This is probably more relevant in type 2, where Cascade decks put multiple spells on the stack simultaneously, and Double Negative already sees some play as an answer.

there's a thread with some of this discussion in it at the Vintage Open Forum, called TPS Goldfishing : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38554.0 scroll down to post #10.

One sort of "standard" gifts package discussed in that thread is : Demonic Tutor, Lotus, Ancestral, Tinker; which is appropriate at the beginning of the game if you're just trying to uh, "get value" out of your Gifts play.

The other way to cheat is to have some other tutor in your hand that lets you get Yawg Will; then you're basically playing Gifts as a way to load the graveyard.

Those are the easiest, or first, things I learned about Gifts.  The other posts here have good stuff about more advanced Gifts plays.

Suppose you draw (on the play, vs. a tezz deck):

academy, tendrills, jar, mox jet, sol ring, dark ritual, fetchland.

There seems to be a tension here between the fast mana and the jar.  If you use the fast mana, you waste the storm count it provides just putting the jar into play.  You can't win with the jar while the single Tendrills is in your hand. 

So I opened with academy, jet, ritual, sol ring, tendrils x 4 for 8 life.  I figured I can put the jar into play turn 2 and then find my way to yawgwill sometime later.  Is this the right play?

Wow, congrats on that sexy deck!  You make me want to play with Confidant, even though it's slow.

Does "Seizan, Perverter of Truth" fit in place of some of your fatties?  Cause I really think there should be a deck for that guy...

question: what do you use smother for that pyroclasm/infest won't kill?  just tarmogoyfs?

it's like a Null Rod that only affects your opponent's Vault.  Seems great in the mirror.

Eh, I thought lotus petal was to help with Turn 1 confidant/nights whisper.  Most Tezz lists don't run Petal, but I see it in lists with a lot of 2cc spells.  Seems like T1 nights whisper off the Petal makes up for using the petal.  As long as you didn't have the drain in hand, that seems like a strong play.  Or, maybe it just cycles the petal and nightswhisper for 2 life.  :/

Merchant Scroll definately belongs in the deck.  But it sounds like you don't need convincing of that.

I'd like to hear more about how Jace is working for people.  It seems good in the mirror, but if he's only good there, is he better than Library?

I feel like Intuition may be better than Impulse.  Intuition gets Force.  I feel like even without AK/deep analysis, it's gifts-light, setting up your win.

In lists with 2 tops, i usually see 4 bobs.  I agree bob can interact poorly with infinite turns.  But if you like the Tops, maybe you want a single Trinket Mage instead of a single confidant?

I like your list.  It makes me want to try it, but, personally, I'd swap out hurkyls for rebuild, then take that extra slot + 1 top, 1 REB to put in three Spell Snare.  And maybe I want Sphinx instead of Inkwell.

eh, just some ideas.

Wow, thanks for the great feedback!

I hadn't considered gifting for multiple tutors; that seems really strong.


So, actually I ended up playing Duress (on my time walk turn) and seeing my opponent with:

Mana drain,
Force of will,
Tezzeret,
Duress,
Land x 3

This is a crippling hand against me unless I win on my Time Walk turn with him tapped out.  (Maybe because his hand is so strong he chose not to Force the Gifts?)


I agree that Lotus + Ancestral seems the weakest possibility here.  I had, in re-thinking this position, decided that a Mind's Desire would be a pretty strong play.  If we did gifts for:

DT, Tinker, Lotus, Mind's Desire,

It seems like Lotus + Minds Desire leads to a MD of Storm 5 with 5 black 1 blue floating next turn, not considering the draw.  Lotus + Tinker leads to a Memory Jar with a lot floating, too.  Both those are risky, but plays I would have been much more happy with compared to what I actually did.


This sort of duplicitous Poker-Play is something I have not previously considered, either.  Clearly these types of calculations are key to becoming really skilled with TPS.

Knowing the Tezzeret player's hand, is it safe to assume he's not afraid of Ancestral Recall?  If I resolve it and pass the turn, he gets to duress my biggest threat with Drain AND Force up.  Drain into Tezz is a quick win for him.

Hello, I really liked this thread, and I've been thinking about it all week.  Then this weekend I ran into an opening hand that I misplayed at the time, but I for which I feel there could have been much stronger plays.  I was using a pretty standard TPS build (like yours but with more duress effects instead of nightswhisper), and I drew these 8 cards on the draw:

tolarian academy
dark ritual
cabal ritual
time walk
gifts ungiven
duress
mana crypt
mana vault

My opponent is playing Tezzeret, and opened with Land, Mox, Nights Whisper on his first turn.

On my turn I played the academy, crypt, and vault, and threw both time walk and gifts; both resolve.  The question tho, is what to get with Gifts Ungiven? 

What I did was select Memory Jar, Demonic Tutor, Black Lotus and Mox Jet...  and of course, the problem with this grouping is that it lets my opponent just give me mana, leaving me without any real action in hand.  Furthermore it tells him that I need black mana.  I think if I had only included the Lotus and not the Jet, he wouldn't have realized that I had no black source, and I may have been able to trick him into giving me the lotus I needed (perhaps by replacing Mox Jet with Necropotence in the gifts selection).

But, this is certainly a hand that rewards skilled play...  As a newcomer to TPS, I ask, what is the best play?  Or, at least, a better play than the one I made?

so, I recently tried to compile the same kind of list you're talking about; although I'm only interested in playing blue and/or black deck archetypes.

this is what I came up with, but, I do not have the expertise to tell you which are "the best" in which matchups, or the exact number to bring.  Since sideboards seem to be more a matter of debate and discussion, I hope this list will help foster both of those.

WHITE
(white sideboards are rare, but there seems to be lots of interesting possibilities)
enlightened tutor
seal of cleansing (vs. shops, null rods, vault/key)
serenity (vs. stax, null rods)
sacred ground (vs. stax, wastes)
balance (vs. fish)
silence / orim's chant / abeyance  (vs. combo)
swords to plowshares (vs. robot, vs. fish, vs. aggro)
ethersworn canonist (vs. combo)
karmic justice (vs. stax)

BLACK
the abyss (vs. fish, bobs)
perish (vs. goyfs, teegs)
virtue's ruin (vs. teegs, mindcensors)
planar void (vs. ichorid)
leyline of the void  (vs. ichorid, better if you can potentially hardcast)
yixlid jailer (vs. ichorid)
slaughter pact (vs. fish)
smother (vs. fish)
darkblast (vs. fish, bobs, welders)
thoughtsieze (vs. tezz, combo)
extirpate (vs. drains, vs. wastes, vs. ichorid)
infest (vs. fish)
massacre (vs. white fish w/o teeg...)

BLUE
Propaganda (vs. aggro)
arcane laboratory (vs. combo)
energy flux (vs. shops)
hurkyl's recall (vs. shops, nullrods)
rebuild (vs. shops, nullrods, chalice@2)
chain of vapor (vs. fish, rods)
echoing truth (vs. fish, rods)

RED
red elemental blast (vs. tezz)
ingot chewer (vs. shops, rods)
rack and ruin (vs. shops, rods)
pyroclasm (vs. fish)
firespout (vs. fish)
fire/ice (vs. fish, bobs)
ancient grudge (vs. shops)

ARTIFACT
tormod's crypt (vs. ichorid, yawgwill combo)
relic of progenitus (vs. ichorid)
pithing needle (vs. ichorid, shops)
vedalken shackles (vs. fish)
engineered explosives (vs. fish)

(I didn't consider green)

edit: i forgot the control magic effects for blue.  Stuff like Sower of Temptation and Threads of Disloyalty get played some.