Eladamri's call isn't seeing play at instant speed so I don't think living wish has much chance at seeing play. I guess the main difference is adding white to the casting cost of eladmri's call. For this you gain instant speed and also white has plenty of targets to grab that slow the game down. In a fish/aggro deck it's comparable to D. Tutor at instant speed. You don't tie up sideboard space and you get to run 4of's instead of 3ofs with 1 of each in the board.

I have also played against goblins that got that same godhand. He played mountain for lackey, lotus for warchief, then to my amazement passed the turn!! I emptied the warrens for 8 tokens and won that game.

It amazes me the length of time this thread has been running and people still continue to do business with him. I never had any dealings with this guy through the internet so I guess I'm lucky in that regards. In person I dealt with him once with no problems. This was over 2 years ago but became aware of his shadiness through this thread and dodged him at future in person events.

I got to know one of his ex-business partners since this thread has started. He is a decent guy and if he decided to dump Stasch it is a good enough reason for me to spend my time/money elsewhere.

Great watch, I've recommended it to others already and it's been well received. Please post any links to more video's you make like this.

Looks like Mirror Gallery just became playable. =D

This just can't be true unless that number is zero. It's nothing like leyline of the void and you don't see dredgers scooping to that card except maybe some game 1's if leyline is in someone's main deck.

2 mana megrim gives them a fair chance to win where leyline does not. Bazaar twice is only 12 damage. Dredging on draw steps from there on out shouldn't be an issue to win after getting 2x bazaar activations. Really if needed 3 bazaar activations are possible and it's pretty hard to lose after 3 bazaar and 2 draw step dredges.

It seems dredge just goes off at normal speed without even needing to worry about finding a removal for 2 mana megrim.

I remember you, we went to 1 vintage event together. You played some bomberman/slaver hybrid. We carpooled with Matt, my girlfriend and myself to myriad games. Unfortunately I have moved out of the state and only come back to visit once a year for a week so no card loaning is going to be possible.

Never knew you too well as I don't think you kept playing much longer after that and I moved away not too long after as well. Anyway, glad to see your renewed interest in vintage. Hopefully you can find some people to test decks with.

Ben is too good for the tourney and is going out of town.........Or, perhaps he is afraid of losing and scheduled his trip to escape defeat!

Have a good trip Ben. Cya when you get back. I suppose I'll keep my deck sleeved up so we can battle when you return.

Sounds like the shop is his hobby and he doesn't care if he makes money or loyal customers.

I had a bad experience that your story has inspired me to share.

I go to a store holding a type 1 tournament with this being my first time in attendance. I wasn't actually going to play but I drove 2 other people to the store to play. In between rounds I traded with people that finished up early and had time to do so.

One of my trades involved me trading away a bazaar of baghdad with slight play which I valued at 200. Little did I know the shop owner had bazaar for sale for some number higher than 200 and was mad I traded mine below his sell price. He doesn't have a display case so you have to ask what he has for sale or look at a printed list of his inventory. Prior to me knowing he was mad about this I purchased some dice, deck boxes, sleeves, and maybe some other random stuff.

Later on in the day as the tournament is heading in to the finals I make some time to look at his printed inventory list. Prior to him showing me the list he tells me "you are not going to like my prices and you probably won't buy from me. I can't compete with your prices." I end up buying a play set of stifles for 28 dollars and something else which I can't recall. After I purchase the cards (my second purchase of the day) is when I find out how upset he is about the bazaar trade from earlier and how he should have had first crack at it and would have given me 200 on it. Figures he would take my money first then basically unwelcome me from his store.

I guess the 70 something dollars I spent all day plus the 2 other players in his tournament I brought at 25 each plus whatever they bought isn't any business he would like to see again.

Nice way to treat a group of first time customers. I never went back and never will. Not sure what became of the other guys that I brought with me to play.

Don't really want to share the name of the store on the forums but if you play in New England area and need to know send me a PM.

Troll must be hungry, people are still throwing food at it.

Signs you are dealing with a troll.

1) Asks for help in poorly formatted run on sentences with bad English

2) Ignores help.

3) Criticizes help.

4) Posts about interesting topics in order to get a larger viewing audience but adds nothing interesting to the discussion.

I played sideboard welders in the not too distant past to deal with several shops in the meta. Won me a lot of games and I don't remember losing any game that I resolved it. It's definitely a card I would continue to sideboard if the meta requires it and/or my deck allows for some red.

I don't see this new card making an impact. It's weaker than other options people have already listed.

One more comment about Gods eye,

If it's in play without crucible its pretty underwhelming.

If you tutor for it with expedition map you are losing a permanent to get it which makes it underwhelming.

If you have crucible of worlds out you don't need Gods eye to safely put stacks on 2 for several turns.

If you draw into Gods eye and already have stacks in play you can get a turn with stacks on 3 with minimal impact to your board.

If you draw Gods eye without stack it taps for 1 mana.

Maybe I'm missing some other scenarios where it's good. I'm still pretty sure its usefulness remains in the shop mirror when you have crucible in play. I'm not ready at this point to play Gods eye for the shop mirror when I could play red shop deck with goblin welder along with some viashino heretic sideboard.

I can see running the basic if you have colored spells in the deck. If we are talking about an artifact only list then I can't see the basic being better. I do not support running Gods eye either. I'd rather increase my taps for more than 1 mana land count or a real creature land like mishra's factory. About the only place I can see Gods eye being moderately effective might be a shop mirror match.

I don't see it strong enough to warrant a deck spot in a deck that continues to get new cards to play. You just can't fit them all in a 60 card deck now that we have been given modern tools such as thorn of amethyst and lodestone golem. I like playing a 1 of urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and often can't find room to fit that card in.

When your workshop deck is lacking key lock pieces such as tangle wire, smokestack, chalice, or null rod then yeah I have to agree. I haven't tested your aggro shop list but it seems slopped together and fairly weak against combo. I don't think any results against this deck can really count for much considering it doesn't really resemble any of the shop decks placing well lately.

To everyone else: Are you play testing against workshop decks and consistently beating them 50% or better or are your results just a handful of games in tournament play? I am asking this because play testing against workshop decks on several different nights the tally is approximately 40 wins for workshop, 5 wins for storm. None of these are sideboard games to be fair. With that said the sideboard of either deck is probably only swapping out 1 or 2 cards which will alter the results slightly but not drastically improve storm's chance.

If you want to see the decks tested ask and I'll post them I'm just short on time right now to do so. I can tell you the storm deck is within a card or 2 variation of what has been posted in this thread. The shop deck runs lodestone, sphere, thorn, chalice, tangle wire, smokestack, sculpting steel, trisk, karn.

It's worded the same as gifts ungiven. I would assume the reason it works for either card is the fact you have to find 4 cards with different names.

So I was playing karn in a multiplayer edh last night and the hand was so good I just had to share it. Would have been hard to cheat a better hand.

Mishra's Workshop, Miren the moaning well, Mana crypt, Gilded lotus, Candelabra of tawnos, Voltaic key, Sundering Titan, and drew Heartseaker.

It lead to me casting turn 2 sundering titan. turn 3 karn + equip heartseaker, turn 4 darksteel collosus. I think the game was over on turn 6.

Anyone else with Karn decks have any busted hands they want to share?

Thanks I was forgetting the difference between daze/mana leak effects and sphere effects on spells and workshop mana

I was under the impression you can't use workshop mana to pay additional costs for spells like the +1 cost from thorn or sphere. Someone correct me If I'm wrong. It seems with no mox on turn 1 to pay for chalice then the only viable play is chalice on zero first followed by thorn. Ignore the latter if I'm wrong about workshop mana and additional mana costs.

If Meadbert can't figure this card out it must be bad in competitive vintage.

Looks sick in EDH duels. Please allow me to blow out my opponent with wasteland, strip mine, dust bowl, tectonic edge. Seems pretty easy to be casting this on turn 2 with a green deck and just pummeling there mana base for the next couple turns.

So in an average 20 man tournament I'd expect to see 4 shops, 2 oath, 4 fish decks + other stuff like 3 tezz, 1 storm, 3 dredge, and a few random decks. Do you think this would still favor the triskelion main with some number of duplicant in the sideboard?

The downside to Lotus as you mentioned is facing goblin welders. With other shop decks in the room I would tend to let lotus just sit in play and tap it to tangle wire unless I really needed the mana. I like lotus because it really helps lodestone golem come down turn 1 along with chalice on zero or even a sphere. This opening is almost unbeatable assuming I'm on the play. It's hard to say If I go second what to play since It's largely dependent on what the opponent did on their turn. In this situation I tend to think lotus is on par or even better to going first since you are basically playing catch up and need to drop more than 1 lock piece.


Thanks madmanmike for the Jesters cap reminder. Pretty sure that will be in the board in some number.

In regards to the sphere vs thorn debate I have to say It's been tough to gauge what to run as your 4 of if you don't play 4 of each. I think based on the list of fish creatures that see a lot of play and also cause a large problem for workshop decks you are right to go with sphere.

Rishadan port is interesting and I don't have a problem putting them in for mishra's factories. I'll test this one out.

Triskelion won me a game where my opponent got down 2 life from bargain and had to pass the turn to get his untap step. I played it from my hand and my opponent scoops. Duplicant in this position would have lost me the game.

I've been playing around with the following list.

25 Artifacts

4 thorn of amethyst
2 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
4 sculpting steel
2 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void

9 Creatures

4 lodestone golem
3 triskelion
2 karn

9 Artifact mana

5 mox
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring

18 Lands

4 workshop
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy

Anyone played something similar to this with good results yet? Mostly referring to smokestacks + lodestones in the same list with this question.

A few concerns I have had are 4x sculpting steel. Love the card, been great most of the time and It's pretty nice to fairly reliably have a tinker answer. The small problem I have had is getting hands like this
Mox x2, Land x2 Sculpting steel x2, 1 other lock piece. If your lock piece gets answered then the sculpting steels can be pretty dead until you draw another lock. I guess at this point I'd be willing to go down to three but Id rather do more testing first.

Only 2 sphere of resistance because thorn feels like the better lock piece in a deck trying to cast lodestones, karns, and dupes or trikes. I tried it as a 4 of but dropped 2 so I could increase the sculpting steel count and not hinder my casting of creatures.

Triskelion is pretty good in a fish meta but I think duplicant might be the better choice to deal better with oath and fish at the same time as well as answer every non inkwell tinkered robot.

Deck does feel a little light on threats but smokestack solves the problem by slowing them down or locking them out until I can draw some. I'm just not interested in playing a workshop deck without smokestack at this point in time. If counting smokestack as a threat then that increases my numbers to a more acceptable level.

Due to smokestack being in the deck I added a couple crucibles and a couple of mishra's factory. In testing, Smokestack has been good with or without crucible. I could see playing a 1 of crucible to get the list to 60 cards and possibly sideboard another 1 or 2 for shop mirrors.

Biggest concerns with the deck are shop mirrors, mono brown giving me no pyroblast for mass bounce spells, and lack of answers to a t1 or t2 resolved oath.

Do I need to splash red and rethink the deck to effectively handle shop mirrors, I'd anticipate 4-5 shop decks in a 20 player tournament. This would give me greater gargadons and pyroblasts along with artifact destruction.

Recap on changes being considered

-3 triskelion +3 duplicant
-1 crucible moving it to the board
-1 mana vault +1 metalworker, stolen idea from voltron00x. I have not been disappointed with mana vault but this is still a change I would be willing to test.
-1 sculpting steel, not sure what to put in for it. Could also let this be the 61st card to get cut.

Cards I've been considering for the sideboard
x triskelion
x ensnaring bridge
x tormods crypt
x relic of progenitals
x duplicant
x crucible of worlds
x spawning pit
x powder keg
x null rod

It sounds like you play for fun but want a strong deck to play with using any magic cards ever printed. Is this correct?

You don't need null rod or chalice of the void to play a deck for fun. I don't anticipate your opponents to have decks loaded with lotus, mox, time vault, etc. If they are playing these cards then you will probably end up designing a deck much different than the one you have.

I would suggest continue playing the deck you have and make minor changes suited to the opponents you play against regularly or build it legacy style tempo threshold. Check out the Team America deck http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-[Deck]-Team-America/page44

So according to you then Xbox or PS3 should be free as well along with the new games that come out. If not free then at least at a very small fee that is affordable by your average teenager on a small weekly allowance.
It seems Sony and Microsoft don't view their game systems as anything more than dollar signs. Is it elitist of them to make it a pay to play form of entertainment?


Magic singles are a big income for game stores. These are only obtained through opening packs. Regardless if someone buys a vintage playable single or a standard single the store is making money. This money helps them stay in business to sell more packs. To those claiming vintage brings no money to wizards is a nearsighted claim that fails to see the bigger picture.

I stay far away from standard because I don't want to spend money on a deck that is obsolete in 3 months when the next set comes out or rotations happen that make a deck not function. If I'm spending 200 dollars a playset on Baneslayer and Jace 2 I would fully expect to get more than a year out of them. Same goes with The mana base for standard. If it costs me several hundred to be able to cast spells then I want much more than a year out of that mana base.

Pretty sure If I remember correctly the price of unlimited berserk was like 70-90 depending on condition prior to reprint. I know I recall a couple stores buy prices being in the 40 to 50 dollar range which makes me think my recollection of the original price is pretty accurate.

The headline of the article states "Intricate new card game attracts Knox county players"

Just how new do they think this game is? It's been around long enough for the players who started in the 90's to have kids old enough to be playing now...

I like the idea of more free or almost free alternate costs.

I think we got some decent trap cards already from the past couple sets but it seems like something with room to expand upon. Seems like the best way to give a card multiple casting costs. It also allows each card in the cycle to have a different alternate cost based on its intended use and strength as a card.

What bugs me about reprints is the fact that white border dual lands are going to take a huge hit. I own 7 alpha dual lands which I gathered slowly over the last couple years. Great. Now what about the 50+ white border dual lands I have? I'd figure a white border dual is going to take a 20-30 dollar price dip or more depending on the going rate when they get reprinted. 50 cards x 25 dollars is 1250. Personally I don't like this thought at all.

Is every player out there with a players set of dual lands ok losing 1000 dollars in value? I doubt even a small minority are fine with this idea.

How about this for a possible solution. If a revised or unlimited card gets reprinted then any person who owns whatever card got reprinted would be entitled to a free reprint for each white border copy they own of that card?

The price of legacy is at an all time high yet the latest GP had over 2k players. In comparison to 10 proxy vintage the price of legacy might actually be higher depending on your deck choice.

10 proxy won't allow every deck to be played without some expense but the same can be said of legacy. Do you wanna play imperial recruiters, loyal retainers, tabernacles, ravages of war, rolling earthquake, etc. to play your first deck choice? It's like needing the imperial seal or the set of mana drains in vintage to compete with your first deck choice within proxy limits.

If the goal is to grow vintage and the thousands of active legacy players aren't coming over to vintage its probably the lack of tournaments more than anything since they are willing to drop a lot of money on legacy.

The question seems to be more than anything is how do we get more vintage tournaments going? Is it possible to get enough tournaments started while still keeping the proxy system? It seems for wizards to get on board with the vintage tournament scene we need sanctioned events which would mean no proxy events. This leads to needing reprints for P9, Bazaars, Workshops, and Drains.

As it stands now a legacy player that has a collection that enables multiple legacy deck choices should have little problem playing proxy vintage. Vintage events are just few and far between right now.

Unixtreme if you want to play bitter ordeal instead of sadistic sacrament then playing 8-10 fetchlands seems reasonable. How many actual swamps do you need in the deck.

I happen to like both cards for different decks of course. If you are playing sadistic sacrament as a sideboard weapon then it makes sense to belong in a tendrils deck.
Bitter Ordeal seems better in a deck packing wastelands similar to what you have posted. I played a black red ordeal list for a few weeks until everyone refused to playtest. Unless they where running a fish or aggro deck they had turns 1 and maybe 2 to win before I usually neutered the deck through their counters.

Looks like I need to Slap chop my way through the swiss rounds



So everyone can love their chopped nuts after I take down the tournament



Maybe I should bring a ShamWow playmat to dry up all the tears. Nothing else could hold that many.