This is the biggest problem...
There were maybe other decks in the field, like WG fish decks, RGB aggro decks, but if at the end, the top 8 is made almost only of BLUE-aggro cotrol decks, it is the only thing people will remember! Who will remember the 21st position of a nice Bwg deck playing confidants,vindicates, ice storms and sudden spoilings (nice secret tech anyways ), and who will remember the 16th position of a nice White fish deck ? Nobody
All people will remember is : if you want to be sure to win (or to be on top8), you must play 4 FoW or 4 Mishra's Workshop on your deck (forgive me if I don't speak about the nice top8 dragon deck )

I totally agree with TheWhiteDragon, this top8 isn't selling me any dreams...

The surprising thing in your list is that you don't include Gifts Ungiven.
Before the restriction, TPS usually used to play two copies of the card.
Now that Gifts is unrestricted again, if I had to play TPS, I would probably try several Gifts in the deck.

I don't know where you have seen that Delver is the best deck...
Many decks are at least as strong as this deck, and even more powerful.

Demonic Tutor warps the manabase ?? There is nothing strange in the fact of playing 3 colors in a deck.
Many blue decks (that play more than 2 colors) win a lot of events everytime in the world. There is nothing strange with that.
I understand that adding a black splash only for DT is not a good reason, but adding black for VT, DT and YawgWill begins to be a really good reason.

Hmm... there is a fight between DT and Yawgmoth's Will for the first place  

Anyway, the "instant" property of Dig leads me to think that it will be more played than Cruise, even with the UU in the mana cost.

The french player who finished 3rd of Bazaar of Moxen with a madness deck is an expert of Control Slaver, and he immediatly played Triskelavus when the card had been printed.
With some Welders, the card was extremely good against a lot of match-ups.

I remember Wonder was played in decks like Madness.
It is an interesting idea but does Slaver need flying creatures in order to win ?

Comparing Gifts Ungiven to Hidetsugu's Second Rite is a joke !

And casting Gifts Ungiven in a first turn using a Black Lotus is not a bad play.
If you make a pile with cards like Ancestral Recall, Gush, FoW, Dark Confidant, Time Walk or Brainstorm, you are very fine.
In this case, you will not seek the turn 2 kill, but you will shape a good hand.
This is the power of Gifts, you can set a killing pile, or you can basically make CA and QA at the same time. It depends on the situation.

I find that the examples against Gifts mentioning graveyard hate cards are bad. Why ? Because the same example can be used to criticize Yawgmoth's Will. Try to win with Yawgmoth's Will when there is Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt... And nobody uses the argument to say that Yawgmoth's Will is a "favorable circumstances" winner. People say it is a winner. Every card in MtG can be stopped by another one. This is not a criteria that defines the power of a card.

Why should I be the person who doesn't understand the other ?
I could say the same thing about you.

You have your point of view, I have my point of vue. These are different and this is not dramatic


The only thing I wanted to point (in favor of Gifts Ungiven), it is this:

I think it is easy to understand.
After that, when and why some players prefer play other cards than this one is another question...But the fact is that this card can win games with an incredible efficiency.
In control slaver, which plays Welder, it seems a real mistake to not play a game winner like Gifts. My 2 cents.

I am like you : I do not play Ancestral Recall because it is restricted, i play it because it is a powerful card ! But now, in the same way : why Ancestral Recall is restricted ? Because it's powerful !!! If we want to be as accurate as possible, the sentence should be "Because the card is TOO powerful if played in x4 in a deck!".
Don't try to separate the two ideas : the two things ARE linked. Players want to play the best cards, AND the more powerful cards (too powerful if playable in x4) are restricted. Where would be an interest in restricting a card that is not doing a distortion of the format ?



I said that many players don't play Gifts Ungiven because the card is difficult to play, and I'm sure I'm right.
But you want to let me say that this is an exclusive reason ! I never said that !
Many very good players don't play the card, basically because they play decks where the card is not strong.
Gifts Ungiven is a special card, it doesn't fit in every deck. I even would say that the card needs a deck specially builded around it.



This is a very poor argument.
I can absolutely say that for EVERY card in Magic. I can say for example that Yawgmoth's Will is not a "I win" card in all situations (for example with an opponent's Tormod's Crypt on the board). Will you say that the card is not a "I win" card ?


But this is a part of the truth.
Another part is that many players loved play Gifts Ungiven x4, because it was exciting to win with a so broken tutoring engine! But the same players have the slackness to try to build something interesting with only one copy of the card in the deck. It's so easy to put 4 Jaces in a deck to obtain something strong. It's 10 times less interesting, but it's strong as well. 4 Gifts >>> 4 Jace, but 1 Gifts <<< 4 Jace : this is the reason why players choose Jace.

And you will ask me : so why people don't play Jaces AND Gifts ?
Answer : because it's not the same deckbuilding approach and the two cards don't work very well together, so where would be the interest of playing both ? One is trying to make a lot of CA and gives board management, where the other is trying to open a time window in ordre to win in one shot.

I know very well what you are saying. Smennen didn't discover that Merchant Scroll could search Ancestral Recall and resolve it for 1UU. Many french players were using several Scrolls in their deck before the popularization of this habit in the US.
Why do you talk about the need of removing permanent based solutions ? In a situation where you have to remove something out of the board in order to win, you will have to do the same with Fact or Fiction or Jace. The difference is that even if you remove the problem , fact or jace will not automaticaly give you the win, where Gifts Ungiven will win the game. Yes, with Gifts, you need a window to kill, but a window in one turn is enough. Give me names of other cards that can do he same ? Only very few cards exist, like Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Bargain, Necropotence, Doomsday or Mind's Desire.

Other point : you only talk about Meandeck Gifts. This in not the only way to play Gifts Ungiven. I prefer play it with Auriok Salvagers, you need less mana than the Recoup plan.



So you think that if a card is not played, automatically it is bad ? The argument is very poor.
The card is not very played because many players can't play it properly.
Fact or fiction, Tezzeret the seeker or Jace are far easier to play.

And in order to come back on the thread, I think that it would be a real mistake NOT to play Gifts Ungiven in a deck like Slaver.
The card is always strong by itself (double demonic tutor for 3U !), and if you have an active welder on play, it's an automatic win !

1) I don't say that Jace is easy to play. It has 3 very good capacities so you have to make a choice each turn. But even is the card is hard to play, Gifts Ungiven is far more diffilcult to play ! It is easy to find a strong pile of 4 good cards...But often, you have only ONE optimal pile which gives you immediatly the victory, and THIS pile is very difficult to find.
You disagree with almost everything I said, ok, from my side, I won also several pieces of power with Gifts Ungiven, and still find myself misplaying with Gifts...so who is right ? You or me, or both ?

2) The instant speed of Gifts gives you a big advantage by minimising the effect of a Mana drain. You can cast it EOT when you have 4 manas. With Jace, it is impossible, you must wait having several backs-up to be sure that an opponent Mana drain will not resolve.

3) "The argument that a card is restricted is a very poor argument for one card being better than another." Sure! Everyboby knows that cards are restricted for the fun, and absolutely not accordingly to their own power It you are sure of your affirmation, ask Smennen to ask to DCI to derestrict Gifts Ungiven, just for curiosity! Even with 10 Deathrite Shaman in the deck, a deck with 4 Gifts Ungiven will beat him !

FRANCE - MAGIC 93-94 (OldSchool Vintage) Tournament - Sunday 2nd of November, 2014


Hi all !



A Vintage Oldschool (Magic93/94) will be organised on Sunday 2nd of November 2014, in France, in Montbéliard (East of France, close to Germany and close to Switzerland).


Drink and food will be available on place.


Here under, the informations concerning the tournament :



"MAGIC 93-94" TOURNAMENT (also called "Old School Vintage") :

- Date : Sunday 2nd of November, 2014
- Adress : La Roselière - Place du Champ de Foire - 25200 Montbéliard
- Format : MAGIC93/94 (VINTAGE "OLDSCHOOL")  >>>  VERY IMPORTANT : Editions "COLLECTOR EDITION" ET "INTERNATIONAL EDITION" ARE ALLOWED !!!
- Entry fee : 10 Euros
- Registrations : 10 A.M
- Tournament start : 11 A.M
- Maximum number of players : 48
- Drink and food on place


Rules:

In order to allow an access to this format to a maximum of players :

ALL THE CARDS WHOSE NAMES EXIST in one of the editions from Alpha to Fallen (included) ARE ALLOWED !!
Examples : you can play an Ice Age "Giant Growth", you can play a Chronicles "City of Brass" and you can play a 8th edition "Birds of Paradise".

Except the rule of "Mana burn" which is applied like in 1994, the other playing rules are the same than the actual ones.


Prices:

1   1 Mana Drain
2   1 Mirror Universe
3   1 Regrowth Beta
4   Depending on attendance
5   Depending on attendance
6   Depending on attendance
7   Depending on attendance
8   Depending on attendance


Extra prices :

TWO scelled boosters of the 3th black border edition will be offered in this tournament !




We hope that a lot of players will come and enjoy participate to this tournament !



For those who are interested by the format, here is the main link:   http://oldschool-mtg.blogspot.fr/


Another useful link : http://www.eternalcentral.com/oldschool/



Here under is the banned/restricted list, which is almost the same than the list used by Eternal central:
(Only one card from the Fallen edition is restricted : Hymn to Tourach)




The following cards are banned in this tournament:
• Bronze Tablet
• Contract from Below
• Darkpact
• Demonic Attorney
• Jeweled Bird
• Rebirth
• Tempest Efreet
• Shahrazad



The following cards are restricted in this tournament:
• Ancestral Recall
• Balance
• Black Lotus
• Braingeyser
• Chaos Orb
• Channel
• Demonic Tutor
• Hymn to Tourach
• Library of Alexandria
• Mana Drain
• Maze of Ith
• Mind Twist
• Mox Emerald
• Mox Jet
• Mox Pearl
• Mox Ruby
• Mox Sapphire
• Recall
• Regrowth
• Sol Ring
• Time Vault
• Time Walk
• Timetwister
• Wheel of Fortune



Registrations:

For registrations, please send an email here : oldschoolmagic-fr@netcourrier.com
 



Thank you and good luck to everyone !

I don't understand how it is possible to prefer Jace to Gifts Ungiven whan you can play a 4CC spell...
When it was possible to play 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven, it was usual to make mana piles, or piles including another copy of Gifts Ungiven.
But when you can play only one copy of the card, you must use it at its optimal power : the immediate win.

Gifts Ungiven is like Yawgmoth's Bargain : it is written "I win" on the card.
But I understand that the card if more difficult to play properly than Jace.
Jace can (sometimes) win the game, but often against other control decks.
Against aggro decks, if I have 4 manas available on turns 1 or 2, I will never want to cast Jace !
And against control decks, trying to resolve a Jace like that is suicide when the opponent plays Mana drain!

Concerning colored mana, Jace needs UU where Gifts needs U : huge difference.
Concerning speed, Jace is a ritual speed spell where Gifts is an instant speed spell : second huge difference.
Third difference : Gifts Ungiven, well played, wins you the game on the spot, where Jace wins the game only half or third of the times, and usually against control decks only.

Jace is a very strong card, but let's be honest : the card is not restricted instead of Gifts Ungiven which is limited.
If Gifts is restricted and Jace is not, there is a reason, it isn't  ??

In order to be told about that fact, just ask to DCI to derestrict Gifts....you will see the results very quickly 
Next Top8s full of Jace.decks or Gifts.decks ? I think everybody knows the answer 

Guys, to lose against Time Vault + Key when you were winning on the board, just because you couldn't counter this stupid combo, is by far more annoying than just having to wait a kill when you assembled the combo and when the opponent doesn't want to concede.

Time Vault + Key is a virtual kill, if you want to avoid having to face an opponent who doesn't want to concede to this combo, change your kill

Surviving to a first turn Juggernaut + Winter Orb is easier than it seems at the first impression  Consider for example a card like Meekstone...
It costs one colorless mana and keep blocked all the Juggys, Sushis and Juzam of the Earth!

The famous Bertrand Lestree was playing Argothian Pixies maindeck againts these types of threats : Djuggy, Sushi, Mishra's factory...

But I agree that there is a huge difference between MWS and Mana Vault. Mana Vault is strong but can't be used easily every turn.  With MWS, you can play a Djuggernaut every turn, until your hand is empty of robots !!

My approach is different indeed. But I talk about something tested, because I played tournaments with Tendrils, others with Vault-Key, and others with Aether Spellbomb, in Bomberman. And my conclusion has been that most of the time, Tendrils was the option that I would have wanted or needed.
You guys have you tried different tools listed below ?

The discussion is not so far from debating about one card, because in a list like Phele's deck, I think just adding Tendrils would be good. Adding black just for Confidant is sad in my opinion. If you add a black splash, it's obvious that the broken package (Demonic, Vampiric, YawgWill) will add real power to the deck. And adding the Tendrils will add another very interesting plan.

We are talking about adding a "kill on the turn" card, so I would'nt want to talk too much about my list beacuse it's really different from the lists of this topic, and would be out of topic. For those interested, there is already atopic here : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39374.0

But even in a list like Phele's list, I'm sure that Tendrils is a really good option. It has a good synergy with Dark Confidant, which are the first 4 black cards added inside his list.

@Cruel Ultimatum and @ Wagner :
Play the cards you want in your deck, that's not a problem for me, I just explain my choices and how I have always played Bomberman.

Concerning Time Vault /Key, UW Bomberman does'nt play Yawgmoth's Will, so if Time Vaut have been countered or Duressed, you can't win this combo.
Concerning Clique, if the opponent's kept his Tendrils on the top of library (with Sensei's Top for example, of after a Brainstorm, Ponder or Preordain), your Vendilion Clique is useless.
Concerning Inkwell Leviathan, that's wrong. Many players play it on sideboard in order to be able to beat Fish and WG decks.

What you don't understand, is that I am explaining why Tendrils is not a dead card and why playing the card adds a real brokeness in a deck like Bomberman.
I kill 50% of the time with Tendrils, including half of theses games by the combo Auriok-Lotus-Tendrils, and the other half by Yawgmoth's + Tendrils or something similar (with Hurkyl + Tendrils, or with Chain of Vapor + Snapcaster Mage + Tendrils, or etc...).
But, ok, you can continue to play your versions, I don't force anyone to play the same cards than mine .

UW Bomberman is not broken, it's a verry controlish deck, it's a strong deck, but it can't rarely return completely a critical situation, than a deck with Tendrils can do it.
With your UW deck, if your opponent is taking the control of the game, it's almost impossible to reverse the situation. You have Lotus on the gravyard and you want to cast Auriok ? He will counter it. You want to try to win with your small creatures ? He will win with Time Vault-Key, or Tinker-BSC, or Jace.
When you play Tendrils, the opponent must be VERY watchful with all your plays, because a simple Vampiric Tutor he lets resolve can be lethal.
Control decks can't handle so easily with Tendrils.

Tendrils allows to win games by Duress + Yawgmoth's Will, even if Lotus have been removed.
As I said before, if you remove Lotus from the UW version, you obtain a sort of Fish deck with Mana Drains, not really the decks I like to play
The version with Tendrils is really less Lotus dependant.

Wrong.
You can force the way of your Auriok, and the opponent can have no counters in hand but a lot of other stuff.
When you see that you are losing the card advantage war and you have Tendrils in hand, you keep all your moxes and other artifacts in hand, in order to be stopable only by Mindbreak Trap or (may be) Flusterstorm. In this case, the opponent has nothing to do to stop a lethal Tendrils, because there are not key spells.

And the problem of cards like Inkwell Leviathan are not solved. To solve it, you need to sideboard cards like Rebuild/Hurkyl that are not good cards in a UW Bomberman deck.

It depends completely on what is your "dead" card.
If you're talking about Tendrils, this IS NOT a dead card.
But the card needs to be played in a control-combo deck, and not in a classical very controlish bomberman list.

Tendrils allows you to win games even when the opponent is putting you "out" of the game.
Sometimes, Dark Confidant let him to win the "draw-war" but costs him enough life points, to allow you to finish him with a small Tendrils.
It happened to me many times, to win a game where I could play only some moxen and a Tendrils and where the opponent didn't have the Mindbreak Trap or the Flusterstorm in hand.

If Bomberman draws his entire deck with Lotus and Spellbomb, it's not a guarantee of winning the game.
The split second spell is not necessary, if you already played your Flusterstorm/MB Traps, and the opponent can cast a Tendrils, you lose.
Another example : once in a tournament game, an Inkwell Leviathan attacked me two times before I could combo with Auriok. If I had played the classic Bomberman version, I would have lose to a last Islanwalk attack (Spellbomb doesn't work with Leviathan). But I was playing Tendrils, and I just won on the spot.
If it arrived to me, it's the proof that sometimes it happens to lose because your can't is not able to win a game on the spot.
I don't say Bomberman is not a good deck, but in reality, it's a Control deck that wins usually with small creatures, and that "occasionally" wins with the Auriok combo.
Tendrils allows the deck to win in the same manner than the old Gifts decks, via Yawgmoth's Will, or Hurkyl's Recall. The Auriok combo is very fragile (to cards like Extirpate, Surgical Extraction,...) and if Lotus is removed from the game, UW Bomberman becomes almost a fish deck with Mana Drains. That is why I have always prefered a version that can make broken big turns.
 

Less time you give to your opponent to find answers/solutions, better it is. Obviously, to win immediately resolves this problem efficiently. And winning is also the best way to resolve the problem of the opponent's board.
It resolves as well the problem of the additional turns in tournaments.

In every deck, it's always a good thing to be able to win on the spot.

When I play Bomberman, I always play Tendrils of Agony. It's the best tool if you want to win on the spot. It's better than Pyrite Spellbomb or Maniac because it works with the Auriok combo, and can also work without the combo. I you want to win on the spot using a blue instant, Brain Freeze is not very good, because of cards like Emrakul. It's better to use Stroke of Genius (via Cunning Wish for example). Stroke IS a real "win on the spot" because if you draw your deck with spellbomb, you have 10 counters in hand and your spell can't be countered.

But for me, the best card that wins on the spot, it's clearly Tendrils.

Nice and clever proposal, Phele !
I like very much this idea of Serenity complete set + Ancient Tomb!

I am really disapointed of never having thought to add Ancient Tombs against MUD in a sideboard!
Really interesting idea that will need test, and not only in a Bomberman deck, but in many decks.

I obviously talked about my own experience, I never lost against MUD when I resolved Flux.

When I say Flux wins itself, I consider that the Flux player is doing the right choices and the right plays. Obviously, if you don't counter the right spells or if you draw 10 lands in your 10 next draws, you can't do miracles...

But anyway, like TheWhiteDragon, my favorite card, by far, is SERENITY !
We need to be careful with the turn we give before we can destroy everything, that is true, but this disavantage must be accepted, in exchange of the HUGE advantage it gives you when your swap all the artifacts for one single two-mana spell!
(I remember one game where I had Serenity and could cast it against MUD, but it had played a Hellkite the turn before, and the beast was able to destroy the enchantment if Serenity was played form my hand. In this case, you need to destroy Hellkite before you play Serenity). Except the case "Hellkite", I don't see other MUD threats that can handle with Serenity.

No problem, everybody has his preferences, but if we want to be impartial, we can say that both versions are strong



Yes, sorry, I looked quickly at your list, thinking it was similar to the first list posted
In a Uwb Bomberman version, I always play these 4 cards

I don't understand why this thread is becoming a debate between which version is the best.

Both versions (UW and UWB) are good, but are not designed for the same playstyle plan.

Uw is more controlish, and Uwb more comboish.

Ok, everybody in the world has seen that Kohler is chaining the top8s with the UW version, but this is not a clue indicating that it is the best version. It shows that it is currently the version prefered by some good players in tournament.

For sure, Jace is a good card, Trinket is not a bad card as well, but I think experience has showed enough that Vampiric Tutor, Demonic tutor, Tinker , and Yawgmoth's Will (this one not present in Phele list?) are cards that win games on their own. If a player wants to add a black splash in a Bomberman list, it's not a crime, and I will say that the power of the 4 cards quoted before are a very good reason to add a color splash in a deck.

I talked about Energy Flux, not Kataki.
For sure, Kataki is not enough strong to beat MUD.
But between 1 extra to pay, and 2 extra mana to pay, there is a huge difference.
I never saw MUD win against me when I resolved an Energy Flux.
With only Wastelands, Mishra's Factories and Ancient Tomb able to give the mana needed (MWS can't give this mana), MUD can keep only very few artifacts in play.
MUD has to choose between keep in play its threats or its locks (without lock pieces, opponent can easily win (Hurkyl EOT for example), and without pressure, opponent can take time to lay his mana base). For example, MUD needs 4 mana per turn to keep a Golem and an Sphere in play (wich is the minimum to lock seriously an opponent)

I didn't say Chewer is a bad card, this is probably the best 1-for-1 card against MUD.
But I agree with those who think that mass denial cards are more efficient.

I continue to think and say that Energy Flux beats alone MUD.
Yes, the dice roll is very important in tgis match-up, and yes, sometimes you will not be able to cast a 3-mana cost spell the entire game.
But it occurs also a lot for 1-mana spells.
Sometimes, MUD is broken, it plays Golem+Sphere on turn 1, and you lose even with 4 Ingot Chewer in hand, because you can't cast ONE spell in the game. That's Vintage.

I saw many decks resolve 3 Chewer and lose against MUD.

Don't forget you play FoW and Mana Drain. MUD has not 100% of the time impossible starting hands.
Sometimes, you just need to FoW the right artifact, and you're able to resolve Flux.
I saw Spanish players sideboard another card that I found to be a very clever choice : Porcelain Legionnaire (and it's white, nice for Bomberman )
This choice is not fighting against lock piece, but it tries to keep you alive against the Turn1-Golem-MUD-broken hands.

Legionnaire is not affected by Golem neither Thorn. It's a good solution to stop a turn1 Golem (It would be interesting to know the % of games that MUD wins only with the turn 1 MWS+Mox+ Golem, it may be huge IMHO)

I was thinking exactly the same.
Phele forgot Serenity! Basically the best anti artifact card.

An Ingot Chewer or a Rack and Ruiw will never be as strong as Serenity against MUD.

And I see that a card is forgotten, and it's a blue card : Energy Flux.
It costs 3 so it's hard to play against MUD, but you need just ONCE three manas, and the card beats MUD alone.

Ah? And from what dictionnary or book did you find this "trademark"? This is just your point of view. The point of view of the majority is that you can call a deck "turbo" when it plays mana acceleration which fits in the build and which have synergy with it.

No, the concept is completely different. The kill is the same, but not the concept. Tezzeret is not a concept by itself, it's a card. The synergies buit around make the concept.
To play Tezzeret on turn 4, even if you have 4 Tezzeret on your list, it's not what I call "Turbo". Grim Monoliths allow to play regularly Tezz on turn 2, which fits better with the word "Turbo".

The concept of Turbo-Tezz involded a new draw engine which was almost not used before : Key + Sensei.
The addition of Grim Monolith created new synergies : high mana production with the Keys, be able to play Tezzeret very quickly, be able to hardacst Robots.
 

I remember your list
Your deck is one of the first to use 4 Tezzerets, but it uses only 1 Key and no Grim Monoliths. So it's the first "4xTezz deck", but not really "Turbo" IMO

Just to clarify the origin of the archetype for Matt Ellias and others :

In fact I think it's really NOT CRUCIAL to know who is the inventor of the deck, but as I see, nobody knows the beginnings of this build.

The first top8 with the deck has been done by Grégoire Vienne, a Swiss player:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1338&highlight=Tezzeret_the_Seeker   (Same link than voltron00x)

And the real creator of the deck is another great Swiss player : Célien Berthold   (in particular Célien splitted the Vintage finals of BOM2)
Grégoire is a friend of Célien and basically he has been the first player to decide to play in tournament the deck created by Célien.
This was the first deck playing several Tezzs, Keys and Grim Monoliths.

The first version was mono-blue and quickly switched to a UB version (like the Nicolas Pujol version).


This is the real story. So Spain is not the cradle of the deck, and John Jones is not the creator of the deck but he made very good results with it, and participated to popularize the deck