@theorigamist:

1



Excuse me, but the only blue cards in your deck are tutor / draw and other FOWs.  Unless you don't count brainstorm as draw.

2

Lim-Dul's Vault has only compounded mana problems for me, but it is very powerful.  

3

I agree that vineyard won't really help against workshop decks.  I'm not sure how many extra lands you could fit / would want to fit on the SB to put in against Workshop.  The only issue with more lands is that they can lock you before you kill them.  Ancient Tomb works pretty well as another land to board in, because it can pay for Draw 7s, Belchers + activation.

4

Is 34 mana sources enough?  I find that 37-39 is the right number.  Also, you don't have living wish.  I find that wish is very powerful, and that mana sources are at a premium.

@Clown

Welder is one of the most important cards in belcher.

Welder does the following useful things:

Recurs belcher
Recurs Jar
Recurs mana sources (monolith, crypt, vault, etc.) for more mana
Welds out opposing null rods, trinispheres, etc.
Gets around COTV by returning stuff countered by Chalice.

I agree that welder is not great against workshop decks, but against any deck with FOW you need ways to recur welders.  FOW is more common than workshop.  The tempo lost when living wishing for welder is large - 1GR is 3 times as much as R.  Granted, the red mana is the hardest to obtain, but against workshop decks especially you need to drop lots of mana sources and use an early welder to disrupt the workshop deck.  On another note, what would you replace them [welders] with that would be better against workshop decks (without radically changing the deck by adding FOW).

Lots of cards that have *  by them in your list are already played in lots of decks.  For example:

Cloud of Faeries
Horn of Greed
Fireblast
Smother
Primitive Justice
Circular Logic
Annul
Curiosity
Flying men
Spiketail Hatchling
Voidmage prodigy
psionic blast
Aquamoeba
Wonder
Ophidian
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Reanimate
Exhume
Ornithopter

@AngryPheldagrif



Really?  Null Rod stops your combo.  FoW, Daze, Spiketails and Stifle slow you down.  They play Null Rod.  Uh oh.  Unless you are winning on turn 1 or they don't know how to resolve Null Rod, I don't understand how you are winning against fish.  Standstill also hurts.

The same applies to other decks with Null Rod.

@MrZuccinniHead

1

The "zuran orb deck" is actually based on Crucible of Worlds.

2

Crucible's cards are WAY more synergistic than Salvager's - there are multiple 2 card combos within the deck.

You can recur wastelands and fetchlands with crucible, draw cards off lands with horn of greed and trade routes (discard land and then play it); Exploration and Fastbond let you do this multiple times.  And so on... the point is that lands are always good on their own because they provide mana.  

3

Crucible combo has proven itself to some extend (1 tournament win so far).  Call it whatever you like, but so far Crucible has proven to be better than Salvagers.  

4



Crucible recurs for free.

@goober

I agree that green > white.  If you look at tournament statistics, green is played more often than white.  Berserk, Channel, Survival of the Fittest, Wild Mongrel, Sylvan Library, Living Wish, Naturalize, Oath of Druids, and Regrowth are a few more good green cards.

@TrixR4Kidz

There are more good (tournament quality) green cards than white ones.

Mono-green decks (Oshawa Stompy, others) are more viable than mono-white ones.  Although White Weenie did win a Dulmen once...

Look at the following top decks that use green:

WTF fish
Tog (both variants)
Landstill (for sb Oath)
Belcher
Draw 7
The Man Show
GAT
Madness
Oshawa Stompy
Crucible Combo
V. Mask
FCG
Dragon


Those that use white:

4cC
some Landstill variants
Salvagers combo
Man Show
Suicide Black*
Other obscure decks

Go figure.

*Actually, some splash green

@ Purple Hat

Trinisphere doesn't stop charbelcher from activating.  It is useless if the Workshop player goes second (or simply doesnt play Trinisphere on the first turn).  Although Trinisphere stops you from playing most of your mana sources (save ESG), I find that you often can just try again.  That said, the real reason for moving to one land is Null Rod.  

@ BroganT2

Welder is the 2nd best non-restricted card in belcher.  Living Wish is also great.  You would wish for welder or Workshop or Ancient Tomb or Scavenger Folk (null rod go bye bye) or even a fetchland or gemstone mine.  Xantid Swarm is another wish target but it really doesn't belong in the maindeck.

Tinder wall is a great mana source, producing RR for welder, among other things.  It is NOT a wish target.

Artifact destruction is necessary for null rod, Oxidize is the card you want, but only one or two.  The maindeck is too tight to fit in oxidize(s).

Chalice of the void isn't bad unless it is combined with other threats AND played on turn one AND if your opponent wins the die roll.  Except for chalice on 3 or 4 (that won't happen).

Your sideboard is way off.  As I have mentioned earlier, the maindeck is very tight, so about 12 wish targets and 3 artifact destruction cards(maybe more if you can cut wish targets) should be the general makeup of the SB.

Tendrils was used as an additional kill card, but it is not very useful.  Darksteel Colossus is almost always dead except for Tinker, so it doesn't merit a spot in the deck.

Mystical tutor to fetch Tinker (or draw 7) is great in the maindeck.  Time Walk is useless - you only have 2 (should be 1) land(s).  

Just say "No" to Seething Song (should be tinder wall) and Pentad Prism (Should be replaced with Cabal Rituals & Living Wish).  Mind Twist also does not belong.  

Xantid Swarm is a wish target and clogs up the maindeck.  Replace with 3 Welders.  The last slot is free, and can be LED, Cabal Ritual, or some other mana source.

Balance is not very helpful.  It doesn't help you play charbelcher and win.  It could go in the sideboard.

That's all, folks.

I think that a Slaver (either type) vs. Belcher would be good.  Or any matchup with Belcher really - long games make the article too long and you get long games with control on control.  Also, testing against Belcher is a benchmark of sorts because it requires the control player to:

1. Mulligan properly (FOW / fast wish)
2. Know which threats should be countered - many people just don't consider countering mana sources.
3. Make decisions well, especially with regards to tutors

Anyways, I really enjoyed the article.

No.  Belcher wins on turn 1 or 2.  B/G dragon wins on turn 2 or 3.  This is a BIG difference.  U/B/G dragon at least has FOW and Duress.  Put simply, you lose when belcher goes first (Turn 1 charbelcher).  If you have FoW you don't.  Lucky for you your meta doesn't have other combo.

Um... Yeah... Did you get the memo about white being the worst color?

@Arvid:



1. You cannot count on having both Ankh of Mishra AND Blood Moon in play because the game is usually decided by the time you reach 3 mana (esp. with strip mine/wasteland).  Usually people play an early fetchland and they can break it in response to Ankh / Moon and fetch a basic land.  

2. DO NOT leave us in the dark about your meta and then expect us to know about it.  So either tell us or we can't even try to help you.

3. I totally agree with the Null Rod decision.  Damping Matrix screws up Scroll, Lavamancer, Shaman, and doesn't stop artifact mana sources which is a primary concern.

@Gbj, Swanky

I don't think that Arvid wants to cut the Ankhs from Ankh sligh.  I would suggest discussing it on another thread, but that is entirely up to you.

@Both of you

Both of you have great points, except that the only data that we have is T8 data, and the only way to have enough data to make sense of it is to take a months worth.  This means that you will always need to look back in time for statistics.  This is inherently flawed but, I would argue, is better than guessing about the hate you will face.  Also, taking statistics of all of the decks played at a tourney is also not worth it because there are plenty of scrubs (no offense meant here) at tournaments who show up with bad T2 or extended decks that happen to have some hosers (Null Rod).

@Spizzard

The most MD artifact hate that I see is something like 4x Naturalize, 4x Null Rod, (or 4x of both) 2 or 3x Damping Matrix, or Cunning Wish => RnR / AMut / Hurkyls.  But still Tormod's Crypt is about as popular as Null Rod or RnR.

@BreathWeapon

I agree that Artifact hate is going up while Dragon hate is going down, but many cards that hurt Dragon (Stp, Chain, Stifle) are played MD for reasons other than to hurt Dragon.  I know that Twister and Slavery are breaking out, but we should wait and see before making assumptions about to what extent this will happen.  (Worshops are hard to come by)

@riggy


I was making this assumption, but you can't just go adding stifle to the list because stifle is part of a 2-card combo to disrupt the deck.  In order for it to work you would need 2 different cards in the first 2 (or maybe 3) turns of the game.  In other words, stifle only slows you down 1 turn and that turn only matters if they have another hoser (and mana to play it obv) to take advantage of this.  2-card combos are BAD hosers.

As I said above, you just tap belcher and win before they get priority or in response to artifact destruction.  Trinisphere was not played at all in February.  Goblin Welders don't work because again you go off in response.

The goal is to play a Negator after the control player is out of gas and in topdecking mode.  Four keeper decks T8ed in February (2 Iso, 2 normal) so i guess some people still play it.  Yeah, Negator isn't great, but if the opponent needs to burn / block it then they are not spending resources stopping you from comboing out.  The main threat against control is the 2 extra welders from the SB coming in.

4 Damage per turn = 5 turns to kill
5 Damage per turn = 4 turns to kill

Juggernaut kills the opponent 1 turn faster

The main problem that I have with solemns is that the whole point of TnT is to beat down, not to thin deck / draw cards.  I prefer having an extra Trike and a mana source to further the beats.  Fetching a 4 power or 5 power hasted creature every turn > drawing some cards and fetching lands.

@Breathweapon



Looking at Dr. Sylvan's Type 1 Metagame article, we see a few things:

Note: I am not including FoW, Duress or Mana Drain because they are not specific hosers, just staples of the format.

49 Tormod's Crypt
31 Stifle
22 Naturalize (8 Disenchant 9 Seal of Cleansing)
22 Blue Elemental Blast
20 Pernicious Deed
17 Coffin Purge
11 Chain of Vapor
11 Swords to Plowshares
8 Hydroblast

This gives us a total of 191 hate cards for Dragon

Compare to only

33 CoTV*
20 Pernicious Deed
16 Sphere of Resistance*
6 Energy Flux
4 Damping Matrix
4 Null Rod

83 hate cards for Belcher

This data is not representative of all metagames, but it is clear that Belcher is under most people's radar.  Simple artifact destruction is not enough to hate Belcher, you can just tap belcher in response for the win.



Nope.  Oshawa Stompy plays Naturalize and Root Maze, Tog and GAT play deed, TnT can weld Duplicants at instant speed, and Chain of Vapor is maindecked by various combo decks.

1)  I would argue that SpoilsDragon is as consistant as Belcher because of the Draw 7's.
2) Spoils Dragon is as fast as Belcher because it rarely goes off on turn 1, while Belcher wins on turn one more often than SpoilsDragon.  Furthermore, this is NOT a fact unless you provide GFing or playtesting data.
3) There is more MD hate for Belcher, but much of it is too slow (Damping Matrix and Null Rod won't always hit play before Belcher wins).
4) Agreed, but Duress does slow you down somewhat.
5) Yes, but does this really matter if you are winning on turn 2?  It doesn't matter if you have no land if you have won the game.
6) Belcher has Welder/Belcher synergy and Phyrexian Negators and Artifact Destruction to deal with additional SB hate / increase its threat density.
7) Being more popular HURTS a deck - it just means that more people SB hate agaisnt you.  Affordability has little to do with power.

Belcher's Problems

1) Show me tournament T8's to prove this.
2) Stifling or StPing or bouncing or destroying Animate is as bad a problem for Dragon.
3) Belcher can slow roll against control by casting welders, Draw-7's, and belchers themselves.  Belcher has a poor late game but it should not come down to that.

Belcher adds another combo option to the metagame that can T8 under the radar.  How is this nothing?

SpoilsDragon is a great deck, but it is hated very, very easily.

Here are some commonly played cards that hate it:

Tormod's Crypt
Coffin Purge
Withered Wretch
Stifle
Swords to Plowshares (All other instant speed creature kill)
Naturalize (And other instant speed enchantment removal)
Waterfront Bouncer (All other instant speed bounce)
Pernicious Deed
Ankh of Mishra
Root Maze
Counters (obv.)

Yeah, so Spoils Dragon has lots of hate.  Looking at Belcher hate:

Null Rod
Trinisphere
FoW
Stifle
Root Maze
Damping Matrix
COTV + Sphere [of Resistance] (One alone just doesn't do it)

Overall, SpoilsDragon has much more hate than does Belcher.

Twister.Dec also has more hate because it needs to play > 10 spells in one turn to win while belcher only needs to play a few.  Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, and Root Maze are not as big of problems to Belcher as they are to Twister.Dec.

SpoilsDragon is about as fast as belcher but has more hate, as does Twister.dec.  I guess that's why people play belcher.


THREATS

3x Diminishing Returns
1x Mind's Desire
1x Memory Jar
1x Necro
1x Y Bargain
1x Tinker
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
= 11 threats

4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Goblin Welder
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Necropotence
= 11 threats (13 if you include Living Wish => Welder)

So belcher arguably has more threats than Twister.

To my knowledge, only Oshawa Stompy plays root maze.  Maze alone just slows you down, but you are in no danger of losing outright.  Their only hope is Root Maze followed by Null Rod or Naturalize.  All Root Maze does is slow you down by 2 turns (mana + belcher each CITP tapped).  Also, if you are on the play you can just play all of your mana and stuff on turn one and win after that.  In this case Root Maze doesn't affect you at all.  Only if you lose the die roll is Root Maze a problem.  Root Maze is a major annoyance, NOT a scoop card.

@frimble

I couldn't find anything that was better than Chrome Mox.  It stays.

@bebe

Against control, I find that if you havent resolved either welder or belcher by turn 3 then you lose.

Sol Ring / Chromatic sphere requires mana to begin.  You won't get this mana until AFTER you grant.  But I see your point.

Oxidize is a great SB option against Null Rod.

Dragon should not be compared to this deck.  Long.dec should.  Long did use disruption, and so can you.

@carlosb

I know that Channel is restricted.  This deck is (or at least should be) the reason why.

@bebe



Duress doesn't help you resolve Land Grant unless you have black mana sources to cast it first.  In this case it doesn't matter as much whether grant gets countered (unless you are using lotus/petal) because you still have mana to go off with.

As for the Mind twist, which deck were you playing against.  If you let control survive until turn 3, you have probably lost.

Null Rod is a powerful hoser, but Oxidize handles it better than Duress.

Of course, I don't know your metagame, so if Duress works for you then that is fine.

@Lucentspirit

I, too, like Chrome Mox.  However, sometimes you just get screwed with one card of each color in your starting hand + chrome mox as your mana source.

Channel, when combined with Chromatic Sphere and Mana Cylix lets you go off with Draw 7's.  I haven't lost yet after resolving a Channel.

Tolarian Academy only produces blue mana, while Mishra's Workshop only produces colorless mana to play artifacts.  What if you need to play Wheel of Fortune?  Or Channel?  Or Dark Ritual? Or...

This deck is the reason why Channel should be restricted.

@ Jhaggs

#2

First, which version of mindslaver do you mean: control or workshop.

Against control slaver:
Mindslaver costs 10 mana to play and activate.  This means that the earliest it can come on line is turn 3 (turn 1 welder turn 2 TfK, weld, turn 3 activate).  IMO if the control deck even survives to turn 3 then they probably have won the game.  The only time you would have trouble against control slaver would be if you had too much disruption and had a FT of 3.5 instead of 2.5.

Against workshop slaver:
Again, slaver won't be activated until turn 3.  This isn't fast enough to stop a charbelcher win on turn 2.

#3

Welders are essential against control because they return charbelchers.

#4

Death wish is too hard to cast.

#5

Vineyard gives opponents with little acceleration but hate (Dmatrix, Null rod) a chance to play their hate quickly.  If you want to win quicker then cut some disruption.

#6

Brainstorms have been reduced with lots of success in other builds.  Basically, you don't want to draw 2 brainstorms in a game because you will have trouble casting them - they slow you down in multiples.

Berserk

More Squees, 4th Null Rod

As many Mana Drains as you can afford

Meddling Mage

2 Morphling

Academy Rector

Worldgorger Dragon + Animate effects

Oath of Druids

4 Sinkhole

Ankh of Mishra

Elvish Spirit Guide

Since your meta is some 60-65% aggro, I would suggest playing a version with Duress and/or Unmask to fight off the control decks.

One key thing that you didn't tell us was about the presence of prison decks.  Assuming that there are few of them, I would definitely play charbelcher combo - about 70% of your meta is a good matchup for you (combo and aggro).  Just use a transformational sideboard or something.

If, on the other hand, you see a decent amount of stax / trinistax / Wmud, then you would need to play a deck similar to the Dulmen one if you were to play charbelcher at all.  In this case you could just go and play Hulk with deeds or something, but then again its your choice.

The odds of getting at least 1 of 8 hate cards in an opening hand is 65%, not 70.5%.

P=1-(52/60*51/59*...*46/54)=.65

[/nitpick]

I just don't see how the Dulmen decks beat, say, fish.  Fish has FOW + Stifle + maybe Daze followed up by Null Rod.  

Most importantly, the Dulmen deck only has 3 artifact destruction on the SB*, so doesn't it just roll over and die to Stax / Trinistax?

*assuming that Uktabi Orangutan + Scavenger Folk are wish targets only.

Magic-League.com uses MWS which DOES support wishes.

Also, if wishes were banned, Gay/R would be better because of Lavaman and R&R.

Silly me.  That's what I get for playing on MWS all of the time.

I guess that R&Rs are up because TnT and other workshop decks are on the rise.

Interesting...

I bet the increase in Naturalizes was due to the rise of Oshawa Stompy

The R&Rs increased because everyone feared the rise of Trinisphere and other Workshop decks.  This hasn't happened, so they *should* go down once everyone realizes that Trinisphere isn't quite as broken as they thought.  And R&Rs increased with the rise of TnT.

On the bright side, the Deeds and StoPs are decreasing...

Also, was this data for MD or SB or both?  I'm guessing that lots of the StoPs and some of the Naturalizes listed were maindecked, but since Crypts and R&Rs are SB material only at least I have an easier game 1 than before (Naturalizes get Hymned / Duressed / Unmasked easily).

What do you guys think about Chains of Mephistopheles in Spoils Mask?

I personally don't use a red splash because of the 5 strip + 2 stifle + 2 shaman Blue based control decks.

River Boa is another good creature for B/G decks.