This isn't just to bump this thread.  I just wanted to thank everyone for their help.  This thread had pointed me in the right direction to start to find success in a Legacy version of this deck found at the link above.  I learned a lot here.  Especially Delha's style of deck development.  Stay focused, and test ideas out. 

Many recommendations made the cut, and the philosophies are certainly carried through the list. 

I gave credit to this thread as it is due.

Thank you all again for pointing me in the right direction, and hope to see ya in a Legacy tourney.

Fraggle. 

Hey I wanted to say I have been testing the suggestions above, and really appreciate the feedback.

I have little more to report on, but the original list was killed by MUD prison, and I imagine it would against dredge too.

Some tech that I like from other Pox decks that I have seen was the use of Funeral Charm.  It can function like a discard (and gets better in that function late game when your opponent is down to 1 or 2 cards, and they are riding the pain train of the rack) and it is good tech on Bob's Tinkerer and the alike.

I'm testing Ankh of Mishra.  I think kit was mentioned in the Death's Shadow's thread, but since you do not have to run fetch it seems pretty solid.  It also helps agains a pesky Crucible floating out there.  edit: 5 damage from a successful fetch Yee-ouch!

I'll keep you posted when I find a formula that does better against Yard jank.  I know 4 Leyline of the Void might do it.

Thanks for the feedback.  I'll test these, and see how things go.

I originally had Dark Ritual in the deck and cut it.  This isn't an explosive "combo-ish" deck, it is a methodical attack on your opponents hand.  The Dark Ritual (although presented some new plays) often just reduced my card in hand count and exposed some of my juicier cards to Pox effects.  If I could have waited a turn I'd be in better card in hand position to withstand my own Poxing.  

I think I'd rather test with Sadistic Sacrament then Dark Ritual ...top deck tutors have been giving me issues with vault / key.

I can definitely see the tutors helping.  I was testing this primarily as a Legacy deck, and didn't swap them in.

I'd consider running both Night's Whisper & Sign in Blood over Confidant because of the dis-synergy with Confidant & Pox, but I will test both.

Strip set may help, and I have tested it but if you are Pox-ing correctly they are not needed.

Thanks again, and I'll keep plugging away at it!

Edit: Adding a light blue splash my prove to be extremely useful.  If the deck is functioning correctly you are looking to lock the game buy eliminating your opponents hand.

Adding a few Chain of Vapor, and maybe 2 Zur's Weirding could quickly hard lock the game.  ...but it may not prove to be necessary, as the soft lock (at least initially) seems to be doing the trick.

 

I think for each of us it is just going to come down to play style.


It performed the same function very well for me at the time of Alliances in a Mirror Universe deck, back when that still worked.  Granted it's a very different meta.  

...Remember it is instant speed life loss no matter when you cast it.  ...I'm not a rules guru, but couldn't you do it in response of him not being blocked?

Although I think shock duals would be funny, I don't think it's practical.  Not only do you have to get below 13 for Death's Shadow to not die upon casting, you ideally have to get your opponent into Death's Shadows Strike range.  That would be somewhere in the 12 or below range.  So Pox, or Pox-like cards could be very effective.

Also, the black "hand peek" discards are almost a must. (Duress, IoK, Thoughtseize)  It will let you know when it's safe to go for it.

edit:  Here is a deck list that showcases a quick Death's Shadow

4   Plunge into Darkness
4   Dark Ritual
4   Duress
4   Daze
1   Ancestral
1   Time Walk
2   Lim-Dul's Vault
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Fastbond
4   Gush
1   Denomic Tutor
4   Death's Shadow
4   Force of Will
2   Chain of Vapor
1   Tinker
1   Inkwell Leviathan
1   Time Vault
1   Voltaic Key
   
2   Flooded Strand
4   Polluted Delta
4   Underground Sea
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
2   Tropical Island
4   Watery Grave


 

Although not fully defined, nor tested this deck fishes rather well.  If I'm playing correctly (which i'm sure there are some to many mistakes) it plows through a Vintage Tezz deck that I have proxied.   That is no indication of it's Vintage worthy-ness, but it just make me feel good.

For me this deck is soooo much fun to pilot.

Inspired by the Multi-color Suicide thread. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42118.0

I wanted to peruse making a mono black deck that abused Death's Shadow.

What ended up happening is I made a deck that does not even contain Death's Shadow, and I ended up with a Pox deck.

Now Pox decks are nothing new, but I think some new printings can (maybe) bring the archetype into Vintage viability.

This deck abuses Bloodghast's ability to come into play upon each landfall.  Since Pox Decks traditionally ran a higher land count to deal with the masochistic destroying of their own land it seems like a natural fit.  

It turns out to be quite powerful feeling. Coupling this with more, and more discard it's quickly insurmountable. So without further ado my list:

Hand Hate:
4   Pox
4   Smallpox
4   Inquisition of Kozilek
4   Duress
4   Hymn to Tourach

Creatures:
4   Bloodghast
4   Sedraxis Specter <---I too hand hate ...from the grave
3      Dark Confidant

Draw:
4   Night's Whisper

Artifact:
3   The Rack

Mana:
22   Swamp

Brief notes on the play:

T1 is reserved for a 1 cc discard. If you are playing combo you obviously go for the combo breaker. If it's anything else you look for anything that can mess with your plan. If you have a choice you always take anything they can put on the board early especially Artifacts or Enchantments. They are there to stay. However weigh the effect of that spell being resolved. Many times it's best to grab the draw spell. Once they loose that they are on the downward slope of cards in hand reduction, and quickly become pinned. You really don't care about S. Top.

T2 if you can you either Smallpox (ditching a Bloodghast or a Sedraxis Specter) or Hymn to Tourach. You want to avoid casting Bloodghast he's meant to come from the grave for free after a pox discard.

From there on out keep attacking the hand and dropping The Rack whenever avail. Pox Early and often, and replenish cards in hand with Night's Whisper before Dark Confidant.

Now many of you are much smarter than me, especially when it comes to Magic.  So when you read this list and you want to know why I chose something over something else it is likely that I simply did not consider it.  So if you have any suggestions, or feedback on how to improve this list.  I'd be happy to listen.

I figure that this is the most efficient way to test its worthy-ness (via the community) than in my ill equipped hands.

I have finally gotten on board with this MWS thing, so I hope to be testing it quite a bit.

Thank you for reading.

Well with the group locking into the 5 colors as a given I'd like to add that we should consider running 4 x Runed Halo.  If you know what you are playing against Runed Halo stops just about every Vintage win outside of Vault Key.

It gives you protection from Inkwell it does not allow Oath to target you, it does not allow Tendrils to target you on and on...  there may be better, but just thowing it out there it's a good staler.

Lim duls Vault loves blue.  It's best played on the opponents EOT so that means you have your mana untapped during your opponents turn.  That works well with Mana Drain.  ...and if your running drain that puts Yawgmoths Bargin into the realm of possibilities.

So you could start off with a Sylvan Library T2: Draw 3 go down to at least 11.  and leave drain up.  If you need to set off drain and look for the mana for Bargin.  If you don't need to drain you Vault into a Death's Shadow @ 2 life or so. ...and you still have drain.  

If you drained loose the counter war, you could just give yourself protection from the issue with Runed Halo

Thoughts?

accidental double post

I know that's what gets me excited!

Well if you go the pain land route you have to count the non-basic land hate.

So you will have to beat them to the punch by keeping all of your converted mana costs with 1 on color like   or   (when used with jewelry)
...and pack tons of hate for Chalice and Counterbalance

Don't want to be land locked early (aye' matey)

Oh and nothing says "eat it Tendrils" in this deck like Angel's Grace. EDIT: or maybe not since Tendrils is loss of life...

However, if I can convince people to go the heavy black route I love Pox here and the heavy land to get by.

There is nothing more fun than hand hate for me.

...and as long as you are running extra lands might as well run a full set of Bloodghasts.  Pitch 'em to to Pox and get 'em out on your landfalls.


EDIT:

Well I think it would be okay in a deck with Mana Drain and duals.

If you choose not to drain then you just top deck via vault EOT for your card of choice on the following draw.

Agree that's why I would prefer to play him in known good decks as a 2 of that already run Vault as an alt (sub par) tinker.


I didn't spell it out, but I was thinking the pox player was on the draw if not I would Thoughtseize.

also, why would you grab a dual when you know you're goign to Pox, Hehe

If Pox was on the draw I was making the following assumptions.

Opponent played a land (if MUD hopefully Shop) and at least 1 other card, preferably a creature (golem / gorf?). leaving them with (5) However it is likely more like land 1 solomoxen --> something (4)

You draw so you have 8 - fetch - dark rit - pox. = (5)/3= 2 rounded leaves you with 3.  ...and your deck is built for it.

Your opponent looses their land and 1/3rd of life and is left with 2 or 3 cards.

Is is "solid"? I dunno... It is the creative thread right?  I think it would be okay. 

If the option is not favorable use your Thoughtseize /Duress/ Inquisition of Kolizek and hope for the best.

 

Do not overlook Pox.

Solid T1:
Fetch --> Land (u. sea?) -->Dark Rit --> Pox

In the end that nets you (20 - 1) * (2/3) = 12.6 repeating --> Rounded down 12.

That makes Death's shadow cast-able t2 @ 1/1 (or better with T2 fetch / pain lands)

It is true you also loose the T1 land and 1/3rd of your remaining hand. but...

Pox also disrupts your opponent.  They will be at no higher than 13 life.  If it was on the draw you could nab their turn 0 creature, and they loose 1/3 of their hand (opponents choice) , and their only land.

Back up moves like that with Thoughtseize and Bob, and you should have your opponent reeling.

Additionally, when others are busy with their less efficient wins we could build a deck but nothing of the best 5 color disruption/draw mana (all be it cheap mana) can buy, and win with that "combo"!

EDIT: a 3 mana 2 card combo is approaching the awesomeness that was flash ...but not quite.

I think this thread should seriously consider Lim-Dul's Vault.

It's good as is, and "faster" than Sylvian Library as you can do as much damage as you want when you want.

i.e. Cast Death's Shadow

opponents EOT --> Lim-Dul's Vault


Swing.

EDIT:...in that case he does not need his own archetype he can go in anything that runs vault, or anything that can run vault.

realistically though here is what I think a good basis would be:

4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Tarnished Citidel
4 swamp
2 island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Other Fetch

4 lim duls vault
4 pox
4 Death's Shadow
1 Necropotence
4 Thoughtseize
4 Night's Whisper
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ancestrall
4 Sink Hole
2 Pithing Needle
4 chain of vapor
4 Echoing Truth

You can "combo" with Lim Duls Vault.  ...as in you can take as much damage as you want when the time is right.

The rest just goes with the theme.  If they play a permanent you bounce it and force them to discard.

You use pox, sinkhole, and strip set to keep their choice colors to a minimum.  If this does not cut it try some chalices or something.

Granted I'm not a pro at vintage anymore I just applicate the fact that you humor me with allowing me to post my hair-brained ideas.

obviously you would pull their creature hate first.

Thanks

...if you are going to go for it you might as well GO FOR IT!

+

Optional...  

BROKEN!

Lich gets you to 0.

Spirit Link gets you draw (or nullifies opponents unshrouds) , Flickering Ward = Evasion / Protection.

FYI - Since I do not think Enchantress is viable in Vintage, and I did not know where to post Legacy info on this site I have created this thread on another site.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20454-Kor-Spiritdancer-{Enchantress-y}-B-W

It is to try and make a Legacy viable Kor Spiritdancer based deck.  It is a White / Black discard based version.  If your interested take a look.  Thank you.

Alright, alright, I'm not quite ready to give up just yet.

Here is a simple list, that just may work.  It takes ideas from Delha's point of view, and Masta on an old thread.  It is 

Black simply for the efficient cheap discard disruption, and it looks outside the world of enchantments for the win. 

Here is the list:
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Rootmaze
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Earthcraft
3 Squirrel's Nest
4 Exploration
4 Bloodghast
3 Abundance
3 Sylvian Library
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
6 Swamp
4 Forest

The reason this completely untested list excites me is it is very simple, and tough to disrupt fully. With a lower curve than most enchantress decks.

2 0cc spells
16 1cc spells (8 Enchantments)
14 2cc spells (6 Enchantments)
3 3cc spells (3 Enchantments)
3 4cc spells (3 Enchantments)

It could probably use the Seal of Primorduim's but this is what I came up with when I started tying to build an enchantress deck from a probability point a view.

Discards should give this a better match-ups than previously discussed versions with permission, and TPS.

You could board 4 wheels of Sun and moon for dredge, or there may be room to find a strip set. to help all match-ups.

Still have Squirrel-craft, but pick up the annoying Bloodghasts.  We all know how well enchantress can lay a land down.

This version also explores the Abundance / Sylvian Library combo to gain CA, gain richer draws, and ration land draw / drops.

If anyone still has it in them to discuss, I'd love to hear improvements.

Ah, no worries.  It's good to ride decks hard that is where improvement comes from.

I'll keep messing around with it to see if I can crack the code, but I don't know if there is anything to give a play by play about anymore.

Thanks all

Well... That's depressing.  ...you're absolutely right.

...and to see this only means plays like this have been missed over many matches.  many many matches.  As you have tried to tell me before.

From that foundation all "testing" is at a loss, and it isn't much of a jump at all to say I'm too rusty to be playing Tier 1 Vintage magic, let alone innovating an archetype that many have tried and given up on before.

Quite frankly, I'm at a loss.

I guess style of play... Why give Mystic Remora more draws when you can just wait it out?

I've played this match many times and if you play as though Mystic Remora, or a Hidden has not hit the table, you will typically become over-run.  Odds for enchantress winning goes way up.  This may be different now that there are fewer hiddens to run you down though.

As for Key, Hidden Guerrillas hit the table, and Bob was clocking just fine as is.  Play key no more clock. As a matter of fact 5 turns to your loss less a bounce or another Bob. That is if enchantress does not land other beats in the mean time.

As for the Tezz list I can't find it but it was one what won a major tourney found 6 months ago on SCG when I put it together.

Okay I wrote out 2 Tezz Matches (it's all I had time for):

T hand: Fetch, Magus of the Unseen, Bob, Thirst for Knowladge, Rack and Ruin, Underground Sea, Force of Will

E hand: Counterbalance, Shock Dual, Top, Argothian Enchantress, Root Maze, Counterbalance, Enchantress Presence

T1: Fetch -> Volcanic (19)

E1: (didn't write draw) Shock Dual -> Root Maze (18)

T2: (Brainstorm) U. Sea, Brainstorm [Tolarian, Force of Will, Bob] [Put back: Magus then Tolarian] (19)

E2: (Mystic Remora) Hidden Guerrillas (18)

T3: (Magus) Bob (19)

T4: (Bob: Tolarian) (Misdirection) Tolarian, Magus Att: Bob[16] (19)

E4: (Remora) Counterbalance (Foce of Will: Misdirection [18]) (16)

T5: (bob: Chain of Vapor (17))(Hurkyls Recall) Att: bob, magus [13] (18)

E5: (Shock Dual) shock (rooted) Counterbalance (Force: Hurkyls [16]) (13)

T6 (B: Crypt)(vault) Att: Bob, Magus [10])(16)

E6: (Hidden Guerrillas) Argothian -> Hidden Guerrillas (e draw: Root Maze) (10)

T7: (B: Denomic Tutor(14)) (Time Walk) D Tutor (voltaic key) Crypt, Time Walk, Key (14)

T8: (B: Mana Drain (12)) (Inkwell) vault win

Tezz 1 & 0

Edit: I guess Tezz could have bob'ed themselves to death, but I guess I scooped so Game 1 to Tezz.


Game 2
T hand 1: (2) Force of Will, Island, Vampiric Tutor, Inkwell, Mox Sapphire, Chain of Vapor (redraw due to Inky)
T hand 2: Force of Will, Top, Drain, Mox Jet, Bob, Mox Ruby

E hand: (2) Remora, (3) island, Shock Dual, Enchantress Presence

E1: Island, Remaora (20)

T1: Ruby, Jet (remora draws: Force of Will, Counterbalance) Bob (20) [in retrospect I should have possibly countered the second mox especially Jet]

E2: Pay (Argothian) Shock (tapped) (20)

T2: (B: Voltaic Key [19])(Force of Will) Att: bob [18] (19)

E3: pay (Hidden Guerrillas) Forest, Hidden Guerrillas (18)

T3: (B: u sea) (Mystical Tutor) u sea, Mystical [tinker] (remora draw: Root Maze) Att: bob [16](19)

E4: did not pay remora (Force of Will) island, Argothian {Force of will: Mana Drain [18]} Counterbalance {Force of Will: Time Walk [17]} (16)

T4: (B: Tinker [14])(crypt) Tinker: Sac Ruby {Force of Will: Remora [15]} Att: bob [13] (14)

E5: (Counterbalance) Island, Enchantress Presence, Counterbalance (E draw: Enchantress Presence) (13)

T5: (B: fetch)(Mana Drain) Fetch -> U sea Att: Bob [11] (13)

E6: (top) top, Root Maze (E: Mox Sapphire) Mox Saph. (11)

T6: (B:Inky [4])(fetch) Fetch tapped Att: Bob [9] (4)

E7: (Shock Dual) topped [foce of will, Enchantress Pressence, Forest] Enchantress Pressence (e: Enchantress Pressence) Shock: Tapped (9)

T7 (B: Darkblast [3])(tolarian) Tolarian Att: Bob [7] Darkblasts bob (3) E:topps

E8: (Argothian) Argothian {drained}, Enchantress Presence (e: Enchantress Presence) (7)

T8: (Mox Emerald) E:topps

E9: (Energy Field) Energy Field, (e: Wheel of Sun and Moon, Word of Winds) WoWinds (e draw opt out bounce 2) leads to win

Tied 1-1

You could Crop Rotate, [or Land Grant for that matter] into a basic Forest ...correction basic land to help with the probability of having one when you need it, and run fewer basics to help the playability of   or   cc spells. ...but it's risk [counter ability / Standstill dis-synergy] may likely out weigh its reward.
haha point taken.  ...but it is worth mentioning that each mana above 1 the relevancy / explosiveness of enchantress's draw ability wains.

Just out of curiosity do you have a list of what you tried?

Did it include Guttural Response to help with Permission, and U tutors?

Also did you consider include Manamorphose to help combo like much in the same way Frantic Search did in old Extended builds?

Alright, it looks like i have my work cut out for me for a while.  I will proxy up Oath, MUD, TPS, and Selkie in addition to Dredge, and Tezz, and I will comment on all the match-ups.

This will take me a bit of time though.

I stand completely corrected on Force of Will.  I run a few test matches (once again against Tezz) with 4 in there + 4 Counterbalance
Removing (2) Eryao (1) Utopia Sprawl (1) Enchantress Presence (3) Hidden Herd (1) Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the match-up felt stronger.

Note on Counterbalance: It was probably just luck, but that enchantment alone countered 4 spells in one match with no deck manipulation (Vampiric Tutor, Voltaic Key, Mox Jet, Mystical Tutor) it saved that match.
 
Note on Wheel of Sun and Moon:  Currently I'm on the stance that in vintage it only minimally helps Energy Field.  Anything that stops can destroy Energy Field also destroys Wheel of Sun and Moon, and it will often lead to a 2 for 1 when targeting wheel.  therefore in the long run Wheel MAY not be needed, and we could use Energy Field as more of a temp stop.

I did test with Standstill in the past with poor results, but there are some major changes from that past build.  I picked up the Hiddens, and Energy Field both of which help to control the board better making Standstill stronger.  Couldn't this also just help the 1 card win player sculpt the perfect hand with backup to win, or at the very least get a handful of counter-magic? 

My issues with Squirrel-craft are:
-it is 2 cards for 5 mana
-each piece screams counter me
-requires a basic forest

Whereas Word of Winds is:
-2 cards for 4 mana
-1 of which will most likely not be countered (mana enchant) and has more synergy with the rest of the deck.
-Does not require a basic forest

...but if Squirrel-craft is what we would like to test then our deck is almost built for us.

It would need the following if running Root Maze:

-17 blue spell minimum including Force of Will
-6 Forests less the risky Crop Rotation (1 in 10 chance to find one that give you 3 turns for your 3cc card)
-18 Remaining mana sources
-4 Argothian Encahntress
-3 Earthcraft minimum
-3 Squirrel's Nest minimum
-4 Root Maze
-8 more 1cc or less spells to do something turn 1 [if running (4) Mystic Remora] (16 total)

That is 63 cards.

...so we would need another (4) 1cc blue spell (Seal of Removal? Spell Peirce?)  If my math is right this leave no room for Seal of Primordium, and Hidden spells.

This frees up a bit without Root Maze.  Thoughts on that?

Hey all-

I'm going to use this post to attempt to wain the attrition, and answer some perceived wishy-washyness.

I was (for a while) pulling things out of my bum on this thread just to lay out seeds for ideas to see if anyone could hitch their wagon to it and help me see it through.  Based off some comments I've made a good effort to stop this practice and get down to business.

I tested the GW list above quite a bit against Tezz (approaching 50ish matches) and the deck didn't win all that much.  It won somewhere under a third of the time.

In an effort to make it work I made the adjustments listed above, and found myself being bob-ed to death quite a bit.  The deck got good at stalling its loss, but couldn't do too well at winning.

It was of my opinion that the top deck tutors (Enlightened, and Sterling Grove) were a bit too slow. Drawing either wasn't an especially good feeling since they only afforded me the opportunity to effect the match instead of affecting the game on that turn.

It was also my opinion that that this deck didn't use the enchantress too well.  The high casting costs of a chunk of the spells hindered the explosiveness of enchantress, and made it more vulnerable to counter spells.  In many ways I felt that this deck could have done better without an enchantress in it.

I walked away from it for a while to try and figure out what needed to be done to make it work.

When I came back I figured a new perspective would help.  I figured if   was truly the best colors for enchantress then a simple search in the Gatherer should prove that.

I pulled this list.
&type=%20[%22Enchantment%22]&subtype=%20![%22Aura%22]&cmc=%20%3C=[3]]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?sort=cmc+|color+&action=advanced&output=spoiler,textspoiler&format=|[%22Vintage%22]&type=%20[%22Enchantment%22]&subtype=%20![%22Aura%22]&cmc=%20%3C=[3]

I was looking at which color could be the most disruptive with the lowest curve.  I was expecting to find White to be second to Green (Hiddens & Root Maze), and in my opinion I did not.

Blue's Mystic Remora and Energy Field seemed to be a better path to at least experiment with. thus the   switch.

I kept testing both to prove out my gut feelings, and I feel blue is a better fit currently than white.  In my opinion it is more explosive, and gives you a reason to play enchantress.  I am more than willing to hear alternative opinions to this if you disagree.

Now a word on the hiddens.  They are better than I thought they would be.  They are interactive, give you a play T1 other than Root Maze or a mana enchant, and only get more explosive, and harder to ignore in a good enchantress draw-play / draw-play turn.

They nickel-and-dime the heck out of counter, and can quickly become a force to be reckoned with.  I'm open to dropping any of them, but I caution that you may be hard pressed to find something better in that slot.

Items to note Hidden Herd almost always triggers, and can block Bob's to death, and are a better clock than Bob.  Mid-game they can become a good cantrip, and can caution a good player not to drop that mana that may not be pressing based off their hand they see at the time.  This can easily play into resolving a Root Maze making that decision hurt more.  ...but once again this is open.  

EDIT: This also indirectly helps the Word of Winds win-con.  Additionally, when triggered, it slows or potentially kills Tezz. They also help with Edict effects


Also, Hidden Gibbons shouldn't be so easily overlooked as well.  These trigger on blues counters, and most draw.  Blacks fast mana, Reds direct damage, and greens artifact hate. and each colors top deck tutors.

On Force of Will.  No doubt this card is amazing, but consider this.  This lessens your card advantage, and will most likely be a loosing battle unless you play the drains and other counter magic to support it.  

This also lessens the effectiveness of Energy Field sans Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Trying to counter something to protect it only kills it.  As talked about earlier in this thread I think the better way for enchantress to go is not spell or mana denial, but win denial.

We need to try to come together on a single philosophy.  I'm in the school of our opponent can not counter everything, and nothing is too important.  I fear if we go the Force of Will route it will quickly become the same shell you see Oath, and Tezz have around them. I'm interested in a new archetype, and a new archetype sometimes requires new philosophies.

I'd be far more interested in running Counterbalance.  Ponder this.  It is a perm and therefore more compatible with a stand alone Energy Field.  It is an enchantment and is therefore more synergistic with enchantress effects.  You do not loose card advantage to use it (in fact you gain it.) The effect can not be traditionally countered or misdirected. This combos with Soothsaying, and Sensi's Divining top. (and top deck tutors / but that isn't good for stand alone energy fields) ...and indirectly combos with Telepathy.

Edit: Eryo, Soratimi Acendant disrupts in a similar manner when flipped, and also maintains CA.  Countering the first spell of each turn of your opponents is huge.  On their turn they are wasting something [usually mana and CA], and on your turn they are burning 2 counter spells to counter 1 thing. This also thins the board for an easier bounce win.  ...and it like Counterbalance it's effect can not be traditionally countered or misdirected.


Finally,  we the development team need to decide on a win.  I am a fan of Word of Winds. This card is useful even when you can not quite perm lock, and can bounce anything on the board up to and including Sphinx of the Steel Wind.  Then deck, and or attack for the win.  I do think the deck could use a Wind Zendikon or to to secure the beat Word of Winds win.

I'd love to hear what anyone has to say to this post.

My GF , people I know, and myself. 

I have won some matches never resolving an enchantress.  Slowly Beating with transformed hiddens.  Played from behind a Mystic Remora.  It's hard for Tezz not to trigger something.

I know in this match it is all about playing tinker unless vault key hands itself to you.


I have to agree.  Currently I was trying to test things to see if I can even put together an enchantress build that wasn't solely Tezz hate that could win.  Then I would put it through the gauntlet.  This whole thing may need to be scrapped, but I'll keep trying, just because I want it to work.


No, I think this is where cutting the Seals was a huge mistake, I'm sure by the time I'm done testing they will be back in there with little dispute.

I'd really like to run white in the deck primarily to pick up Runed Halo, but I'm currently at a loss on the manabase with the Root Maze hinderence.  With Runed Halo & Energy Field, Tinker is less of an issue, and TPS is a better match.  Any thousht on that.

I know there is Prismatic Omen, but I just don't see that being as reliable as needed.

Thanks Delha for your time.  Please keep the help coming.

I have not tried Stasis only because I didn't know how I would sustain it.  Additionally I didn't know how it would help me win.

In Tezz I'm not fearful of the Vault / Key combo.  I'm fearful of the blue bounce that Vault key can find.  If it weren't for the bounce Vault Key (most of the time) would do nothing because energy field wouldn't allow them to damage me via the attack.

To vault key win (unless I'm mistaken) I think the better enchantress check would be Seal of Primordium which the above list should have. Currently Stasis would shut me down as well unless I bounced it, but usually by the time I resolve a Word of Wind I can bounce my opponent back to their had in 2ish turns.  With a Root maze that is a hard lock less pitch spells.  and Eryao, if in play and flipped (should be if I bounced all that) it is a hard lock & a win [decking].


I have not.  I have tried Ginjus in the earlier lists using Kor Spritdancer, but not here.  It may prove top be beneficial, and I will keep it in mind.

The impetus for me to add the hidden wasn't necessarily for beatz it was to nickel-and-dime counter decks.  Cheap enchantments to either draw counters or make them pay.  If they are not enchantments then I don't draw.  I chose the Hidden because they are 1 green and can keep them bottled up.  If they choose to ignore them I could possibly beat them down pretty quick.  If they draw a counter they did their job, and with an enchantress in play I still draw.  This is the current ends to my they-can't-counter-everything approach.

Hidden Guerrillas is especially good at this.  A 5/3 trampler for is as broken as they come.  Add Draw 1 for each enchantress in play it gets a little ridiculous.  It should keep the jewelry, the mid-game Top, the whatever at bay.

I don't see it as the primary win though, just the accidental ones like Bob.

For those of you that are interested I still have not given up on getting a viable enchantress deck.

I have tested Delha's deck heavily solely against Tezz, and it lost over 1/3 of its games to this deck.  Mainly because of Tinker.

The tutoring as a defense seemed to be about a turn or two too slow.  Strip lands, although it made me feel like I could interact with my opponent, was not slowing enough to do much harm.

I tried modifying the list first lightly.  Removing the fetches for Shock duals, and the strips for basics split 2/2.  and then pulling Wheel of Sun and Moon, Rule of Law, and Abolish for (4) Root Maze.

When Root Maze was landed this DID allow me to get the time to find the tutored silver bullets and stall the game for many turns, but it was too difficult to assemble my 1 win to pull off many wins.

I tried many versions of the white green, and I found I would get slowly clocked down by a Bob of all things.

This version I felt was missing accidental wins. i.e. weenie attacks.

So I changed things up a bit and I added the two of the hidden enchantments, Hidden Herd, and Hidden Guerrillas. (who doesn't play artifacts or Non-basics?)

These helped the match up quite a bit.  I could suddenly attack or block, or force the Tezz player to hold on to artifact mana, or not needed non basics.  When I did this I dropped the intermediaries, and went right for the Solitary Confinement lock.  So I ran (4) of those plus (4) Squee, and Luminarch Ascension for the win. (I chose Luminarch Ascension over Sacred mesa because I shouldn't be loosing life, and it curved better)  When It worked it worked well, the combo of Squee & Solitary wasn't too hard to come across, but the landing Luminarch Ascension before I did was the hard part.

Many times I was forced to throw down the combo in response to a tinker, and lost because the would eventually bound and walk, or bounce go infinite.

So I was open to trying new things at this point.

I looked at all colors, and tested many decks.

Oddly enough I ended up back to blue with this list less Ancestral Knowledge:

6 solomoxen
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Breeding Pool (works well with Root Maze)
4 Tropical Island
4 Root Maze
4 Energy Field
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mystic Remora
4 Utiopia Sprawl (was a cheap ench. \ help the dual color \ works well under Root Maze)
1 Brainstorm
6 Forest
2 Enchantress Presence
1 Squirrels Nest
2 Erayo, Soratami Acendant (A card worth playing in a cheap enchantment Echantress build)
1 Time Walk
2 Earthcraft
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Veil of Birds
1 Fastbond
3 Hidden Herd

This deck was able to go ever 50% against Tezz
 
The main combo with this version was Energy Field & Wheel of Sun and Moon = No Damage till dealt with

This curves easier than Solitary, and strengthens the enchantress by both parts being enchantments. Both of which can be played in either order, and you can still draw.

However you can not stop Tendrils.

With blue we also gained Mystic Remora.  This is an enchantment that is as cheap as they come, and effects the game in draw, and soft disruption.

Erayo, was added in a low CC shell to hopefully flip him to counter you opponents first spell a turn (mine and theirs).  I'm not sure but I think if you play 2 spells, and your opponent tries to counter your third it may get countered by Erayo by the time The counter tries to resolve.

4 spells isn't too hard in an enchantress build of this kind.

I pulled the Seals because of the dis-synergy with Energy Field, and the deck didn't suffer too greatly, but I'm not sure it was right.

In that re guard I should have pulled the Mystics too but I opted not to.

After this missing the tutoring I went back to white green builds, and tooled around with them and got okay results.

I went back to research and found and I kept seeing this combo for old extended decks.

Word of Winds + Enchantress + Exploration

Honestly in ways that are still not that clear to me that allowed people to return you opponents perms almost indefinitely.

But then I found this link:
http://www.moxdiamond.com/Magic-The-Gathering-Combo/14415/Wild-Growth-and-Words-of-Wind-and-Argothian-Enchantress.html

This makes more sense. 

Enchantress + Utopia Sprawl + Word of Winds (and untapped lands) = Bounce your opponents perms.

With Erayo in play 4 spells is a breeze

So I built this:

Mana:
3 Forest
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Breeding Pool
6 Moxen Lotus

4 Utopia Sprawls
4 Mystic Remora
4 Root Maze
4 Hidden Guerrillas
3 Hidden Herd
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Energy Field
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Word of Winds
2 Erayo, Soratami Accendant

This went 8-2 against Tezz.

Now that is no indication of how good this can be in all of vintage, but I wanted to put it up here to see what everyone thought, and see if anyone can help its overall cause.

I'll have to proxy up other decks to test.

I'll be out of town for a long weekend, but then I'll be right back at it.

Any input would be appreciated, and thanks for all your help.





http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/9063_Yawgmoth8217s_Whimsy_123_Enchantress_in_Extended.html








 

I see your points.  I suppose I wrote it down wrong, but I'm glad I wrote something.  Your play with the deck helps me better understand how to optimize it.


Agreed.  I think I need to step away from this for a few days to let some ideas germinate in my mind, and others settle out.  Knowing myself this will give me a better perspective, and greater patience.


Honestly I have no idea, but what I do like about this alt plan is it make the deck so much easier to pilot (for myself) as it has the potential to simplify our objective.

Simply stop them from winning (i.e. Solitary Confinement) [somehow] drop a single "Near Death Experience" and win with 1 life.

This could be fuled by the uncounter-able Glacial Chasm, allowing us to care less about creatures, and more about creature effects.   ...but the more and more I thought about this plan (although I still like it) it does not fit the Enchantress mold very well.  I think it would be a good candidate for white walks (Orim's Chant, Abeyance and the alike) sprinkled with Angel's Grace, and Street Wraiths to move it along you soon have no place for enchantments or Enchantress's.   ...so that's where I'm at with that thought right now.    


Sadly, Root Maze is simply needed to give enchantress a chance to set the game pace which she so desperately needs to do.

If I had to put them in right off the bat I'd place 2 in the Wheel of Sun and Moon slots, and hope to land hate enough against dredge game1 to set up behind Solitary

Then Rule of Law, and tutor a Runed Halo for TPS

And lastly remove Abolish.

...those are my initial thoughts, but I'll let them steep for a few days

Results from testing Delha's list above against a traditional Tezz.

(0-3)

Game 1
Didn't write down hands just plays

Ench (e) T1: Savannah

Tezz (t) T1: Mox, Jet, Sol Ring, Underground Sea, Time Vault, Brainstorm

e T2: Seal of Cleansing [FOWed by (t)]

t T2: Denomic Tutor for Black Lotus, Tezzeret Untap Vault WIN

Game 2

(e) hand: Serra's Sanctum, Savannah, Forrest, Earthcraft, Replenish, Regrowth, Enchantress Presence
t hand: (2) Force of Will, Voltaic Key, Sensi's Divining Top [top], Underground Sea, Polutted Delta, Inkwell Leviathan

e T1: Savannah

t T1: Draw :[Mox Pearl] mox Pearl, Underground Sea, Top (:topped)

e T2: [mox ruby] Mox Ruby, Forest, Enchantress Presence [Force of Willed]

t T2: [Vampiric Tutor] Polluted Delta, Vampiric Tutor (Tinker)

e T3:[Aura of Silence (no mana to play)] Earthcraft, Serra's Sanctum

t T3:[Tinker] Tinker -- Inkwell

Swings a couple times to win.

Game 3
e hand: Fastbond, Windswept Heath, Forest, Earthcraft, Argothian Enchantress, Savannah, Mox Ruby
t hand: Tezzeret, Merchant Scroll, Mox Pearl, Mystical Tutor, Dark Confidant, Fire / Ice, Polluted Delta

e T1: Savannah, Mox Ruby, Argothian Enchantress

t T1: [Volcanic Island] Volcanic Island, Mox Pearl, Mystical Tutor(Tinker)

e T2: [Savannah] Savannah, Fastbond [e draw: wasteland], Wasteland (18) nabbed Volcanic Island

t T2: [Tinker] Fetch-Underground Sea (19), Merchant Scroll-Force of Will

e T3: [forest] forest

t T3: [Force of Will] Dark Confidant

e T4: [Replenish (not enough mana)] Plains

t T4: [bob:Denomic Tutor (17)][Polluted Delta] Polluted Delta-Underground Sea (16), Tinker-Inkwell *attack-Bob

e T5: [Runed Halo] Runed Halo (Force of Will'd removing Ice /Fire (15)) [e draw: Regrowth], Fetch-Savannah, Replenish (Force of Will'd removing Tezzeret (14)) Tap:Argothian to untap Forest, Regroth Runed Halo

T T5: [Bob: Time Walk (12)][Underground Sea]*attack: Bob, Inky, Time Walk

t T6: Swing WIN

Noted: The mana base needs help.  IMHO I think we should eliminate the Squirrel craft Wincon (loosening the mana base and freeing a card slot) to try Near Death Experience with rainbow / dual pain lands.

To me this is as solid of a win a Mirror Universe was.  It doesn't care about the board; the only thing that could stop it is your opponent winning, or a can't win the game effect.  Our deck is stacked to simply not loose, we just need cheaper disruption i.e. Root maze and the alike.

This could possibly help the deck overall.

I will test, any comments on that?