Your right, Iona needs to be in there.  She's too good to not be included.  

So, I don't get two cards from the Horn when playing fetchys?  But I do get two mana from the Cobra right?

Serracollector thanks for the additional recommendations!  Steel Hellkite and/or Memnarch are screaming to be on the sb.  Maze of Ith really needs to be there as well, as with any combo deck some games the deck just stalls and won't go off for a few turns.  Autumn's Veil could be interesting, if only it were a cantrip.  It might still warrant a sb slot though.  I came up with a few myself.  Mystic Snake and Eternal Witness should probably be there.  I updated the sb list above.  Also, in the slot maindeck I have a Brainstorm.  Should that be an SDT?  Or is Brainstorm better?

EDIT:  Another comment

I added a Flooded Strand to the sideboard as from testing I found it useful in the event that I am to stall out while I have a Horn of Greed on the table I can use Living Wish to grab Flooded Strand, play it draw a card, sac search for a land, play it draw another card hopefully drawing me into more combo pieces or more land in which to draw more cards.  So far I've used this tactic twice in my testing and it has pulled me out of a stall.  Another addition is Bazaar of Baghdad which is probably better depending on the situation. 

Hellkite Overlord?  Great idea!  I goldfished the new build a bit and it's really fun to play.  Smashing face with a hasted flying trample 35/8 dragon on turn two is wicked fun!  I also managed to Braingeyser for 75 on turn three one of the games.  I was testing Enlightened Tutor in place of Exploration and was fairly happy with the results but I think Lim-Dul's Vault does a better job as you don't have to splash another color plus it pitches to FoW.  Here's some changes that I've made and the current build I'm testing.  

DIFFERENT STROKES 1.5

Combo:
4x Horn of Greed
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Gush
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Fastbond

Search / Utility / Draw:
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampirc Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Regrowth
1x Brainstorm / Sensei's Divining Top

Counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain

Kill:
3x Living Wish
1x Braingeyser

Mana:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Island
2x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea

Sideboard:
1x Hellkite Overlord
1x Monk Realist
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Man-o'-War
1x Eternal Witness
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Mystic Snake
1x Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Flooded Strand
?
?


Any other suggestions?  Anyone else testing this?  It's really fun to play!

EDIT:  Updated the sideboard

Ahhh.. You are right Dehla I wasn't thinking about that.  You would need a turn one Mox of any color +Land cast Stasis then turn two Forsaken City + Root Maze for a turn two lock.  You could lock on the first turn with a God draw.

I would love to test Garruk.  Getting two GG for his casting cost could be a bitch though.  It's hard enough to get the BG for Squandered Resources.

The deck really needs Root Maze or Frozen Aether turn 1 or two otherwise a quicker win condition other than Black Vise under the softlock.  Tinker + Sphinx would be good if it weren't so conditional. 

Thanks Yep and everyone else.  I'm taking all responses into account.  The deck really just needs hours of testing against good and bad matchups.  Lately I've been testing with 4x maindeck Root Maze in place of the Despotic Scepter and the 3 Frozen Aether which was recommended by Serracollector and some of the other users.  I have to say that Root Maze is hard to work around because you really rely on Forsaken City to keep Stasis going which forces you to pitch cards to pay for Stasis' upkeep.  Although it is harder to work with it NEEDS to hit the table turn one.  In all of the testing I've been doing with the deck the soft lock is not enough as I once had thought, even with the soft lock I was still getting raped by combo.  That being said and to take the pressure off Forsaken City I've replaced the Howling Mines with Squandered Resources.  Squandered Resources is nice with Root Maze on the table because even though your own lands come into play tapped you can simply sac them to pay for Stasis.  Doing so even a few times helps you stock your hands with cards to pitch to Forsaken City and/or buys you turns until you draw into Forsaken City.  I haven't tested Garruk or Jace yet although I will.  My main gripe with these guys is that I run into the same problem I was having with Frozen Aether and that is getting them on the table. 

The optimal hand is a second turn lock.  Turn one play a Land tap for green Root Maze.  Turn two Forsaken City tap it and the previous land for two and cast Stasis.  This is a turn two lock.  From here on out you are basically pitching the card you are drawing each turn to pay for Stasis' upkeep.  That being said it is dangerous to cast FoW as it chops your hand size down.  Ideally you want to draw into Gush to give you more cards to pitch to Forsaken City.  Eventually you will draw into another Forsaken City and you will pitch two cards one turn untapping them both.  One of them will pay for Stasis and the other will pay for Black Vise or even Feldon's Cane for the kill.  That is why it is important not to pitch a card to FoW.  You need at least two cards in hand to get two Forsaken Citys untapped.

@Yep  Like Despotic Scepter Claws of Gix is nice and they are both a bit of a catch 22.  Claws force you to use that one land to sac Stasis and puts you in the dilema of making the decision, should I use this land to sac Stasis or should I use this land to pay for its upkeep?  That being said, I'm thinking Chain of Vapor is better than both of them and that neither is necessary.

You are right about Howling Mine.  It is nice under the soft lock as it combos nicely with Vise and gives you extra cards to pitch to Forsaken City and/or helps you draw into islands.  After more testing I've come to the conclusion that Squandered Resources may be better.  Or I could go your route and compliment those slots with nice suite of counters. such as Thwart and the like.

I'm with you on Spell Pierce too.  It's pretty decent and I would run 4 of them if Daze wasn't simply better in this deck, after testing I really needed counters that could be cast when I simply didn't have the mana.  That being said, -2 Spell Pierce
 +2 Daze.

I originally ran a lone Lim-Dul's Vault along side of my other tutors.  It is an instant, but it also costs one more mana.  The deck does need at least one more tutor though and I'm considering re-including it main deck.

For the rest of you, I WILL get to testing Garruk and Jace, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

@Delha  I like your style!  Thanks for the suggestions, they simply make more sense than what I had going.  Good call on Exploration being replaced with Enlightened Tutors.  IMO, five Tutors total might be a bit high so maybe -3 Exploration +2 Enlightened Tutor +1 Brainstorm, SDT or Merchant Scroll?  If we go with the white splash should we add maybe Argivian Find to compliment Regrowth in the event Fastbond gets countered?  Yawgmoth's Will is a bit limited without Rituals. 

Living Wish is a great suggestion, I do like the maindeck Gemstone Mine however, and I'm really wanting to add another but am limited with space.  Emrakul smashes face for 15, and I love that he's uncounterable.  He does require two turns to kill even though he Time Walks you giving him an almost hasted type effect.  Are we overlooking any other creatures that can kill the turn they come into play?  Shivan Hellkite is probably too expesive, but something along those lines that you can dump obsene amounts of mana into for the kill.  Is there a pump creature with haste we're overlooking?  If we do end up going that route we might want to change the deck title from Different Strokes to Who's the Boss. (;

Should there be a maindeck removal slot such as Chain of Vapor or should we outsource removal to the sideboard with Living Wishable creatures such as Monk Realist?


So here's what I'm thinking:
-3 Exploration
-1 Kaerevek's Torch
-1 Stroke of Genius
-2 Island
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Tolarian Academy
-1 Strip Mine

+2 Enlightened Tutor
+3 Living Wish
+3 Tundra
+2 SDT / Merchant Scroll / Brainstorm

Sideboard:
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Strip Mine
1x Emrakul
1x Uktabi Orangutan?
1x Monk Realist?
1x Man O' War?

More suggestions?

@Delha  Turbo Nevyn used to hold it's own back in the day winning more than it's share of tourneys back when GAT was still a fairly new deck.  You are correct though.  The deck (like it was back in the day) is fragile relying on Fastbond as I mentioned.  Often times you will get things going with Exploration - Horn of Greed and draw into either Fastbond or one of the Tutors.  More often than not you will hit a Vampirc Tutor or Imperial Seal and be forced to stack Fastbond onto the top of your deck then play a land and draw it under Horn of Greed or Gush. You don't really need the Crucible, Academy, Zorb combo to go off unless you are planning to kill with Stroke or Geyser.  Cobras will generate more than enough mana for the Kaerevek's Torch on their own.  Infact generally I've generated 35+ mana which is more than enough room to cast Kaerevek's Torch for 30 and still be able to back it up with 2 Mana Drains not to mention any Force of Wills that might be in hand.  The deck is however a bit slower than some of the faster combo decks out there like Dragon and Long but after Fastbond hits the table with Horn of Greed it is hard to stop it from going off.  It might have bit more of a reactionary controlish nature with Mana Drains maindeck to get Horn of Greed into play.  You are right about no maindeck removal.  Perhaps a lone Chain of Vapor as I mentioned above should be main deck.

Ok, with the unrestriction of Gush I wanted to bring into discussion the old school combo deck Turbo Nevyn that was neutered when Gush was restricted.  For those of you who don't remember, Turbo Nevyn (which has nothing to do with Nevinyrral's Disk) was a combo deck that centered around Fastbond and Horn of Greed to draw your entire deck on turn 1, 2 or 3 and then drop a Glacial Chasm and cast Sickening Dreams discarding your hand and hitting your opponent for 40 plus damage.

We now have Lotus Cobra and Crucible of Worlds which we didn't have back in the day.  I'm wondering if we can see the return of Turbo Nevyn, with an alternative kill from all of the mana that is generated through the Cobra.  I've tested it a bit and the Lotus Cobra speeds things up a quite a bit from the old school builds and the extra mana it generates can be used for Mana Drains to push the kill through and also works well if you need to Stroke or Braingeyeser yourself to draw into more land.  Basically, play  Fastbond, Horn of Greed, Lotus Cobra, drop lots of land, draw lots of cards, Gush your lands back to your hand replay them draw lots more cards and generate lots of mana off the Cobra and/or Crucible, Fastbond, Academy, Zorb combo and then Stroke of Genius, Braingeyser or Kaerevek's Torch for the kill.  Kaerevek's Torch is optimal A). Because you don't need to generate as much mana as you do Stroke and Geyser.  B).  Kaerevek's Torch has the nifty ability to avoid being countered.  

Crucible of Worlds can do 3 things with Fastbond on the table:  1) Reuse Fetchlands over and over on the same turn drawing you lots of cards and generating lots of mana (this is only necessary if you are not drawing into enough lands with the Horn of Greed).  2).  Strip all of your opponents land away in one turn with Strip Mine making it unlikely for them to counter your kill.  3). Gain lots life through Zuran Orb, which is necessary as you get punished by Fastbond and Fetchlands everytime you use them.  That being said you generally want to be sacking Tolarian academy right after you tap it for 5+ mana, then replay it and do the same.  This is certainly not necessary if you are going to kill with Kaerevek's Torch as you won't generally need more than 22 mana, but killing with Stroke and Geyser is a little more difficult to do as it is a bit harder to generate 50+ mana by the Cobras alone unless you get them out early.

One thing I will point out while piloting this deck is that you will have the tendency to deck yourself if you are not careful.  Two Horn of Greed on the table is optimal, any more is dangerous.  One is optimal if you get Crucible and Fastbond combo working.  Although I will say, try to  stack your Cobras up to generate optimal amounts of mana then go for the kill after you've drawn most of your deck.

I really wanted to squeeze in another Gemstone Mine, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll and Yawgmoth's Will but simply could not find the room.  Should Regrowth be replaced with any of these?  Or should I include both Regrowth and Yawg's Will in the event Fastbond gets countered.  Do I need another Island?  Is there enough land?  It seems pretty sick as it is!  Suggestions are welcome, feel free and proxy this deck up and let me know what you think.


DIFFERENT STROKES 1.0

Total Cards: 60

Combo: 18
4x Horn of Greed
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Gush
1x Fastbond
3x Exploration
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb

Search / Draw / Utility: 6
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Regrowth

Control: 8
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain

Kill: 3
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Braingeyser
1x Kaerevek's Torch

Mana Sources: 25
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Strip Mine
1x Gemstone Mine
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea

@Swawagon, Zeeker and the rest of you who've commented.  You guys might be right.  I've been testing it to see how it fairs.  So far, I've only tested the current build against four decks.  First I wanted to see how it fairs against limited disruption aggro such as speed combo goblins.  Usually aggro will destroy control, but not in this case it went 3 and 0.  Next I tested it against Dragon and found the opposite results, 0 and 3.  Then I played it against a buddy of mine who was playing a scrubby Necro Donate and went 1 and 2.  Then I played it against Stax and lost again 0 and 3.  So it still needs some work if it's even viable at all.  Chronatog will kill the Stax matchup, so I'm considering -3 Vise +3 Chronatog,  Root Maze would kill the Dragon match up and most combo outside of Ichorid and really needs to hit the tabe turn one where as I've been having problems getting Frozen Aether out and usually doesn't hit the table until it's too late.  I'm going to test it against Oath next and see how it fairs. 

Zeeker and the rest of you guys that have recommended Jace, Root Maze, Perilous Research and Enlightened Tutors proxy up your builds and let me know the test results.  It definetly needs some work. 

@Gambit   Proxy it up just how it is and then give it a couple of test runs and let me know what you think.  I think you will be surprised.  Its a bit difficult to play at first but once you get the feel for the deck you will see just how resilient it is.  One hint, although it's scary don't be afraid to slap down a Stasis with only 3 mana sources out.  Two to pay for Stasis and the 3rd to pay it's first upkeep.  You WILL draw into (or already have in your hand) a Gush, Forsaken City, Despotic Scepter or Chain of Vapor to keep it going.  Tricks with Forsaken City can let you slip a Vise or two into play during the soft lock.

I'd love to squeeze in more off color moxen even if it is simply one or two more but can't quite find the room.  They do come in handy.  Everytime I've drawn a Mox Jet in my opening hand I can slap down a soft lock Stasis on turn two.  Not sure what I'd cut especially since I'm still a bit ass hurt over the loss of Lim-Dul's Vault which I cut for the 3rd Frozen Aether.

Fetchlands are not great with Stasis only because they thin your deck of Islands and you want to be drawing into Islands to keep Stasis alive.  I was toying with another Stasis idea which included Fetchlands, Crucible of Worlds and Stasis and/or Zuran Orb, Crucible and Stasis.  But that is a completely different deck and falls prey to graveyard hate.

Eastman's Tinker + Sphinx seems not shitty with all of the search.  Possibly -4 Black Vise and +2 Moxen +Tinker + Sphinx.  Or at least on the sideboard in the event of Chalice for 1.

I could use help with the sideboard as well.  So far I'm thinking:
4x  Leyline of the Void
3x Propaganda
3x Null Rod?
3x Chronatog?
Tinker + Sphinx?

It needs some more testing against the main archetypes.

@waffles  Never thought of the Chronatog vs. Stax matchup, nice call.  Sideboard for sure in a heavy Stax meta.

I'm having crazy good results with this current build.  Give it a spin and goldfish up a couple of hands at MTG Deck Builder, I think you guys might be impressed at how resilient it is:  http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/17672

@beder  I like your build, and you are right, we have a totally different approach to Stasis.  Spell Pierce is tight and it's a tough call between it and Daze.  I was considering adding another Daze to the deck upping it to 8 counter spells, but now I'm thinking two Daze and 2 Spell Pierce is correct.  Thwart is a bit more conditional and isn't useful until at least turn three and thats if you have 3 islands in play.  I like the Lotus Cobra engine, I'll have to toy around with your build a bit, but yes they are completely different decks.  Lotus Cobra is simply screaming combo and might fit nicely into the old school Turbo Nevyn combo deck that was neutered when Gush was restricted back in the day.  It centered around Gush, Fastbond, Exploration and Horn of Greed to draw your entire deck and then killed with Sickening Dreams and Glacial Chasm.

@meadbert  (;

@Serracollector  Good point about the Gush meta not being a healthy environment for Stasis.  Root Maze is sick, I love that it is a one drop and that it munches most combo decks on it's own, it really is hard to work with in Stasis though.  I've tried and tried but haven't quite had the results I'm having with Frozen Aether.  The problem with Aether is that it hits the table later in the game but it doesn't punish you like Root Maze.  I'm considering adding another to up the chances of drawing it, extras can be pitched to FoW.  I like Chronotog simply because it is a two drop and doesn't get neutered to Chalice for 1.  I haven't fleshed out a sideboard yet, but Chronatog will be there along with Propaganda, Root Maze, Null Rod, and possibly Tormod's Crypt and/or Planar Void.

Over all the deck is screamingly disruptive and often I get a kill before a lock. 

Here's the current list I've been testing:

MIAMI VISE  1.5

Lock Down:
4x Stasis
4x Gush
3x Frozen Aether
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Howling Mine
1x Despotic Scepter

Draw / Search:
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall

Counters:
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Daze

Kill:
4x Black Vise

Mana Sources:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
4x Underground Sea
2x Underground River
4x Forsaken City
12x Island

MIAMI VISE:  Gush based Neo Stasis

Gentlemen, its been a long time since I've posted in the forums.  I've been an avid reader off and on for the last 8 years, rarely do I post, but thought I might bring up the subject of one of my favorite deck archetypes (Stasis) for the sake of the unrestriction of Gush.  

This is by no means a primer or the be all end all build, but rather a thread to get a Stasis discussion going whether or not it's even viable.  I've been playing Stasis since the Ice Age days when the only answer to the undisputed champion at the time "The Necro Deck" was "Turbo Stasis."  This build brings a more aggro approach as it often kills with a soft lock when a Vise or two hits the table early game.  For this reason I'm considering adding a fourth Black Vise to increase the chances of early softlock kills, plus it combos nicely with Ancestral as the finisher under one or two Vises.  Chronotog and Time Vault builds go for more of a lock approach, however I've been pleased with cheap soft lock kill provided by Black Vise.  Perhaps, to mix it up a bit and not get totally raped by cards such as Extirpate, it might be a good idea to run a back up kill such as Chronotog.  I believe the unrestriction of Gush really makes the Stasis archetype more playable as it gives you lands to replay to keep Stasis alive, it also nets you more cards to pitch to Forsaken City.  I normally would never advocate Howling Mine in any other deck than Stasis as it nets your opponent card advantage, however with a Stasis lock going card advantage is moot.  That being said Howling Mine serves two purposes aside from Black Vise synergy:  A).  It increases your chances of drawing into Islands to keep Stasis alive.  B).  Like Gush, it gives you extra cards to pitch to Forsaken City.  That being said, Wasteland is major threat when depending on the City, however the deck does quite well top decking Islands with Gush and Howling Mine to keep your Stasis alive and often Forsaken City isn't even necessary.  Despotic Scepter is there to destroy Stasis in the event you draw into another Stasis (which you will), however with 4 main deck Chain of Vapor it might not be necessary and it's slot could easily serve as a fourth Vise, Howling Mine or Daze.  I've considered splashing Green for Root Maze which wrecks most combo decks and / or Squandered Resources to keep Stasis alive, but I'm not sure either is necessary.  I know there are a ton of new cards out there and would love some suggestions, criticism and feedback.  Discuss!

UPDATED:  10.19.10

MIAMI VISE 1.5:  60 Cards

Soft and Hard Lock Mechanisms:  19  (this doesn't count the real lock mechanism Forsaken City listed under Mana Sources)
4x Stasis
3x Frozen Aether
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Despotic Scepter
3x Howling Mine
4x Gush

Kill:  4
4x Black Vise

Search / Draw:  4
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Ancestral Recall

Control:  8
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Spell Pierce

Mana Sources:  25
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
4x Forsaken City
4x Underground Sea
2x Underground River
12x Island

EDIT: spelling

Ok, its been a while and I've come under several different aliases in the past 7 or so years, regardless, I was curious about the T1 communities' thoughts on Bitterblossom.  With several new strategies added to black in the last couple of years such as "Dark Confidant" and "Thoughtseize" etc.. I was wondering if there was the possibility of a new style of aggro / control (either or)  build using some of these synergistic pieces.  Stax has "Smokestack"... Black has "Braids, Cabal Minion".  Old-school Pox decks ran "Pox"... Now there is "Smallpox".  With Bitterblossom now on the scene, I feel I can see two decks (maybe a combination of both) possibly hold their own.  Ideas?  Nether Void? CotW? Duress? Negator? This could get ugly...?  or No?

Feel free to chime in!

Hi, I've been around the forum for several years but rarely post and have actually opened a new account recently due to loss of my password.

Anyway, on to the deck!  I've always been a big fan of rogue decks in general, mostly incorporating old ideas with new ones and bringing life back to old combos with new cards and ideas.  So far, with some help after reading through the "Mountains Win Again" thread, and a few hours of card searching and play testing I've had some extraordinary results with what I feel could become something fairly competitive.  Mainly because it packs just enough disruption coupled with aggro beats to stall my opponent and then finish with an explosive amount of draw and enchanted creatures. 

I've wasted enough time on WG Control Enchantress builds.  All of which were decent, but either lacked the prison provided by Parfait or the speed of RG Beatz.

The list:

R/G Enchantress Beatz
==============

ENCHANTMENTS:  20
3x Seal of Fire
3x Seal of Primordium
2x Ancestral Mask
4x Rancor
4x Root Maze
4x Keen Sense

DRAW:  4  (8 TOTAL counting 4 Keen Sense)
4x Argothian Enchantress

BEATZ:  19 
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Gorilla Shaman 
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

MANA: 17  (29 TOTAL counting BoP and Spirit Guides)
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Pedal
1x Mox Emerald
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Karplusan Forest
2x Forest


SIDEBOARD: 15
4x Ground Seal
4x Black Vise
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Seal of Fire


So far I've tested and refined this deck list for a week or so and have come up with amazing results.  I haven't had the opportunity to test it against the full gauntlet but have had some sick results against Parfait, Stax, TPS, and Neo SUI and the results have been tremendous. 

For obvious reasons this deck kills Parfait and Stax.  The fact that the deck runs Rancor main really punches holes in the theory of Smokestack as I can sack and replay it every turn.  As far as Parfait is concerned, the deck simply out draws and out speeds my modernized Parfait build (thanks to the new Parfait threads that it was built after).  Neither of my Parfait and Stax builds have had a chance.

It has been beating up on TPS with the main deck Root Maze and ToA on the sb, however I haven't played it against faster combo such as Ichorid nor Dragon which might give it a better run for its money.

In all honesty its worst matchup might be aggro control.  This I've had the least amount of testing.  I'd be curious to see how it fairs against Fish, but Oath is what really worries me.  This is just speculation though.  I'd be hard pressed to see a bad match against Fish.

I would appreciate some play testing and would love to hear some new ideas!  Thanks in advance!

Good call on the turn one Root Maze not always being a feasible turn one drop.  I honestly haven't had any trouble with a second turn Meddling Mage.  I'd really like to keep them in.  Care to elaborate on their shortcomings?

What are you thoughts on True Believer?

How about speeding up the deck with the above mentioned Tarmogoyf creature set?


==========================================================================================================================

EDIT:

I didn't want to double post.  Its been a few days and I'm hoping someone see this and bumps it to the top.  I've been play testing different builds and I feel I've come up with the final deck.  I do however need help with the sb.  On its own it holds up nicely to combo and after sb it should really own.  It's very strong against Oath and the Stax matchup as well.  I haven't tested it against Fish or Goblins so I'm not positive about the aggro control match up, but with 3 main deck Plows and 1 Jitte I think it should hold its own.

Here's the list:

===================
Aggro Parfait
===================

MEN 10x
4x Dark Confidant
2x Jotun Grunt
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x True Believer

TOOLS 8x
4x Land Tax
2x Scroll Rack
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of the Worlds

SMASH 3x
3x Empyrial Armor

REMOVAL 9x
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Aura of Silence
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Balance

UTILITY 7x
4x Orim's Chant
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

MANA 23x
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Sol Ring
4x Mox Diamond
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
10x Plains
1x Swamp
===================

The one card that really stands out here is Empyrial Armor.  This has really been strong and seriously seals the deal quickly.  I had originally opted for more control cards such as Trinisphere, however with all of the draw (4x Land Tax / 4x Dark Confidant) it makes my men huge and just ends the game fast.  This helps my aggro match up (as my men are bigger than yours) and also speeds the clock significantly.    Its synergy is amazing here.  Although its main weakness is that it puts your eggs in one basket, the strengths are enormous.  If you think of it as a huge 3 cc creature with haste its amazing.  It not only combos nicely with all the draw, Ethersworn Canonist really puts the smack as you are forced to hold cards.  This puts the "Aggro" in aggro control.  Its like casting a (often) 7/7 dude (or bigger) for WW1.  If you throw it on a creature that has been around for a turn or longer (doesn't have summoning sickness anymore) its like casting a 7/7 or potentially bigger dude with haste for 3 mana.  On a Canonist, Believer, or Confidant with 7 cards in your hand he's a 9/9 or 9/8 on a Grunt he's an 11/11.

The dudes are really good.  Canonists and Believers for the combo match up.  Jotun Grunt adds to the clock with cheap beats, munches my opponents graveyard often crippling the likes of Stax and Combo, all the while acting as a Soldevi Digger or Feldon's Cane putting all my juicy removal spells back into my deck.  Dark Confidant allows me to not just rely on Scroll Rack/Land Tax combo for draw, which is often times a bitch to set up.

Removal, I do feel I could bump up Aura of Silence but often times the speed of Seal of Cleansing is nice especially in an early mana pinch.  That gives me 4 artifact/enchantment removal (Aura of Silence is great in the Stax/Combo match ups).  3 Plows and 1 Jitte should take care of creatures, and I don't need to explain Balance.

Not that they need an explanation, but the search spells (the "Tudors") are great for setting up the draw engine or for retrieving silver bullets or Empyrial Armor for the finish.

Orim's Chants is my cantrip white Time Walk allowing me to establish my defenses early or giving me another turn to smash face with an Empyrial Armored dude.

It tests well and I feel this a strong build.  I chopped the green and blue out of the original deck as I felt the mana base was a bit too suspect.  Keeping the deck White with a splash of Black really solidifies the mana base.  Not to mention the lack of duals is great as there are really no targets for an opponents Wasteland.  This deck should never get mana screw, especially with Land Tax.

If I can get the cards together I plan on bringing this to either or both of the up and coming Myriad Tournaments scheduled for November and December.  Right now I'm playing mostly with proxies as I sold my collection a year and a half ago.  So if anyone is interested in this deck and wants to see how it fairs or simply wants to help a brother out by loaning some cards give me the pm!

I could also use some suggestions on the deck in general as well as a sb.  It would be helpful if someone could fill me in on the New England metagame as I just moved out here from the West Coast.  Finally I get to play in one of these East Coast tourneys I have always read about.

All interesting ideas.  As an old school Cherry and Chocolate Parfait player of the day, I can attest you are aware how the deck works.  I'll play this deck soon in a tourney (just moved to the east coast where all the action is).

I'll definitely take the advice on cutting the Leitburs.  I might up the Scroll Rack by 1 however with 4 maindeck Confidants and 3 search spells I'm not having a lot of trouble finding one.  If I was running fetchies I might bump it to 4, but I lack a way to shuffle outside of Land Tax.

I'll test it in a tourney soon.  What are you thoughts on Ground Seal and or Root Maze on the side against combo?

Gold fish the deck a few draws.  I think you'll really like it!  4 maindeck Diamonds really pulls the tempo of the deck up to speed. 


EDIT: (wanted to elaborate and didn't want to double post)

@Meadbert:

Not a fan of Bazaar in this deck, but there is interesting synergy with Land Tax.

As an old school Cherry and Chocolate Parfait player I think I used to run 3 main deck Scroll Racks.  If I had a way of shuffling my deck more often I think I would run 4.  I might bump the count up by 1, but I feel 4 might be too many.  I'm having no problem drawing into them with all the search and Confidants.

Your right about Order of Leitbur.  He really is good on his own, but he's not great and his ability to combo out is nothing more than a neat trick.  (it is neat though)

Weathered Wayfarer:  Not a huge fan in this build but I can see it in a fishier build.  It is nice to grab Strip Mine, but he has no synergy with Scroll Rack and you have to pay an activation cost of W every turn to use his ability.

Aura of Silence:  This is old school, I really do like this one.  I might -1 Seal of Cleansing +1 Aura of Silence.

Argivian Find:  Also old school.  Not sure if it fits in this build, maybe if it was a bit less aggro and a little more control.  If you notice I'm not even running Regrowth.  It wasn't testing well as early game I was always hoping it was something either helping to set up my engine or defenses.

Ethersworn Canonist:  This card is hot!  Not sure if I want to cut Mage's for it though, maybe cut the Leitburs.  Out of curiosity why not Meddling Mage maindeck?

Sensei's Divining Top:  I would really like to test this.  Have you had any success?

Nomad's Stadium:  This might need a maindeck slot, I'd like to test this as well.

Orim's Chant:  Not sure what I'd cut.  So good though!  Notice I'm not even running Time Walk.

Children of Korliss:  Definitely going to be on the sb.  Thanks!

Ray of Revelation:  Another good one!  Maybe sb?

Wheel of Sun and Moon:  This is so good against so many decks especially combo!  What do you think of Ground Seal and/or Root Maze on sb for the combo match ups?

Pithing Needle:  sb

The red splash is a different deck altogether.  However, it could be a stronger deck than what I have posted.


What do you guys think of these different creature sets:

If I splashed red the creature set might look like:  (I've been out of the loop since 2006 and have noticed Shaman and Lavamancer aren't played in Fish anymore, is this too dated?  And why?  I would think Lavamancer are a great way to keep weenies like Welder at bay and Shamans have great synergy with Crucible combos.)
-2 Order of Leitbur
-4 Meddling Mage
-1 Seal of Cleansing
=
+2 Gorilla Shaman
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+3 Magus of the Moon


For a speedier build, how about:
-1 Seal of Cleansing
-2 Order of Leitbur
-1 CotW
=
+4 Tarmogoyph


Another option maindecking Etherworn Canonist for a better combo matchup:
-2 Order of Leitbur
-1 CotW
-1 Seal of Cleansing
=
+4 Ethersworn Canonist

Ideas?  I'm also interested Root Maze and/or Ground Seal on the sb.  Thoughts?




 

Hi, I'm new here as of late but some of you might remember me as Astro (couldn't remember my old password and have since changed email addresses so I can't retrieve it).  Recently I've been casually playing with a buddy of mine.  We are both working on rogue decks hoping to get something new and fun up and running that is at least semi competitive.  Right now I've been working on a "counterless" aggro control deck that has the ability to combo out infinite mana and/or infinite life but more often than not simply wins with creature beats. 

We've done a bit of testing against Oath and Stax, and it seems to hold its own.  At first glance it appears to have serious mana issues, but I assure you I rarely get mana screw and almost always am able to cast whatever I want (any old school Parfait player will attest to this).  This is due to the unrestriction of Mox Diamond and the beauty of Land Tax.  The deck runs on the old and dated Deck Parfait engine (Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Zuran Orb), however is much more synergistic than old builds as newer cards such as Crucible add several utilities with many of the cards such as Wasteland, Mox Diamond, or Fast Bond plus its not a control deck.

SOME STRENGTHS:

Balance: The deck is fairly explosive at dumping its hand rather quickly in the first and/or second turn.  This is due to any combination in the opening hand including Mox Diamond, Lotus, Moxen, 1 cc spells, a land play, Fastbond, and 0 drops such as Zuran Orb.  This is nice followed by an early Balance as it forces your opponent to dump their hand.  Balance is extremely synergistic with: Land Tax and/or Zuran Orb, and/or CotW plus its just bad ass on its own and doesn't really need an explanation.

Land Tax:  This is nice up against the Stax players and truly any deck pushing mana screw.  It keeps my hand full and shuffles my deck which is great for the Scroll Rack combo and is synergistic with Zuran Orb, Mox Diamond, and/or simple mana color fix.  Its the most staple card in the deck.

Fastbond: Combos smoothly in the deck with Land Tax, or by it's self as an explosive first turn play.  Not to mention its synergy with Crucible of the Worlds.  When Fastbond and CotW are in play I can either go infinite life with Zuran Orb or an infinite attack with Order of Leitbur. 

Search spells:  Demonic, Enlightened, Vampiric are all great choices for this deck as it packs several silver bullets especially depending upon what is already on the table. 

Examples:

Land Tax + Scroll Rack
Land Tax + Mox Diamond
Land Tax + Zuran Orb
Land Tax + Balance
Land Tax + Fastbond

CotW + Wasteland/Strip Mine
CotW + Wasteland/Strip Mine + Fastbond (infinite armageddon)
CotW + Zuran Orb (gain life every turn or tap land for W sac it replay it tap it again for another W)
CotW + Zuran Orb + Fastbond (infinite life and/or infinite mana)
CotW + Zuran Orb + Balance
CotW + Zuran Orb + Order of Leitbur (infinite damage)


Cards for thought:

I'm not sure about Order of Leitbur.  Sure comboing out is great but is it just a win more?  I'm not to sure on this, however a great deal of the decks wins seem to be through the combo not to mention while Order of Leitbur isn't played all that often in Vintage it is a great card on its own.  It is pro-black, pumpable, and first strike, with the ability to combo off.  I'm unsure if something might be better.

The idea of including Tarmogoyf has been tossed around a lot, but over what?  Order of Leitbur?   

Another idea has been Jotun Grunt.  I like this idea due to the fact that I can recur spells to the bottom of my library and shuffle them back in with Land Tax, plus he munches my opponents graveyard and is a W1 cc beatstick to boot.  He doesn't work with Tarmogoyf so including both is moot.

What about Duress or Though Sieze?  The deck has no counterspells so you would think it needs some way to keep my opponent from doing what they want to do.  I just don't know what I would pull to include them as I would probably want to include at least 4 of either one.  I'm just not totally sure they are necessary.  I am running enough removal STP, Seals, Balance, Jitte, plus CotW+Waste+Fastbond keeps my opponent at bay until I can set up my defenses and combo out.

For the silver bullets, what about Chains of Mephistopheles?  While Land Tax, Dark Confidant, and/or Scroll Rack "put" cards in my hand rather than "draw" them, Chains wouldn't affect me.  I see it as the "Null Rod" for card drawing.  If your not going to draw cards, why should you let your opponent?  The downside to this is that it has potential of filling my opponents graveyard with goodies to be resurrected.  Thoughts?  Yay or nay?

I've also toyed around with the idea of splashing red, one mountain and a Barbarian Ring.  I haven't warranted its inclusion due to the fact that I don't want to splash another color however with Mox Diamond and/or Land Tax I haven't had trouble adding any color I want.  For obvious reasons Barbarian Ring is useful for waxing weenies such as Welders and Fish and is recurable with CotW and/or with a Fastbond on the table I can combo out.  Let me know what you think about its inclusion.  Its one I have been thinking about for a while.



10x BEATS
4x Meddling Mage
2x Order of Lietbur
4x Dark Confidant

18x UTILITY
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Fastbond
4x Land Tax
2x Zuran Orb
2x Scroll Rack
3x Crucible of Worlds
2x Umezawa’s Jitte

8x REMOVAL
1x Balance
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Seal of Cleansing


24x MANA SOURCES
3x Wasteland
1x Stripmine
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Mox Diamond
9x Plains
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Island


The break down:
3 - 3cc
20 - 2cc
11 - 1cc
10 - 0cc
17 - Land

10 - Removal (counting Jitte)
10 - Beats
10 - Draw (plus draw combos, and not counting card advantage from CotW)
4 - Life gain (not that this is ever necessary but Zuran Orb is good on its own and Jitte is nice in a pinch, + the ability to go infinite)
3 - Search

Any other suggestions?  Maybe side board?  Or a name?