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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 25, 2008, 04:54:09 pm
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Wow that list is absolutely terrible. In todays Vintage (even with the loss of our beloved BS etc.) it is just too slow. Here are a few glaring deficiencies:
Disrupting Scepter: I love the card but it is using resources (ie Mana) when you could be doing something more effective, it is also an easy target for Welder. Plows take care of Welder so that those tricks aren't even worthy of consideration. Treasure Trove: Without FoW how are you going to ensure it even hits the table. Game two Ichorid kills it easily since you will probably be tapped out from casting the damn thing. Game 2 I side in my Propogandas and extra 2 Moats. Disenchant: So many better options for this deck. If you'd like to justify this slanderous statement, then by all means feel free... 4xSTP: 2 is adequate. 4 of the best creature removal spell ever printed? Sounds about right to me. No Balance: Seriously? If you will read what I said above I acknowladged this as an oversight and will replace a Flooded Strand with this. Serra Angel: Maybe I can't read very well and you actually typed a different creature. She plays offense + defense at the same time, flies, and costs a very reasonable 5 for all this. No Will: Come on!!! This is a joke right? sigh... why do I feel like I'm repeating myself Moat: Tabernacle will be so much easier, and you don't lose a turn, if you play the countermagic right. Doesn't stop Ichord like Moat does. (ps. - sigh...) Shall I go on. The theory behind the Deck is good for the upcoming shift in the format, but speed kills and this deck is just a bump in the road right now. Try making relevant upgrades that can make this deck faster and smoother and you will get a better reception with it. The wheel has turned, and all that is old is new again. The time has come for The Deck's return to ascendensy. The time has come. -> (masterK) <- |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 25, 2008, 04:47:16 pm
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Explain to me why this is "the most powerful deck" when it runs a pile of disenchants and disrupting scepters, instead of Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar or any number of other busted cards? Perhaps it WAS the most powerful deck in its time, but it certainly isn't now and it definitely isn't in this form. Its all about the deck as a whole. First off, Tinker is card disadvantage and therefore religiously to be avoided. I feel I was very clear on this point. Second off, Yawgmoth's Won't doesn't do jack about Ichorid like Twister does. These 2 cards don't play well together so it's either one or the other. Workshop only works for artifacts, and this is not an artifact-heavy deck (although powering down a turn one scepter is very, very tempting... I will look into this possibility more at a later date). Bazaar means your playing graveyard heavy strategy... Again, this is what Twister kicks in the balls and why you can't play it yourself. Your counterpoint regarding Force of Will is still misguided. Yes, it does not net you card advantage, but at some point you must consider the alternatives. Everything in this game is a trade-off, whether it is cards for life, life for resources, cards for tempo, etc., and not losing the game is much more important than gaining +1 card. If you think that the environment is slow enough to run Disrupting Scepter, you should also take into account that you can also hard cast Force of Will. Everything is a trade off, but that's not the kind of tradeoff The Deck was made to capitalize on. You are correct about AK + Intuition being vulnerable to graveyard hate, but there are a ton of other options for draw engines that are more efficient than Treasure Trove and that was my point. Thank you for acknowledging my point. Timetwister is not a viable game plan against an Ichorid deck. Perhaps if your deck was able to cast Timetwister and then combo off it might be, but your win condition is so slow that Ichorid could easily crush you before you win the game. Twister, Walk, tutor for Twister, Moat, GG Ichorid little buddy What flexibility does Braingeyser offer you that outweighs the fact that it can fall victim to Misdirection? Your deck runs Timetwister, has no way to generate a tremendous amount of mana, and you won't kill your opponent with it. Give me a solid reason why Mind Spring isn't just better? I'm not perfect, so if I've missed something here let me know and I will cede this point. Flexability -> (masterK) <- |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 23, 2008, 04:57:36 pm
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9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least. There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion. Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage". It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells.  I would turn good spells into hymn to tourach ALL DAY. Try that enough times and soon your opponent will have 3 cards in hand while you have none. I don't like them odds, pardah. -> (masterK) <- |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 22, 2008, 09:29:20 pm
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Wow. I have lots to say about this deck...
1) Why is there no Balance? Not only is it the most powerful white card ever printed, it allows you to setup additional insane plays with the Zuran Orb you're running (which isn't necessary anyway). Good call... I believe Balance should be fit in there somewhere... Perhaps for a Flooded Strand? 2) Disrupting Scepter is so past it's day in usefulness, it's not even close to funny. Mind Twist is unrestricted now, so even additional copies of that would be more useful than a 6 mana investment for them to discard a card of their choice. Yes, the old school "theory" from The Deck years ago would warrant a permanent source of card advantage such as the stick; however, it makes no sense in the current environment. Could you elaborate on "why it makes no sense in the current environment"? What, exactly (pray tell) is this current environment of which you speak? There's really no established metagame to my knowledge after the wonderful shakeup that Wizards handed down from yon high. However, we can infer that combo has been slowed to the extent (no more flash, brainstorm, or scroll) that The Stick will lock that ass down and make them beg for mercy from daddy Wiseman. 3) Mind Spring is flat out better than Braingeyser because it can't be Misdirected (and I'm sure you won't be killing someone with Braingeyser). I like the flexiblity that Geyser offers, but I can see where (your somewhat misguided) view might come from. I don't care so much about my opponent playing Mis-D when they're staring at it in their hand as Scepter comes down and makes it appear very foolish indeed. 4) As people stated already, Treasure Trove is not worth the investment. Even I have run this card in the past, but when I did I was running Academy and Mind Over Matter to cycle through my entire deck if I needed to or generate mana - and that was six to eight years ago. Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition + AK, or any number of newer draw engines would net you better card to resource quality than sinking mana into TT, not to mention the other synergies that such draw engines provide coincidentally. These "synergies" you refer to are merely cute tricks (IMHO). Treasure Trove is reliable in the face of things like graveyard removal which Intuition + AK is vulnerable to. We will be seeing a massive resurgence in gy removal do to Ichorid's ascendancy. I've never liked Thirst as it nets you +1 card advantage at best. 5) No "Yawgmoth's Will because of Twister" is ridiculous! Even if you HAD to run Timetwister in your deck, this doesn't mean you don't run one of the most broken cards in history in your deck, nor does it mean you cast your Timetwister when you can lock the game up with Will if you have it. Yawgmoth's Will don't stop Ichorid cold (sure to be one of the top decks). Timetwister gets their heads a-spinnin with all the reshuffling and it keeps their graveyard spotless clean as a babies bottom. 6) Since there aren't many enchantments you need to worry about in this metagame, you might as well run Ancient Grudge instead of Disenchant. I hear two-for-ones are quite, especially since you already support a 5-color manabase. At the very least, you could drop two Disenchant for two Ancient Grudge. The 5-color manabase leans heavily towards white and blue, which is why disenchant is a better fit. Plus it is more flexible. The flashback of Ancient Grudge doesn't really come into play with all the Twistering I expect to be doing (multiple times each game). 7) If you have Wastelands and fetchlands, it would fall well within "The Deck" theory of incremental card advantage to run a Crucible of Worlds. I like Dwarven Miner for this purpose, but your point is noted. 9) A control deck with no Force of Will seems misguided to say the least. There are still enough combo decks and "I win" cards in the format that warrant its inclusion. Force of Will is not in alignment with the golden rule which around here we like to call "Card Advantage". It's like giving your opponent a Hymn to tourach which always hits one of your counterspells. 10) Time Walk is more than just "take another turn." It effectively reads, "play land and mox turn one, take another turn. Make your land drop, and get UU online so you can cast countermagic and not lose the game." You can't rely on it first turn so I don't think this is a valid consideration. It's more like, "yeah, I get to untap my lands and draw a card, mmmmmkay". There's so much more to mention and talk about, but that should provide you with a decent bit of information to think about at the least. Every once in awhile it's nice to take a look at past strategies and update them to determine if they are viable in a new metagame; however, it seems as if you've just taken the old skeleton from 10 years ago and added a few new cards without compensating for how the environment has really changed.
I thank you for your input. -> (masterK) <- |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 22, 2008, 09:09:20 pm
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Going back on topic, is there a reason to prefer a strategy like The Deck instead of CS? Both are control decks aimed to beat other control decks, but CS has the ability to just win with Tinker or Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder. Do people just hold onto The Deck because of nostalgia or because they think White might not suck?
People play The Deck because it is the most powerful yet flexible deck ever devised. It has the abilities to beat any deck when in the hands of a masterful player. This is very familiar ground and Rakso has covered it all before in his excellent series of articles. |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 21, 2008, 03:31:18 pm
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Swords to Plowshares is pretty terrible against modern aggro decks. I doubt you want 6 anti-aggro cards in the main though. Que? StP, terrible against modern aggro? Are you serious? 1 mana to get rid of anything that's played today sounds pretty nice to me... Modern control decks don't gain incremental advantage that Scepter can shut down. Tapping down main phase with Scepter seems like it is asking for them to pitch excess lands that Brainstorm won't let them put back and then get buried under Intuition->AK or Thirst for Knowledge. Plus, invested CA that doesn't beat down hasn't been good in years. I don't know why you think you need this sort of effect; I feel like Duress or Thoughtseize might just be straight up better because you can take the card that matters. A couple of points as I feel your post here is filled with a lot of misinformation and/or lack of understanding of how The Deck functions. Firstly, the Brainstorm argument you raised is invalid (as I addressed in my original post) because Brainstorm, now restricted, can't be relied upon. Secondly, Duress and Thoughtseize don't accord card advantage like the Scepter does and therefore are not in accordance with the basic principles of The Deck. Zuran Orb: Why do you think you need a lifegain effect? If you want one, it's Pulse of the Fields, but I'm not convinced you want one. Modern aggro can put out men faster than you can gain life. Versus beatdown decks I want to develop my board in a hurry and win the game, not put myself behind on lands. The Zorb is mostly anti-tendrils nowadays, as well as after you've stabilized with a Moat so that they don't burn/PoP you out. You want Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will. These are both pretty essential cards. For one thing, Time Walk turns land and mox into Drain mana, and Will lets you just win. The Will versus 2 Blessing argument ended infinite years ago; Will is it. Yawg's will is an anti-combo with Twister, which is essential to The Deck's longterm strategy. Time Walk isn't really that good as in essence its just a cantrip that lets you untap your lands in this deck (if you used the attack phase it might be different)... 2 Serra Angel: Really? Are you joking? Not only are there a million better candidates (like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice), but Tinker/Colossus is much faster and probably straight up better. Plus some of those cards are at least decent drain sinks. No offense, but I can't believe what I'm reading when someone suggests utter jank (again, no offense but this is really my opinion) like Decree of Justice. Tinker Collosus is bad because it's card disadvantage (see primers such as Rakso's primer on The Deck). Treasure Trove? You meant Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying, right? You can't even drain into Trove effectively. Trove is most excellent at the long control game where The Deck specializes. Where are the fetchlands? City of Brass is antiquated. 4 Flooded Strands are in the list... (I think you overlooked them) Regrowth would be fine if you had a bomb to get back with it. As it is, it's going to be the 5th Swords to Plowshares or something equally terrible. Also, if you think Regrowth is good.... Will is 5 Regrowths. Seriously, run Will. Ancestral Recall? Timetwister? Treasure Trove? These are all "bombs" (as you call them) which Regrowth gives you another shot at using. If you want to explore Keeper, read some of the things Zherbus has done recently. But honestly, why Keeper? I feel it is the most flexible, powerful deck in the hands of an experienced player.... Oh, P.S., you're never going to beat Ichorid game 1. You simply aren't equipped to race them, and Timetwister is a Time Walk at best. You might draw them into Bazaar #2, which would be game over.
Please see my quotes above for rebuttal of these arguments (which I am sorry seem to stem from a lack of experience playing against Ichorid). -> (masterK) <- |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 21, 2008, 03:18:57 pm
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Point 2: Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm. This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent. I.e, they can't hide their crucial cards in response to the Twist/Amnesia with a brainstorm with anywhere near the consistency that they used to. Furthermore they are overall much slower, which gives you time to drop a Scepter and work their hand over. I.e., with the current environment being much slower, you can play the grinding slow-incremental card advantage game which The Deck specializes in. Have you played against storm combo? It hasn't slowed down very much. It still has a turn 2-3 kill on average. I don't doubt you so much but I think you're talking about goldfishing... With the countermagic and other disruption (Mind twist, disenchant) we are now packing in The Deck I highly doubt this is a stable kill average. Point 4: Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid. I feel this requires no further explanation I feel that needs a heckof a lot more explanation. How is a single twister going to kill Ichorid? First you need to find your twister. And then it needs to be cast before ichorid therapies away your hand. And then if you do cast it, so what? They just start bazaaring again.[/qoute] Well, they can Bazaar once, but they won't be able to dredge (i.e., develop their board position). Then you drop some moxen/land, tutor for the regrowth, regrow the Twister, and repeat. You will be twistering so much that they can't hope for any kind of Stable development. Moat will eventually come down and end the game (this is of course all pre-board). Point 5: Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks. It is essential to be able to hit artifacts early against Stacks; 4 + the 2 tutors makes this almost a no-brainer. It also smokes Oath like a punk and allows you to play the control game while they are still floundering in the realm of aggro-combo, and losing badly. Stax will probably be trying to play Chalice@2 against you. Do you really want to be playing artifact removal that costs 2? Let them try to get Chalice at 2 out. 4cc sounds like Drain -> Mindtwist from where I'm sittin', pardner. You also have essentially no draw engine and woudl get completely outdrawn by Slaver or Oath. Disenchants and Swords don't matter when your opponent has outdrawn you and can counter your answers.
Have you played this deck against modern type 1 decks?
No draw engine?? What is the Trove to you? I have done testing, yes. |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 21, 2008, 03:11:41 pm
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Treasure Trove dies to REB; wouldn't you rather run Jayemdae?
Well you raise a valid point I suppose, but on the whole a treasure trove (when dropped late game) more than makes up for its disadvantages to Tome. Especially since you should have Sceptered away their REB's by then. |
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Eternal Formats / Creative / The Deck post-restriction *updated/expanded post*
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on: June 20, 2008, 07:38:48 pm
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*Note: I have expanded on the deck analysis and included more information as requested.*
The recent round of restrictions (or, perhaps I should say "slaughterhouse massacre") has opened the door to plenty of guesswork about what might be the new dominant decks... It was speculated that Stacks and Ichorid would be the new powerhouses, or perhaps a rogue deck of yore. Brings a wistful tear to my eye of many victories earned against impossible odds... ah, yes... But enough of that, back to the topic at hand.
I will maintain that the time is ripe for a return of The Deck in its original incarnation (more-or-less).
List of Wiseman's original list (1996 era) is provided below for reference:
1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mirror Universe
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Amnesia
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Timetwister
1 Timewalk
1 Recall
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
2 Moat
2 Serra Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 City of Brass
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Plains
3 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Using this list as a basis, we will see that already it is metagamed against the field to a large degree.
Point 1: Copious amounts of basic lands. This list runs 7 basics already; with the ever-present threat of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon this is a significant threat. It is also excellent against Stacks. This, can of course be updated using the new Onslaught fetchlands to diversify the mana base while at the same time retaining all the relavant advantages of the original high basics count. This allows you to lead with a basic or a fetchland versus Stacks and thereby you doth ramp your mana up in a way that prevents them from locking you down (with Spheres or Crucibles + Wasteland). Not a pretty picture, and not a strong place to be.
Point 2: Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm. This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent. I.e, they can't hide their crucial cards in response to the Twist/Amnesia with a brainstorm with anywhere near the consistency that they used to. Furthermore they are overall much slower, which gives you time to drop a Scepter and work their hand over. I.e., with the current environment being much slower, you can play the grinding slow-incremental card advantage game which The Deck specializes in.
Point 3: With the loss of fast combo, we can definately expect a return of aggro. The 4 Plowshares and 2 Moats make an excellent choice against this. It has been speculated by many that Sly will make a strong return in the new environment; plow and moat are always good against such decks.
Point 4: Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid. I feel this requires no further explanation.
Point 5: Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks. It is essential to be able to hit artifacts early against Stacks; 4 + the 2 tutors makes this almost a no-brainer. It also smokes Oath like a punk and allows you to play the control game while they are still floundering in the realm of aggro-combo, and losing badly.
Yet, allowances must be made for the times. To modernize The Deck whilst retaining its essential advantages I would propose the following:
1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Treasure Trove (Tome replacement; stronger)
1 Zuran Orb (better than Mirror Universe post 6th-edition rules; great against Sly/Goblins)
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist (better than Amnesia)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Timetwister
1 Vampiric Tutor (tutoring > take an extra turn)
1 Mystical Tutor (tutoring > bad Yawg's Will; no Yawg's Will because of Twister)
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast (metagame choice; could be Leyline or Tormod's Crypt)
4 Disenchant
2 Moat
2 Serra Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
The Sideboard would, of course, be completely metagame dependent.
I welcome your thoughts!
-> (masterK) <-
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Eternal Formats / Creative / "The Deck" post restriction
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on: June 15, 2008, 03:54:03 pm
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The recent round of restrictions (or, perhaps I should say "slaughterhouse massacre") has opened the door to plenty of guesswork about what might be the new dominant decks... It was speculated that Stacks and Ichorid would be the new powerhouses, or perhaps a rogue deck of yore. Brings a wistful tear to my eye of many victories earned against impossible odds... ah, yes... But enough of that, back to the topic at hand.
I will maintain that the time is ripe for a return of The Deck in its original incarnation (more-or-less).
List of Wiseman's original list (1996 era) is provided below for reference:
1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mirror Universe
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Amnesia
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Timetwister
1 Timewalk
1 Recall
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
2 Moat
2 Serra Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 City of Brass
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Plains
3 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Using this list as a basis, we will see that already it is metagamed against the field to a large degree.
Point 1: Copious amounts of basic lands. This list runs 7 basics already; with the ever-present threat of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon this is a significant threat. It is also excellent against Stacks.
Point 2: Combo has slowed significantly with the loss of Brainstorm. This means that the traditional both control, and yes, combo killers of Disrupting Scepter and Amnesia/Mindtwist are now extremely potent.
Point 3: With the loss of fast combo, we can definately expect a return of aggro. The 4 Plowshares and 2 Moats make an excellent choice against this.
Point 4: Maindeck Timetwister, combined with Regrowth, drive the nail into the coffin of Ichorid.
Point 5: Four maindeck disenchant effects make for yet more potent offense against Stacks.
Yet, allowances must be made for the times. To modernize The Deck whilst retaining its essential advantages I would propose the following:
1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Treasure Trove (Tome replacement; stronger)
1 Zuran Orb (better than Mirror Universe post 6th-edition rules)
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist (better than Amnesia)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
1 Timetwister
1 Vampiric Tutor (tutoring > take an extra turn)
1 Mystical Tutor (tutoring > bad Yawg's Will; no Yawg's Will because of Twister)
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast (metagame choice; could be Leyline or Tormod's Crypt)
4 Disenchant
2 Moat
2 Serra Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
The Sideboard would, of course, be completely metagame dependent.
I welcome your thoughts!
-> (masterK) <-
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