Thank you all for your feedback.

@killane : while I appreciate the effort you did with your report, I have the following comments :
- Without a decklist of what you played, it is hard to figure if the report is relevant at all (not in an absolute manner, but as a comment on the specific deck presented here). What oath targets did you play ? Which of TPS's bombs did you play ? If your decklist significantly differs from the one presented here, your comments may apply to it and not to the one introduced here.
- You argue about the deck's lack of bombs, but all of TPS' engines (bargain, desire, necropotence, ywill, gifts...) but memory jar are present in the list I posted. So either you play a very different decklist (making this comment irrelevant to the one presented here), or you'll have to elaborate as to which bombs are missing.
- You are not without realizing that a single's tournament experience is not necessary to evaluate a deck's abilities. We've all experienced this feeling of being over-confidant in a deck, getting crushed in a tournament, and leaving with the feeling the deck sucks, but it doesn't have to be true, 5 matches are very few to evaluate a deck's potential. I've been testing this deck for hundreds of games, but I waited until 4 different people posted results with it (among which two tournament wins) to post it here, because there is a need of quantity in the number of results + number of players posting the results to determine a deck's viability.


Regarding your conclusions :


To quote america's favorite vintage writer, this is comparing apples and oranges. Iona oath is not a combo oath, it is a control deck. It's not your oath target(s) that make the deck control or combo, it's the shell it lies within. Iona oath plays many counters and hybrids the oath plan in the control shell, so much that it inclues its main "kill" (vault/key). This deck plays oath in the storm shell : rituals, bombs, and 7-9 disrupt like in TPS.

Iona oath may very well be better or as good in a number of matchups, but where Iona oath fails in my opinion is in the "traditionnal" control matchup (tezz). Just like this version struggles in the TPS matchup, Iona struggles in the controle MU. Only TPS is nowhere to be seen these days whereas tezz hass been *the* control deck for months. Iona oath has an inherent disadvantage when facing control : its kill takes many more slots, it has 2 awful topdecks (iona and krosan), and control has a much better draw engine. The machup Tezz vs Iona Oath is therefore clearly to the advantage of stock tezz (without regards to other matchups, in which Iona may very well fare better), and I wouldn't want to enter any tournament with a deck that has a bad matchup against the main control archetype.


These two comments without facts or reasonning to back them up seem a bit blunt. Too will dependant ? How is it more will dependant than TPS ? Why is it a problem to rely a lot on Ywill ? You can win very easily with this deck without ywill, by either resolving on of TPS' engines, or by assembling witness+tyrant, or even just tyrant.


I'm not trying to stick another game plan into oath of druids, I'm sticking another game plan into TPS. Oaths are here to complement TPS's toolbox of bombs and tutors aimed at achieving storm 10+toa. They do so by acting both as a bomb and a tutor, and by taking the tinker role as well.


Thanks . Oath plays two roles in this deck : increase the density of threats, and attack from a complementary angle than traditionnal TPS tools. it essentially accomplished the same thing as tinker in TPS : either enable storm via witness, or bring in an alternate win cond in tyrant. Only you get to play 4 oaths instead of 1 tinker, and tyrant is much more versatile than a colossus, acting as a storm generator, bounce engine, or hand-made yagmoth's will with witness.


Not worse than drawing colossus or jar while comboing in stock TPS... I've posted the ins/outs regarding this in order to highlight the differences between the decks. it is true that you have less storm generators in this deck than in regular TPS, but that doesn't mean there are not enough. As I said already, the main engine affected by this is necropotence. It is the only card that I've found I had to play more conservatively than when piloting regular TPS. But playing it more conservatively, does it mean it loses you the game ? Of course not. Necropotence still wins just so many games, only it might take 2 or 3 turns instead of 1. The game is still just as sealed by the black enchantment.


This is so easy to make up. Ever need to find a counter and draw a confidant ? Ever need a qasali pridemage and draw a tarmogoyf ? Ever need a dredger and draw a bridge from below ? Come on.


It would be true if you could run 4 tinkers. Losing the counter battle around tinker, or getting the colossus bounced kicks you out of the game. With 4 oaths, your odds of drawing into it are much higher, you can activate it multiple times, and tyrant offers a lot more flexibility than DSC.


And 3 more lands. And I am boarding an oath package against decks that do mana denial. TPS needs a super-strong manabase because it will need plenty of mana to launch its nukes. Oath archetypes don't because against decks that do denial, the 1G enchantment does wonders.


You clearly do not understand how this deck works. Stop considering Oath and Storm as 2 separate strategies. Forget about all decks that need oath to win. Here oath is a complement of the existing bombs in TPS to generate storm. It's not like it costs 6 to resolve an oath and win from there. It's a 1G spell. There is no reason to consider that running it makes your game plan unfocussed.



Show and tell needs you to have the target in your hand. It's really bad.


If I posted here, it is because with 7 top8s and 2 tournaments wins in the hands of 4 different pilots, this assertion you just made is false.


First, many oath decks run 3 targets (if you include krosan).
Second 2 of your targets are 1GG legged regrowths, which in any matchup that doesn't do denial (and even soemtimes in those) are completely hardcastable, and which can turn out to be pretty good in some matchups (tezzeret being the most notable one).
Rather than argue other that, let's take the last 3 tops8s posted on this very forum, and look at the dudes.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39879.0
R.Shay playing iona, colossus, terrastodon
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39909.0
S.Robbins playing hellkite*2, iona
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39896.0
M.Klemic playing hellkite, iona, kartus, krosan

Looking at the above, how does running 1*tyrant and 2*witness seem dodgy ? The witnesses are incomparable as topdecks to any of the above, and at least the tyrant pitches.


this however is a very valid point. In the original post, I discuss in the "possible improvements" section that playing only 1 witness is an option. Playing 2 feels more comfortable, considering its hardcastability, especially if you draw 1 and can resolve oath but not hardcast the witness. Witness #1 very often turns into time walk (directly or via a tutor) in order to grab the second and have a GY more full. But I'm not sold on the issue of 1 witness vs 2.

I'm curious though of the "original build" you mention ? I haven't found another witness-tyrant-storm version played in a tournament anywhere, I'd be very interested in any pointer you'd have to another try at building this.


This is all explained in the first post really. I know it's long, but it's there.
The gist is : you don't need your whole GY to win, krosan is an awful topdeck, krosan is counterable, krosan+iona is 2 awful topdecks, draw iona means krosan unprotected, to leverage the latest you can board stuff like latnam's legacy but it means 2 awful topdecks + bad cards, finally tyrant synergizes better with the rest of the deck.


While it's true that the deck was picked up by players (much ?) above the average, you gotta wonder why they did so . Also, at what stage do we consider that tournament results are out of the random pot of luck and become statistical proof ? I posted here thinking the results posted in #8 were enough, but you don't have to agree (nobody has ). Consider though that appart from these results, the deck was almost never played, which means the "conversion rate" has been pretty good so far.


This is a very valid point. And while it is true of many vintage decks (TPS, tezz, oath...), it still definitely is a weakness of the deck, just as well as being able to sport sacrament in the SB is a strength.


Regarding thegifts question : I would never question gift in TPS. It's just either game winning or game breaking. Seal has the problem over the other 2 topdeck tutors not to work in the oath->witness->tutor->draw chain. Another player of the deck chose to run 1 grim tutor though.

Thanks again for all the answers .

This thread is meant to present a deck which hasn't received yet much attention outside of France, however in this country it has top8ed several times in the past few months and won a couple of tournaments, the results being posted first in my hands and then by several other pilots who picked up the deck, which is why I took the time to write this and posted in the open forum (section #8 has results which I believe are suited to call this deck "proven").
While the deck doesn't feature particularly new or unseen before cards or ideas, it pushes pretty far a concept that hasn't been fully explored yet : hybriding oath and storm archetypes.

0. Deck name
1. Decklist
2. Deck inception
3. Deck features
4. Sideboard
5. Matchup analysis
6. Room for improvement and alternate choices
7. Common questions and critics
8. Deck results

0. Deck name

I don't care much about deck names, I called it "grim oath" and "junk oath" in the past, here it's referred to as "oath combo" fairly often, I called the latest version "broken oath" because I once swore that I wouldn't ever play a vintage deck without tinker because it was just so fucking dumb, and well, I did with this deck ^^.

1. Deck list

I guess a thread can't really start another way.


2. Deck inception

I'm a long-time TPS player, a deck that I love and that brought me a good amount of results (among which a top8 at bazaar of moxen 2). My sideboard strategies to fight with the difficult matchups of the deck has been similar to other's (first with tombstalkers, then tarmo+confidants), but the last times I played a smennen-like TPS list, my sideboard strategy against shops and fish was to transform into oath (with empyrial*2 and gaeas blessing originally). With the advent of confidant-remora tezz over here in europe last year, I realised that boarding the oath plan was more and more relevant in matchups they were not meant to adress originally, and thought that if I was gonna board it 70+ % of the time, I should run it maindeck. From there I started working on a TPS-oath hybrid.

A little bit of initial research provided me with some lists which were either obsolete due to restrictions or didn't make me particularly happy (samples 1 2 3).
My own first build (list) kept tinker->jar and incorporated oath with tyrant and magister sphinx as creatures (hence the name junk oath, magister sphinx being a junk rare). Sphinx had the advantage of being a 2-turn clock like colossus, pitching to fow, and not trampling over tokens to avoid the opponent activating oath. While I had some good results with the list, I wasn't yet completely happy with the synergies between the two strategies. I wanted the oath plan to fit in the storm plan better, to depend less on drawing my beasts, and to avoid bad cards such as krosan reclamation or lat nam's legacy.
The recent explosion in the european meta of qasali pridemage decks made the sphinx obsolete, and tyrant just by himself often felt underwhelming. This is how I arrived to the tinkerless tyran-witness version presented here.

3. Deck features

To get to the above list I tried to adress some of the weaknesses of the decks I wanted to hybrid :

A. Generally speaking, why does TPS lose games ?
a. Because many cards make the storm plan unavailable or very difficult (spheres, cannonists, chalice, null rod). TPS is made to adress one of those threats landing the board, but if a second hits, or if a counter hits the countermeasure, you're pretty much out (the latter is particularly relevant in the fish-infested meta with have over-here).
b. (a year ago) Because of mystic remora. Control was 2 years ago a good matchup for TPS. Then came mystic remora, and suddenly control became another difficult matchup, making the whole field really hostile to the deck. This is less important today because remora (at least over here) has become much less played in a metagame full of creatures.
.c Because of a too low threat density. With spell pierce joining fish and control's usual annoyances package, resolving a bomb (which is normally all what tps needs) has become much more difficult then it used to, the increase in the amount of counters in opposing decks making draw7s more unreliable as well. Therefore, getting to the critical turn with at the very least one and preferably two disruption elements in hand has become much more of a necessity, the problem being that nowadays even control has a clock able to match the time necessary to achieve that.

B. Generally speaking, why does (traditional) oath lose games ?
a. Because it relies on oath too much. Cards like chalice, meddling mage, and now qasali pridemage (and trygon to a lesser extent) punish strongly a deck relying only on oath to win. Iona versions are the evolution of control-oath to adress this issue (actually another hybrid), by incorporating the tezz plan in addition to the oath one.
b. Because of a too slow clock. Killing 3 turns after playing oath is too slow. Killing 2 turns after playing oath will sometimes prove too slow. This is particularly relevant in the control matchup. If it takes a couple of turns to find the oath of the orchard, then another couple to kill, chances are your opponent kill have infinite turn'ed you before. This is even more important in this matchup because due to the number of slots you need for the "kill" (6-8 depending on the version), a control deck built with less slots to kill has a better draw engine and more counter backup than you do.
c. Because of an oath target being removal-sensitive. Swords, ET, CoV, duplicant, depending on the oath version you're playing, can ruin the day if they shot the only target you had remaining.
d. Because of so many insanely awful topdecks. Drawing one of your targets is not only bad because it isn't in your library anymore, but also because you just lost that draw. In a vintage game that can easily be all what's needed to make a difference. The third target (often krosan reclamation or gaea's blessing) will also be an awful card to have in hand in 90% of cases.

The list above, by incorporating tidespout tyrant and eternal witness as oath targets, tries to maintain as many advantages as possible of both the original strategies :

- The power of the bombs, flexibility and explosiveness in TPS.
- The ability of oath to win by playing a single undercosted card.

and, in the meantime, adress the issues listed previously :

A.a. Hate cards that are a problem for TPS are virtually ineffective against oath. One strategy relies on playing plenty of spells, the other on resolving a single 2-mana enchantment.
A.b. While remora isn't much present anymore as it used to, oath just needs you to play a single spell to win. Also nowadays, most control decks are playing at least a few creatures, which definitely helps the matchup.
A.c. While the deck has lost tinker and jar compared with original TPS, it has won 4 oaths as additional bombs in its package, giving it an overall higher threat density, even moreso in matchups without mana denial in which witnesses can be reliably harcastable.

B.a. The storm plan in the deck remains very solid. This is not primarily an oath deck. It isn't primarily a TPS deck either, while it definitely is a storm deck. I've made statistics out of the hundreds of games I played with the deck, and "only" approximately 60% of victories relied on oath to win. You'll just as often as in TPS be able to tutor for a turn 2 necropotence and win from there.
B.b. There are plenty of ways the deck will win on "first" activation (see further down). The kill rate at the second activation is extremely high.
B.c. Witnesses are virtually immune to removal (in that they provide their benefit on the CIP). Getting a tyrant bounced can be handled (if necessary) by witnessing brainstorm. Getting a tyrant plowsharised sucks, although most of the times against decks that play swords oathing double witness takes care of the game.
B.d. The single bad topdeck is tidespout tyrant. The witnesses are completely hardcastable, and are even pretty good against anything that doesn't do too much mana denial (control primarily), mana denial strategies being the ones against which oath shines. Even having tyrant in hand, if you need it to bounce some annoyance, witnessing brainstorm will allow that. No krosan ! The risk to get killed by an innoportune spell snare on krosan disappears, and a very bad topdeck with it. With 2 witnesses and all the tutors in the deck, you will have access to your whole deck, without the need to put your balls on the table.

So what exactly happens when you oath with this deck ?

The main idea is to either witness a Ywill, or witness a time walk until you have both tyrant and witness in play, point from which if you have mox/spell you can bounce/play witness for a hand-built infinite ywill. There are many variants that can lead you to win like this on first activation, just to list a couple :
oath->witness->walk->oath->win
Or without walk in the first graveyard drop :
oath->witness->mystical->walk->oath
oath->witness->vampiric->walk->oath
oath->witness->demonic->walk->oath
From there, if you oath the 2d witness, in 99% of cases you'll have enough in the yard to kill (directly or from tutoring ywill to kill). If you oath the tyrant in 2d position, there are many tyrant+witness shenanigans, again just to list the main ones :

Tyrant + Witness + 5 manas + walk = infinite turn (who needs time vault anyway ? ).
Tyrant + Witness + mox emerald or black lotus + 1 extra artifact mana = get all cards from your yard in hand (multiple times if need be).

There are very few realistic board situations which you can't get out of to win with these two cards in play.
Oathing the tyrant first is where you have the least chances to kill on first activation, because you have only your hand and board to play with, although anyone who played tyrant oath in the gush era knows there's plenty you can do with just that. With a tyrant in play, even if you don't win right away, you should have enough to buy time until your second activation and win from there.

The deck is extremely fun to play, although also quite demanding, due to the many available lines of play and choices.

Its main weaknesses compared to the original decks it is hybrided from are I think twofold :
- The mana base is less strong than in TPS. The need for colored mana and orchards makes you more sensitive to wasteland. To mitigate this, the deck plays 15 lands (compared to the 12-13 of original TPS), and the oath plan, if more mana demanding here than in a dragon oath, is still much less hungry than a regular TPS build. Magus of he moon still spells game (though nobody plays it these days).
- You need to play spells after resolving oath. Comparing it to dragon oath, with the latter once you activate, all you have to do is tap your dragons and keep your butt cheeks tight hoping your clock will be enough. Here, you will need to play spells after activating, meaning that if you slipped your oath through a counter wall "by chance" (n the first turn, or because of an opponent tapping out too hastily), you will hit the counter wall once you activate. This can hinder seriously your clock, and while you still have 2 other activations left and inherent card advantage coming with them, sometimes yes, you may lose you a game you'd have won with dragons.

I think it's important to understand that unlike most oath decks which use oath to dump a fatty, this deck most of the time uses oath as a tutor + graveyard filler, which fits in really well in the storm strategy. Oath->witness is essentially a tutor on the first X cards of your library, putting the others in your yard.

4. Sideboard

The maindeck here is geared towards the control matchup. The metagame being full of fish these days over here, the red splash for pyroclasm comes in handily, and also provides ancient grudge which is nice with oath. Tinker and sphinx can be boarded in from the sideboard to mitigate opposing graveyard hate and have a third game plan versus creatures. In a meta with less creatures, or with mostly bant as creatures it is possible not to splash R, run nature's claim, perish, and get another basic maindeck.
The deck sporting dark ritual, we have easy access to sadistic sacrament as a "kill" against control and oath.

Note that in the past I used to run an extra land in the sideboard and one less maindeck. I have chosen now to run the land maindeck, and take it out in matchups that do not do mana denial. In the case of this list, the island would typically get out of the deck post side in control or combo matchups.

5. Matchup analysis

While I have detailed stats and sideboard plans, I won't make this post 200 pages and will just post here a few comments:

- Tezz : control, as for TPS, is always a tense and difficult matchup in which victory can shift sides pretty quickly depending on your choices. Witness really shines here when comparing to "regular" oath as a card that would normally have been bad and suddenly becomes pretty good. The threat density is your bigger strength here, knowing when to throw each is key. Desire is as awesome as always in the matchup.

- Oath : (assuming control-iona-vault version). This can be very dumb as most oath mirrors are (looks who's got the most orchards). Or it can look like a tezz vs storm matchup. Post side, both players take out 3 oaths and it looks even more like a tezz vs storm matchup, only this time you also have the 2 sacraments as extra kills and game plans.

- Fish : (assuming selkie-qasali-denial bant). Oath makes us much stronger against the general denial approach, however this is far from an easy matchup, mostly due to qasali pridemage. Even trygon can be a hassle paired with stifle. Post side, bring in 3 pyroclasm, pyroblast and tinker, and life suddenly has become much easier.

- MUD : I tested originally a list with only 2 witnesses as targets. MUD makes the tyrant necessary, although in tests it has proven usefull and necessary in many other situations as well. The oath strategy has the inherent advantage here, being cheap and the opponenet relying on creatures to win. You even have the flexibility of a maindeck rebuild to reach critical turn TPS-style.

- Ichorid : you have a slightly better G1 against ichorid than most of the metagame, due to being able to race it. The fact that you can win on first oath activation, and the access to timetwister as a reset button, are our best chances here. Still in the 30-70 though, nothing magical. Post side, I have found that 5 hate cards were generally enough. The 2/1 beatdown route for him is generally too slow, so the game plan here is basically have 1 hate card resolve, then race. Witness -> hate has proved relevant multiple times.

- TPS/ANT : luckily the meta is not very nice with TPS these days, because this can be a pretty difficult matchup. The oath plan will often be too slow, and our disruption package is a bit light in these matchups (particularly vs ANT).

6. Room for improvement and alternate choices

Suggestions that have been made and should at least be worth testing :
- Depending on the meta, desire, which is mostly there for the control matchup, may not have its place maindeck. It probably would in the US, however the european meta is infested with tezzeret destruction decks, and control tends to be much less represented, at least in top8s. Getting desire out would probably mean taking out rebuild too, since we have tyrant as a bounce engine and rebuild probably doesn't carry its weight anymore without its storm enabler role. The best candidate for these slots is not completely clear though, I would probably test impulse first, then maybe extra disruption slots (spell pierce ?). Note though those cards must be U to be able to rely on force and misdirection.
- As noted above, not splashing R and keeping a pure BUG version with 1 more trop or 1 more basic is definitely an option.
- Some consider bargain too expansive without the cabal rituals, and have replaced it with grim tutor. I personally wouldn't go without it.
- There could be alternatives to the chosen disruption package 4 force 2 misdi 2 duress 2 bounce. Spell pierce is probably worth testing, but again any blue card out should be replaced by another blue card.
- Someone suggested playing with just 1 witness. I find more comfortable playing with 2, and running only 1 would seem like unnecessary risk to me, considering the hardcastability and relevant ability of witness.

7. Common questions and critics

After about 12 pages of discussions in the french forums, here are the most common / relevant comments received.

- Your deck looks like a bad TPS and a bad oath.

Well that's not exactly the critic I get, it is more along the lines of "the storm plan seems to be too much disturbed with all the oath jank in the middle and doesn't seem like a really solid alternative to the oath route".

I generally answer by suggesting to look at what's in and out compared with TPS (using a regular smenenen list).

Out :
- tinker, jar, colossus, 2 duress, imperial seal, grim tutor, 2 cabal ritual, mana vault
In :
- 4 oaths, 2 witnesses, 1 tyrant, 1 misdi, 2 lands

The main TPS engines (ywill, necro, bargain) are all still there as well as the 3 main enablers (gifts, twister, desire) and the 2 multifunction enablers (rebuild and chain of vapor). You only lose jar as an engine. Imperial seal and grim tutor are essentially tutors that let you play the card you tutored for the next turn, which is very similar to what oath does in this deck.
Drawing jar, colossus or tinker while comboing isn't much better than drawing an oath (yeah tinker->lotus can be relevant sometimes, but I wouldn't consider it a consistant storm enabler). Witnesses are pretty decent setup cards before comboing, immune to spell pierce, and good chump blockers.
Mana vault was deemed too unreliable in a null-rod infested environement.
Finally the real things that you lose are the 2 cabal rituals and 2 duress (1 of which is replaced by a misdi for upping the U count). Sure these can be very relevant while comboing, however they are definitely not necessary pieces, and what the oath plans offers seems to me definitely worth the loss.

The situation where their loss is the most relevant is when resolving an early necropotence. With TPS you can often be very aggressive with necropotence, setting up an instant win next turn. Here in most cases you have to play necropotence more conservatively. But if you look at things objectively, necropotence doesn't have to win you the game next turn. It has to win you the game. It does so very well in this deck too, even if it sometimes takes a couple more turns than in traditional TPS.

- I tested your deck, oathed a witness as the 3rd card and had to regrowth a land, it sucks.

Most of the time, you'll have something broken to get back with witness, or a tutor to get that broken stuff. Most of the time it will win you the game.
Sometimes, you'll flip the witness very early. Well, regrowthing a force or a brainstorm isn't too shabby waiting for the next activation. If your graveyard is completely empty, it generally means you're very early in the game and went orchard-oath turn 1 or something. If that's the case, well maybe you'll still win after the 2d or 3rd activation.

Otherwise, yeah shit happens. That's the moments where you think about those dragons. But then you also think about those dragons, about all the times you drew them, when you hardcast a witness returning that ancestral to your hand.
When you actually lose a game to a poor oath->witness, think big picture and how many games they turned out better than their conterparts. I personnaly think the benefits outweight the cost. You don't have to .

- I find it bothering not to know which creature is going to be flipped first.

Yep, there's some randomness in that, that's true. You'll often find yourself hoping for witness and flipping tyrant, or the other way around. The games when you lose the next turn because you flipped the bad one, you'll curse me. But I think the flexibility of having both makes it a necessary evil.

- Your manabase seem shaky.

Well it isn't that bad, really. Oath being only 1G makes things possible with a manabase far less appealing than TPS's. The deck has posted many results in the french meta, which currently is over-filled with null rod and wasteland decks. As I said one extra land that used to be in the SB is here maindecked and SB-out-able.

- Aren't you sensitive to graveyard hate ?

Yes and no. Maindeck definitely, even if tyrant does wonders (witness + tyrant still works after a tormod effect ). But few people maindeck GY hate. Often you'll sideboard out one of the witnesses to bring in the tinker plan to mitigate the graveyard hate your opponents might bring in. You'll have strong GY-independant storm+oath+tinker plans while your opponent might draw irrelevant GY-hate cards.

8. Deck results

The top8s I'm aware of in the last months (all in France, in the hands of 4 different pilots) :

1st out of 58 players in Bourgoin Jallieu
1st out of 31 players in Paris
2d out of 18 players in Bourgoin Jallieu
3rd out of 34 players in Annecy
4rd out of 34 players in Annecy
6th out of 32 in Bourgoin Jallieu (invite-only 2009 french championship finals tournament)
8th out 24 in Bourgoin Jallieu


Thanks for reading, shoot .

Here are the top8 lists for the side event that occurred in parallel to the legacy finals.

Metagame (39 players) :

UBr Tezz : 3
Trinket control : 1
Painter : 1

Selkie : 4
DDM : 4
Goblins : 2
GWu aggro hate : 1
GWR aggro hate : 1
GWB aggro hate : 1
RW aggro hate : 1
BG aggro : 1
UBw fish : 1

Tyrant Oath : 2
Iona Oath : 2
Progenitus Oath : 1
Storm Oath : 1

TPS : 2
Elves : 1
Storm : 1
Food Chains Goblins : 1

5C Stax : 1
Stax monobrown : 1
R Stax : 1
MUD : 1

Ichorid : 2

Really weird : 1



1 JB Aymes (DDM)

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Wasteland
    1  Verdant Catacombs
    3  Swamp
    4  Bayou
    1  Marsh Flats
    3  Polluted Delta
    2  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Bloodghast
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Life from the Loam
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Thoughtseize
    3  Cabal Therapy
    4  Null Rod
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Darkblast
    3  Smallpox
    1  Raven's Crime
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Seal of Primordium

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Ravenous Trap
SB: 2  Tombstalker
SB: 1  Karakas
SB: 1  Oxidize
SB: 2  Seal of Primordium
SB: 3  Extirpate
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Sadistic Sacrament


2 Christophe Peyronnel (UBr Tezz)

// Lands
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Scalding Tarn
    4  Underground Sea
    2  Island
    2  Flooded Strand
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Voltaic Key
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Time Vault
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Tinker
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Red Elemental Blast
    1  Shattering Spree
    3  Spell Snare
    3  Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Shattering Spree
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 1  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 4  Mystic Remora


3 Gael Bailly maitre (GWu Aggro Hate)

// Lands
    3  Horizon Canopy
    2  Forest
    1  Plains
    2  Savannah
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    4  Windswept Heath
    1  Verdant Catacombs
    1  Misty Rainforest
    1  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    1  Aven Mindcensor
    2  Elvish Spirit Guide
    3  Gaddock Teeg
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    4  Tarmogoyf
    2  Vexing Shusher
    4  Noble Hierarch
    4  Cold-Eyed Selkie
    2  Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Ancestral Recall
    2  Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3  Pithing Needle



4 Romain Claperon (Tyrant Oath)

// Lands
    2  Island
    3  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    1  Tropical Island
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Volcanic Island
    4  Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
    2  Tidespout Tyrant

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Dark Ritual
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Krosan Reclamation
    4  Force of Will
    2  Mana Drain
    2  Deep Analysis
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Regrowth
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Intuition
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Regrowth
    2  Thoughtseize
    3  Opt
    1  Lat-Nam's Legacy (2)
    1  Muddle the Mixture
    1  Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Shattering Spree
SB: 2  Fire/Ice
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap
SB: 1  Misdirection



5 Sebastien Vicaire (TPS)

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Island
    2  Swamp
    2  Underground Sea
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
    1  Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Tinker
    1  Timetwister
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Rebuild
    1  Necropotence
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    4  Duress
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Force of Will
    2  Cabal Ritual
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Grim Tutor
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Ponder
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Misdirection

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Island
SB: 1  Swamp
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Engineered Explosives
SB: 3  Tombstalker
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap



6 Thomas Kleber (UBr Tezz)

// Lands
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Scalding Tarn
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Island
    1  Swamp
    2  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    1  Inkwell Leviathan
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
    1  Voltaic Key
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Time Vault
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Tinker
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 [BD] Brainstorm
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Darkblast
    2  Repeal
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Perish

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Mountain
SB: 1  Perish
SB: 1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind



7 Benoit Seveno (5C Stax)

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  City of Brass
    3  Gemstone Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
    1  Sundering Titan
    4  Goblin Welder
    1  Duplicant

// Spells
    4  Smokestack
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Tangle Wire
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Crop Rotation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Darkblast
    1  Ancient Grudge
    1  Intuition
    1  Balance
    1  Memory Jar
    4  Sphere of Resistance

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Jester's Cap
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Triskelion
SB: 1  Ensnaring Bridge



8 Julien Huguenin (Selkie)

// Lands
    2  Tropical Island
    3  Tundra
    1  Island
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Misty Rainforest
    1  Forest
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Noble Hierarch
    4  Cold-Eyed Selkie
    2  Trygon Predator
    4  Tarmogoyf
    3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Force of Will
    2  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Null Rod
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    2  Swords to Plowshares
    3  Spell Pierce
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Giant Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Tarmogoyf
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Serenity
SB: 3  Burrenton Forge-Tender

just a heads up for the list which posted #1 here :

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39094.0

It discards tarmogoyfs and meddlings to include ninjas and cursecatechers, and for and having seen the deck in action I must say it is really well worth consideration. The amount of draw realized by the deck is just plainly insane, allowing it to be even more disruptive and with 8* exalted the clock is still pretty decent even without tarmogoyfs (which can be boarded in in aggro mirrors).

Hey,
Saturday was the finals of the french vintage cup, an invitation-only tournament with the best players from the country (based on results of the previous year) competing for the title (and an alpha black lotus).

Top8 was :

1: Camille Fenet (Selkie Ninjas)
2: Benjamin Guillerm (Selkie)
3-4: Florian Delafosse (UBr Tezz), Alexi Catelain (Selkie)
5-8: Johnattan Chasane (Ichorid), Quentin Gouedard (Storm Oath), Thomas Kleber (UBr Tezz), Emanuel Dannenmaller (Iona Oath)


Metagame (28 players) :

UBr Tezz : 6
Selkie Fish : 5
DDM : 4 (BG bazaar-loam-bloodghast)
GW Aggro : 2
Ichorid : 2
5C Stax : 2
Oath Storm : 1
Oath Iona : 1
RWB Aggro hate : 1
RG Hate : 1
MUD : 1
Gob : 1
UR Fish : 1


The metagame was full of aggro decks and null rods, Selkie decks getting the best results and placing 3 in the top4.
I was playing the Storm-Oath hybrid build, a deck on which I've been working for a while, which is aimed at killing as often as possible with the first activation of oath. It does so by using E.Witness to recur time walk, YWill, or do tricks with tyrant, while removing the bad oath cards (mainly krosan reclamation and latnam's legacy), and mitigating the impact of drawing oath targets (witness being hardcastable and witness->brainstorm allowing to get tyrant in play from hand if needed), all this combined with a storm bombs shell (rituals, necro, bargain, desire, twister and of course ywill).
The main innovations introduced by zendikar were iona (in oath and ichorid), spell pierce (in control and fish), bloodghast (in a bazaar-loam deck, which although it didn't top8 saturday won the vintage side event of the legacy finals on sunday after winning another tournament last month) and ravenous trap (everywhere).


Top8 Lists :

1: Camille Fenet (Selkie Ninjas)

// Lands
    4  Tropical Island
    2  Tundra
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Windswept Heath
    2  Polluted Delta
    2  Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    4  Cold-Eyed Selkie
    4  Noble Hierarch
    4  Ninja of the Deep Hours
    3  Cursecatcher

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    3  Spell Snare
    4  Force of Will
    4  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Regrowth
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Null Rod
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4  Tarmogoyf
SB: 2  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1  Seal of Primordium
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Energy Flux
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares


2: Benjamin Guillerm (Selkie)

// Lands
    3  Tropical Island
    3  Tundra
    1  Island
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Forest
    2  Misty Rainforest
    3  Windswept Heath

// Creatures
    4  Noble Hierarch
    4  Cold-Eyed Selkie
    3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
    3  Trygon Predator
    2  Tarmogoyf
    3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Force of Will
    3  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    4  Null Rod
    1  Merchant Scroll
    2  Stifle
    1  Rebuild
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    2  Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Tarmogoyf
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 1  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1  Ravenous Trap


3-4: Florian Delafosse (UBr Tezz)

// Lands
    2  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Volcanic Island
    3  Scalding Tarn
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Island

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    1  Inkwell Leviathan
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
    1  Voltaic Key
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Time Vault
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Tinker
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 [BD] Brainstorm
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    3  Spell Pierce
    1  Rebuild
    1  Mana Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Ravenous Trap
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor



3-4: Alexi Catelain (Selkie)

// Lands
    3  Tropical Island
    3  Tundra
    1  Island
    1  Flooded Strand
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Misty Rainforest
    1  Forest

// Creatures
    4  Noble Hierarch
    3  Cold-Eyed Selkie
    3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
    3  Trygon Predator
    3  Tarmogoyf
    3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Force of Will
    3  Daze
    1  Misdirection
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    4  Null Rod
    1  Merchant Scroll
    3  Stifle
    1  Rebuild
    1  Hurkyl's Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Tarmogoyf
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Serenity
SB: 3  Burrenton Forge-Tender



5-8:Quentin Gouedard (Storm Oath)

// Lands
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Island
    1  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    1  Tidespout Tyrant
    2  Eternal Witness

// Spells
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    4  Force of Will
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Timetwister
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Necropotence
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Ponder
    1  Rebuild
    2  Duress
    2  Misdirection

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Ancient Grudge
SB: 3  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 3  Ravenous Trap
SB: 1  Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1  Pyroblast


5-8:Thomas Kleber (UBr Tezz)

// Lands
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Volcanic Island
    2  Scalding Tarn
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Island
    1  Swamp

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    1  Inkwell Leviathan
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
    1  Voltaic Key
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Time Vault
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Tinker
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 [BD] Brainstorm
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Rack and Ruin
    1  Darkblast
    2  Repeal
    1  Hurkyl's Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Mountain
SB: 2  Mindbreak Trap


5-8:Emanuel Dannenmaller (Iona Oath)

// Lands
    1  Island
    1  Misty Rainforest
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Volcanic Island
    2  Tropical Island
    2  Underground Sea
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    4  Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
    1  Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1  Painter's Servant

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Rebuild
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Lat-Nam's Legacy (2)
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Pyroblast
    1  Misdirection
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Ponder
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Deep Analysis
    2  Red Elemental Blast
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Grindstone
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Krosan Reclamation
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Ancient Grudge
    1  Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Karakas
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap
SB: 1  Tidespout Tyrant
SB: 1  Mountain
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin


5-8:Johnattan Chasane (Ichorid)

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    2  City of Brass
    2  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Ichorid
    4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    1  Angel of Despair
    1  Sphinx of Lost Truths
    1  Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Dread Return
    3  Unmask
    4  Leyline of the Void
    2  Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Ancient Grudge
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Emerald Charm
SB: 1  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Wispmare
SB: 1  Strip Mine
SB: 2  Reanimate
SB: 1  Darkblast

We have one such tournament in France scheduled for october, a 2 day event with top 32 vintage players and top 64 legacy players of the past year (And side events for players who didn't qualify).

Nice to see such great names and list.

<3 @ the shivan dragon .

I've been playing storm for about a year, and top8'ed at bom2 with it (alongside posting quite a few other tournmanets result. I was still playing (a different version but still) storm at bom 3, and I can answer your question very easily : mystic remora.
I went 5-3 (I had a bye) in facing 1 ichorid and all the rest was mana drain decks, losing to 3 remora decks.
There is basically no way that a TPS deck as they are designed today can win through remora, even less with commandeers entering the equation maindeck or post SB. I was myself playing an oath-tendrils build which tried to mitigate this factor (and in the meantime improve fish and stax matchups), but still the oath plan is too slow nowadays when facing vault/key combo and it's probably not the way to go facing remora. Maybe with 4 confidants...
Remora + vault/key are the factors that make TPS lose a matchup it was winning a year ago. A year ago, you'd win with TPS against a 4 drains / 4 fows deck, and would be fairly even against a 4 duress / 4 fows / drains deck, making control one of your favorite prays. But nowadays, control can win topdeck wars just as easily against tps thanks to time vault, and remora gives it an edge no tools in tps' box can fix.

First, it's two more mana.
Second, painter is a creature, and so sensitive to much more removal than a plain artefact.
Third, commonly played decks have maindeck strategies that hose this one (primarily, oath, with krosan/will or blessing).
Fourth, a very simple sideboard strategy (a random blessing) hoses this strategy. If painters were played in the same numbers as vault/key is, you'd see blessings flourish in SBs.


What about fow then ? Seriously, what I meant is that vault/key is what brought the existing control strategies to dominating "more" than they were before. There were DTs lists top8ing in the gush era too, there's no reason they'd disappear (although I'm curious as to why run the toa kill other the vault one). But vault/key allows these decks to win games that they would have lost before, upping the number of control decks that post results and attracting more people to the archetype.


What I meant was "in the vintage community", very few non-US players have SCG memberships. I can't tell for standard/extended/protour players, I'd guess there are probably a lot more of them, but I can tell that in the T1 community (which I know pretty well, and which is not the same people as the standard/extended community) very few in France have SCG memberships (the only one I know of being neonico who posted in this thread).

I'd like to make different points.

Thirst, from what I understand of the discussion (not having a scg account), I think Smennen is not looking at the right side of the problem, by focussing the discussion on drain and thirst when these cards are not really vital to the archetypes they support. Look at the BOM top8 with twice intuition+AK engines, or the number of lists that don't even pack 4 drains (the 3 left being replaced by 1 plus two counterspells/negates/whatever, would it really make a difference ?). The fact that these cards are everywhere in control decks is because they remain the best options to take, but it doesn't mean replacing them with their slightly "not as great" counterparts would make the archetype less dominant.
The control archetype has always attracted a lot of players being, obviously, the one offering the most control on the game, but why is there so much more people playing it nowadays ? Not because of drains and thirsts which have been here forever. Because of vault/key. Vault/key gives control the ultimate kill, the one that doesn't give the opportunity to the opponent to do anything at all. Vault/key gives control a 4 colorless manas kill (even better as it's actuelly 2+1+1) that's tutorable with basically everything and more. Vault/key makes gift an instant kill card in control, and makes tinker, one of the stupidest cards in vintage, even more stupid. Vault/key allows control not to need splash a third color anymore like gift was in its time splashing red for recoup, making its manabase, one of the most common angles to fight the archetype, stronger than ever. It is because control got this kill that there is so much more people playing it.

It's not really surprising that Steve who advocated the return of vault in vintage (from oblivion whatever ) has trouble realizing this is the real problem and touching drain/thirst/whatever won't solve it.

Is Tezzeret dominating ? "Tezz" means nothing. there's remora tezz, AK tezz, thirst tezz, confidant tezz, tezz here, tezz there. What's dominating ? Vault/key. It is the common denominator of all "tezz" variants, and even non-tezz decks (shaymora being one, but vault/key is now appearing all over the place in tps or basically any deck with a good tutor support). No one can say "tezz" dominates because there's so many things behind this "name", but what's for sure is that vault/key dominates.

As I see it vault is the reason of multiple problems in this meta.
- In terms of deckbuilding, it drastically reduces the options available to control (or even combo) deckbuilders, making the building experience much less interesting. Why would one play magus of the future, or dream halls, when he can play tezzeret ? Why play mindslaver and control my opponent turn when i can prevent him from having another turn ? Why play drain tendrils, a deck with a complex storm kill that has trouble when facing graveyard hate or spheres, when I can replace the storm kill with a simple super-flexible 4 mana kill that is not sensitive to this type of hate ? The availability of vault/key limits so much the options and completely obliterates an enormous number of potential strategies because it is just plain better.
- In terms of deckbuilding for other strategies, vault/key also impacts the other decks dramatically. Basically every deck but combo has to gesticulate with their list to be able not to die instantly on vault/key, making their own strategy less potent and their other matchups worse. Is it bothering anyone else that basically no aggro strategy is played without null rod ?
- Finally, vault/key is boring and frustrating. It's boring to the player using it "hey, here's vault, let's tutor key, GG" and frustrating for the opponent who's not given the opportunity to react, the combo often leaving the feeling to both sides that the game win wasn't "deserved". Everyone got killed some time by a first turn tinker on colossus, a very frustrating experience indeed. Well vault/key  feels the same, but only worse, because you don't even get those two turns you had to find a solution for the big guy or win even faster. I'm personnally convinced that vault/key in the meta degrades the experience and fun of play for both the players running it and their opponents, making the overall experience of play vintage less interesting and entertaining.

I don't have a solution for the problem, somehow banning vault or re-errating it would seem like a step backwards, yet I can't help but think it would be good for vintage. I sometimes regret the gush meta even though flash was in it because apart from this matchup it was much more fun to play in than the current one.

We are many over here in France to beleive that unrestrictions are the way to go, and that unrestricting a number of non-blue cards would be a very interesting move for vintage magic in general (there are many candidates like crop rotation, entomb, fastbond, burning wish or even balance, but that's not the right place to discuss this).

As two final points :
- I find it sad that such articles which I'm sure are interesting and concern the vintage community as a whole (especially considering the fact that TMD is probably the reference forum for wizards/the dci regarding vintage) have restricted access (let's face it very few non-US players have SCG memberships).
- I find the few posters in this thread who posted comments on the innovation being all made in the US and the euros being basically a bunch of followers both laughable and just plain wrong. A lag of a few months between the euro meta and the US one ? Look again mate, even a few months later, they're still different, just because of that, they're *different*. The proxy/nonproxy environments are one of the reasons for this, the fact that the US community has evangelists and followers is another, but please don't say the innovation is all done in the US, because it makes you, and by extension this community as a whole look like scornful pretentious ***** (I'll leave the *s to your imagination).

I've been testing a KoboldsClamp list for like ages, and I've found it to have too many resilience problems to be competitive. My list (for reference) also runs 4 clamps and 4 glimpses as its main engines.
Apart from the problem already mentionned here of chalice, I've found that the deck has a lot of problems getting back from 1/2 disruptions spells as simple as duress/fow. So of course, if the opponent has neither of these spells, you can goldfish him turn 2 (my kobolds list actually has a decent turn 1 goldfish rate).
But what if you get your clamp duressed away, or fowed ? The same applies to glimpse, which even when it resolves does not have a success rate for comboing out as good as clamp's. Often you'll have to mull into a 6 cards hand to have either drawers in your first hand, and it'll be rare that you have 2 of them in your 7. Even when that happens, it's still possible your opponent has 2 disruptions too, and once your 2 good spells are done for, you're left in topdeck mode with a bunch of 1/1s.
Kobolds can at least afford maindeck xantids, while this list runs a grand total of 0 disruption maindeck.

Anyway, I have trouble seeing what this list has over a "traditional" kobolds-clamp such as the one listed above. It goldfishes faster, has more disruption, access to actually good spells like recall and tutors. Maybe Rich can you enlighten me ?
The only things kobolds seem to lack compared to this elves list is the beatdown mode, but I have trouble figuring what modern vintage deck can't outrace elvesbeatdown.deck, especially when it doesn't run wastes. Would you care telling, during your tests or with your experience of the deck, how often you win through actual 1/1 beatdown ?

So I know this top8'ed twice in a couple of weeks and kobolds have been nowhere to be seen for ages, but no one plays kobolds, and without any disrespect for other players in their meta, I have the feeling that a Turtenwald or a Shay could take any day an half-good legacy deck and top8 in an 18-players field vintage tournament.

means for instance you won't be able anymore to use welder on sensei's divining top, use top's draw ability in response, and still get the artifact back from the grave as you could before.

I actually play now with +1 badland -1 undergound.
As for redblasts and stuff, i guess we'll have to figure this out once today's big news got us a fresh new meta.
It is to be noted that this list isn't impacted by the latest B/R changes.

Hey guys,
Wanted your feedback and suggestions for improvements on this deck, which i have built and piloted to 11th place in a 200 people tournament in France last week end, losing to oath and painter, winning to merchant/drains * 2, oath*2, ichorid, and flash.

First of all a decklist.


I've been playing with deeznoughts for a while, then switched to a white splash instead of green with grunts. I like the deck but i find it lacks a combo finish to end the game quickly in suitations that are desperate or could become ricky.
The deck basically incorporates the draw engine of Sullivan Sollution (confidants + cutpurses), a toolbox trinket mage engine, and a painter package of 8 blasts + 2 grindstones for a combo finish.
The decks wins most of the time in beatdown mode, controlling the board with blasts and outdrawing the opponent via confidants/cutpurses. The grindstones are a nice alternate win .

Some notes on the card choices, skipping the obvious ones :

- Cutpurse. The idea is that confidant by itself is not enough as a draw engine for an aggro control deck. If it gets countered or you don't see him, you generally end up outdrawn and lose. Cutpurse is just awesome in a control/combo matchup. his only problem is he sucks in an aggro matchup, which pairing him with servants nicely solves by allowing for quick and dirty blocker removal (blasts). Everytime he connects, Cutpurse creates the CA of an ancestral recall. I realize it's not the same to have opponent discard and draw yourself, yet it is very rare to lose a game where cutpurse connects multiple times.

- Trinket+Toolbox. The toolbox is limited here to tormod and EE, with needle and spellbomb moved to the sideboard (leaving no answer to DSC maindeck). Without brainstorms, I like to pla 2 Senseis, and 2 Grindstones make the combo win happen more often without relying on the trinket tutoring.

- The disruption suite. 4 duress, and 8 blasts. Blasts are just awesome with painter. They allow you to force the way of a drawer in play, remove a blocker, get rid of annoyances (null rod, dreadnoughts etc.). Not much more to say about them, the deck is built to abuse them.

- Strips. 3 waste effects are there, more to get rid of bazaars and libraries than really to be meant as a mana disruption engine.

- No brainstorms. I tried a version with -1 top, -1 grindstone, -1 cutpurse, -1 blast, + 4 brainstorm, but it lacked the punch of this one. The thing is, unlike in control decks, there are very few cards that you don't wanna play in this deck and would want to get away with bs+fetch. no DSCs, storm cards, bounce cards or anything that would come up at a time not appropriate. Most of the time what you'll draw will be useful, making brainstorms mostly interesting to get an extra mana in the earl game or remove one in the late game. I prefer not to include them, although i would understand disagreement with this decision.

- No FOWs. I know they're good with paitner, but as long as he's not there, there's way not enough blue in the deck to support them, especially considering cutpurses will go out in a number of matchups.

- No basics lands. Cruci+waste is hardly palyed anymore, often even stax only features 1 crucible. Leaves magus of the moon, but he's not so much a problem for the deck, which has loads of artifacts and can get rid of the magus via painter+blast. Hence, no basics. Yeah.

Quick matchup analysis:
- Flash: probably the most difficult matchup, due to no FOWs. Means no turn 0 disruption, max 1 turn 1 disruption and 2 turn 2 disruptions, which is often not enough in the matchup. If you can survive the first turn, it probably means you got a confidant online (because no disruption + no confidant turn 1 generally means mulligan) and from there things can be good, with an accessible tormod as an extra disruption. Yet, probably the worse matchup for the deck, hence the 7 SB cards.
- Oath : 8 pyroblasts for tyrants (or for oath once painter is online), maindeck tormod and cutpurses make this a rather good matchup. The only problem is that you can't mill him until you have a tormod online or a blast for krosan.
- Ichorid : a reasonnable matchup G1, and a pretty good matchup G2/3s, thanks to the maindeck strips+tormod, and the 7 sideboard cards that provide a wide array of solutions, + the added effect of painter + blasts which can get rid of narcos or bazars.
- Drains/slaver/Tinker.deck: main problem here is DSC, for which you must board in the SB spellbomb. otherwise, the key here is to resolve a drawer. Control tends to suffer from an online confidant/cutpurse :p.
- Workshops : the question here is whether you can resolve a painter or not. If yes, you suddenly have access to 8 disenchants for R, which often is too much to deal with for shops. Without painter, proceed to G2 .
- Fish/Deeznought: you have a better draw engine in that you have the extra 3 cutpurses. The goal is to clear the way with blasts and have them connect a couple of times, from there things should roll to your advantage.
- Control Painter: not too sure about this matchup, I lack testing experience for it. Should be fun.
- Random. vs random.deck (taiga, goblins, aggro, suicide etc.), the main goal is to assemble the combo and take off. SB jittes help in aggro matchups thanks to your 14 creatures.


Looking forward to your suggestions on how to improve the pile .

I wrote them down as i did this, i will find this and add it to the first post. Can't do it until next monday though.


These are not mathematical, just rough numbers i extrapolated from what i'd seen.
I know there was only one non-tyrant oath (akroma/DSC).
The number of manaless ichorid vs mana'd was definitely above 90%.
Maybe if i re-took all the lists i'd find that flash/slivers got to 10%, but i'd be surprised if it was above this. Slivers were very present 3-6 months ago but in recent tournaments most build packed the reveillark kill.


Outperformed, or just less played than its counterpart. The instant/pact trigger kill is tempting, even consireding the extra sensitivity to tormod's crypt and other instant-speed gy hate.

100% of the us data is from the last 2 months, as well as 90% of the european data. The oldest tournament taken into account was late january.


those and a few more (magic-ville.com , tipo1.it ...) yes.


the us top8s were generally less varied than the european ones (i took a couple japanese which were completely different too) and featured mostly oath/flash/ichorid.
The spanish ones were similar to the us for the most present decks, italians were heavily workshop-ish (noticeably, a 150 people tournament last month in italy saw like 6 workshop decks in the top 16, two of them taking the first 2 spots), while german and french were quite varied.
But it happened very often to find a top 8 with 8 different decks )or close) among which the usual suspects.

Hey,

I have been lurking on these forums for, what, years and years, but this happens to be my first time posting.
What made me post is that in an attempt to get a good picture of the current vintage metagame, I have spent a couple of hours aggregating results from about 50 recent (2008) tournaments (16 US, 32 european, at least 25 players and 5 rounds w/ top8), and thought it would be interesting to share the results with others.
I have separated the results of each deck in top 2 and top 8 (includes the top 2), because I somewaht feel that top 2 is the most relevant to a deck's efficiency.

Probably many of the regular readers will only get confirmations from this, but I'm sure it can lead to interesting discussions.

First the results, than some remarks...

Global metagame:

Archetype	top 2	top 8	Notes about decks
Oath	18	49	in 99% tyrant/gushbond version
Flash	11	44	95% reveillark, some slivers
Ichorid	10	27	95% manaless unpow, 5% mana'd powered
Deeznought	7	20	icbm list most often, sometimes W splash w/ jotun instead of G, sometimes SS mix w/ cutpurse
MonoBrown Workshop	6	38	metalworker, tangle, karn, trisk etc.
Red Aggro Workshop	6	17	welder and magus
Long / TPS	4	13	grouped, "traditional" storm combo
Slaver	4	15	various versions, some including CotV
Gifts / Intuition	3	14	often intuition comes as a gift complement/replacement, with AK draw engine
Goblins	3	4	versions reaching top 2 include earwig squad
TTS	2	14	tendrils combo w/ gushbond, often 1-2 doomsday
Stax	2	12	"old school" w/ stax, crucible, welder etc.
UWFish	2	10	often unpow w/ null rod
Salvagers	2	9	most often w/ mindsencor and tinkolossus
Landstill	2	7	generally unpow w/ null rod
GAT	1	14	various numbers of driads, tarmos and/or psychatog
Drain Tendrils	1	11	often draw w/ intuition+ak, tinkolossus, difference from gifts=no red splash/recoup
MaskNought	1	8	"darkillusions"
RGBeats	1	6	often unpow
UG Fish	1	4	fish+tarmo, sometimes threshold often unpow
GW "Fish"	1	3	mindcensor, teeg, swords etc. sometimes splash black confidant duress
MonoU	1	2	win via tinkolossus or platz
RectorFlash	1	2	w/ form maindeck
RogueThief	1	2	earwig squad + grimoire thief fish
SS	0	4	sullivan solution (bob+cutpurse)
Belcher	0	3	belcher+empty
Random	0	6	the decks that didn't show up at least twice

US meta only (8 top decks only)

Archetype	top 2	top 8
Oath	7	16
Flash	6	26
Ichorid	5	12
TTS	2	7
Red Aggro Workshop	2	3
Goblins	2	2
Monobrown Workshop	1	9
Slaver	1	7

I think this gives a good idea, backed by real results (as opposed to personal convictions) of the current meta, and what decks to prepare against. Partially answers questions regarding what to expect in tournaments (although in the US local metas may vary).

I think we can extrapolate from this:
Tier 1 decks : oath, flash, ichorid
Tier 1.5/2 decks : deeznought, workshops, slaver (still posting good results regularly), etc...

Quick comments :

This is not to be read as a "best deck" ranking, since the number of decks played by archetype is not taken into consideration to normalize the results.

I think this shows how good the health of vintage currently is.  The meta is quite diverse with plenty of archetypes, and rogue decks are regularly posting good results. Seeing this list I don't think anyone should expect new restrictions anytime soon.

The meta is quite separated into decks that win very quickly (oath/flash/icho) and decks with intense disruption that put in the meantime a quick clock on the opponent (aggro workshops, deeznought). Pure control (slaver, gifts, bomberman, mana drain in general) is less represented than it used to be (probably outraced).

Unlike what some often claim, workshops are far from dead. Monobrown Workshop is the 3rd deck by the number of top 8s reported. However the traditional "stax" builds are indeed quite out of the game, and have left the place for quicker aggro builds. Metalworker seems to be a staple of the monobrown builds.

I was quite surprised at the number of decks posting results and featuring the intuition+AK draw engine.

Deeznought is the true "fish" deck of the moment, with intense disruption and efficient creatures. It features good matchups vs 2 of the top 3 decks (flash and ichorid), although it has more difficulties versus other tier 2 decks.

Ichorid is unpowered decks' king (this might seem irrelevant to US players, but often in europe tournaments feature specific rankings and prizes).

In the US, the meta is less diverse than in Europe. Oath, Ichorid and Flash are much more present than the other decks.

TTS w/ doomsday seems to be a deck on the rise, out of the rankings a few months ago and posting good results in recent tournaments.

That's it for now .