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1  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: UBW Fish Deck Idea on: May 18, 2007, 05:07:19 pm
I really like the mindsensor also. And run 4x in my B/W deck. I agree that you need to be abal to get him in to play fast though. So I have been thinking about either off color moxen or else maybe a few Ancient Tomb's. I think tomb is nice because it not only helps cast aven fast but also helps with chalice too. Though I think for a deck like this to want tomb you need at least 1 more aven in the deck and maybe null rod too. As turn 1 null rod seems nice.

But if you do not like the tomb idea I really think Lotus Petal maybe worth thinking about. As if you think about it this deck look to want 3 mana only once in the early game. Sacking a petal for mindsensor turn 2 (Or 1 with luck) seems good. So what if the next turn you only have 2 mana nothing else in the deck cost more then 2 mana to play.

Just a few ideas. Hope it helps some.
2  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: New to Vintage, hate moxen, RW Aggro need help I'm not a n00b, I'm a t2 veteran on: May 18, 2007, 04:58:12 pm
Bloodfire Dwarf can be good against ichorid also. As it killes every creature they bring out (save the dread returned target but that is what swords is for). And on top of that it also lets you remove all the bridge from below that they have in the yard. Also with 3x crypts in the main you have some game against the deck anyways. As you can chump block with your creatures a little then pop a crypt. Like I said dread return is your biggest threat I think.

Also not that if i remember my the way the stack work's right then they will not get any creatures from bridge from below if you use the dwarf. As the dwarf will go to the gravyard as part of the cost and there for trigger the bridges remove from game ability before the dwarf does it's damage.

Just an idea worth thinking about if you think ichorid is a problem. As I belive stoping them from ever geting the token in the first place is better then killing then waiting and killing the token then.

I think you can afford to run 1 explosive's though and 1 Enlightened Tutor also (This way if you did not stop the bridges in time you still have a way to deal with the tokens). Tutor is nice as it gives you a little card selection out for the deck.

Though one question I have is you say you are in a proxy enviroment so why not proxy a mox ruby and mox pearl ?

Also if you are facing off against other moxen you really need to have a few Null Rod's or else Chalice of the Void in the deck. This are key cards to a deck like this as they help slow up your oppoent long enough to hopfully win.

And I say Unicorn is far better then spree. As I said before you already have plenty of artifact hate in the shamens, Kataki and Welders. And unicorn is another beater for you too.

Though if you feel you still want artifact hate then I have an idea. I remember at one time when I ran R/W I ran 2-3 Unicorn and 2-3 Hearth Kami in the deck. The hearth kami is nice if you think you will see chalice alot. As chalice for 1 really hurts and this gives you a way to deal with a chalice for 1.

As always a few ideas for you to think about and I hope it helps some.
3  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: New to Vintage, hate moxen, RW Aggro need help I'm not a n00b, I'm a t2 veteran on: May 17, 2007, 10:26:25 pm
Sudden shock is no where as good as Magma jet even with mages and FoW out there (this is like saying moxen are not good in a format with chalice and null rod in it). Sudden shock is good VS. Tog and some of the new hulk flash combo decks. So if you see this all the time then yes shock is the better. But if you do not see them then jet is the far better card. And look at it this way they waste a force on it good. One less counter in there hand. Same is true if they drop a mage naming it. There are just far better things to use those cards on then the jet.

Jet was never in the dekc as a 2 damage spell it was there for the second ability on the card Scry. The one thing about this deck was that it just does not have any card drawing in it. And that is where jet came in. It gave the deck some card drawing in a way.

Also 4 lavamancers is about 1 to many. Please trust me on this I have played R/W weenie in a few tournys now and tested it a lot and 3x mancers are just more then enough. And I to agree grunt and mancer can work wonderful together.

Another thing to thing about is Null Rod. Now this depends on your meta. If there are not moxen in your meta then rod is useless. But if there are moxen being ran you really should think about runing null rod. It is just amazing in a deck like this.

Another thing I noticed was that you say oath is a big problem in your meta. But you have no Kami of the Ancient Law in the deck. This guys can just be game against oath. He beats them in the face and when they finally do get an oath out he killes it before they even get a chance to use it.

Some of the question cards I have are.

Shattering spree (at least in the main)
Piller
Engineered Explosives

What are this in there for?

Spree.  Is good against stax but with welder, shamen and kataki in the main already you have good answers to stax. I have won more then one stax match up runing 4 welders, 3 shamens and 2-3 kataki. Mainly because welder along side your burn lets you play there own game against them.

Piller. I tested this as a SB option against storm based decks (back when tendrils was the only good storm card) and just found I hated it. Most of the time they just tutored up a bounce spell. Then bounced it and killed you all in the same turn. Only taking 4-6 damage from it. But found that it killed me. Remember everything in your deck will cost you 2 life or more to play now.

Explosives. Maybe you could tell me what match up you have this in there for. I mean if it is for the aggro match then I belive it is like spree. You have a good number of hate for aggro already in the deck. But if you did need more red just has better answers then Explosives.

Lastly one of the biggest things I found from my testing was that you really need to put your opponet on a clock. As welders, shamens, and mancers just do not do the job. I kept finding over and over that I really need about 12-14 two power or guys (note i am counting the factorys with this). Because if the game goes to long your oppoent will just recover and win.

Hope this helps some.
4  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: U/R fish type deck want to know what you think about it on: May 17, 2007, 09:58:57 pm
Fanatic only kills one creature where as the dwarf kills all the token your opponent gets from Empty the Warrens (and while not the only reason it is there one of the biggest). There are just loads of better one drops in U/R then fanatic. Dwarf is played for the very fact that it does 1 damage to everything. And it also can have good game against U/W fish also. As you can not only block then sack to kill any 2 drop they throw at you (save the grunt of course) but you can also sometimes 2 for 1 them if they have lions out also.

As for the Mancer VS Sage. Mancer is good yes but I feel like this deck is all about geting a really good turn 2 or 3 play out. Weather that be a ninja starting to draw you cards or else a Magus screwing over there mana base. And the sage helps make sure you will have that good turn 2 or 3 play. Also it gives you 2 more blue cards to feed to FOW.

Though it should be noted that the sage idea came to me after I had a few other ideas for making changes to the deck. Most notably I cut all the brainstorms. I know you all are proably calling me crazy right about now. But I think that what I replaced them with gives me better game. I will talk more on what I added after I test the deck out some tommorow night.
5  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: U/R fish type deck want to know what you think about it on: May 13, 2007, 06:17:37 pm
The reason why he doesn't use black lotus is because he thinks its a bad card, no matter how many times we have told him it's a great card.

lol. I do not think it is a bad card.  I just did not like it in mountains because I found that having 3 of one color for one time is not as good as having 1 of a color that sticks around. I did test it ALOT and every time I just found I did not like it. Remember I did not run to many color mana sources in the deck. As I had both waste/strip and factorys in the deck. And the mana base was only 22 or 23 I belive.

But as for this deck having only 20 mana sources I was afraid that I needed mana sources that stick around (I really feel 20 mana is a bit low even for fish). But I like kodefan's ideas. And adding 2 more mana sources going to 22 mana sources I feel that lotus can fit in the deck now.

This was why I said that I may add lotus in the deck later. Because I knew I wanted it but I did not want to when all I had was 20 mana sources.

Thanks for the help so far I will edit the origanal post to show what the deck will look like after your suggestion. As I said I will proably not get a chance to really test the deck out tell friday. But after that I will post what I have found out so far.

Again thanks for all the feedback so far and please keep it coming.
6  Eternal Formats / Creative / U/R fish type deck want to know what you think about it on: May 12, 2007, 11:51:20 am
This deck was made with tendril/Empty the warrens combo and aggro (mainly U/W fish) as the main meta game in mind. It's game plan is to disrupt there early game and beat them in the face with creatures. I really want to make a U/R fish deck and think it can be good. At least in my meta and was hoping that you all could give me some help with the deck. I will admit I have not tested the deck out yet. Because I just came up with the list but I hope to get it ready to test out this friday. Well now that I have all that out of the way here is the deck list.

Creatures (16)
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Mox Monkey
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Bloodfire Dwarf
2x Grim Lavamancer/Sage of Epityr (I kind of like the idea of the sage and it gives me more force food)

Spells (22)
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Fire/Ice
3x Stifle/REB (not sure witch one I like best yet)
2x Echoing Truth
1x Time Walk
1x Ansectral Recall

Mana (22)
4x Volcanic Island
6x Blue Fetch Land
3x Wasteland
3x Island
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Stripmine
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire

I think that things like the chalice,null rod, Magus and Back to Basic give the game a good bit of diruption. As against combo this can almost stop them from being abal to have the mana they need to go off.

Though I have to wonder if maybe 20x mana sources if not 1 or 2 to few.

Speaking of the mana base. I know it looks kind of odd. But the magus and Back to Basic make it so that I have to have a good bit of basic lands in the deck. I also like that this means you can make those wasteland's of your oppoents dead cards too. And yes I KNOW that I do not have Black Lotus in the deck. This was not a mistake I have my reasons for not wanting to play it right now. Though maybe I will add it in later.

So what do you all think about the list. Thanks for any help you can give.
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