As Shay's opponent in the debockle which is referred to as round 2 in the Midnight tourney,  I am still astonished by the actions of the judge.  We had called the judge over to ask him a proceedural question in the "what if..." form.   Then he did some fact gathering and after leaving to  consult a rules book, another judge or something???, he came back declaring our warnings.  When Rich and I approached him, appealing to the head judge, he informed us that he was trying to "teach us a lesson" rather than give a game loss or the like.  To answer the question as to what lesson: He told us we need to pay more attention in the game.  I would have accepted, nay welcomed, a caution to do so, but I felt the Warning was too far.   Especially because that ruling was for "Failure to agree on the reality of the game state".  Rich in no way EVER disagreed with any claims made or implied by the question of wether or not I had made a land drop.  

And, by the way, getting ready to Gush to find an answer for the Force of Will on stack, I would have ended up in a great disadvantage if we had held to the "no more lands for the rest of the game" ruling  

I have always been told by judges that Type I events are of the easiest to run.  They say that we know the rules better than the other formats.  For The Atog Lord and Frimble to be playing and have a question about the proceedures in the game, that says to me this probably doesn't come up too often.  But then to take punitive action declaring disagreement when there wasn't any is down right wrong, in my eyes.

All judging aside, I completely enjoyed meeting some great players like The Atog Lord and Matrix...  It was all worth it for the good games with them - no matter how tainted the one game was...

Travis

@ Bulls: I like this as an alternative.  I had said a long time ago that a complete re-vamping was needed to be able to fit in Force of Wills.  This is a neat Idea to look at.  This hits the 18 blue card count needed to have the same stats of having a FoW on first turn as  Trinistax has of dropping a 1st-turn 3sphere.  But, I suppose the next question is.... does it still have the 80% by 2nd turn kill???

I still favor the 2-lands over one.  A lot of times I want to fetch for a blue source.  I prefer consistancy over luck of being able to draw into a mana converter.

Being reminded of things we have seen or done helps make them even more a part of continued good play.  Thanks for the extra assistance in bringing up the level of play in Type I.  

As we learn, we become better players.  If Kevin can learn something through months of experience and we can read about it, then we gain those months in minutes.  Thanks for the investment of your time.

Using/abusing the rules of the game is a way of gaining the advantage over an opponent.

@theorgamist: In the first three turns, Green is easy to produce. where Blue and Black are much lesser.   Red is relatively difficult to find.  If a UB spellis to be played it would have to realistically wait 'til 3rd turn, by then it often times will be a little late.  However, I do like where you are going with your thoughts.

I think that Green has plenty of hate/protection available to make this deck work.

MaxxMatt has got the idea of adding extra lands and artifact hate.  3Sphere still hurts but the rest of the Workshop.dec threats are managable through Belcher's speed.


I am getting a bit concerned over Mindslaver decks.  I would be very disappointed having to Belch myself if they can get the slaver activated by turn 2 - very possible.

On the Force of Will thoughts...

Does adding blue cards to get a total of 18 still sound like a good idea for the deck?  To me it seems like alot.

Anybody else find a way to do it and get it to work?

I do hold the belief that in a truely powered tournament (with lots of workshops especially), Belcher is a Top8/Top 4 deck - not a Top 1. It saddens me at this point, with current build, I don't see a way to alter the deck to be able to consistantly be able to use Force of Will.  

We need to have AT LEAST the same chance of having a FoW and a Blue card in hand in the first 7 cards as the workshop deck has at casting a first turn 3sphere.  I think I remember 25% was what Lucentspirit came up with on the 3sphere.  How many blue cards do we need to have in it, so that we have a goal to get to?

Try reading this site about testing for fakes:
http://www.apathyhouse.com/mtg/fake/index.php

I found it rather informative.

@Maxmat:  I don't have to play against that many Workshop decks.  I live in Indianapolis, so I play in Chicago IL, Columbus OH (Smennen, Chain5 and that group), some in Indiana (there are a couple of guys with Workshop playsets), and hopefully soon in Champaigne IL when Smash and Dr. Sylvan run their next tourney.  I would estimate that, on average, I go up against a 25% field of Worksop decks.  And typically, they win if they go first.  I have decided to take the statistical approach of being ok with loosing to those decks.  This is also why I have stated that this a not a tournement-winning deck, but it is definately a Top 8 / Top 4 deck.

The opponents I build decks to play against are NO SLOUCHES - some of the best in the world IMO.

If 25% of what I would come up against goes first (50%), they have a 25% chance of laying out a 1st-turn hoser.  Theses are good odds for me.  

Even if 50% of your field were to have a 50% chance when they would go first (50%), that still is only 12.5% that would be an auto-loss.  Even to this extreme, that's not terrible odds.  Though I cannot imagine you play where half of the participants use play-sets of Workshops and 3Spheres - the only possiblity of that would be in ALL proxy events such as what Smennen runs in Columbus.

When I was deciding what cards to put in my maindeck, I was simply wanting to win turn 1-2 in the most consistant way.    My second goal was to be able to increase the threat density to be more consistantly stong against blue control.  Then I used the board to increase the blue control match up and then to overall consistancy (to utiltize the Living Wishes).  I have about 5 slots in the board for anti-artifact, but all are reactive, so 3sphere still is very bad news, if it hit the table turn 1.  But I figure, what's the odds?  

I am sure that most of you have read the article "Who's the Beatdown?".  If not, you need to.

The Belcher deck is ALWAYS the beatdown in every matchup I can think of.  I cannot see how slowing the deck to have a small chance of dealing with a low percentage of a 1st-turn 3sphere or Null Rod is at all a good idea.  Read: I think Force of Will is a bad idea in the deck as it stands.  That is not to say that in a much more blue version, perhaps running a few Mana Severance, wouldn't work.  A Controllish combo-type deck maybe?

I, however, will not be spending any of my time to look into this option.


@ Pocketmoxen:  Yup, it's real speedy.  I hadn't even thought of using the Lumberjack.  Unfortunately, the way I see it, first it would be a bit slow, and it would get rid of your permanent sources of mana which in this case are not renuable forests.  Red isn't the color we need more of unles you are running Burning Wish, 4 Welders, and several other Red cards.  Green also is already there (forests) and not needed in mass.  The permanent mana sources are needed to go off when you cast the Belcher for 4 then want to activate next turn.  I think there are much better slots in the board than the Lumberjack.  

But this kind of adding to the discussion is very beneficial IMO, as we certainly may be missing some good cards in the 10,000+ that exist.  For example, I never thought I'd would say, "Hey, that Mana Cylix is great!"

Heck, I would appreciate nobody else playing Belcher so I can come to a tourney with no one expecting it and slip quietly into the Top 8.  As I have always thought about combo decks: they're a nice break from a real deck. (I see Smennen rolling over at that statement)

Back to the benefits of Belcher over Dragon - I can't believe I am even entertaining this - WGD is a 2-3 card combo that dies to a single Stifle.
Belcher is a one-card-combo.  Belcher is kind of an easier way to do a "Tendrils kill".  It also happens to run enough black accelleration and search to be a Tendrils deck. Thus, better than WGD.

I can't help but to think that by trying to add Force of Wil (thus more blue) we are slowing the deck down by a turn.  If this ends up true, then we might as well be playin WGD combo :shock:

As they say about driving... Speed kills.  and that is what Belcher has over other combo decks as it stands...

I don't want to quash development at all.  It just seems counterintuitive to try to slow a deck to add unreliable protection.  Maybe a separation of the deck into a more controling version?

Yes it does.  A Belcher Kill is sooo much neater thatn Twister.dec's.

This deck is a Top 8 Deck, not what I'd call a winning deck.  50/50 against Prison is fine by me when I go 100/0 gainst an ever-increasing field of Aggro decks.  I started working of this deck as a new way of being competitive.  Lucentspirit and I cut the Duresses when we noticed that they were slowing down the win.


The deck ran out of room to fit in FoW's.  and to fit them in, we go back to the drawing-board for more lue to do it.  More blue means less black or less red or fewer artifacts or less green.

Red gives Welders and Wheel
Black gives fast mana and search
the artifacts are there to make up for only having 2 land (a rather unstable mana base  :lol:  ) and the ability to convert the colors into useable ones.
Green gives acceleration and mana to use.

I am having trouble getting rid of any of these to fit in cards that won't be consistantly usable (read: no other blue card in hand).  Perhaps a completely different build of belcher is needed.  Maybe we need to approach the deck with a Mostly Blue base.  Is there any way we can cut the majority of Black out of te deck with blue as the replacement??  Is there a way to cut the majority of the Green with blue replacements??

My main deck is identical to Lucentspirit's, as we have built it together:  2 Cylix and 2 Welder's.  We have slightly different sideboards, though.  He runs Gemstone Mine,where I have City of Brass.  He has Duress, currently where I have Negators - thanks to Dulmen.

The Cylixes make for stability and later targets to weld or tinker.

Lucentspirit says that Gemstone is fine as he won't need it more than three times cause he's gonna win by then.  I say that if I am Wishing for a land, then I could be in this one for the long haul and may need it for more turns (against control).  Why limit your options when you don't have to?

_____________________________ ___
I have attempted to build the most consistantly 1st/2nd-turn killing combo deck I could.  The original deck I built with 2-land Belcher killed on the second turn.  The newest build kills on the second turn.  I think all I have done is make it more consistant to do so.  I also want to be able to win on the fourth or fifth turn depending on disruption against me.  I like decks that can win - it doesn't matter to me if that win comes now or next turn or the turn after that.  

There are 2 ways this deck will win, as I see it.  Either it'll win BEFORE the opponent can deal with it (get out the hate), or it'll win AFTER the opponent gets out the hate.  The AFTER route is a lot more difficult, and this the only reason I see as a need for the Living Wishes.  This is why I don't like them - 'cause they are planning for your inability to kill them quicker than they can get out the Null Rod (for ex.)  However, if the Wishes are not there, then you have no chance of winning the AFTER route.  I see them as a necassary evil.

_____________________________ ___
As for the Force of Will thing, there is not nearly enough blue to warrent their use and they slow down the deck's opperations as they will dilute the rest of the deck  both by being there instead of 4 others and with the addition of the "extra", "lesser" blue cards.  I say, to improve the first turn, roll higher numbers  

@ Dozer: I use neither Consultation nor Spoils.  

Spoils of the Vault - I just don't like the idea that a small percentage of the time it is a suicide card.  One black to unknowingly kill yourself.  This is a deck designed to play the statistical odds.  I don't like any card that lowers those odds.   Sure, it will work wonders also. Which is why the replacement for it must also be strong, but without the potential drawback.  May I suggest Mystical tutor?  It gets Tinker for the win. It gets Ancestral/Wheel/Twister for the card drawing. It gets Dark Rit for the extra mana.  With the Chromatic Spheres in the dek theMystical Tutor's drawback is lessened.

Demonic Consultation - I removed this for the 2nd Welder main deck.  I have fewer quams with Consultation than Spoils.  I still have not found room for it again.

True, I have had this problem on occasion, too.  What would you rather have the Chrome Mox to be in that hand to let you keep it? (Other than a dual land, that is.)  I haven't been able to come up with anything.  I was going to drop the C Mox for a 3rd Brainstorm, but that still won't help this opening hand.

You guys are sounding like Lucentspirit.  He yells at me whenever I say I want to take out Channel.  I have yet to do so.

What are your thoughts on the Chrome Mox?

I see nothing I don't like about this build. I think at this point there are going to be some slight variences to our individual builds due to play-syle and local metagames.

I would expect the Burning Wish to be cumbersome/slow, and I hadn't even considered it.

You have:
4 Duress
1 Burning Wish
2 extra Brainstorm

where I have:
2 Mana Cylix (love the extra converters and Welder/Tinker targets)
2 Cabal Ritual (makes casting Necro easier to cast)
1 Mystical Tutor (Go get Tinker, and makes Chromatic Spheres even better)
1 Channel (not neccasary, but fun)
1 Chrome Mox (I've been trying to get this one out for a while)
I could see the Channel and the Chrome Mox turning into Brain Storms very easily.

Why do you have 2 Tormod's Crypts in the board?

Replying to Jhaggs issues:

#1 (MD lands) I have run 2 since I first started playing the deck.  I often bring in a 3rd (Taiga) when going up against blue control.  I do this to be able to have enough mana avalable to cast multiple threats on the same turn.  Since we run so many "must-counters", I figure if I can cast multiple per turn within the first 3 turns then I will eventually get one through and ride it to the win.  Often I will lead with the Belcher...followed by a draw 7...then end up killing using the Welder -- as he can typically  be cast the same turn as a Wheel or Twister.

#2 (Wishes) I have not yet found a replacement for the Living Wishes as I rather enjoy being able to grab a Welder or an extra land from the board.  I used to have 4 Brainstorms, but at the time I also didn't have Mana Cylix to help on the mana conversion, so a green card was more consistant.  I like the idea that if a null rod or damping Matrix hit the table that I am not dead.  I don't like decks that "just die" to a single card resolving.  Against the Damping Matrix the Uktabi Orangutan would come in real handy.  Wen I don't encounter any hate, they do get in my way when trying to win, but they allow "utility" as a way of dealing with the suprises.

#3 (Welders) They are not leaving my build, at least.  They make every artifact in the deck a Belcher (after the first is counterd of course).  Also, an early one can really screw with the workshop decks  

# 4 (disruption) When I removed the 4 MD Duresses (at Lucentspirit's suggestion), I still was winning on turn 2.  Even against control.  By replacing them with other"must-counter" / potential-kill cards, the new ones acted the same way.  The only thing they don't stop are the opposing first turn Null Rods, etc.  So with the Wishes, we can now handle those opposing nasties.

#5 (Vineyards)  They simply give the opponent the extra mana to cast their hate too quickly.  I discovered this in 2 seperate occasions.  First, while I was playing against Nether Void.  If I were to drop a Vineyard turn 1, he was A LOT more likely to cast turn 1 Nether Void (very painful).  Second, when Lucentspirit and I were playing the Belcher mirror (very short games), I found myself brainstorming and putting the vineyards back, not wanting to give him the mana first.  I was still going off turn 2.  So we very quickly replaced them with Tinder Walls and put in 2 Welder's and the Wheel to be able to use the Red.  Now that we run Mana Cylix, colors are rarely a problem.

#6 (Slaver) No comment.  I don't have any experience on it yet.

#7 (Brainstorms) I don't take personal issue with 2-4 Brainstorms as they are a great card and there are quite a few reshufflers. I only run 2 now because I can only have 60 cards. I would like to hear other's testing results.  I really don't think more than 2 on needed, though.

My philosophy on building a combo deck is to go for consistancy.  I would prefer to have a deck that "always" goes off turn 2, than a deck that sometimes goes off on turn 1 but has trouble the other 50%.   (These were just representative figures).

I don't know that "hate with a passion" is quite the way I'd have put it about the Living Wishes, but I haven't found a better replacement (death wish is too hard to cast).

Right now my SB looks like the one Lucentspirit postedbut instead of the duresses I have negators.  I imagine they would do well against control.

I had taken a B/G version of the deck that was posted during the temporary forums by JPMeyer (Ruinn created) and added blue to it going to 2 lands.  Michael took my list and put in the tendrils and living wishes. So, maindeck Tendrils would be Michael from Cincinnati (Lucentspirit).  He then took it to the Columbus tourney Feb. 7th and was in first place after the Swiss rounds.  

He and I have done a lot of playtesting and building via phone and internet.  Since neither Cinci nor Indianapolis have many quality type 1 players for live testing, we must rely on statistical analysis.  But it is a combo deck so statistics is about all it needs

Travis

Excellent point, Razor.  That is, it would be if we would ever go to a mid-game.  The consistant average turn that this deck kills on is turn 2.  This simply cuts down the opposing defenses with a statistical disadvantage.  They must have one of few cards in their opening hands to be able to deal with Belcher.

I do agree with your statement of one land being very unstable.  That's why I play 2 lands .   And side boarded against control-types, I go to 3 often-times.

O the White issue: Green has quite a lot of destruction against Belcher hate including: Oxidize, Naturalize, Viridian Zealot, Uktabi Orangutan, Scavenger Folker, etc.
So does red...

I would expect that the Parfait version would have similar downfalls that regular Parfait does... it is really slow. Stable, perhaps, but way too slow.  Time given to Hulk, Mask, 2-land Belcher, Dragon, Draw-7, MUD, etc. means death nearly every time.

Ok, Ok.   But at least I only spent about 6 minutes  :lol:

And Smmenen, thanks for your most current build.  I have already printed it off using Kevin's uber-cool proxy program.  Thanks again to him.

Goldfishing is one thing.  Detailed tournament reports are what helps us to relive the experiences of others.  If someone can play all day and take good notes (shouldn't be too hard to do with only 2-3 turns to keep track of), and we can read about it in 15 minutes, then that is very worthwhile information.  The way each person plays a deck will yield different results.  

The solitaire stats on these super-powerful decks are pretty close to each other.  Many times we are trying to  choose between a great deck and a great deck.  Variables come into play when we start making decisions based on personal play-style, metagame expectations, deciding when to play what cards, etc.  I just need to find a method by which I enjoy defeating an opponent.  Getting in control of a game is usually the easy part.  Killing them in a fitting way is the enjoyable part.  For example, I play with Werebears in one of my decks not just cause its a good card, but its fun to watch my opponent's face as the little druid becomes the beatstick that kills him.  The act of shuffling and drawing over and over may be stimulating to some while others like flipping over their entire library to deal that much damage.

The interacton with another player, even if only 2 turns, must be fun.  What is the most enjoyable part of playing Twister?  Same question for Death Long players...

@ Smmenen - Lucentspirit and I came up with his build of Belcher.  I have yet to see a faster build than ours.  His results at your Columbus Tournament three weeks ago were pretty good, I thought.

How does Draw 7.dec do against Blue based control decks?

I played in a small all-proxy tournament today.  There were 9 players.  It was certainly NOT a strong metagame.
The decks finished in this order:
1 4-color Belcher (me) identical to Lucentspirit's, as we built it together)
1 Mono-Blue control
1 Forgotten Ancient gro
1 Rock
1 Spoils Belcher
1 Rectal Agony
1 Brain Freeze combo
1 Black/Red beats and burn
1 other?

I played 10 games total in the five rounds of swiss.

My record for the day was 8-1-1
7 wins killing on turn two
1 win on 5th turn against BR burn (I had plenty of time to play slowly)
1 loss to mono-blue (I necro-ed for 1 too many; my play mistake)
1 unfinished game against mono-blue (he laid a turn 2 Null Rod)

Overall, I would say it was a success.  I had no trouble against anything without null rod on turn 1 or 2.  There were no Workshops in the room except the one in my side board so neither Trinispere nor Damping Matrix were present.  I also found that having my Welder get stolen by Control Magic made things very difficult on me, too.

I do find it interesting that as most of the games are hitting their 6th turn I am reporting a 2-0 win.  This gave me plenty of time to trade.

What excites me about the deck is that it is a "one card" combo.  I write it like that because it sure helps to get the Land Grant, too.  That's why Tendrils decks work so well.  In the case of Belcher decks, we only have to resolve a Belcher or a Welder.  Getting one spell resolved is a lot easier than two.

Martyr: This is MUCH different from the Budget Forum.  I am not knocking the budget decks/players, but there is a whole forum for your post.  Unless, of course, your build can goldfish at 80% turn 2 kill.  Or you can extrapolate some help to the powered version from your budget version. -- And Stax is only a problem IF they go first AND they drop a first-turn Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance.

I am looking for a way to make the deck work under adverse conditions.  I know its weaknesses, let's try to solve them.

After testing, Lucentspirit and I believe that Mana Cylix is way better than the Barbed Sextant.  It helps solidify the mana base and it ends up usable with the Welder and with Tinker even after use.

Stifle, Root Maze, Chalice, Duress/Therapy are annoying but not at all devastating.  A turn is bought, but then what?  

And Damping Matrix is worse than Null Rod - shuts off the Welders:(

Crow:  Lucentspirit only went up against only 2 control-type decks the whole day.  I beat him playing Supergro.  And CHAIN5 beat him playing Stax.  Belcher walks all over anything resembling aggro. And has a fairly nice matchup against other combo decks.  Post sideboarding, it'll have a fair match with control.

I have yet to decide if the sideboard version of the deck should be the maindeck, but I need quality players to test it against to determine this.

Looking at the make-up of any given tournement: about 42% aggro, 42% control, 16% combo.  I figure that statistically speaking Belcher has a good chance of getting to the top 8 - top 4.  If it has good match-ups with 58% of the field.  And the control (blue or stax) player must have a turn 1-2 key spell.  Odds are good.

Belchers only threats (in order of painfulness):
Trinisphere
Null Rod
Damping Matrix
Force of Will
Sphere of Resistence
Nether Void (can't see this hitting the table fast enough to matter.)
lots of counter spells.
Energy Flux
Opposing Welder

These MUST hit on the first turn (maybe on second will still help).  Other than this, not much can stop it.  Speak up if I missed any.  Odds are good for the Belcher to do its thing.