I would like Dark Ritual, all four confidant, Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation as a start.  Null Rod and fetchlands plus personally would have some sort of manland.

I have always enjoyed casting smallpox.  It's hard outside of monoblack.

Maybe mind twist, crucible of worlds, and wasteland/strip.

The new draw...,ok, Sign in Blood is cool in this and you could use it to ping your opponent for the win.

have fun, lates, DrKnowMaD

Anyone who has fallowed any of my post probably knows that I am a HUGE fan of Gush.  I play the engine probably more than I should at times (is there such a thing?).  If the direction that I saw taken was a UB shell with force and so on, playing 4-2xDeath as a focus I would consider adding green and Grow my guy with Fastbond, fetch Berserk, swing.  Is he better than Tog, dryad, Lorescale, or Goof?  I don't know, maybe, I have played with all of those cards and they rock, the coatl has mad bite to it.  

Anyways, The deck in discussion is a Five cc Manlock looking deck to me.  That's why both the Damage Land and S.Library are very interesting to me.  The question still is if the synergies of shadow, confidant, library, and to a lesser extent the land for its 5c coolness, are going to prove better than goyf. and spells.

With the way this is played, softlocking, Death's Shadow seems like a good choice as a finisher.  Its good for attacking, especially with vial.  And he is a much better blocker in the end game.  He is cheaper, in a better color, and harder to disrupt than Tarmogoyf.  He is not necessarily faster unless you want to kill yourself, but speed is only need after the lock because it is only soft, hence the need to finish the job Right Now and not give your opponent time to breakout and win.

The thing about this type of deck much like stax is that it wants more specific cards for more specific times.  That is why they tend to be redundant in the nature of the build.  I like the Library because it helps this out a lot.  You are not made to draw the cards so you can control your life total.  Like Divining Top it makes Dark Confidant even better than it already is.  Unlike top it has grove and guile with this list.  

Although the land is more susceptible to Wasteland than gushbond, crucible is in and , loam, regrowth, ex. are also fine cards in regards.  The Damage on the land can be put to good use while easily opening up Five colors.  Playing a lot of Five color (even my Commander is 5c.), accessing all the card in the deck accurately, meaning being able to play any card within requirements in the deck at any time. (excluding opponents gameplay of course) is the hardest and most important function.

On the other hand Fetchlands/shoclands are better with the library (shuffling),  than the damage land.  With 2x/crucible, yeah I like this. The mana base gets much more tricky , which never stopped me before.

Later, DrKnowMaD  

ps. You know what creature I have wanted for a long time, a growing Triskelion.  You know(mad), Gushbond with a colorless growing creature that removes ++ counters to shoot people or creatures.

I used modulators to get the effect but its not the same and a bit cumbersome  

What Fraggle said.  I.E second that.

We should consider all these possibilities.  Using the vault would also have force and the blue/black pack going. 4x D.Shadow as the win.  As Stated before, why not just use tendrils?

I like the Library in this, It is card draw and not just topdeck fun.  Maybe Library of Alexandria as a compliment to the draw pack.

DrKnowMaD

Nice, this is very good.  I know it can be tweaked but I like the shell.  What about with confidants also?  

I can't say for anyone else but for me CoW has been a key effect to have in my builds.  I can't wait for this to be on a stick.  Hopefully it'll rock when it does happen, until then.  

Still not a fan of the Spellspliter but I know it has a roll to play, I am just not sold on it.  I am interested in how it turns out.

You don't run Pridemage, I haven't gotten to play with the Warder.  I like them and want to, just haven't yet.  How are they?

Yeah, when I first peeped the Shadow I thought, life lost, ok one of my favorites is Yawgmoth's Bargin, so then rector and yeah, I didn't really think things through an much less that someone would actually do it.  Hey thats cool though.  How does it work?  Reanimate is another idea if you want one.  (Thank you, I'll be here all night.)  

Lates, DrKnowMaD/

You might be interested in my BayouShop list.  Its InfectShop.  


So you think it is ok to return your win condition for a ninja to draw a card but not ok to use your other lands to tutor/draw grow and swing with a big win condition to end the game?

Standstill could still be good and I see the synergy with ninja.  It just seem clunky and far from optimal.  

Have you tryed Frantic Search yet?  I haven't in this but I do have a FranticStorm list I've been playing, and 4xFrantic is so good with lands that like to untap like Academy and Library of course.

DrKnowMaD

Sorry, I was looking at just Deaths Shadow and Basic Plays with it.  

I looked at your latest incarnation.  I'll get to that but first.


Maybe other Fish players, not MuD Though.  Most list I know and/use have Steel Hellkite which eats the shadow for breakfast then comes back for the rest of the snackies later.  I don't think that new creature is going to cut it.  You need Revoker, otherwise..

Actually, at this point I won't run my Phishy things without it, even if it sits in the board.  Phyrexian Revoker and Meddling Mage is good times.  Add in Vendilion Clique,  Aven Mindcensor,  some Trygon Predator , plus friends and it's a party.  My problem is when I play this deck I feel like I am trying to stop my opponents from playing spells while bringing the beats.  Why is that a problem?  Because I do the same thing when I play MuD but better.  If you do hit my Hellkite with a needle I go for my secondary option to nuke your board and continue to fly over for Five in the meanwhile.  Notice I play fliers, heavy blue, and I use Force of Will (why do I play with this card so much?) , no Teeg main.  He's still in my side.

Now with your list you have lots of nice tools to help this out until Chalice for One comes down.  This is a very common play.  For two can also be seen a lot.  This is why I simply suggest diversifying your converted mana cost a more.  I would likely mull for chalice and play it for one G2 before any other play.  And that's just chalice, what about when Sphere and Rod tech start hitting the board against you as well.  These are all things that can prevent vial from being active.

Not to mention all the Artifact hate going around.  Hows all those vial counters with Hurkyl's , Claims, Grudges.

I love vial and it is very strong in bear beats.  Its mana (my favorite part), its creature speed, and counter protection plus much more subtleties.   I just feel there might be too much focus on it.  With out Teeg you might want Chalice yourself.  Chalice of the Void complements Revoker/Mage nicely.  Engineered Explosives could also be very, very good in a five color build.  Maybe more of a Tool box with needle, ex.. and use four Chalice.  Trinket mage would fit and be pitchable to FoW if needed.  There are so many options at that point.  I personally would keep it simple and mostly creature based if possible.  Like the new planeswalker killer and such.

On a note closely related, I never cared for the Arbiter.  If Its payed for you still get the search.

I do like Death's Shadow as a finisher.  Do you need four?

I would almost like to see Ancient Tomb for a bit more boost.

Path to Exile is much better in this.  You have four Ghost Quarters (highly underrated card) and you are trying to win via life lose (attacking with creatures) and the soft lock.  Swords makes this harder to do. The only thing is gaining a bundle off your own shadow can be helpful.

Otherwise it is a good deck idea and looks fun to play.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

Not at all.  I like your assertive opinions.  I think you have good ideas and that is why I was suggesting to express those thoughts more. I would like you to get the most out of this sight and I personally have found that typically the more depth the better.  Simply, I and many others here are not going to continue any discussion if there is nothing to discus.  

I think my problem is I am not sure how to play this out.  I don't care for the idea of playing an Inkmoth, Standstill, waiting a turn to swing with the land, then bring it to my hand after paying two mana for a bear that draws me a card if I deal combat damage to the opponent.  Then I'm all taped out on my opponents turn.  THEN my opponent cares nothing for my Standstill, cracks it and wins.  Hopefully I drew all my Force of Wills and have ways to pitch them (mana drain, standstill, or ninja most likely) because that's basically my only hope.

Or I sit on drain, hope it doesn't get ripped from my hand, win a war with Force (pitching Sphinx, Standstill, or Ninja) and drain, get to play my bomb with all that drainage, Tezzeret or Gifts Ungiven and begin my vault/key assembly an whatnot.  That doesn't sound bad so why not go with that and ditch all the ninja still stuff.   I can still see a use for the Ink and Blink lands for a secondary maneuver and like there interaction.  I might find a way to add that to my list somehow.

I am having a real hard time understanding how 4xStandstill and 4xNinja are better than  4xGush 1x Fastbond other than natures claim being used a lot hitting fastbond.  Still there is ywill and regrowth.   Besides 4xGush without Fastbond is Gold.  Fastbond is the platinum plated gem studded bling bling over the top.  I am not saying to run it in this.  I think there could be better options in this.  I am just saying there is no way you can convince me that standstill/ninja is superior to Gushbond.
  
I would like to play around with 4x Frantic Search to pump up the volume on the Ink engine.  And then you still have at least four slots to fill.  A pair of Jace and something or some 3xDuress/1x more bounce maybe.  Jace helps with the f.searching.  Add something else to help neutralize the drawback of frantic.  Turn it into a win.  

Confidant seems good in your build.  Is NinjaStand better?

Both Wasteland and Pithing Needle ruin your day I would imagine. (notice I have not tested this decklist and it's all speculation, sorry:)  At least mix up the fetchlands.  Polluted delta allows for a basic swamp if needed.

Yeah, pump spells are typically garbage.  Even on Selkie  g.grow is a recall like card and not worth playing competitively.  Nobles are and might still be good with the Inks direction.  I have a Berserk still in the board and remember an absurdly good deck that usually ran one board maybe one main also.  What was that deck again?  Something about being a gangster.  

Nice, the deck, another Favorite of mine.

Keeper it cool, DrKnowMaD

That's what I'm saying.  Just play both. They hit a lot of targets and are both colorless. (Hex Does prefer Black)  Blacks not a bad option with all the goodies it already has plus the new ones spoiled.  (Praetor's Grip)

DrKnowMaD

I am not going to say everything I want but I will state a few things that caught me off.

First, I hope the second Merchant Scroll was a bounce spell.  At least one, you won't be able to counter everything.  I don't know many people that blindly walk their tinker into a counter. (late in the game and no choice, sure then).

Second, I already quoted you saying this-
 

Now, I am confused.  You said this about my list (which was Gushish) and had a clear Infect theme.  Then you posted your list,  and it is Tezz, and it has almost no Infect to it. 

Lastly, and a third time is the last, after this I am washing my hands.  WHY did you choose the cards you did.  WHAT are the ideas behind those choices.  Do you have a sideboard plan ex....ex..

I want to understand, I am just not seeing it.

Later, DrKnowMaD   

Did you read Form of the Dragon?   MMmm.. Bargain is house.

Tendrils on the other hand is deadly regardless.  Four Cabal Therapy, xThoughtseize, xDuress, xMind Twist ex.. is a good start.  Plus a fast bargain and possibly your own tendrils as a back up.  

Not saying this would work, just throw'n out something and pointing that there is more credibility than a quick assessment that MuD Will Crush (which is a good bet seeing that MuD Does Crush a lot)   Still.

With the Ghouls there may be a way to soft lock.  Something like Children of the Korlis.

DrKnowMaD

I was thinking that the new cards allow you to pay life and there could be a good print, the new Hex creature.  Also there is the Tutor and I think Wish that lose a lot of life.  Something like half.  

Hatred?  

The first thing that came to mind was a Rector build.  Academy Rector, Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain, (form of the dragon) Death's Shadow as the Beats.  From there you got Street Wraith, necro, Skeletal Scrying, Sign in Blood, and a hole slue of cards I can't get of the tongue.  With the rainbows you open this wide up. (yes hate is one of them but when is it not at least a factor)

Maybe just that Oath of Ghouls that you like and Street Wraiths as an engine?

quick thoughts, DrKnowMaD

This is one of if not the best card spoiled.  So Good.  If I got this right I pay   and   (x2)life to remove any counter off any permanent?   And its a win condition that Grows.  What!? Really!?  Yeah, I'll get some of these if that is so.  I see lots of good application so far.

I am really excited about the Phyrexian Mana and I want to see what will be done with it.

The new black card could be amazing too.  Maybe they could work together.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

({PB} may be paid for with either   or 2 life.)

I thought the goal IS to win with Infect hence the Infect forum.


No, It wants Tinker/Blightsteel.   The Inkmoth Nexus + Invigorate was what jumped out of the OP's list.  So I keeped that as something Infecty to do also.  I am really liking the idea and am willing to give it a shot.  When your sitting there drawing, tutoring, Willing, gushbonding ex... having free spells to slam down on (Grow) an Inkmoth is kind of cool, not saying it is optimal, just that it is cool and this is the creative forum.


First, only the Inkmoths should be in danger and a concern.  That is why I suggest -
The rest should be protected with Gush.  How much have you played with the card?(Gush)

Lates, DrKnowMaD

I wouldn't say dead.  You have force, daze , thoughtseize, duress + other options not to mention Tinker/B.steel.  The lands are bonus.  blight + land can do the deed.  Whatever. 


DrKnowMaD 

 
Wasn't going to, but I'll bite.

I had hinted before to you to use your words more and articulate your thoughts.  I think you will get better responses and more positive results, plus actually benefiting the community instead of simply saying the sky is purple.  That doesn't mean much.  If you had said the sky is purple because of light reflecting off gasses in the ozone, then I would have something to think about.  Regardless if it is true or not, I would have something to work with.    

So, with out a shell of an idea to work on, NO deck can be viable at the time it is relevant if it does not exist.

I personally am a huge fan of Phishish decks and have played, perpetuated, innovated, and been a proponent since I began playing largely due to budget and the fun of its play style.  Unless they print an amazing phish style infect creature or two, (other than Inkmoth) FishFect just sux in my opinion.  Might as well play crappy double strikers.

I chose a basic draw/tutor and disruption shell.  Notice its actual closer to Grow with the gushbond engine (anyway just pick'n).  I have been using this frame WAY before Tezz, and Oath was bad until Forbidden Orchard.  Is the win worse?  One Inkmoth + two Invigorate is a two turn clock.  Go broken with back up on the second turn (inkmoth has sickness, could be first with haste) and fetch one Berserk that's GoodGame, one turn clock.  Is this better than Draining on two, tezz on three backed up and awaiting infinite turns.  Probably not.  But its unexpected, and fresh.  I don't even play vault/key right now because its boring me lately. If you want to add it in the list with some Jaces or whatever that's cool too.  

I do want to poison people and infect finally allows a better chance.  Inkmoth is uncounterable and with something like Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, or Petrified Field, Wasteland, artifact hate, and most creature removal is not so much of a deal.  Then you just need the Invigorates to stick which is what the Duress, Force of Will, Daze are for.  

But Wait!  There is another win condition and it's Tinker, which is proven to be one of the best.  Blightsteel is infect and a really good target for tink.  Free +4+4 helps with chump blockers.

To me this IS what vintage infect should resemble.  That's me and why there is a message board to discus such things.

Lates, DrKnowMaD  

Wow, i was just thinking wotc is printing red infect next set.  What about something like   1/1 infect with haste.  A Ragging Infect Goblin thingy.  With S.spirit Guides?
Or Rocket Powered Turbo Slug/Pacts with infect.

Aven Mindcensor is really good in vintage and could go quite well in this.  I personal think it is better than the one you are using for the purpose.

Also the pridemage is the Wiz!!  Run Four.  Teeg and/or Kataki could be a two of.

I really like you are using Ghost Quarter with full Path to Exile.  Most people have two - five basics and fetch them first in fear of waste.  Maybe one more for good messure.  Don't know how sold you are on the Flagstone.

Good one with the walking thorns.  Why don't people play both?  Not for this build, just in general.

With that I would be happy to play this, hope its good.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

ps. I believe in the CrucibleofWorlds fully.  And would look into Chalice of the Void (so good;)

First, I like the latest list.  Very Cool.  

The Loadstones are aggro and run through rods.  I like the strong aggro aspect.  Being able to play multiple roles (aggro, combo, control) towards victory.  They do need the help though to better maximize there potential.

Wurmcoil Engine also fits this and one - two could fit.  Easily cast able and can disrupt some decks in their own way.  There are lots of choices but what about a Sundering Titian?    

I think I am missing something because I don't see Nihil Spellbomb being better than Relic of Progenitus.  You don't seem dependent on a graveyard and the spellbomb needs a   to draw.  I do understand that it easily bypasses Chalice at 0, so favoring instead of T.Crypts.  You have mana and drawing a card would be nice.

Against blue, possibly Mindbreak Trap?  Mindslaver?

Lates, DrKnowMaD

I don't have anything written on this but I wanted to post the general idea of the direction I was thinking.

MaD Infect

1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus
5x Mox
2x Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island                    
2x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Inkmoth Nexus

4x Invigorate
2x Cunning Wish                                  
                                                      
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Fastbond

1x Blightsteel Colossus

4x Gush
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder                                    
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Intuition
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will

4x Force of Will
2x Daze                                

3x Thoughtseize  
2x Duress

Sb
1x Berserk
x Hurkyl's Recall
x Natures Claim
x Mindbreak Trap
x Ravenous Trap
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Forest? Rushing River?

-4 gush -1 fastbond +1 cow +1 berserk +1 regrowth +2 misdirection is also a pos.

Also I wouldn't mind making room for Elvish Spirit Guide.  Maybe leave the two Berserk and - Lotus Petal.  Is Cunning Wish too much?

What about a more LandStill and/orTurbo style?

Again, I have been busy and will get back to this with more detail in time.  Just wanted to get this rolling.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

Always is a strong word.  I am not sure if you mean in this build but, I believe that Noble Hierarch has been proven better in NobleFish than Rancor as one example.

What about blue/Green shell with Force of Will and draw.  Active Inkmoth + Invigorate + Berserk = GG.  Thats not too bad, with back up (Force, Daze, Misd. Druess if a third color is added) and mana boost I see this being doable.  Then you could add Tinker/Blightsteel and BAM! VintageInfect.

Lates,DrKnowMaD

I wouldn't say that the nobles are terrible.  Anything that produces extra mana and pumps my infect count seems considerable to me.  

Inkmoth Nexis and the Invigorate are my favorite things in this I think.  Invigorate is finally good if not almost broken with infect (and a forest).

The Tainted Strike is interesting, (Don't we have BlightSteel?) anyway, I would use Myr Battleshere galactica or Triskelion and shoot people.  
Phyrexian Juggernaut + Berserk?  Bayou,Shops
 
Lates, DrKnowMaD

That makes sense, so stack zoa, wire, tap down three and bounce one of the tapped?

So is this budget or proxy?  If proxy I wouldn't have opal. 

I don't like playing with bad kids, it makes me bad
lates, DrKnowMaD

I used Tangle Wire with esperzoa before.  Having someone tap four every turn and you nothing is good.  I did have a bit more mana production, but it can still be budgeted somehow. (mana vault!!)  There is also a creature that makes your stuff cheap. 

Ghost Quarter is a budget land that could help.

The needle effects are really good with zoa. 

Spell Pierce is another card to consider.  Annul seems too situational.

Sorry if that doesn't help, lates.

DrKnowMaD

I want to apologize if I violate a rule of double post or any other.  If it is an issue I have no problem doing what needs to be done to fix it.  I did modify the other posts a few times and left the new list there. I did want to get a fresh, new perspective on somethings with my build.  So I thought a new space is better to do this with.

The base for this deck of mine is really good for me and what I wanted to share.  It has most of my favorite spells to play plus a few new ones and is very versatile which also compliments my play style.  I feel very confident to play this against anyone and will.  Will I loose some games vs tier one decks and random whatnot because of a few personal choices?  Yes. Loosing is not going to bother me if I don't let it.  It's just part of the game.  Am I going to win also?  Again the answer is yes.

Now I am going to sound robotic but this is the deck that I will play to play, most likely not serious competition, prize/power.  That has never been the goal here.  I would suggest looking at some of the other lists.  Maybe MuD, Oath.dec, SomeShitStorm or Phishish.  It might be obvious but I like GushhStuff.  

Simply put there was something I wanted to build (again!) and did it.  Something fun, an something slightly different while retaining a curtain level of power.  

I think the main idea is good.  Bloodbraid Elf, Elvish Spirit Guide and Mishra's Factory are really cool together.  Bloodbraid is even better than I thought it would be .  Other than that one part of course:).  Sometimes just a braid or two and manlands is plenty to get the W.  Many times without even setting up the top I still rip a bomb like ywill, walk, tink, and flat out win that way.  I recommend trying this card out for some good times.  Oh, there are those times you flop a yawgwin and are like, I'll play my Brainstorm or worse flip into Elvish Spirit Guide wile playing against ThePerfectStorm.  This is much more rare so far in my playing.  If you compare how many good blind flips targets to the not so good.  If!  I blind flip.  The odds are in my favor.  

Cruicible of Worlds is my best friend against wizards strait hating on my precious.  Don't get me wrong.  I still play with my Wastelands too.  And I was stripbonding previously in this thread.  Just not momentarily.  
  
Now, there are those few personal slots that could be whatever the player is more comfortable with.  A good example is Zuran Orb.  This card was never originally in my thoughts, only fastbond for gush  goodness and Crucible of Worlds because I did have a more phishy build with the strip mine, wastelands, with some other mana denial.  When I moved away from that direction, I removed most of those things except strip, which too has now been mmm.. striped.  

If you like Vault/key better (why not it's awesome right) then play that instead.  

Another thing you might be asking yourself is why so many tinkertoys.  When Brainstorm was a four of it never bothered me to have only one because I could always put the bot back into the library easily.  Without Brainstorm I just have too many troubles.  I had the same problems with only two and have found three to be the magic number for me.  Bot in hand is the same reason to want them blue so I can pitch them and save the more relevant spells if possible.  The exception for me is BlightSteal Colossus and the like.  I want to try this guy and get away with dropping it to thirst, wheel, whatever to get it back in.  

If you (the reader) has success with only one, (other than noted) cool, that opens up a couple of slots.

The most resent change to the list above is Rebuild over the Goblin Welder.  I think Rebuild might be the missing piece.  I honestly have not played much with the Rebuild in this yet and can not fully tell.   I have played a lot with welder and find it very hard for me to do this to the little ashtray maker.  He is my recursion piece with the bonus of messing with my opponents.  A few things about Rebuild though, not only does it hinder an opponents board position wile most likely bettering your own when it works out.  But It Cycles!  This enables me disruption without ever really feeling dead.  If only my Duress had cycling.  Wink wink.  Duress and Rebuild are not as good with bloodbraid because they are both more contingent of the situation. Still they have there place, and four slots is doable.  Would Three Thoughtseize be better?

Wow, all those words just to get to what I really want to say.

I do want a comprehensive 75.  This means I need some major help.  I do know that I want a wishboard.  Others will disagree and do something else, whatever, it's just what I want.  

How many slots do I dedicate?  Two, Three, Fifteen?  What are my best choices?

As of now, this is what I am working with.

SB.

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Pyroclasm
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Preordain
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Nature's Claim
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Ravenous Trap
1x Duplicant
1x Inkwell Leviathan 
p.s.  This is the newest one

I know, I know, I said I needed help. (lots of eyes here tonight).

My objective here is to have flexible cards to bring in G2 and still have options G1.

The Razormane Masticore was something I saw recently main decked in a (mud?) list that stomped.  I was immediately like @#$%  know kidding.  What a house.  It hits most everything.  trygon,  confidant, golem, fish, welder, ex.. I have rarely played with  Razormane, typically using Triskelion instead.  Will it work as a good Tinker target though in some match ups?  By itself it probably wouldn't.  But with Triskelion and Duplicant it has a possibility.  Really the only one I do want to keep for sure is Duplicant.  He is my SwordstoplowS.  

I do already have Steel Wind to clean up most of the mess.

I have been seeing GUW variants of Phish more than BUG.  Should Massacre replace Pyroclasm?  Clasm seems more flexible.
  
I have little Game siding against storm.  Duress, Ponder, and Trickbind.  

I think I asked this before, what about a Leyline or trap?

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject.  Thanks for reading and I look forward to all the great ideas.

Dr.KnowMaD








      

I never wanted to focus on any-one aspect of the deck, just have multiple directions with the cards available.  

If I remove red, (wheel and wish) than how do I play Bloodbraid?  

I see your wisdom in Seal of Primordium with bloodbraid.  I flipped hurkyl's one time and had to bounce my mana, it was cool because had already gotten rid of the hate and played it all back for the win, still kind of awkward.

What if I did something like - Zuran orb - Crucible of Worlds - Strip Mine   an add +2 Seal  + Tolarian Academy

Then I was thinking I will cut Taiga for either an island, swamp, (mountain?).  - 2 Scalding Tarn +2 Polluted Delta?.

- 1 Fact or Fiction  + 1 Intuition   I really do like fact a lot but it does not fit under the Braid and why I originally omitted it in favor of ponder.  Top is still a high consideration for its synergy with BBE.  Without crucible Intuition is less attractive.
 
I wanted to speak once more about Burning Wish in this list.  I do not believe I would ever use four times of that card in something like this.  I usually don't use it unless it reads for   an X mana ( ) I win the game or for a   an X- I don't lose next turn.  Its like a multifunctional bullet in this build.  Many times its   lates to inkwell or   kill moonmen an friends.  That might seem like a lot and if crucible does come out it will be a bit more costly but the flexibility factor also needs to be added.

The more I think about it losing CoW could be a bummer.  I like being able to battle wasteland.  I do Tinker this in often for that reason.  It also makes me more comfortable playing four colors.  So that means that something else like MindSlaver (so fun..small bead of tear falls).   Goblin Welder is slightly effected but still has its purpose as of now.  This could change.  And then if that's done, what where does that leave me for winning. Tinker, I don't have inf mana so I can't reliably hard cast.   A forced need to burn for tendrils, with no rituals.  No Mindslaver stays for now.  I think it has to be one or the other.  Slave or broken.  

Seeing how I do not own Intuition yet it will have to be that slot.  Bot slot is another option. I honestly perfer three bots if I play Tinker but I don't have much space to work with at the moment.  This is much much more important without  four brainstorms.  With that said, Ponder , Preordain, and Sensei's Divining Top all have much appeal.

I will try toying with some of these changes and get some testing when I can to see what works in actuality.  Am I getting closer?


                                                                                                                                                               Lates, DrKnowMaD


Up Date!

Ok, I tried out many of the ideas mentioned by everyone.  The first attempt was cutting the Orb combo and adding SealofP.  While playing this, the Seals main did not fit the way the deck wants to play out.  Also the deck tried to play a Slaver role far to much instead of a MorphSlave.  Without Mana Drain this is just bad and what I was working on avoiding in the first place.  I then opted to exchange the Mindlslaver for Zuran Orb and removed the welders.  

Taking the advice that I need to optimize bloodbraid if that was going to be a focus piece of the deck,  I took the deck apart and looked once more at what I really wanted to play.  This is a deck made for the fun of magic and these are the cards I wanted.  Dr.'s Factory, BloodbraidTinker, a FastGushWorld, my broken WalkWillRecall, other DemonicBrainstorms, and a strong Force of Will.  So.. I am looking at an aggressive tinkdeck with a gushbond  engine?  I thought then that I should keep with this and continue going back to my roots.  

Fact did go for Ponder.  Of the recent I might change this to Frantic Search.  I could see fact being very good with BBE and I can Merchant Scroll it.  I will get Intuition, for now this will do.

To the rest of the original list above I swapped Strip Mine for Tolarian Academy.  Academy sometimes does only produce little to no mana depending on the hate but most of the time it is a mana bomb.  Strip on the other hand can almost always produce a colorless mana, usually it should be to 1-1 a land.  I do want CoW and the random stripwins are nice I just don't think its necessary.  Give me mana!  

Then Hurkyl's Recall main for Mana Vault (I would like this to be a Mox BUG, preferably sapphire ).  Vault is a great tinkertoy and gets around chalice @0.  I don't KnowMaD if this is the best decision along with the next one but I will explain.  I do feel much more comfortable in game one vs Inky and Shops with Hcall in.  I have at this moment after the changes four slots that are being seriously looked at and Hcall has a good chance of being main again. Right now I will play without.  

Out one Duress, out one Mindslaver.  Duress was a tough call because duress is one of my main control cards.  Most of the time I did not want to blind flip this to BBE so I am trying only three and I am pleased so far.  No Goblins no Slaver, sure I could go inf. and slave once or twice for the win.  I did keep it in my side for certain match ups that are just plain fun to slave.  (ANT, get wrecked)  

These two slots became extra robots to tinker.  I said that three bots has always been a choice of mine with tinker.  It is one of the reasons I like some of them to be blue.  I really just wanted slots to play with as I choose. Sphinx of the Steal wind was recommended along with the sphinx that messes with life totals.  They don't have to be robots either.  I am open to just about anything that gives this that little extra tweak.  An example would be - 2 bots + 1 Intuition +1 Hurkyl's.

Both goblins came out for two Elvish Spirit Guides.  This was only natural seeing how I have played the ink of ESG, and wanted more mana especially green.

With that..

Aggro, control, combo

GushbraidTinker

1x Cabal Pit
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty rainforest
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Island

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring


4x Force of Will
3x Duress                      
2x Rebuild
1x Burning Wish
      
1x Zuran Orb
1x Fastbond
1x Crucible of Worlds

4x Gush
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Cunning Wish
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Intuition
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Time Walk
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Regrowth
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
 
1x Sphinx of the Steal Wind
2x Lorescale coatl
3x Elvish Spirit Guide

SB

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Balance
1x Pyroclasm
1x Timetwister
2x Ravenous Trap
1x Stroke of Genius  
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Nature's Claim
1x Sword's to Plowshares
1x Duplicant
1x Inkwell Leviathan
                        |\    
 Edit:   ()####{)@(};;////;;;;;;;////;;;;;;;;////;;;;;>
                        |/
Darkblast?

I'm thinking - Sharuum for either one more Rebuild or add the Ponder back in and have one Preordain in the sideboard.  Edit:  Went with both just to try.

A couple of other notes.  The lands are not bad. I tried fitting one more basic but it just didn't seem right for now.  The Badland is needed. there are times all I want is a BR land.  Pithing Needle still stings.

The only decks I got to test this against was a URStax list that I liked and played against a lot.  Until my deck became more focused this list crush me sooo goood, I loved it.  My deck would just fold because of the flow.  I have to also add quick that not once did I try to side in anything.  I wanted to get the best out of my G1 and will work on the deck tweaks and side now that the base is better prepared.  I did keep in mind how good ESG + Claim is going to be and along with other plays of the sort.  After the initial changes this is a much better match where I tend to grind it out for the win.    

And a SelkieStrike.  This was actual back and forth the few times we went at it.  I am much more confident after the changes.  I have Tinker and that version didn't.

Now that I am settled a bit.  I will be looking for many more decks to play against.  I have a hunch that TPS will out race me by a mile.  I had four chalices before, Mindbreak or Ravenous Trap maybe.   I will also get game and hand samples if anyone wants that sort of thing.

I'm not done but its getting better.        


                                                                                                                                                        Later,  DrKnowMaD

And this is why I post on the drain.  After looking through the rules (how did I do that:)) and two months of playing this card against people no one said other wise, Thank you!  I fixed it.  That does make a difference.  The question then is Bloodbraid Elf even worth it.  I would like to hope and will keep trying for now.  



This actual has never been a problem with the way the deck plays out.  I originally had more tropicals and eventual changed one to Taiga and the other was Tolarian Academy.  I put the academy in another deck and forgot that I liked it in here and might put it back in.  It would be much better with more moxen,  but generally what isn't.


    @DubDub  -  Thank you for you time and thought.  It looks like you are suggesting a straight up tinker build with the use of BBE.  That is kinda what I wanted to move away from a bit, and with the elf not quite being what I thought, I think it to be more important to have some other outs.  Concerning the orb, it was one of the last card entered.  since I have been more than happy with the Inf. mana combo, its what lets me not care about how many sphere effects end up across from me.  Also, I run welder, regrowth, and ywill, the only hate I care about usually is graveyard.  I have yet to be upset to blind flip this card seeing as I usually already have one or the other piece plus means of finishing the job.  I almost never blind flip the elf, I usual set it up first.  I will have to play more careful with the spell being counterable, Duress helps a lot.  Which is funny because in previous games duress was one of the only cards I didn't like blind flipping.

I am much more open to move the Slaver package.  Though both the mindslaver and welders alone have saved my ass and won me games.  If I did I would most def. add Intuition and or twist.  Actually I could see adding intuition instead of fact.

What about two Eternal Witnesses and a diving top or two?

The deck does seem unfocused and originally it was more streamed with only tinker and slaver with the ability to swing in for beats.  I just recently added the orb and wish for the outs that I had been needing at times.  

Hull breach is a card that's sitting on the top pile.  I think you where right to suggest this and I will find out if the mana is too intensive.   Seals are very good whenever I played them before but without goof I think the the split second one (kgrip) would be a better 1-1. What about Greater Gardadon in the side?

Jace is great but yeah I am saving up for other spells first.

Again thanks and I will mull over the suggestions more while playing next time.

                        
                                                                                                                                                                              Lates,  DrKnowMaD

P.s - I looked up that creature and it wasn't nearly as good as someone was telling me.  I do like the new Myr Battlesphere though.

The new list is down the thread!    
    
     So I have been unsure of how to go about introducing the latest incarnation of my pet deck.  I could go ahead and bore with the details of the last few years, instead I will simply post the list and go from there.
  

   Aggro, control, combo
        Gushbraid Elf

1x Strip Mine
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Tiaga
1x Island

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring

4x Force of Will
4x Duress
1x Hurkyl's Recall

1x Zuran Orb
1x Fastbond
1x Crucible of Worlds

4x Gush
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Time Walk
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Burning Wish
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Regrowth
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker

1x Mindslaver

1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Inkwell Leviathan
2x Goblin Welder
3x Bloodbraid Elf

SB.

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Pyroclasm
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Innocent Blood
1x Rebuild
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Nature's Claim
2x Duplicant
2x Triskelion
1x Library of Alexandria


   Ok, lets start with the obvious.  Bloodbraid Elf is a card I have been wanting to play for some time now.  At first this creature was merely a thought.  Then it slowly worked its way into some fishy, mountain like builds ( one was Liquimetal ) ex. ex...  I quickly realized that bloodbraid was the card I really wanted to play and not so much the others.  I took my emptystorm list and added one bloodbraid.  The interaction was very fun, refreshing, and I found myself setting up bloodbraid/ywill a lot.  The only problem was I  have been playing mostly storm or grow variants as my main deck for years now and wanted something a just little different. I want to add that not only do I get free spells which is the cake but a 3/2 hasty is pretty tasty icing too.  Especially when you have a golem opposite of you.

   Goblin welder, this is my other creature of choice.  I have also successfully ran a pair of these in a storm build before.  Many friends said it seemed awkward until they were beat with his mana producing properties alone.  He also enables me to have good board control while recurring combo pieces.  

   Burning wish is one of the last cards to enter  the list along with the small wishboard.  There were times I would go broken and think damn I could just finish this now if I had access to tendrils, though I did not want it in the deck.  BB for a card that I might need, no way.  Burning wish on the other hand opens me way up and has yet to be dead draw.  I did have Empty the Warrens in case I needed a storm card with red or for a small goblin play but as of yet I have not needed it.

   Mindslaver is one of the cards that's a personal choice.  I have always enjoyed ControlSlaver whenever playing with and against it.  I knew I wanted welders and always loved slaving people so I added it.  I have in the few months testing this morphed into slaver mode and won many games that way.  

   So there's red (plus wheel), now I need green too.  Well what to use, green creatures like goof?  I already felt that I was running a lot of creatures as is.  The only other creature in consideration was Eternal Witness.  Again it just didn't feel right nor necessary for me, maybe someone else would prefer that route.  It does work well with bloodbraid.  No I was looking for something else, Regrowth, Fastbond, and Crop Rotation was more like it.  Crop never made it in but I am still up for trying it if anyone thinks it could work wonders.  If I play Fastbond than I should see if Gush could work.  That means adding blue.  At that point I figured what the earth,  as long as I'm already going to weaken my manabase I might as well go all out and add more colors.  Black had what I wanted to help fill out both
my tutor/broken package and my control game.  White on the other hand had little to offer.  I did really want to play Balance and there were a few times I tried to justify the incursion.  My mana is already sketchy.  Yes gush, crucible, regrowth, and ywill all help but I am still taking a risk.  I'll get back to talking about my mana later.

   Crucible of Worlds was and easy include for me.  It was my top pick in fifth dawn and have had good times with a singleton.  I don't think I need any more, if I wanted more I think I would put much more focus on the card and its abilities.

   Zuran Orb was another card that was added towards the end of this process.  At first I never even thought of adding it.  I figured that that combo was a different deck and it would just clutter things up.  After playing a bunch a games with various friends I was flipping through my cards and realized my mistake in dismissing it.  The thing about these three cards as a combination is that non of them are dead or useless on their own.  Each one has a separate function and their powers combined is like calling on Voltron.

   Tinker.  Do I need to say much about this?  Do I need to play bots even?  I do believe that the answer to the second question is yes.  Why wouldn't I play at least one.  The main question I have is the classic what bots to use.  I have used all sorts and eventually chose quickie mart because it's blue, has shroud, and just plain good.  Sharuum again is blue, has flying for evasion and pests like predator, and is another recursion piece for the puzzle.  These bots could probably be just about whatever.  The only two bots I would like to try are Blightsteel Colossus, or the time walking annihilator thing.  I can't remember the name, starts with an E, I think

   A good amount of times playing UB I ran Force of Will and Duress.  I tried it again, and again I have been pleased.

   Originally I had two Diabolic Edicts main.  This wasn't bad but I found myself wanting Hurkyl's a lot.  When I put burning wish in I moved hurk main and added the sorcery edicts to the side.  I had also tried echoing truth and again liked it fine but this latest configuration has been better.

   Speaking of the sb.  I have not taken this to a serous event nor have I planed to yet.  This is a pet project and I would like it to be there eventually.  Being realistic, as of now this deck has some wrinkles to smooth out.  The side being one of them.  Mine is based on a quick throw together so I would have something to work on and also while playing with friends and such.  To my understanding Tezzdecks, oath, shops (mainly mud and mono red), some storm and fish are going to be make up the majority.  I honestly wouldn't mind scraping the whole thing and reboot.  I have no dredge plan.  I rarely come across dredge but it would be nice to know I got some sort o f game plan.  Maybe pithing needle E.E. or the bog as some choices.  Darkblast?

   The other thing I would like to address and a weakness of the deck is the lands.  Like I said before I do have help for stabilizing, and I do want all four colors.  That said, I am sure there is a much better configuration.  I just don't own the cards (yes this is non prox.) and haven't taken the time to fully study the situation to find out what else I could use.  The four scalding tarns hit everything I need but leave me open to needle pains.  Moons can also be a bother, I have been able to play around and through them but its not easy.  Pyroclasm helps.

    The four Mishra's Factorys aren't going anywhere.  I have to apologize for lying when I said bloodbraid was what I started with.  My four seasons factories have been in every pet since I bought them.  There interaction with both welder and tinker make it much more possible to play those cards.  They also fit into the aggro and control aspects of the deck.  

   Some things that I wouldn't mind trying.  First another mox, probably sapphire.  Its not that I have had any problems running short on artifact accelerants, I would just like to see how it plays.  Is this a mistake?  Should I run the full set or at least the on color somehow?  I do like not worrying much about chalice or rod being played against me. I should proxy it and see but what cards to remove.  With that said is Null Rod a good inclusion?  I did have Chalice of the Void in the side at one point.  Maybe a more mana denial route with wastelands instead of factory?.  Add in thorns or something?  I am sure thats not the route I want to go seeing as I already basically tried that, but it is a possibility.  Another question I have is about my casting costs.  Does cards like Fact or Fiction push my curve to high?  Should I put ponder back in?  I personally like fact much more and haven't noticed to many situations that I had rather had ponder while is was playing but there were times I did want fact so I put it in.

   My goals in this post are,  A)  I would like an outside perspective on the list that I am working with.  Am I way off my rocker or is there something blatantly being missed? And,  B)  to find out what others are doing if anything with Bloodbraid Elf.  



There are probably a bunch of things that I missed and I don't have test results written down but I will work on getting more information out as this project comes along.


                        
                                                                                                                                                                       Thanx, Lates,
                                                                                                                                                                        DrKnowMaD

Hey, haven't been on in some time and was catching up on some reading when I stumbled on this refreshment.  Very cool.

Trinket Mage should be in here, that was a great idea.  I would also like to try the two Terastodons again with one Engineered Explosives.



                                                                                                                                        Lates,  DrKnowMaD



                                                                                                   

Well I think FlyFry has said most of what I would have at this point so I will simply come from another perspective.  Not only am I one of those casual players, I am also a nomadic crazy teacher that has taught this game too so many people and sat at a great number of coffee shop/kitchen tables all over this country.  With that said at no time that I can remember did anyone have a problem grasping mana burn.  It is just one of those rules that is simple and adds so much to the game.  If someone did have a problem it was only with remembering the phase changes. I think cleaning that up with the mana pools is fine though saying it is for the casual player is ridicules seeing how they already had a hard time with just the phases.  Now they want them to know every single step, I can hear it already "are you sure thats a step."  (Twice now I have completely disagreed with Explosion on this subject, play much Storm?  Really... scoop?  No topdeck?)  Anyways, I do believe that mana burn is something WotC should not completely removed. 

When I do play something competitive and put money into this game it is usually Limited because of building skill and understanding combat stack tricks.  As do the majority of people I have played Limited with.  So how does pissing off the crowd that gives WotC a good deal of business good for them.  They say it is to get more people to play by making it easier to introduce but the facts people are going to play or not.  Out of all the people that I have introduced and taught this game too, the ones that are truly interested will learn and the ones that are not don't.  Simple.

I would also like to restate something someone else already did and that is a lot of casual play groups I have played with Do Make Up Their Own Rules whenever it is more convenient or easier for the group.  A lot, not all, but the great deal if not close to majority.  If one rule seems stupid, it was simply gone.  Has anyone heard or said "one or no lands, no problem just take seven new cards".  Casual is as casual does.

One last thing for now.  Thanks Noah for showing people how to properly articulate this game in an imaginative and flavorful way that is understandable and makes the stack make sense.  If that wasn't clear enough for someone (sorry Explosion) then well I just don't know what to say.  I know they can play my game.  It was designed to be simple and fun and expansive for a wide audience.


Lates for now,
Dr.KnowMaD

Oh, and I still like to use my burning wish do things like walk will walk wish walk, and other esque tricks.  I think WotC just Exiled me somewhat.

Ok, I fell a little silly for not thinking but Reminisce should do the trick also.


lates,
Dr.KnowMaD