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1  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Results: 1-23 Vintage at Die Hard Games! 41 people =D on: January 29, 2010, 12:02:01 am
If the list was unreadable, wouldn't that trigger all kinds of judge violations when you get deck checked? 
In a sanctioned tournement. Yes. In a 20 proxy tournement with some of the worst proxies I have ever seen. No. Im sure Feinstein will give you an explanation eventually. Who knows... Maybe he will even post the results for the Legacy event that I won on Sunday with Belcher.

I played with a proxied time vault, and that was it. But, some players went entire games without a single real card. Made the game a lot less fun, and a lot more of a hastle having to strain my eyes reading bad proxies. It made me wish we went back to the days of 5 proxie events. At least then people were encouraged to collect toward getting power instead of instantly selling power to whatever dealer would buy them.
2  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Results: 1-23 Vintage at Die Hard Games! 41 people =D on: January 28, 2010, 06:51:56 pm
4th John Longo (lost decklist :p) /w Tezzerator


Ugh, I thought we were past this 'let's let people not reveal their decklists after major tournaments BS.'   

I doubt it was about that Steve. I think its a combination of John Longo being a space cadet, and having the most unreadable writing imaginable. His list was very straightforward if your curious. Imagine a tezzeret build with maindeck Misdirection, spell pierce, and REB. It was my only loss in the swiss because off a jar he drew 2 counters, and 3 more off a timetwister (all on the same turn). Hope this helps a bit.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: How was Vintage in a "Golden Age"? on: June 02, 2008, 06:30:07 pm
The golden age of vintage ended when people added black to their Miracle Gro decks.
Omg... I am partially responsible for the end of the golden age of vintage then Sad
4  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted on: June 02, 2008, 05:35:01 pm
Blue wont die. It will actually evolve to what blue was originally several years ago with Tog.

Around the time of gifts ungiven came this new concept of Vintage magic.

Card Quality > Quantity.

Hulk won by massively outdrawing the opponent with Inuition/AK. Same with 4cc with Skeletal Scrying.

These then went away to the more explosive/consistent/versatile system using Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven, and then came along a new more combo'ish theme for blue control that lasted till right about now.

So I guess blue will evolve back 3 years I think. Wow time has went fast.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: How was Vintage in a "Golden Age"? on: June 02, 2008, 03:29:03 pm
Thanks Steve,

I guess the attendance of tournements dropping is primarily a New England thing. The dates you suggested were a time when the metagame was starting to show a growing trend of combo/combo-based control decks, but I never found them to be that prevelent or dominant to the point where it was an issue.

Gush, obviously changed everything. It has that affect. I realized quickly that the metagame would slowly get faster to the point where something would have to change, and well here is the change.

I just find this declaration of the end of a golden age to be a little far fetched. The format was balanced, but its not like it has ever been that way before. I just find this love of the metagame to be a little out there when control decks all won with a combo, and the format was extremely fast, and needed immediate answers. I see the view much more clearly now however.
6  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted on: June 02, 2008, 02:53:07 pm

Clearly a diverse format is bad.  The golden age has ended.

Huh? This is what I dont get? What freaking golden age? Vintage has been balanced for the most part for years... There has always been control in some form, always been combo, and some form of stax prison...

I dont see what golden age everyone is talking about... Besides lower attendence, and less interest in the format...
7  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted on: June 02, 2008, 01:40:12 pm
The loss of brainstorm isnt only devestating to control decks, but its equally devestating to combo decks. Thats what people are missing.

Brainstorm was ALWAYS the best card in Meandecks storm 10 deck, TPS, Long, and almost any other combo deck that you can think of with the acception of Belcher (which makes sense because of its inconsistencies).

I dont really like the loss of brainstorm, because it makes combo, and control decks less consistent. Type 1 is always random, but it succeeded with what I called "Controlled Chaos"... Because BS allowed there to be consistency to brokeness, but also answers.

I dont get ponder, but its clear that wizards was sick of seeing the SAME THING in ALL blue decks... FOW cant get the axe because its the glue of the format. But, brainstorm is a big loss...
8  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / How was Vintage in a "Golden Age"? on: June 02, 2008, 01:30:02 pm
I have been away from type 1 sporadically for the greater portion of 8 months dealing with high bills, and work etc. I saw the restriction of BS, Gush, etc. and came to the TMD as fast a possible to get the community reaction. Then I heard this line several times, "Vintage was in a Golden Age". Or, "its the death of the golden age of vintage"...

I was at first crushed to hear brainstorm in particular got restricted, but I asked myself? HOW IS VINTAGE IN A GOLDEN AGE. I quickly thought about it, and realized that its actually exactly the opposite!!! I now feel much better about the restrictions because well Vintage was definetly heading in the wrong direction. Why?

1.) If you look at the statistics of the TMD threads, posting, membership, and every major statistic has steadily dropped almost every single month for the last year.

2.) Tournement attendance has been on a steady decline from what I would of called the real golden age of magic (When Waterbury had multiple tournements of over 200+ people), and attendence throughout the country was generally MUCH higher.

3.) Type 1 has ALWAYS struggled to bring new people into the format. Type 1 players are almost all elitists if they admit it or not.

4.) The format seems less balanced and specific card dependent now then it did 2,3,4,5 years ago... The format has always been balanced for the most part with small periods of transition where a deck would dominate for a month, and then metagame would react.

In short Im asking? Is Vintage, or was Vintage in a Golden Age? Will the restricted list changes benefit the game in the long run?
9  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: What are you listening to right now? on: June 16, 2007, 10:54:17 am
My stupid dog barking at a freaking squirrel. grr...
10  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 09, 2007, 11:37:26 pm
I have been swomped with soooo much work this weekend I havent had a chance to respond to my thread yet (and its past midnight right now so I wont even be able to get to much tonight). I will answer ALL questions by tomarrow so sorry for getting behind.

To quickly answer the last post's question: First off I personally am not a fan of that many tendrils of Agony maindeck. I feel that running 2 is acceptable, and 3 is just overkill. There is just to many tutors in the deck to run 3, and its probably slowing the deck down or making it less efficient.

I have some changes to the deck that adress the stax matchup that I will again adress with my LONG post tomarrow.

How to beat RG Beats? Same way as old gifts.dec did... Tinker/Collossus. If you resolve tinker they have no real way to deal with collossus, and it ends the game. I wouldnt concern yourself with hate decks, because hate decks never win tourneys. Why? because they are bad decks fundementally. Smennen explained it best a while ago in a thread that I have forgotten the name of. Best advise, get in the 2-0 bracket and you shouldnt expect to play it. If your really that afraid of enchantments pull an ichorid and run shrine lol (and I am sadly only joking a little, but if your THAT afraid of bloodmoon its almost justifiable...almost)

Again, I will give analysis, and answer questions from Purple Hat, JakJakman, and post an updated list tomarrow.

Kyle
11  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: TMD Recipes on: June 08, 2007, 06:56:07 pm
Wow! Cool recipes! Seriously though... When I saw the tread title I was expecting a recipe like:

1/2 Cup of Smennen opinons
2 Tablespoons Tournement reports
1 pinch of arrogance
5 pints entertainment

Well, that example was horrible. However, I thought it was going to be a thread about TMD components. Not actual usful information like cooking (which shocks me with a 42.6 to 1 male to female ratio).

I <3 Microwave pizza, and until 2 months ago thought "filet minyon" (sp?) was a type of bird.
12  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 08, 2007, 09:59:26 am
@ Kombat - Your analysis is both insightful and accurate, and mirrors a lot of what I have found. Its not the fastest combo deck as you pointed out, but then again it doesn't want or try to be either. Its funny that though its slower then the other combo decks in the format it absolutely DESTROYS combo in the mirror, and I wont give a percentage in my testing results because its so uneven that it could result in flames. However, ask any combo player that played vs. me with it (or hopfully one will post on this thread), and they will admit that Gush Tendrils has a strong matchup vs. the other tendrils combos.

To me street wraith is a 4 of in everything. I am a statistics player, and play all my games on probability and odds. With shuffle effects street wraith truly does make the deck 56 cards, and the life loss has never been an issue. Or at least not a big enough issue for me to even question its inclusion. Cutting it would be a massive mistake.

Stax is the hardest matchup for the deck by a mile. I feel this deck has over 50% vs. the rest of the format with maybe the acception of GAT that depends 100% on the skill level of the player. For example I would say that I would take about 35-40% of my game 1's vs. ELD or Scott Limoges who are the best GAT players I have ever met, and win say 55%+ vs. other GAT players.

Stax is a bad matchup, because this deck is essentially the GAT draw engine and is permanent light. The matchup is not unwinable by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe that there are a few steps that could be made to greatly increasing the chances. Your comment about basic lands is accurate and is being adressed! I am not sure speed plays to much of a role vs. stax, because a turn 1 trinisphere is a turn 1 trinisphere. Or a lock is a lock, and stays that way until you bounce the lock. Now, getting to a point of getting out of the lock is something that can be improved through the maindeck, and the sideboard.

I have an updated list that I feel adresses several of the problems vs. Stax, and greatly improves the deck as a whole. I will post my updated list later today with card choices, and explanations. I feel this is a tier 1 format defining deck on par with meandeck gifts (if not ahead of it), and should be a contender to win every event its played in if played well.

@ Sarah Angel - Thanks! I think its a good addition too, because its often a free win and is not to difficult to protect with the decks countermagic, and ability to misdirect bounce spells (nobody boards in rebuild vs. gush tendrils =p)

Thanks for the feedback. I will post my updated list later!

Kyle
13  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 07, 2007, 06:25:09 pm
@ Grand Inquisitor - Trickbind is a scary card. Besides duress I have answer to besides being able try and recover, and win through a Yawgmoth's Will (if not used already) or with street wraith. Trickbind screws with every combo deck so its a fairly universal issue. I have noticed that most decks dont run it, but if the card starts to take off in popularity I mind start running Xantid Swarm, but I have maybe had trickbind cast 1 time on me in the last 5 tournements when I have played combo so I dont think about it to much.

My midgame hasnt really been to much of a problem. However, thats because of the great decrease in decks that are strong during the midgame/late game. Perhaps, that explains the success of bomberman in the northeast? Im not sure if there is even a tier 1 drain deck out right now. CS is to slow. Meandeck gifts got nuddered. Flash/Stax/Combo/Ichorid are all early game decks. That being the case my midgame hasnt been tested much (but I assume that GAT's growing popularity will change it). Most games dont play past turn 4-5 so I try not to let games reach that point, because I assume it could be a little tricky.

And yes. Steet Wraith allows me to not have to worry about running 2nd tendrils, and mind's desire into 3 of them is hillarious!

Kyle
14  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 07, 2007, 12:28:28 pm
@ Volkboys - I would bring in tinker/collossus vs. anything postboard that I feel might bring in a card like extract. Also it just randomly wins games, and they board out bounce most of the time.

Regardless, I dont really fear bomberman or boberman. As long as your the aggressor the matchup has always been easy for GT in testing.

The bounce in the side is 100% neccessary for stax. I might bring in a hurkyl's against control just as a utility card so that I have 1 more efficient bounce spell availible, and all the scary cards that I want to bounce are generally artifacts. Its also a matter of taking out cards that do nothing vs. cards that have the potential to do something. If your worried about that deck just play 4 threads of disloyalty, and a few copies of massacre and the matchup should be improved.

@ Stamford - So basically your personal changes are adding; Library, regrowth, and timetwister over the 4th Street Wraith, 3rd Duress, and 3rd Misdirection. To try and make the deck a little more "combo" ish.

Personally, I would NEVER cut a street wraith. They are way to good in the deck, and I would never cut a misdirection or a duress for reasons I already stated. I am not a fan of timetwister. I like library, but it has its flaws that make it questionable. And, like you I like regrowth, but I havent found a spot for it yet.

Your sideboard "GAT" strategy makes little to no sense to me. I dont see why turning your deck into GAT will help your postboard. Even with 2 Hurkyl's I really doubt that your postboard Stax Matchup has improved. Or why you would bring misdirection in from the sideboard at all when there are clearly superior postboard cards to misdirection.

Your reasoning for Gush Tendrils makes sense, and the deck is not a "long" deck lol. Reasoning already stated above.

I think people are looking a little to deep into a few sideboarding examples. Those were very basic examples of what you could do, but not what you MUST do. I just giving examples I felt were decent so players have a better clue of what to cut (instead of dropping cards that really should always remain in the deck like vamp a card that gets cut a lot postboard in other decks)

Kyle
15  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 07, 2007, 09:51:42 am
@ Volkboys - With the changes your describing you might as well turn the deck into PitchLong or GrimLong.

A KEY point is this: I am NOT saying that Dark Ritual & Gush are bad together. I am just saying that Dark Ritual is BAD in a deck that does NOT run; Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Grim Tutor, Draw 7's, or any other expensive casting cost bombs.

Seriously, think about it like this... You have 4 ritual in the deck... What are you honestly going to be using them to cast? Merchant scroll? That 1 black mana floating will be amazing when you burn after fetching an ancestral recall, gush, or FoW.

Also, cutting a Street Wraith is a NEVER in this deck. Street Wraith is AMAZING! The drawback of it sometimes with brainstorm is 100% mute when the deck can shuffle the deck from 14+ different card effects!

I played merchant scroll as a 3 of on the first day of the tournement, and bumped it up to 4 on the 2nd day and havent regretted the change at all. Its the kind of card that i WANT to see 2 of in my opening hand, and wouldnt be upset if I had a hand with 4 of them as long as I had 2 mana sources as well. Its that good!

Misdirection I personally love as a 3 of. Especially because of merchant scroll. I hate being in a situation where I cant scroll for 1, because I am only running 2. The card is stronger in this metagame then it has been in a long time, and against stax it gets boarded out so its pretty simple.

About Ichorid. I dont know what to say... I was beating it in testing game 1, and absolutely CRUSHING it post sideboard, and I mean not even close. And this was against Richard Shay so its legitiment competition. The deck doesnt care about chalice at 0, or leyline so it turns into a goldfish race. And, my main focus is to put myself in a situation where I can protect my hand from Cabal Therapy w/brainstorm and my vast erray of tutors that safeguard my hand. Creating a high threat density. game 1 they obviously have the edge, but with my "unique" sideboard plan of boarding out Misdirection/Duress, and often FoW I can keep the same speed clock while running leyline and jailer.

@ Stamford - Your 100% right. Goldfishing this deck just doesnt give it justice. On a naming standpoint i refuse to call any deck "Long" right now. That was a term used by "Mike Long" a famous cheater who linked himself to burning wish, and lions eye diamand. This deck runs neither, and unlike decks like "grimlong" doesnt take "long" turns. I preffer to link a deck name to its primary kill condition, and something distinct so I go with GT or Gush Tendrils, because it most accurately describes the deck to the vast majority of people from all formats. So I will stick with GT.

You pointed out one think I have noticed. In situations where the deck "fizzles" it generally doesnt fizzle as much as plays a control role until it can acquire and protect a merchant scroll or other tutor that can then instantly end the game, or severally leverage the advantage to 1 player.

I am assuming your modification was adding regrowth in place of something. I myself want to fit regrowth in, because I retested it and it is stronger then I thought with the inclusions of gifts ungiven (which seems like a random 1 of, but really isnt considering 4 merchant scroll). Im glad your having success with my deck!

@ Malhavoc - I have found basically the same exact results that you have listed. Those being that its almost impossible to fit Tinker/collossus into the maindeck comfortably, Jar is clunky, and that horn of greed can be overly symmetrical and generally win more (because if your casting gush your generally ahead).

I do REALLY like tinker in the sideboard. Perhaps more then I like psychatog. I have an updated sideboard that I will share later in this post!

Mystic Remora is very interesting and I will test it! I feel like I have great game vs. Salvagers and combo mirrors already though, and my main matchup concern would likely be stax.

@ someone_unimportan - First off, your user name is rather depressing! Self confidence! Anyway thank you for your complements on the deck! Ichorid can be beaten game 1, but I will admit that most decks do have a problem with it game 1, and nothing is particularly favorable game 1. I feel the deck is starting to see A LOT less play, because board hate is slowly pushing the deck out of the metagame and people find it sooo boring to play that unless they feel they will win with it (which is getting harder) they see less reason to run it. The key to beating Ichorid is having 2 different forms of hate. That being said running Leyline, and say planer void wouldnt count. Because, they both are answered by the same card. I like Leyline & Jailer because both require different answers. Leyline is stronger vs. Ichorid early game while Jailer is much better vs. ichorid in the late game giving the board a 2 headed approach vs. the deck improving the matchup.

I find deck speed is not important vs. Ichorid as being able to play around leyline and chalice at 0. I dont care how fast the deck is... because on game 3 when your on the draw if ichord starts with leyline in play, chalice at 0, and bazaar your in BIG trouble if your long.dec while GT might have a more favorable chance of recovering though that is a very hard hand to beat for anything.

OK! My updated Sideboard!

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yexlid Jailer
3 Threads of Disloyalty (4 was a little overkill, but intentional based on metagame)
1 Duress
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Collosus
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

So looking at this here is how I would board vs. some matchups.

STAX
-3 Misdirection
-1 Gifts Ungiven (to costly mana wise)
-1 Duress
+2 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Rebuild
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Collosus

On the play I would probably leave duress in if not board in 1 more, and cut a merchant scroll etc.

COMBO (any fast form - good matchup in tournement play and testing)
-1 Island
+1 Duress
-maybe bring in tinker/collosus
Weird board choice, but its seriously something I would do. They dont run strip, and I want aggresive hands. I dont board a lot because well I really dont need too... 4 Duress, 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection and merchant scroll for MisD when I know they want to get ancestral is just good.

CONTROL/BOMBERMAN w/e
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Collosus
+1 Duress
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Street Wraith
-1 land maybe

The only key to the matchup is to "be the beatdown" Bomberman is an extremely beatable deck as long as you force them to react to you. I see people who are very good players lose to the deck, because they are too willing to pass the turn and let bomberman hit 3 mana and EoT drop Aven Mindscensor or cast that trinket mage for tormod's crypt (which doesnt hurt my deck much).

Those sideboarding examples were just that. Examples. It can be completely different based on play/draw, and if I am up or down a game, or if perhaps I feel that I want to run less card disadvantage vs. a player I deamed more skilled. So its on a match to mass basis.

Hope this helps. Glad to here responces!

Kyle
16  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 06, 2007, 11:07:38 pm

Xantid Swarm just feels awful in the deck. why try to resolve a 1 green casting cost creature to say I can do what I want... when i can resolve a 1 green enchantment that says I win the game? Also the disruption for the deck is already great, and protecting things like merchant scroll that are all synergy plays seems to have little benefit at the cost of a maindeck slot.


Uh, yeah, nobody's saying you should cut Fastbond, which is clearly the strongest card in the deck (even better than Will).  The thing is though, when you go to game 2, you might want it over Duress/Misd, especially because you don't really plan to win on turn 1, although it does happen.
My example was a poor 1 I will admit that. I still believe that duress/Misd are better postboard b/c duress provides information, and a better combo matchup. While Misdirection is another blue card for FoW, very good vs. Ancestral and vs. cards like Orim's chant etc. and of course acts as a counter. In fact with this deck I welcome counter wars because I generally win them, and it forces opponents to pitch gas to counters that they generally dont resolve anyway.

Kyle
17  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 06, 2007, 09:33:14 pm
@ Stamford - Thats how I look at the deck too. Very similar to Meandeck Gifts, but with more draw spells and less grave reliance.

@ Slyfer - I think I just have to disagree with many of your statements. I will break them down 1 by 1.

1.) You state Tutoring is superior to draw, and thats a deck flaw? My deck runs 8 tutors. And the draw engine only finds more threats, and generally acts as a way to produce mana and stay ahead. I look at it as the best of both worlds. Also tutoring is never card advantageous and call falter vs. a deck that wins the "big" counter war.

2.) No other storm deck has the potential of fizzling? Are you kidding me? Pitch Long and Grim Long can fizzle w/o a doubt. Sure they dont fizzle a lot, but they do fizzle. My deck can fizzle of course, but GT does not fizzle at a high percentage. And, if played well it fizzles at about the same percentage as the two decks that you state. Also I tend to disagree about this extremely "narrow window" for openings. Type 1 is a fast format, but a turn 3-4 kill is generally a descent kill speed provided that you run enough disruption to prevent your opponent from goldfishing, and GT definetly does.

3.) GAT the best gush deck? Thats an opinion. By results alone and my testing GT clearly is the superior deck, but I am not here to debate what deck is the best, because it has way to many factors and the decks dont share many things in common besides gush.

@ Kobefan - Exactly! At least somebody is catching on lol.

@ volkboys - I havent tested gush in an intuition style based deck yet. I always find those decks to be a little bit more reliant on graveyard then I like.

The big question I been expecting! Why play this over pitch/grim long! Good question! Here are my reasons:
1.) Consistency - Having played A LOT of pitch/grim long to success I can say with confidence that GT is a more consistent deck. The problem with pitchlong is that it Mulligans A LOT! It does randomely get god hands, but it also gets a lot of awful hands that have to be thrown back.
2.) Graveyard! GT isnt as reliant on it as grim/pitch long. All the decks can win without them, but GT can do it much better.
3.) Speed = Whats the value? The kill turn of a deck is the most overrated thing in all of magic! I could play Storm 10 combo and win 60% on turn 1 easily, but that doesnt mean that I would be winning more games then if I played fish that wins turn 20ish. What GT lacks for in speed is made up for in consistency, and disruption. The ammount of disruption is diseaving as well, because the deck draws so many cards so it feels like it always has a FoW/Misdirection/Duress at all times. I rarely passed the turn thinking "oh boy! I am in big trouble now" because I dont have a counter or was going to be drawing dead.

I havent considered running more tendrils as of yet, and I dont want to splash red into the mana base. I find that stretching the mana base could be detrimental, and I believe warrens is a more answerable card then tendrils vs. everything but stax (which also prepares for it). Its a great card, but I am not sure I would want to sacrafice a strong mana base for the trade. Game 1 is also about efficiency, and adding a 2nd kill condition hurts that. Though throwing a 2nd tendrils in the board wouldnt be a bad option at all.

I cant give great matchup figures yet. Most everything has been favorable with the acception of stax game 1, but its a matchup I feel is extremely winnable especially with a good sideboard.

Xantid Swarm just feels awful in the deck. why try to resolve a 1 green casting cost creature to say I can do what I want... when i can resolve a 1 green enchantment that says I win the game? Also the disruption for the deck is already great, and protecting things like merchant scroll that are all synergy plays seems to have little benefit at the cost of a maindeck slot.

Thanks for the complements, and ideas.

Kyle

18  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 11:46:36 pm
Thanks for clarifying my inquiry, I just was trying to test GT out and found myself blanking out when I drew gifts.  I tended to just randomly cast it for brokenness since I didn't know how to play it optimally.  Thanks again.
No problem. Glad I could clerify gifts ungiven a little bit. The key to remember is that it is 100% dependent on the situation, and when you cast it the following questions should be considered:
1.) What am I trying to achieve with this gifts ungiven? This is often underlooked. Sometimes you go for the kill, sometimes for card advantage, or sometimes you can gift defensively with a pile like (FoW, Misdirection, Merchant Scroll, Duress) if you are playing vs. combo or trying to protect your own combo.
2.) What is the best and worst case scenario with my gifts? In other words, Can I win this turn? Is there a pile I can trick my opponent with? Should I go for bombs or tutors for bombs?

Another thing about the deck that is often misplayed is when to put your foot on the gas or on the break with the deck. Sometimes I noticed I was trying to combo... Then I stopped myself... Looked at the game state... and realized... "Wow, I have a FoW in hand... And if I hold off till next turn I can win 100% instead of trying to force through several gush's w/o any mana b/c of some scroll played earlier in the turn. Just something to ask yourself when playing/testing the deck. Realizing and adjusting to this error greatly improved my results almost instantly, but I hae been known to be an extremely aggressive player and it shows up in my playstyle.

Kyle
19  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 10:18:19 pm
@ oneofchaos - Gifts Ungiven is 100x better then any draw 7. The card plays the role of "Finisher" in GT.

The piles are NEVER super obvious like they were in gifts ungiven. However, that doesnt mean they are any less powerful. All of the card selections are 100% dependent on whats in play and what is in hand.

Lets say that you have absolutely nothing of relevence in hand or in play (cards like - fastbond, yawgmoth's will, black lotus etc.), and lets say 4 mana (w/2 land), and its at EoT of opponent...

If I had nothing great in my graveyard I would get:
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Gush
Ancestral Recall

In this situation they are either allowing me to get fastbond with a draw spell that should put me permanently ahead. Or allowing me to draw 5 cards with 4 mana floating (tap lands bounce 2 - replay 1 and get 1 more mana) if they give me Gush/Ancestral pile.

If I have a graveyard that I would deem strong (more then 1 gush, an ancestral, mox or 2, some combination of those... If you have a good graveyard... You know you have a good graveyard)... Then you get a pile like this:

Fastbond
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
*Ancestral, Gush, Imperial Seal (all depends on hand)

In this situation they wont give you fastbond with a tutor that can get gush. So your likely getting 2 tutors. You tutor on upkeep for Yawg will, and then will replays fastbond, and then you go crazy by replaying Gush's and the gushes are more efficicent b/c you use the vamp you got to get black lotus, or tendrils, etc. to gush into to get the kill.

There are other fancy piles you can get if you want to set up mind's desire, or if you have Yawg will in hand. All of those are very similar to the gifts piles basically.

Kyle
20  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 09:59:56 pm
@ nicofromtokyo - Purple Hat hit the correct. The problem with draw 7's is that they are clunky, symetrical, and can whiff.

Off of a draw 7 with this deck in particular its never an auto win. The only way I could see it being that way is if you have fastbond in play, and if it is in play the game is probably over anyway. The deck only runs 1 ritual, and even with mana floating a draw 7 is not nearly as broken in this deck as it would be in a long.dec.

Thats not particularly a bad thing, because the deck doesnt play like that. The reason this deck doesnt run timetwister is the same reason gifts.dec didnt run timetwister. Draw 7's in tutor based combo decks w/o rituals just dont work. Its not that I am not giving draw 7's a chance. I tested them, and they were just win more, clunky, or just not very strong. My recent testing only makes me feel more confident saying that the list posted is as close to optimal as I have been able to come up with as of yet (though I do want to try to test a few cards, and see if I can find slots for those cards).

My testing with this deck continues to be extremely strong and similar to my tourney results. If anybody has tried my list I would be happy to hear testing results good or bad.

Kyle
21  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 03:34:26 pm
@ TimeWizzle - Its an interesting thought, but against a deck like Ichorid a Yexlid Jailer is just better. Vs. Fish I believe that Threads of Disloyalty is better.

And, If I dont win the game on the same turn with timetwister. I can ensure that I probably will lose the game giving Stax a new hand with mana on the board already.

Kyle
22  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 02:20:19 pm
@ Sarah Angel - Thanks! My match with you was very fun, and you were a good spirited opponent which also always helps!

@ demonic effect - I have not tried tolarian winds in the deck. Im sure there is a deck out there that could abuse it, but I doubt that deck would be my deck. Why? Because, though I would be discarding lands I would also be discarding tutors. My deck runs 8 Tutor effects, and gush tends to draw tutors that I would rather not pitch. Also, one synergy I did a poor job of explaining is Gush's synergy with brainstorm. I cast gush, get lands, and then brainstorm lands back on top of library (if I dont need them). Then I shuffle away the lands with a deck filled with over 15+ shuffle effects. Its an interesting idea, but if I played it I would probably try to focus a deck around it more.

Note: Gush is amazing, but the deck doesnt revolve around it 100%. The deck plays around tutors, disruption, and consistency.

Kyle
23  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: [Report] Myriad Games Back-to-Back Vintage Double Header Extravaganza! on: June 05, 2007, 09:50:06 am
Wouldn't REB be better then nix in almost every instance?  I realize it's red and nix is blue..but it's not really hard to splash for it.

/Zeus

No because it doesn't fit in the deck ... at all.  #1) I only run 3 fetchlands.  #2) I run titan, and lastly it doesn't give me splash control against Ichorid, and has less of an impact against combo (doomsday).

For the Record, I probably won't be doing a tournement report because I don't remember too much about my matches/opponents.   I will be posting a revised decklist and mini-primer going over some of the choices and lessons learned from the tournement.  So keep an eye on the Vintage Forums.

I played a few casual games with Gush Tendrils against his Oath list, and Nix was generally very insane. I had fun trying to misdirect his nix on my gush to his gush lol. Its a very strong card I have to say! I was impressed, and would considered a worthy board card if you expect GaT, GT, Ichorid, etc.
24  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 09:45:39 am
@ Malhavoc - Game 1 my alternate win condition was Street Wraith (seriously its not bad as such, but I almost never hardcast it unless its dire - I auto cycle it unless tendrils is RFG generally). I never needed to win with it as an alternative, but did Desire into 3 of them in a game and then just time walked. I thought that was pretty funny.

On a more serious note. I boarded in Psychatog every single round game 2. For the same reasons you stated. Everybody takes out removal, and brings in combo hate. I think I killed 1 of 20ish wins with psychatog, but that was just because I was generally able to win before hate came up, or was able to duress/FoW it before it stopped me.

There were times when I thought... "WOW! I am doing a whole lot of work/thinking/counting to win this game... I got mystical + Gush + FoW in my hand... Tinker would sure be convienent right now!" Though I was thinking this in the game I still think it would be clunky as you said. HOWEVER, I think your right that it deserves to be tested in the sideboard at a bare minimum. Though I doubt it would be needed game 2.

Kyle
25  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 05, 2007, 08:33:52 am
@ Purplehat - I run the single Island as a metagame decision. Basically, I new that there was going to be a lot of staxless stax and I felt being able to drop an island would be helpful (sinse gush doesnt always come in line turn 1 unfortunetly). 2nd, I am terrified of blood moon. 1 of my only 2 losses was a fairly janky 8 blood moon effect deck. So, it was a metagame call in short.

@ Slyfer - In testing I will admit my Stax matchup isnt great. However, I will say that it is better vs. stax in testing then GaT was by a wide range. I went 1-1 vs. Stax in tournement, and I believe that bringing in Hurkyl's and Rebuild's in from the sideboard significantly improves the matchup. Generally I board like this:

-3 Misdirection
-X Duress
+2 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Rebuild
+X Threads of Disloyalty (if stax runs 4 welders etc. - steeling welder = steeling game)
- Leyline = horrible vs. stax b/c it just makes me start w/smaller hand vs. deck that I want to play permanents against.

Chalice for 1 hurts, but I dont think any 1 chalice # kills me. Regardless, from testing I realized that I might want to increase # of cards for the matchup.

@ Acidfreak - I could do that, but generally that would be a different deck entirely and would be more practical to build around a high tide deck if that was the case. Also Tendrils is a better kill in my mind then brain freeze, because I am not sure I could get to the 15-20 spell count as consistently as I get to the 8-10 spell count range needed to kill with Tendrils.

@ Malhavoc - Interesting list. Overall, we share several key differences in thought about several cards.

#1 - Street Wraith - To me this card is god-like. Its a 4 of in everything I play. I dont even look at is as a card really as much as I do me playing a 56 card deck.
- The life loss has NEVER been an issue for me.
- Mulliganing has yet to be an issue for me. If you dont have a land or enough mana to cast scroll/brainstorm you mulligan regardless of # of SW's.
- It can act as an alternate kill if somebody RFG's my tendrils (and it has worked! lol)
- Synergy with tutors. The fact that it doesnt cost mana makes a huge difference on turn 1-2 when tutoring for ancestral (so I can cast it or fastbond w/e on the same turn).
- Card efficiency. I find that running a deck w/o timetwister, regrowth, 13th land, etc. is more consistent and more broken.

#2 - Combo cards. To me timetwister isnt needed. It generally helps the opponent more, and I found rarely a time in testing where I would want to play it. I was always thinking... Why cant this just be a merchant scroll? Regrowth has been a "win more" card at times, but I do love it at times. I just notice that I cant find a slot for it because the list is so tight, and thats a good thing because that means the deck is efficient. It works great with gifts, but that means what? When you resolve gifts you should be winning the game regardless.

#3 - Frantic Search is a very interesting card, and I am a huge fan of it. I just dont have room, and when I bounce my lands so consistently its often hard to find a land to untap with it.

Overall, it looks like you took the deck in a more combo'ish route by replacing my unreplacable street wraith slots with combo threats. Interesting take, and I will be interested to see the results.

Kyle
26  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 04, 2007, 10:36:40 pm
@ pyr0ma5ta - Turn 1 kill hands generally are insanely strong. If there not then they typically dont kill turn 1. The strong results took place over 2 seperate back to back tournements at Myriad Games where the top 8 was recently posted.

Typically the kill is turn 3-4, and almost always with multiple counter backup. Getting black generally occurs by floating black prior to or after a gush. I am not sure if its a concern or not, but it has never been a real problem in the games I have played.

Getting fastbond into play I have to point out is not difficult at all. Any deck that can almost guarantee a win if it resolves a  {G} casting cost enchantment seems redicules overpowered to me. I cannot fathom why Gush was unrestricted, but this deck abuses it to the fullest.

Turn 3-4 doesn't seem that fast, but the fact that it can win faster if needed. AND, that it runs 4 FoW, 3 MisD., 3 Duress, and is resilant, and has almost no reliance on the graveyard is what seperates this deck from the pact. Not to mention that the deck does not mulligan often, and has a faster recovery time if for some reason it fizzles.

@ kobefan - Very accurate, and put much better then I was gonna say it. This deck generally sees 20 cards at a bare minimum before it wins, and generally in the range of 30+, and this doesnt count cards put back with brainstorm before cracking a fetch etc.

Kyle
27  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog on: June 04, 2007, 10:22:06 pm
@ Steve - Why only 3 Street Wraith? I have yet to hear a good reason for a type 1 deck to not run 4 street wraith. Is it because you couldn't find a card to cut without messing up ratio's so you decided to just cut a Wraith?
28  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 04, 2007, 09:50:33 pm
@kobefan - 11 islands (12 total lands) has to my own suprise been enough. I reviewed all my match notes, and I mulliganed 4 times in 11 rounds. The reason for this is that with 4 street wraiths I can now get away with running 1 less mana source (in whatever deck I choose to play), and merchant scroll/tutors/draw affects etc. allow me to find the mana rather easily.

Also, the critical land number for the deck is 2. Any land beyond the 2nd is just excess in most cases (though they can obviously be helpful). But the deck can function on a basic level at 2 mana, and on total function at 2 lands.

Turn 1 Kills. The deck isn't designed to have turn 1 kills at all, but they do happen. In 11 rounds I had 6 of them. Here is a summary of a few of them that should show the situations that cause them to occur, and a general feel for how the deck can play at.

Day1 Tourney. Round 1. Vs. Travis Laplante - He has insane turn 1 w/CS. He passes turn. My hand is:

Underground Sea
Island
Mox Emerald
Street Wraith
Imperial Seal
Gush
Misdirection

I go... Sea, Emerald, I.S. for fastbond (18 life), Cycle S.W. (16), use emerald to play fastbond, play island (15), Gush (into Street Wraith + Merchant Scroll), replay both lands (13), merchant scroll for gush, replay lands (11), cycle S.W. (into dark ritual), cast ritual, gush (with  {B} {B} {B} {U} floating), gush into black lotus, demonic, replay lands, demonic into yawg will, replay lotus, ritual, demonic, tendrils. I got will not b/c I had too, but b/c it was fun to make travis mad because he said my deck sucked.

Example 2: Sunday Round 3, game 3, vs. Stax

Hand:
Polluted Delta
Dark Ritual
Black Lotus
Demonic Tutor
Mox Emerald
Force of Will
Chain of Vapor

This hand went, land, lotus, ritual, emerald, demonic (for will), lotus, emerald, ritual, demonic, tendrils. This hand played more like a grim long deck then anything, but randomly went off.

Generally the deck wins turn 1 if you have a situation where you have a turn 1 fastbond, with enough mana/land to cast gush, merchant scroll, ancestral, or a tutor with a way to see the top card.

Or a hand with a tutor and mana able to get fastbond. These combined with a strong brainstorm, and the deck can pull off fast kills. Generally, I really didnt try to get turn 1 kills. I merchant scrolled several times for Force of Will and Misdirection. to protect my 2nd merchant scroll for ancestral.

The decks average kill speed was turn 3-4, but I never really tried to go for a fast kill, because I every time I was combo'ing off I typically had a FoW/MisD. back up or played a duress prior to the kill.

@ashiXIII - I havent considered Personal Tutor, but it would be worthwhile to test! I dont know what I possible would cut for it, but it would complement the deck though it might possibly be narrow.

I like the 3/3 ratio with Duress/ Mis-D, because MisD. was amazing for me. I am a HUGE supporter of Duress, but I believe that in the current metagame where I live MisD is just amazing. Especially with decks randomly throwing Ancestrals around, and me being able to out counter them for the ancestral. That, and being able to use it to protect my own spells w/o having to spend mana. However, If I had the room I would want to add in duress #4, and regrowth. Though I am not sure what is cut worthy. Perhaps, Time Walk. However, it creates tempo for a 2nd land drop, and synergy with many of the tutors.

Hope this information helps.

Kyle
29  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 04, 2007, 07:24:34 pm
@ pyr0ma5sta - I got rid of the rituals like you said, because they are fairly suboptimal. That being the case I have never really had any trouble getting the  {B} {B} {2} casting cost. It can be a little tricky at times if your not paying attention to it, but generally what happens in my play experience was that prior to a gush I would float black mana then bounce the lands, and from there I would be generating the blue mana etc. If I dont have gush I relied off the lands I had in play, mox jet, dark ritual, lotus petal, black lotus. In the first tournement I HATED the 2nd dark ritual, but I left 1 in as a neccessary (and it was cool to cast gifts off it). The double black overall though never really was an issue. I often only had to get single black for yawgmoth's will, or  {U} {U} {4} for mind's desire to end the game, and all these situations are baring that I never get fastbond into play. With the large ammount of disruption this combo deck plays (more then even older gifts.deck or TPS) I generally resolved what I wanted at will vs. the vast majority of my opponents accept perhaps ELD who had better hands, and dropped fastbond before me in 2 of 3 games.

In short, getting double black hasnt really been to much of an issue, and the single ritual is just a procaution more then a neccessity.

Kyle
30  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: GT - Gush Tendrils on: June 04, 2007, 06:54:43 pm
@ Zulander - I have tested both. I play chain of vapor over echoing truth, mainly because of the duel roles of chain of vapor. Chain of Vapor can be tutored to bounce a collosus, or a dredge returned creature. But, more importantly. It can be used to sac a bunch of lands to bounce moxes, etc. to then replay and cast tendrils/mind's desire for a large number.

@ RaleighNCTourneys - Thanks! The maindeck Hurkyl's/rebuild is a very fair question. I chose not to run them because I find the list to be extremely tight. A chalice for 0 to me is not a big deal. Unless my hand is full of moxes I would generally let it resolve (even if I have a FoW etc. in my hand). Chalice for 1 is a bit more ennoying, but the same applies. Most of my business spells arent in that casting cost range, but chalice at 1 I would likely want to counter. I find chalice to be a bit less of a threat because I only run 1 dark ritual. However, I have several forms of bounce in the board, because of cards like chalice, sphere of resistence, and of course trinisphere.

Kyle
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