Your plan against blue is triple Extirpate? What are you targeting, and what are you siding out? I'm afraid I'm a little lost on that one.

Outrageous. Fantastic.

I also wonder about the possibility of running Thoughtseize in this deck. I've seen many Oath pilots have success with the card in the past, but personally I have a very hard time evaluating when it's a good strategy and when it is not. Given that you could come up with a configuration that would keep you in a safe place in terms of a blue count for Force of Will, under what circumstances would you play the card? Where in particular does it shine and where is it found lacking?

I have a couple questions mostly for Ben, but also for anyone who feels qualified to answer:

1. Why is there exactly 1x Sensei's Top in this deck? If the card is good in this deck, why not play more? If it's ok but not great, why not play Preordain? My gut tells me that there are two possible options. Option a: Ben wanted to play more tops, but the blue count was really starting to get toward his minimum threshold for FOW, so the rest of the tops are replaced by Preordains. Option b: he wanted to slightly increase the permanent count for the shop match-up, so a top emerged. Or maybe it's none of these, and it just slipped through for some reason. Regardless, 1 seems like the strangest number to include given that this deck does not play Bob.

2. Is Beast Within useful as a singleton utility card in this deck? Two examples would be that it can deal with Dark Confidant and other problem creatures and that it can also mess up an opposing Shop player trying to ramp a Smokestack to blow away your Oath.

3. Why Sol Ring and not Mana Crypt? Once the deck gets online, it will take a minimal number of turns to finish it off. Has the damage proven to regardless be a problem?

I'm Sean from round 2. Just to remind you, I was playing Gush storm. I recall coming kind of close to not losing game 1, although it was pretty rough. Game 2 my hand was pretty good, except you went Workshop, Trinisphere and I didn't have a force.

You guys should probably take a look at the results from a recent tournament in Badalona. Gush decks destroyed the meta in this rather large event:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1383

The spelling here is actually Klomparens, not Klompowens

Generally, a fish creature that costs 3 better pretty much win you the game or do a good job of ensuring that you won't lose the game. I liked Aven Mindcensor while Flash was at its height, but that's as far as I took it. I feel like it is probably going to be just too slow and not powerful enough. Jotun Grunt seems strictly better.

I agree. I don't think he's a guy that you want to churn out A.S.A.P. I play him as the deck's late-game gas, and a way to help negate topdecks that might be or search up bombtastic cards like Will.

Alright then, go ahead and test it. But please bring us back some detailed reports and results 

I feel like the  build is better right now because, mostly, of the interactions it has with Standstill. It starts off every game with a good beater or tempo dude (I'm using Cursecatchers instead of Javelineers). It then drops an amazing 2-drop the next turn, either Null Rod or Standstill (and if Standstill is still on the table when you want to plop down a Ninja, there's no trouble). In either case, the tempo, gained by the first turn creature and also the Mishra's Factories, becomes really important. I really like that the  mana base is able to support a full set of Strips and Wastes in addition to a full set of Factories. A build that splashes black simply is not going to be able to support the Factories.

Regarding Duress vs. Daze: You're right in that Duress is really, really good. However, Daze is still powerful. It acts as yet another tempo card, slowing your opponent down enough to let you win the game. By itself, it's awfully weak. However, 3-4 Daze in addition to Null Rod, Wastelands, Strips, Stifles, Cursecatchers, and whatever else, becomes strong. Also, Duress is simply abysmal when your opponent is in top-deck mode. Daze still has potential in that scenario, if only as a pitch card for Force of Will.

Nice to have you back, Haunted 

The problem, as I see it, is that this guy just doesn't have the power to help out your win in addition to drawing you cards. I really hate playing one-power guys in this deck as it is; meanwhile, Ninja will do the job that needs to be done: if he gets through, he will draw you a card. He also does double the damage of Sygg. Meanwhile, the merfolk doing his combat damage is not guaranteeing anything, and also the fact that he has a measly 1 power makes him even worse. I'm really having a hard time justifying a one-power creature in this deck that costs 2 mana.

Also, spots in this deck are extremely tight as it is. You proposed 2 cards to be cut, of which one I don't agree with very much in the first place (You'd really cut a Meddling Mage?). Add to the problem this idea: the ideal fish deck is based on consistency. You want to play essentially the same hand every game. So how can you say that this is your goal when you want to run a 2-of? It just doesn't fit with the basic fish principles. So, you could get closer to the core ideas of fish by cutting more things, but what? Is it really worth it?

Well, the champs are over. The top 8:

1. Long
2. Slaver
3. Slaver
4. Long
5. Oath
6. Dredge
7. Painter
8. DT

More info can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/usnat08/vintage2

Before I say "Where were you scrubs?  " to you all, I'd like to give props to Moxlotus for a very strong showing with a  fish build, barely missing the outrageously stacked top 8 by losing in the final round of swiss. So, those things said, let's discuss. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found the overall field breakdown of the day, but we can at least take a look at how we want to beat the decks that were successful. Have at it!

A few notes of mine:

Null Rod is still amazing.
Spell Snare just got even better against Drain decks (Strategic Planning is gonna see a bunch of play now).
With Long out as a very strong force in the meta, Cursecatcher is getting better (provided you didn't think he was good already).

How was Trickbind for you? Were you using it as an uncounterable Stifle vs. Long? Would it have been better, just as good, or worse if it were a regular Stifle instead?

How relevant did the Waterfront Bouncers turn out to be? Also, did you really need the off-color Mox to be a permanent mana source, or could you cut it for a Lotus Petal?

Standstill is not bad; it just doesn't belong in  fish. It sees play in  because the deck starts the game with a turn 1 beater and is able to play Mishra's Factories. But, in a deck like this, it's just probably not going to be very good since this deck not only plays a slower game, but also plays Dark Confidant.

Also, the singleton Old Man of the Sea seems really random. You don't have any way to tutor it up. You might get lucky and draw into it, but even then, would it really be that good? Why not just play another Swords to Plowshares? It gets rid of many, many more targets. The price of not stealing the creature for yourself seems like an acceptable cost.

Something I really have to take issue with the cutting of Null Rod. I honestly think that the Rod is one of the things that makes Fish viable right now. It's a beating against Control Slaver, Painter, and Long. It's got game against Stax. It is relevant in just about every single match-up except the mirror and Ichorid.

Where is Meddling Mage? Did you decide he's not good enough? If so, why?

My point was, are you going to be able to tap out without taking burn? Would you bet the game on it?

While he could be relevant as a finisher, I think Phyrexian Negator would just be better. Tapping out (or mostly out) is not only something you probably don't really want to do (stifle, e.g.), but also is something that probably won't come up that often anyway. You don't really play any high-casting cards, and you aren't usually running 3 or 4 spells out there a turn. The "draw, attack, go" turns happen often enough, and you don't want to end up forcing mana burn on yourself.

If your meta entails a significant amount of Stax, I would get away from Glowrider. Trying to lock Stax out with a sphere effect just seems like a poor course of action. What you can do, on the other hand, is run more solid answers and threats. If I were you, I would relegate the Glowriders to the side (at best; I don't much care for this guy in general. He's really slow for a sphere effect, and his power and toughness leave much to be desired) and add in some sort of relevant metagame creature. For you specifically, depending on the amount of Stax you really expect, maybe jam some Katakis into the main, or perhaps just go for Ninja of the Deep Hours (I say "maybe ninja" because you'll have a tough time drawing cards with him in a Stax-saturated meta). Also, I would cut the Echoing Truths in favor of Swords to Plowshares, which is better in almost every match-up.

I have to concede that when the creature count gets up towards 18 or so, you don't need your guys to all be powerhouses. So sure, the Curse can be good for you. The problem I think I have is that without the 2 Mishra's Factories, there are only 15 creatures in the deck, which I feel like is getting a little too low to play the 1/1s. So sure, go for it, but if I were you, I'd be very wary of my mana base.

Academy Ruins seems like a very slow way to try to force through a spell. It's also mana-intensive, and is yet another colorless-producing land. I really think that it's just too slow and doesn't do enough (especially considering that Null Rod is the only thing you'll really want to recur).

Also, I would add in the 4th Null Rod in the "+1 ?" slot, but that's because I expect a ton of Control Slaver in my meta.



Fob, I really do think that metagame considerations are important, since this is a metagame deck. Your meta doesn't seem to have a strong focus on CS, and as such you are able to relegate the 4th Rod to the sideboard. On the other hand, my meta practically revolves around it, and so I don't feel like I have any choice but to put the 4th Rod main.

Your comments were really all I needed to see, and so I thank you. I wanted to know if you were only running the 3 rods in a CS-centric metagame, because that seems like an important deck building point.

I do have one further question for you, though: What exactly are you killing with your Icatian Javelineers? Your meta doesn't seem to focus on CS, so I suppose that the answer might be that you want them in for Fish and for Stax's Goblin Welders. Have they been worth it for you? Please be detailed! ^^

It's certainly a good start for a list, at the very least. A couple things I'd like to ask/mention:

Cursecatcher-- He's kind of cool, but the problem with him is that he's an on-board trick. There are no surprises here; the only thing he does is beats for one and gets you a small tempo advantage. That doesn't sound so bad, except that this deck really wants to get into the late game, which just so happens to be a time when you really, really don't want to draw this guy. You already have a bunch of disruption in Force, Daze, and Duress. I don't think this guy brings enough to the table to warrant inclusion. Perhaps go with something that is a stronger clock, which this deck desperately needs. This guy's power is really, really bad. Replacement options include, in no particular order, Sarcomancy, Nimble Mongoose, and Phyrexian Negator.

Mishra's Factory-- The inclusion of this is iffy. Firstly, it skews your mana base in a direction you don't want it to go. You'll see more mana screw with these in your deck, and that's all there is to it. The idea of pairing it with Life from the Loam is nice, but it doesn't work terribly well. It's incredibly mana-intensive for a deck like this, and also just slow and clunky. Furthermore, you won't even get this going very often because you're only playing 2 Factories. I like that this is a land with power and toughness, but at the same time, I just don't know if this is really going to help your deck in the long run.

The Late Game-- Your deck wants to make it to the late game, clearly. Your first few turns will almost surely involve a turn 1 disruption spell, a turn 2 two-drop (confidant, goyf, null rod), and then using turn 3 to advance whatever plan you got going during turns 1 and 2. The fundamental problem that I keep running into when I build fish decks that involve black is the following: I invariably run Dark Confidant, and also enjoy running things like Duress, Thoughtseize, et cetera. This would be fine, except that the deck you're playing against will probably be better in top-decking mode than you. They can draw cards that say "win the game," while you can draw cards like Duress, which are of minimal value at that stage of the game. The problem has always been finishing off the opponent quickly enough. Decks like this need a clock, and they need it to be fairly quick. Your opponent can always draw out of a situation if you give them long enough. Your job is to build a deck that can disrupt the early game, and apply enough pressure that they don't just get to sit there and draw out of it. It's for this reason that I don't really like Cursecatcher in this deck. He's cool in the early game, but you have a bunch of things to do in then anyway. He's bad in the late game, where your deck wants to go.

I hope I've been helpful, and if you've got more things you want to talk about, please respond. I've played a {G} fish deck for the past several months, so I'd like to think that I know my way around the general archetype.

Jeffthefob,
I like your list and find it interesting, but it really seems extremely relevant for us all to know what you expected to see in your metagame, what you actually saw, and just a few comments on that. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated!

The ability for thins thing to become 4/4 is by no means irrelevant; in reality, it's the only real case for this card. The fact that it is more relevant as a late-game topdeck than Isamaru or Savannah Lions is what makes it playable. There are 2 major problems with it, though:

1) Tempo loss. The deck wins with a "soft lock" and a quick clock. It has its very foundations laid upon tempo. It could only be a 1 life difference (sometimes relevant), but if it's your only one-drop and then you have other things to do on turns 2, 3, and even 4 that are more important than getting that extra 1 damage in there, it could easily be game-breaking.

2) Anti-synergy. Beware of its major, major anti-synergy with Ninja of the Deep Hours. For this reason alone, I would venture to say that you should not play this guy as a 4-of. The 1-drops are extremely important in terms of getting Ninja out and in there, and the last thing you want to do, as this is a tempo deck, is waste time and mana.

I could see it becoming a 2- or 3-of, but I couldn't imagine it as a 4-of for the two above reasons.

edit: the term "soft lock" was a poor choice of words. All I really meant to say was that you want to win quickly while screwing your opponent as much as possible. The use of the term "lock" was poor, and I advise you all to stay away from it. You don't win with a lock of any kind; you just win with quick beats and tempo advantage.

Trygon Predator is outrageously good in a deck like this. Especially if you decide to play Jitte, he's just nuts. Also, I really believe that the thing that makes fish decks work right now is the addition of Null Rod.

I'm not sure how well the Drake / Bouncer combo works for you, but I know that for me it was always win-more. I would focus on using some simple creature-kill-- whatever works for you. You might also decide that you just want to play more Thoughtseizes.

For those of you reading who don't know:

Guttural response: {R/G}
Instant
Counter target blue instant spell.

It seems interesting... Kind of a green Pyroblast. I don't know if it'll see much play, though. I think that Spell Snare would be a better metagame choice. It still gets Oath and Flash, it's blue. You may be on the right track, though. Feel free to test it out and let us know what you come up with!

Alright, Boogie Man, I think I can help. I spent months and months working on a build in much the same way that you are working now, and this was my most current iteration. I had Jittes in the main for a long time, but recently moved them to the side in light of the fact that they simply aren't fast enough. I tried to run Mishra's Factories for a while, but testing just proved to me that they were better off as more blue sources. Jitte makes any of your creatures into win conditions, this is true. However, this also means that you don't need to have as many creatures as  needs. I really was able to scrape by with 11 well enough. To be perfectly honest, playing a  build is actually rather limiting in terms of creature choice. Green seems to be short on good metagame guys, so the choice I took was to take control of the board and then win with 1 creature, which was largely successful.  beats can do a good job of messing with this plan, so it obviously isn't perfect, but the deck was designed to play a game plan where it started by just trying not to lose, and then attacked with guys after the game was pretty much won.

Another thing that you have to keep in mind on this note: Life from the Loam is awfully slow. I'd sideboard it, if you want it in your 75 at all. It just doesn't seem pertinent enough in today's metagame to warrant maindeck inclusion. It's not going to do the job against Stax, it's way too slow against Flash, and you'll be lucky if you get it to work for you in time to beat Storm variants or Oath. Generally it's the first Wasteland that really throws off their rhythm, not the 3rd or 4th. The recursion is very mana-intensive and seems to me to be very much a win-more strategy. There have been rare occasions wherein it was a win, but that can be said about many cards. It's also usually a miserable late-game topdeck.

Personally, I never felt comfortable with Dimir Cutpurse. That said, I also didn't like Shadowmage Infiltrator, for the same reasons: They're slow, and they don't have evasion in the match-up that they need it: Stax. The fact that Trygon Predator has flying makes him amazing.

Recently, I narrowly missed top 8 at a 40-ish man event with this build:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
2 Duress
1 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Oxidize
1 Trygon Predator
2 Umezawa's Jitte

(For the record, the maindeck Trygons unfortunately turned out to be a poor metagame choice. I'd never play this deck without them at least in the side, but it wasn't the right day to bring them to the main.)

The problem that I ran into with this deck is that it doesn't really have the ability to straight-up put the game away. Tarmogoyf beats are good, but the aren't always good enough. No, I'm sorry, 1 more 2-power dude and a Mishra's Factory are not going to push your deck to where it needs to be.

So, I wanted to mix things up a bit. Fortunately, a teammate of mine suggested that I play a deck that included a 12/12, and this got me thinking about a lot of things. To be perfectly honest, the deck for me started out as a TK DeezNoughts build without the Trinket engine. Having affectionately called the deck 'Naughtsless 'Naughts, the transition was not a rough one. Trygons are in the side, and I now have a 12/12 to win me some games. Here's my working list:

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
4 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Mox

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
2 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The list is still very much under construction, but I like it so far. It's entirely possible that Trinket Mage is the best card in this deck-- controlling when you draw a Dreadnought is very comfortable, and playing 5 Tormod's Crypts just seems so good. Also, Sensei's top can be nuts. The nuts and bolts of the deck remain largely unchanged, except that it now also has a 12/12 to win games.

I wouldn't pay a ton of attention to my sideboard; it's still very much on the drawing board.

I hope I've provided you with some useful insights    I spent a lot of time working on the same deck that you're trying to develop now, and it's a lot of fun to play. I hope you enjoy yourself in whatever you decide to do with it.

-Duressed

It's an interesting list, but I have a couple questions:

The singleton Engineered Explosives and Mishra's Factory seem pretty random. What's your logic here?

Infiltrator is a tough call... If you have very few creatures to worry about, I would certainly go with Dimir Cutpurse over these. In any case, you're going to have a pretty slow dude here. That being the case, I think I would go with Cutpurse simply because he's much better against all the combo, and your goal against them is to make it to the long game. If you get down the Cutpurse, the game looks much better for you. The thing you need to remember is that neither of these creatures have evasion against Stax.

What's your metagame like? What does your sideboard look like?

I did some testing last night, specifically against Tyrant Oath. I found that a general fish-y plan is enough to disrupt them severely. By that I mean just using all kinds of Wastelands, Strip Mines, Stifles, Duresses, etc just messes with their plan so much. There have been numerous debates on Oath whether or not there were enough islands to run a reasonable gush-bond engine. With the huge mana denial strategy that we bring to the table, their chances of getting screwed are even greater.

Just a little tidbit I thought you guys might like to know.

Re: Meddling Mage--
You're right, this guy is good. The problem with him lies in the metagame. Say you're playing against GAT, dropping him on turn 2. Seems like a good play, but what do you name? Gush, right? Well, it just so happens that GAT runs some infinite answers to MM. Fire/Ice and Echoing Truth are common. Doesn't seem so bad, except that they also play Vamp, Demonic, Mystical, Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder. If you say "Well, I can just keep him on the board with backup," I can say the same thing about just not letting them resolve the bomb spells. The difference between a fish deck running  and one running  is that the  build also has access to better attackers (not to mention decks like GAT opting for the Tarmo plan themselves), better mana denial (Life from the Loam is insane with your 4 or 5 wastelands, and Trygon Predator can hit that all-important mox), and, in my opinion, a better game against oath. You have all the same solutions that white would have, except you also get to run Krosan Grip, if you feel it's necessary.
Moreover, what do you do with Meddling Mage against Stax? Smokestack? Tangle wire? Metalworker? Sword of Fire and Ice? Against the most popular deck archetype in the format, Mage is a shot in the dark. The deck runs no card draw. They don't rely on just a couple key spells (like Gushes or Yawgmoth's Will). They just lock you out in whatever way the deck presents them with.

Re: Massacre--
1) Does not scare Trygon Predators or Tarmogoyfs
2) Costs mana against the non-white builds. If they want to pay 4 mana to kill your Dark Confidants, let them. You'll win anyway.

Re: Swords--
It's easily replaced by a number of cards that are still very strong. Diabolic Edict is my favorite, but you also have access to all sorts of interesting options that you may need for metagaming properly. Slaughter Pact is a good one, and Sudden Death can be too.

Re: Your scenario about Tundra bluffing--
I don't actually see how this is going to be very relevant. A deck like  fish needs to get the dudes down quickly, or get those Duresses out there immediately. You can leave an untapped Tundra for Stifle or Brainstorm funsies, but to be perfectly honest, either your opponent is playing around Stifle and you're wasting your turns, or you'll get that Stifle in there regardless. And, in any case, eventually the jig will be up. The question I have for you is: are you gaining tempo by pretending to be Bomberman? Fish is a tempo deck, and you absolutely can't afford to give them extra turns.

I hope I wasn't rude or anything. Let's keep this conversation flowing 
-Duressed