somehow plays out pretty good

*Stifle is definately needed. The worst you can use it on is a sac land or a bazaar of baghdad, and when you use it on those, it's basically a timewalk

Hello everyone, thought I'd show you all something ive been playing around with
It's got a different approach, somewhat similar yet somewhat different

Creatures 
3   Dark Confidant   
4   Dimir Cutpurse   
3   Gorilla Shaman 
4   Izzet Guildmage   


Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Brainstorm   
3   Daze   
1   Demonic Tutor   
2   Echoing Truth   
4   Force of Will   
4   Magma Jet   
1   Mystical Tutor   
3   Stifle   
1   Time Walk   


Artifacts 
3   Null Rod   


Lands 
3   Flooded Strand   
3   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine   
4   Underground Sea   
4   Volcanic Island   
4   Wasteland   

Izzet Guildmage not only is a nice 2/2, his ability definately comes in handy. I thought it was a so-so card but he really develops into a threat. He's alot better than alot of other options imo.
I don't run Ninja of the Deep Hours because i feel the mana commitment slight tempo-loss isnt worth it. Id much rather have a burn spell
Magma jet is the card of choice for burn. Why? It's got Scry 2 which is so heavily underrated and this combos nicely with Izzet.

I run Mysitcal and Demonic tutor(s) to fetch almost whatever I want
I've thought about playing Fire/Ice...which would replace the Magma Jet only because Ice is occasionally needed over

Im not running Duress...no space available

Sideboard
3   Extirpate (dread return/ghoul/gifts)
4   Leyline of the Void (near-anything nowadays)
4   Chalice of the Void (not too sure if this is overkill)
4   Pithing Needle (always a solid option if facing decks that rely on key compontents, like combo)

I feel it's distinct enough to post. While everyone runs alot of the same cards, I like what Im workin with here. Comments and Suggestions always appreciated
thanks

I sort-of get the logic in what you're saying but wouldn't it be alot easier just to take the mulligan if you dont have bazaar. You basically need Bazaar or Lion's Eye Diamond (Yes I run that) to get that initial self-discard. After that, you're set.
To help your deck's engine, run petrified field to protect bazaar and SB run gemstone mine/city of brass/lands you need for the SB cards.

Thanks for helping me with my questions before guys. Im testing without Unmask

About what creatures to run:
Ancestor's Chosen and Mindslicer and Flame-kin Zealot look to be the most logical secondary "return" creatures
while Satured Ghoul and Cephalid Sage should be the main targets in my opinnion
If youre wondering why Cephalid Sage, it's because she acts as another bazaar and adds consistancy/having a similar game (Bazaar #5,6,7)

Id be great if I could get some serious thoughts and reasoning on:
Bauble vs Unmask (looks 50/50)
Chalice vs Leyline (thinkin leyline)
Nether Shadow vs +1-2 dread / +1-3 Cephalid Sage

thanks

im sorry, i should have been clearer. The type of "bounce" aka removal of a color I feel is needed. Im not saying "use washout" but I love the effect it does. Echoing Truth does a nice job at removing the target and all copies (same name) but i feel there is a need for instant-speed color bouncing as well. The best example I know of is washout --- I was saying before that it's a shame Wizards didnt make a Hibernation (instant 3cc mass green bounce) for other colors or for a "you pick the color".

Sorry if that confused ya...What I was trying to say is that there shouldnt be such a reliance on Echoing truth. Is there another instant-speed removal/bounce?
And aside from tokens, I'm talking about goblins, green critters, and things you can't target (mongooses, etc.)

it's ashame because there's not a cheaper cc card that does this:

Washout (invasion blue sorc.)
3U
Return all permanents of the color of your choice to their owners' hands

Or any "Hibernation" of the color of your choice. If only there was a black/red hibernation --- wouldnt that be somethin?

Washout is way too slow but thats basically what this deck needs 3-4x of
E.truth does the bouncing to an extent (token wise) but misses out on a "mass bounce" Hibernation gives.

E.Truth for now until we get wizards to make a hibernation for black/red
Again, please take the time to ensure that your posts are written at an appropriate level of English proficiency.  -DA
*Edit: I made it betterto read -- sorry if the language wasnt up to par mod's 

*Edited
-I try to like Children of Korilis but its greatly compromising Fish being deemed "Aggro" (aggressive/fast paced) to having the deck be, well, "Fish in a bucket"
-Personally I feel Ichorid and Gifts will be out in big numbers. Ichorid is just terribly fast, especially if they have the bazaars (of baghdad) out turn 1 (and they will mulligan down until they get one)
-Gifts will probably fool around with Pact of Negation but i dont see at as the "end all" to Orim's Chant
You can counter their Pact of Negation . OR you can still play Orim's Chant AND it still has a high probability to resolve. Gifts isnt gaurenteed to run Pact of Negation...last i heard, their Decklist was full to begin with
Not to mention Blue-elemental-blast can shoot down Pact of Negation as well (seemingly valid SB [sideboard] option for control/combo decks anyway)

Swords to Plowshares "swords" < Echoing Truth "E.Truth"
You need spot removal and bounce. Sautured Ghoul (ichorid) and Goblin Welder (deck that has anything to do with artifacts) mush be shut down immediately
Id personally go both spot removal and "bounce" (removal) but there's no way unless....

You make a Dog+Cat (Savannah Lions + Isamaru, "Hound") build with some Silver Bullets (1x of cards that are used in specific situations). It may make the most sense
Mystical Tutor + Merchant Scroll's + the already present Brainstorms for -----------> E.Truth/Swords/Bounce (removal spells) to beat the current threat

Here again, your post requires substantial editing for a reader to understand it without having to guess at the meaning of obtuse abbreviations, irregular formatting, and numerous misspellings.  Please make your posts easier to read going forward.  -DA
*Has since been edited

Uwfish2000, congratulations on the win. I like the games you listed--total massacres.
I have to ask a quick question about your sideboard, though. What matchups/deck scenario are you putting in Azorius Guildmage for, and what's she replacing? I like the 2x but I'm just curious.

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain!  While we appreciate new users contributing to strategy discussions, the site rules require that all posts to the boards be free of netspeak abbreviations and written in a way that makes them easy to read.  Please familiarize yourself with the TMD rules to avoid this problem in the future.  We look forward to your future contributions.  -DA

Has anyone tried Rootwater Theif for Control (Slaver, etc) decks? You could knock out the key components they need.
Same could be true for Gifts, knocking out ETW, Gifts itself (if they run 1 then it really works), Y.Will, etc

Worse come to worse, you can skim through their entire deck and see what they're running

I know its committing mana when you could be droppin guys but i feel that if he gets in early, he could just rip apart control and purhaps combo (1-3 SB?)

----just an idea for you guys

Thanks for explaining this bc it just made me realize why most of u go 3x. And im retarded...sorry if i ticked you off Webster.

In my nievity (totally made that up) I have a question now ---> (im liking the Cat+Dog run of the deck and playtesting it its got a nice aggression to it)
What are the options to running Ninja of the Deep Hours?
what i mean to say is how many and the pro's n con's

I think 2-3 would be good but some prefer stormscape apprentice (i understand this)
and I know Ninja + Meddling = meddling can rename the blocked card

The drawing is another perk but for those not running, what do u play MD in its place?

Thanks everyone --- Warden

My bad, thought Abs. Grace said cant be targeted by Black...anywho,
-3 Abs. Grace
+1 morningtide
+2 seal of cleansing

About the # of Null Rod.
We can all agree 2 or 3 is the right number

Statistics and Actually playing are totally different.
Webster : I know I need to playtest more and play a buncha different opponents with a slew of decks and see what works n what doesnt. Maybe you're right and it should be 3 but im saying if you're basing 3x > 2x rod just off stats (3/60 > 2/60) i wont really take that. Plus you can recall/clamp/ninja/standstill/ w.e sorta draw into it, thus enhancing the % of getting it.

Personally, Im just playing around with many things and I found running 3, as somebody else mentioned, would get another to pop-up midgame when it wasnt needed, wasting my draw.
And Maybe Fish is suboptimal around my area but I enjoy playing certain decks --- Im playing to win and enjoy magic simultaneously and Fish happens to do that. Webster, maybe you're right --- it may be too aggro for me to run fish n maybe ill have to go BirdSh*t or some other variant (idk if thats still part of Fish, a BirdSh*t decklist was listed as part of the 1st post)

Hey guys,
Im new here...but not a stranger to Magic or Fish decks for that matter

I currently run a U/R Fish but wanna convert to U/W.
I Love how efficient the U/W build is --- although B is tempting

My thoughts:
-Mindcensor is way too slow
-stormscape greatly depends on your evironment
-Jotun Grunt x3 = right number to run MD (4th SB obv.)
-skullclamp beats standstill/curiosity and on a jotun, it still nets tempo with or without paying the upkeep
-Morningtide a solid SB card for anti-grave decks (may bump up to 3)

*Going the Aggro-friendly Dog-Cat for now

Warden U/W Fish v1.0
Creatures
2   Isamaru, Hound of Konda   
3   Jotun Grunt   
3   Kataki, War's Wage   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   Ninja of the Deep Hours (sure, debate over him but he's a blue pitch card and can "re-use" meddling)
2   Savannah Lions   

Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Brainstorm   
3   Daze   
4   Force of Will   
2   Misdirection   
3   Stifle   
3   Swords to Plowshares   
1   Time Walk   

Artifacts 
2   Null Rod   (i agree that 2 MD is fine)
2   Skullclamp (why not? tempo with jotun and most other cards)

Lands 
4   Flooded Strand   
2   Island   
2   Plains   
1   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine
4   Tundra   
4   Wasteland   
1   Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard ~ (15 cards) 
1   Jotun Grunt   
1   Kataki, War's Wage   
2   True Believer (they can't target you)
2   Echoing Truth   
2   Morningtide (grave-hate for ichorid n the likes...)
3   Absolute Grace (massacre = no prob)
2   Null Rod (for the approp. matchups, clamps leave and +2 nulls in)
2   Umezawa's Jitte