That's the problem, though.  They're not removed from the game.  The name is misleading.  They're in a different zone than your library, hand, graveyard, and in play - but "the game" still knows where they are and they're still a part of the game.  Several cards have been printed that interact with (flicker cards, wishes) or are intended to perform their function from that zone (suspend).  If you're a new player "Removed from Game Zone" is pretty counter-intuitive as they're not...removed from the game.

If this is exactly how the turn went down, I think you're better off waiting to Relic in response to Dread Return - as it'll clear his board of 3 creatures and also the graveyard.  I know it's probably minor in this case, but just wanted to point it out.

You mean Regal Force?

Ok, I'll draw for turn, play Strip Mine and strip one of your Utopias


Me:
Cards: 6
Board: Utopia, Utopia

Strip Mine's ability on the stack

No problem EOT; My turn - I'll draw, play Utopia #2 and pass back

Life - 20
Cards - 6

Board - 2 Utopias

Still nothing, just Utopia, pass.

20 life, 6 cards in hand.

No leylines - if you have any or if you're cavern'ing go for it.  I'm just going to lay a Utopia and pass.

Hey if you're still interested, I'll play.  I don't care who goes first.

Steve, when you call my points silly it really undermines the discussion.  I don't appreciate it, and don't believe it's necessary.

How about another principle, also from Aaron Forsythe "Consider the list of cards banned in Vintage to now include ante cards, dexterity cards, and subgame cards. Simple."

Actually, I don't think you're part of the 'we' that bans cards.

People were creating decklists and ideas for decklists on how to use Sharazad in a somewhat competitive way, this was directed at them.  It was my attempt to disban their strawmans.


Well, it seems that "The DCI or OP, or whoever" did believe it was absolutely necessary to ban it and there are two camps of people.  One group believes that them not wanting it is enough, and the other doesn't.

The simple fact that they banned Shahrazad instead of restricting it should clue people in that it wasn't a power issue.  No one's claiming this card is broken-good.  No one's whining that they can't win a tournament with their insanely awesome Shahrazad deck.  Wizards doesn't ban really good cards in type 1, they restrict or errata them.  Since Shahrazad is banned it seems like powers that be do not want subgames to be a part of magic.  This isn't a complex issue.  If you don't want subgames to be a part of magic, then you ban the card and remove it from sanctioned magic.

What makes an unintelligent person piloting a non-tier 1 deck the lowest common denominator?

You're assuming that player B is (1) piloting a tier 1 deck and (2) intelligent.  If player B brings his homebrew Channel-Fireball deck, he or she has no out other than to play the sub-game.  And that's even if they think things through all the way.

Just a heads up, there's probably several better Oath lists out there - but if you're dead-set on your list you might want to upgrade Reckless Charge into Dragon's Breath (and I suppose Dragon's Fangs if you want to give it trample, but I think shadow is better).

Creatures are only put in the graveyard when State-Based Effects are checked.  So, after the welding, the game will run through all of the State-Based Effects and see Master of Etherium as a 3/3 with 2 damage on it. 

For the same reason that you can Tendrils of Agony yourself when you're at 2 life, Master of Etherium will live. 

There's a bunch of people in Philly who play a variety of formats (all of the formats, actually, including Legacy and Vintage).  If you're actually in Philly at least 4-5 stores I can think of - but then again, if you're not that dedicated it's not gonna happen

Constructed doesn't really create more money for stores than drafts do unless the constructed entry fee is very high.  Drafts being $15 a pop and having very cheap (re: boosters that were purchased in bulk) as prizes makes drafts very cost effective for any hobby shop.  Anyone can play, and you don't need to even bring a deck.

Drafting is great because for the price of a constructed entry fee you get your own 3 packs worth of cards and can randomly mise more if you do well.  It's much easier to draft 20 times that it is to drop $300 + entry fee to play in a type 1 event.

I love Life from the Loam and try to play it as much as possible, but it's really just not necessary.  By the time you can recur things you're really just in a better position to attack with Tarmogoyf and kill your opponent.  Believe me I had LftL + Raven's Crime in this style of deck for awhile.

Also on the fetchland count - remember that you can just play them and sac them to Smallpox (or discard to Smallpox) but I'll admit it's not perfect.

Mesmeric Fiend is way better than Bitterblossom against Tez, Storm decks (TPS or Ad Naus), Oath, R/G decks with low burn, Fish...it's really just a good card.  Of course, feel free to sb Bitterblossom for the Fish & R/G decks.


It doesn't get anything the others won't.  That doesn't mean you don't play it.  You consult for Wasteland, Duress, Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, anything you need.  It's not like you have to combo out when you draw it.

This is the list I've been played with Smallpox, you don't even need man-lands - it's a great answer to Colossus (obviously).  Play with it a bit and you'll see the types of plays you can make.  Lots of people assume you can't play Smallpox unless you have random 1/1's to sacrifice or some amount of man-lands, but really you just make different types of plays that are still great.  Think of it as a Sinkhole that can't be stopped.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Smallpox
4 Null Rod
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard has Pernicious Deed, and the rest depends on what you think you're going to see (I like Gouger a lot against Fish and R/G beats)

Bitterblossom is a good card because it gives you options.  You can play defensively against RG Beats or Fish and chump their largest guy each turn, or you can crank out dudes and alpha strike.  The card is better than carnophage because you're not locked in to one game mode.

Any ideas on how to upgrade this deck to non-budget (and if it would be competitive)?

You only beatdown when they stop your combo.  It's not like you have a hand with Glimpse and say "F it, I'll just attack."  Whatever your best option is, you go with it.  The simple fact is that decks that have answers to your stuff often take time to refuel.  If they don't have Force when you go off, obviously you win.  If they do have Force/Removal/etc, then you still give them a very small window before your attack phases kill them.  You're not completely spent because they kiled your Skullclamp or countered your Glimpse.

I think you want your answers to chalice to be creatures (since you can pact for them) - g. herald/viridian zealot and viridian shaman are probably enough.

Why play Sink Hole when you can play Smallpox (much better against Fetchlands)?

I also echo the thoughts on adding Tarmogoyf.  It's not really a budget deck if it runs Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom anyway.

I just can't see Life from the Loam in a decklist without expecting Raven's Crime anymore - have you tried it at all?  It'll help the combo matchup a bit, that's for sure.

Just FYI - I'm fairly certain that the editor makes up the article title names - at least, I know he does for the other articles on that site.

It's not clear from your post whether or not you're aware of this interaction, but if you draw and play Vexing Shusher, Chalice of the Void shouldn't be a problem.

I know you have Null Rods, but did you consider Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives/Powder Keg at all?  blowing up moxes every turn is pretty good, not to mention if you have ruins, you could tutor for Tormod's Crypt and lock them out of Yawgmoth's Will.  You'd probably have to retool the deck quite a bit to make this kind of change (obviously remove the Null Rods), however.

Did you test Raven's Crime at all?  It's pretty good at knocking the combo decks out of the game after you slow them down.  Mid-game just use Life from the Loam to make them discard 3x a turn.  Same idea vs. control.

Since both Memory Jar and Necropotence have delayed triggers that trigger "At End of Turn" their controller can stack them however he or she wants because they trigger at the exact same time.

You can stack it so memory jar's "at end of turn" resolves first and you discard your current hand, get back your old pre-jar hand, and THEN get all the necro'd cards.

OR

You could get all your necro cards, THEN discard them to Jar, and get back your pre-jar hand (there's not too many scenarios when this will be advantageous).

Necro
Skip your draw step.
Whenever you discard a card, remove that card in your graveyard from the game.
Pay 1 life: Remove the top card of your library from the game face down. Put that card into your hand at the end of your turn.

Jar
T, Sacrifice Memory Jar: Each player removes his or her hand from the game face down and draws seven cards. At end of turn, each player discards his or her hand and returns to his or her hand each card he or she removed from the game this way.

Simian Spirit Guide is a mana ability, and doesn't use the stack.  He doesn't have to pass priority to you to wait for the R to go into his mana pool.  He can put LED on the stack, pass priority to you, then after LED resolves, he can RFG the Guide, then play Wheel without passing priority.  OR he can do it in the order you suggest.  Either way, you never have an opportunity to blow up his Lion's Eye Diamond until he's already used it in response to his own Wheel.  The order of the LED/Spirit guide isn't relevant here (or normally).

Actually, you check SBE's before you choose targets for Sharuum, so with 2x Sharuum's you could go infinite (along with bridge from below).

Dread Return targeting the 1st one, ability is on the stack - target Sharuum #2.  Sharuum #2's ability waits to go on the stack as soon as you have priority, and you'll check for State-Based Effects (the legend rule) before then.  By the time you choose targets for #2's ability, they're both in the graveyard.

Repeat.

This + maralen is pretty nice