When you are running 4 lands that produces a hell lot of mana, why not run Fastbond and maybee even a couple of Exploration. That would also make it easier for you to win with a Recycle on the board.

And yes Tangleroot actually seems pretty good in this deck.

If you choose to run 4 xantid, 4 witness, 4 birds, X welders and maybee even multiple ranger - skullclamp would be so good, since you now(with eventual utility creatures)have like 20 clamp targets, it would give you a better draw engine than allmost everything else

I think that TnT was discussed along time ago(could'nt find the topic, i think it was to old) and as far as i remember the conclusion was that its ruined your mana base, and that survival was good enough as draw

When i was testing today(not this deck, but other decks)the guy i tested with had made this deck, but added skullclamp. It worked very good for him, skullclamp fits perfectly into this deck because he could clamp his stuff before welding them out, and clamp birds, squee and useless welders(it happens yes) to get more fuel. Also i dont think that the utility creatures are needed, rather add some more treats as f.x. volrath's shapeshifter.

Go Zherbus primer


And the report, it was awesome, well its really embarrasing to be a danish guy, but please we are not all non-powered sligh players ^^
But i would also like to defend Denmark, we have 2 groups of people, the people living in Jylland(i know this means nothing to you guys.. but whatever)allways playing full powered Tier 1 decks, testing alot and very active. Then we have a Sjællander group (this doesnt make anysense at all, but Sjælland is the island where Copenhagen is located, you got to know copenhagen) where a very small number of people play powered decks, 5-10 i think, alot of these get in T8 very often, because they play good powered decks. And the rest is playing budget version of powered decks, casual elf decks, sligh, suicide, fish, landstill and stuff like that(but they are still metagaming their sligh decks...). Then sometimes it happens that some from the Jylland group take the train to copenhagen(it cost about 80 $)to play, of course we only go there if there is a mox to play for or something like that. So sometimes you will see good decks in T8 and sometimes sligh, wether the Jylland group has bin there or not

to confirm that here is the results from a tournament played in Jylland

http://www.manapool.dk/nyheder.asp?id=331

And yeah as Royal Ass(!) says the non-proxied metagame's gets ignored here, even thought allmost all of the tourneys in Europe is non-proxied. I really got no clue about why the american tourneys are proxied when ours arent, but as far as i know it was something like: Bla Bla Bla Bla we get money to keep em sanctioned Bla Bla Bla Bla. And yeah i would really like proxy tournaments, not 10 but 5 proxy tournaments would be nice. Since it would create a more healthy metagame in Europe.

Uffff yeah and by the way Vintage rating rox ^^

/Rasmus Roar

In westen denmark, where i live, there is usually around 7-10 Workshop based decks, stax or workshop aggro. This means that the odds of not getting paired against a workshop deck are very small. This means that if you play TPS you should put even more anti artifact stuff into your deck. But i thought that it was common sense to run basics in TPS. TPS is U/B and doesnt need any other color of mana, and against workshop based deck you will have a hard time getting back from turn 1 trinisphere if all you lands are waste able, its also alot easier to kill you with a soft lock. They can both make 3sphere+crucible og 3sphere+smokestack

In Rozatta's list there is 1 NON blue or black spell, so why do you run 10 5-color lands instead of 4 fechtes, 2 island, 2 swamps and 2 sea. I dont think ruining your mana base for a wheel of fortune is a good idea

And i dont think xantid swarms are that important, when you got both 4 duress and 4 forces

My 30 Mana sources

4 Delta
2 Island
2 Swamps
2 Sea
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Petal
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Rituals
1 Tolarian academy
1 Chrome Mox
1 LED
3 ESG - Which are brilliant against workshop decks

Note i also play 2 hurkylls recall, 1 chain of vapor and 1 rebuild

This deck over TnT ? The problem with this deck is that it got 4 survival, and 4 welders as the only threats in the deck, the few artifact fatties come out very late, and the draw engine isnt better than so many others. I think that this deck is gonna have a hard time against Mono U, and combo, since it doesnt have any kind of disruption, except 4 forces(not even wastes)

This deck should more be compared to Meandeck titan, a deck that focuses on welding a titan in as fast as it can, while meandeck titan has a better draw engine, and a bit more disruption in 4 mana drain, 4 force of will and post SB some duress. Meandeck titan has a fewer number of 'real' threat it has more ways to protect them, and of course it has will like in tog, just wins the game.

I think that this deck has some potential, it just need more threats as f.x Juggers are just some beaters(maybee a madness set)

@Lightning Greaves

Its a dead card until you get the DSC into play, and then it doesnt matter because its an 11/11 Indestructable big fat stuffy thing that just wont go away, even if the opponent get rid of him the other one will come next turn. Stp+Bounce+Diabolic+Welder edict are the only cards that can take care of this huge monster, and they are all instant so i dont think it really matters

Cutting blessing might seem like a good idea, but DSC can be handled, and if you cant shuffle your graveyard back you can get into the situation where you deckrun. And blessing is still a cantrip, and shuffling back ancestral, walk and stuff like that and drawing a card for 1G is acceptable.

@Draw Engine

I (still) think that intuition, ak and deep analysis is the best draw engine, of course picthing collousos to a thirst is nice, but it wont generate as much card advantage. And playing ak in response to blessings trigger is really a nice thing ^^

If you play thirst and brainstorm you could even consider going down to 1 single DSC

Yeah like mike said there is alot of difference. I played Meandeck Titan at a tourney and did alot of pre testing. It outdraws allmost every other deck, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ak, 3 Intuition and 4 Thirst + The Blue and Black broken cards. But even if you would win in the long game i usually just drop welder>thirst/intuition>titan

And yes Titan is the aggro beatdown against every single deck it playes, its very rare when its best to sit back, draw a bunch of cards and have board control before winning. I mean control deck can do that, then its easier to play Mono U or something

Participation cost - About 11 $, yeah it was a very good tournament. I still wonder why some of the other european tournaments have booster's for price when its so easy to get enough money to have a mox for nr 1....

Everybody have their own thoughts about splashes into Mono U, but mono U is so good because it playes 4-4-4-4-4-4-4 and then a bunch of islands and blue sources, you wont have any spells you cant play because of screw, and mulligans are very rare when playing mono colored

Splashing....
Red - Reb's, RaR, Gorilla Shaman, Fire/ice
Black - Duress, Tutors, Will
White - Stp's, Balance
Green - Ehrm nvm

But still, f.x in dromas version you will get owned because you dont have the control element that Mono U has, he play 9 counters where Mono U playes 13, keeper has the same amount of brokness, and even more, and they play the same number of counters, and keeper has more post SB. Psychatog is also pretty easy to get rid of, not like morphling who will stay on the board until the opponent is dead or he's smashed by a darksteel colousos

First of all, its seems kind of hard to resolve an oath when you got no disruption or counter backup. You sure have alot of 'threats' in the draw 7, but because you dont play a real combo deck they arent as good as they normally are, so opponents really dont loose to a draw7 spell.

But if i where you, i would simply remove all creatures, and go combo with oath>krosan reclamation>yawgmoths will. Then you can also remove some of the wishes which will make room for more disruption and brainstorm nr. 3 and 4

Like you write yourself, this deck is going to have a tough fight against any combo deck. Since this isnt a real 'tendrils' deck, but more a 2-kind-of-combo deck, it will be near impossible to fight against the speed of real storm based combo decks/belcher/dragon and also the disruption they play.

And 2 collousos is enough, you dont need more post SB

/Rasmus Roar

Yes he does lose 1 life for each artifact going to the graveyard, triggered abilities of stuff thats in play, that trigger on something going to the graveyard triggers(like rotlung), if Xx things go to the graveyard at the same time you go back, just before they did and see if anything(f.x leaves play triggers) would trigger

In my never version i run mana leak instead of drain... of course because of land-mox-leak...

This has a good chance against Turn 1 trinisphere, because the deck play alot of basics along with fechtes. If you start you have leak or oath on 1st turn, and maybee post SB annul

No idea against slaver, havent tested it yet but i will soon ^^

Up2date list

4 Oath
2 DSC
2 Blessing

4 Brainstorm
4 Ak
3 Intuition
2 Cunning wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 Fact or Fict

4 Mana Leak
4 Force of will

4 Tropical
2 Volcanic
3 Fechtes
1 Loa
5 Island
3 Ochard
5 Moxen
1 Sol ring
1 Black lotus

SB

4 Reb
1 Naturalize
2 Oxi
1 Stifle
2 RaR
1 Plated Slagwurm
1 Lava Dart(NOER TECH ^^, well once got owned by him with exactly lava dart)
3 Annul

If the decks get very popular i want to fit in echoing truth, but i dont think its needed right now

You play 0 Basic's, which means that you will simply die to a turn 1 trinisphere, since you cant recover with playing basics og fechtes(you only have 2)

Crop rotation is random, when you dont play academy or loa
Others... tangle wire, scrying, deed, oxidize, extraction

You also play enlightned tutor but you dont play vampiric

You got 2 mana leak, 2 fire ice, 4 fow that you wanna picht, tinker, ancestral and walk and mystical are far to good to picht unless its REALLY needed

Mixing Xx good decks doesnt get you a deck that's even better, and witness-cabal theraphy isnt so good as you think. And if he can handle the 1(!) collousos you have you will be dead, since you cant reshuffle your witness's

We all know that you need some kind of draw engine

Intuition - AK
Ophedian
Thirst
Draw 7's

The only one that really fit into this is Intuition - Ak, because u dont play enough artifacts that u can really picht them, and draw 7 is for combo or decks that do something broken, and Ophedians just dont go along with Oath. You could also use scrying but i think the deck should be U/G/r to deal with Mono U... And as noer says the lava dart is quite techy, yes RaR are also ince but i think oxidize would be better in this deck.

Where i play(denmark, Jylland for those who know ^^) Mono U packs 4 Ophedian along with 4 AK instead of impulse, that makes your ak's less broken, and i cant find a non-ak draw engine that fits into U/G/r

So you get to mill the rest of the time + f.x 5-10 minutes or what the judge decide, and then its all about luck.... But i suppose this should be different from judge to judge, and against who you play against. On the other side it seems unfair that a judge can simply stop the game if he when he likes it, since the dragon player with infinite time will win, and everybody know this, it would be quite fair if he was going to win.... i think  :shock:

But wont the most players conceede if this scenario happens....

Berserk is as far as i know, in the deck because it makes dreadnoughts smack the opponent in one hit, also they are wannabe removal against smaller critters, and if really needed against exalted

and forces should really be maindeck, else you loose so much to f.x workshop aggro and combo decks, and decks that do some broken stuff turn 1

Player 1 Has 31 cards left in his library, no cards and in hand and his graveyard are removed, he also has 1 gaes blessing back in his library

Player 2 Has gone infinite with worldgorger dragon and animate dead, he has a deep analysis, and a Laquatus Ambassadør in his graveyard, he hasnt stop his loop, so basicly he has infinite mana, but need to choose a number

So now he chooses the number 10000000000000000000000000000 0000000 So he got that many blue mana in his mana pool. Does he need to mill Player 1's library until blessing is the last card left and then use deep, or can a judge or player see that Player 1 is going to loose at one time

Well i once asked this question to a Jesper Sther(a danish lvl 3 judge)but he didnt give me an answer i could use for anything, he said that u couldnt because.... well it didnt work

What do you need to do to prove that Player 2 is going to win, if not in the time then in one of the extra turns. We discussed this alot and most players couldnt see how Player 2 could be accused for staling, because he does something active all the time

I dont think regrowth should be played in this deck, since you mill your whole graveyard back into the library quite often, it will allmost never have any effect

With the Weldering in response to collousos you could add 1 krosan reclamation to shuffle the mox he target into your library so the DSC stays, then you shuffle the rest back with blessing

My Version 1.0

3 Intuition
4 Ak
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
2 Cunning wish

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of will

4 Oath
2 DSC
2 Blessing
1 Krosan Reclamation(ultra anti welder tech)

4 Tropical
3 Volcanic
3 Fechtes
1 Loa
4 Island
3 Ochard
5 Moxen
1 Sol ring
1 Black lotus

SB

4 Reb
1 Naturalize
2 Oxi
1 Stifle
2 RaR
1 Fire/Ice
4 Call of the Herd

Call of the Herd gets around chalice for 2, and i think they are better than morphling. Racks and Oxi's are against Stax, and Ws Aggro, stifle and naturalize and fire/ice are wish targets...

Rebs are very needed to beat mono U, and great in control mirror. You simply beat aggro up so FTK's and fire/ice's are not needed. Mono U with ak can go be a problem but else it looks quite good

Im not sure wether to to have f.x sundering titan or other SB oath targets, but DSC seems invincible

I think the DSC is absolutely the best of all.... cogs can just get blocked by the small 1/1 flyers that fish play, and because you dont play Blessing when you play cognivore, you will deckrun quite fast.

Welder is NO problem, since when you mill out a collousos and get a blessing you mill your graveyard back so they cant change collousos and a random mox placed there.

Target player shuffles up to three target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.Draw a card. If Gaea’s Blessing is put into your graveyard from your library, shuffle your graveyard into your library.

He can of course weld collousos away in response to blessings trigger(it does trigger.... i think) But your cunning wishes(which you should really play atleast a couple of)can fecht you answers to both chalice, and welder.

My own version is U/G/r, but when you play black instead of red you have 3/4 duress, and 4 forces to battle his chalice's

/Rasmus Roar

I play old school pyrostatic pillar SB, simply because its a I WIN card against Death Long and allmost i win against TPS. Long got 0 maindeck answers to it, soy they have to use a death wish to get an answer, then it should alredy be to late- Long can bounce both Trinisphere and CotV, but not pillar. TPS has a couple of chain of vapor but then again nothing else

Ive even tried them maindeck because there is simply so much combo around, especially TPS since it can beat stax even if they lay turn 1 trinisphere

My current TnT decklist

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
2 Solemn Simulacrum

4 Goblin Welder
4 Survival
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Memory jar

4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible

Sideboard

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Artifact Mutation
1 Triskelion
1 Platinium Angel
3 Metagame Slots, Crypts, RaR, trikes, rebs and stuff lime that

I Really like TnT and i'm happy its finally bin revieved, since stax has for a long time bin a better deck this simply blow the hell out of stax

/Rasmus Roar

Yeah original masticore is better.... but simply why not run the trisk alone, he doesnt require any mana to take down multiple beating goblins or irritating goblins, and everyone knows that machine gun is a wonderfull invention....

i ran 2 solemn along with 4 forest and 1 mountain, and no wheel, zealot and angel, against combo pillar is the bomb because TPS only have like 1 chain of vapor to handle it....

I think everyone agrees that the disruption should be 4 trinispheres and 3 crucibles

Sammy read living wish.... it fechtes lands 2(ever wondered why belcher playes it ?)

Why dont you play will.... every deck that can support 2B play this, simply because its the best card ever printed, you also miss time walk

Also try replacing chrome mox with mana crypt, you gain alot of life so it shouldnt be a problem

You should also put a viridian zealot in the sideboard, so u can handle smokestack or stuff life that

3 Reb, but no volcanic  :shock:

How important are chalice ? You could really need some SB naturalize or oxidize, duress and a single collousos against fish

/Rasmus Roar

Your spelling and grammar is simply inexcusable.  Speaking English is a requirement for posting on TheManaDrain.
-Kowal[/color]

i have thought about 2 flavor texts

1.
Sorry. My mind dosen't work today.

2.
Hmm it worked yesterday
       -Slobad Goblin Tinkerer

what do u think ?

and what about making it multicolored instead of white, then it would also fit into a kind of keeper decks
{W}{U}  or  {W}{W}{U}

4 cabal theraphy
3 duress
4 fiery temper

4 arrogant wurm
4 wild mongrel
4 basking rootwalla
4 roar of the wurm

3 anger
3 squee(YEAH squee)
1 wheel of fortune

5 moxen
1 sol ring
1 lotus
1 mana crypt
1 LED
4 taiga
4 wooded
1 bloodstrained mire
1 forest
3 badlands
3 bayou
4 bazaar

there is 10 things u can discard to, and in worst case u can play cabal theraphy targeting yourself, and the disruption help alot against many decks

i am pretty sure its the wording i use....
i asked a judge how he would word it and he said

"If an ability would trigger, instead it doesn't trigger"

but could i made it so it only stops some kind of triggered abilities, that would maybee make it less powerfull

Nr 1
~Name~
{W}{W}
Enchantment
During each players upkeep if a triggered ability would trigger, instead it doesnt

This also hurts stax/mud decks

or

Nr 2
~Name~
{W}{W}
Enchantment
If an ability would trigger during a main phase instead it doesnt

This one is good against rector tendrils/trix and against other combo decks

or

Nr 3
~Name~
{W}{W}
Enchantment
At end of each turn target opponent gains control of <THIS>
If a triggered ability your opponent controls would trigger during your turn, instead it doesnt

this really hurts stax/welder mud decks, when there smokestacks and tangle wires doesnt work on your opponent u are pretty fucked...

okay sry
when i edit the card shall i also edit the subject of my topic ?(topic name...)or shall it remain as the original one was ?

i dont think its that powerful, only in some crazy combos, but with the increased mana cost the card isnt too powerful..