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1  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Sin Prodder on: March 21, 2016, 07:37:34 pm
Quote
I find it crazy that people could swear by Bob yet not give this the time of day

This is Bob, except it blanks every time you flip mana or a good card.  That's not good.

And costs 3 mana...  and doesn't cost you life... I love comparisons of cards that are worlds different.
2  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Sin Prodder on: March 21, 2016, 02:33:05 pm
So to play this optimally you want your average CMC to be as high as possible to ensure you draw an extra card, or get a good burn spell every turn.  Your opponent is always going to bin 0 CMCs.  Spirit Guides, Gush, Force, Chewer and any other card with an alternative mode seems good with it.

In general, it seems like an interesting card, and I commend anyone who finds a way to make it work.
3  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 21, 2016, 02:26:25 pm
I thought this was the new NYSE playmat for a second.

It should be the last place trophy. 

Now that's a prize I'd be willing to fight for.

Have to avoid those Byes.
4  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 19, 2016, 10:49:24 pm


I fear this may not receive the credit it deserves...

This is pretty amazing.
5  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 19, 2016, 04:12:39 pm
Bob is still king.  

Of unplayable cards that were formerly good maybe.
6  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 19, 2016, 03:28:18 pm
Honestly this card is of a higher power level than Bob although in some decks, Bob would likely be the better choice.

I was totally with you until that last bit.  No, I don't think Visitor actually exceeds Bob.  Sure, it's situationally better.  In particular, it lets you run a higher curve without fear.   But, if you're looking for a turn 1 draw engine, I think Bob is still far and away the better choice since it, you know, actually WILL draw you cards if it lives.  This dork will not.

But, like I said, I'm with you otherwise.  I will be brewing with this saucy lady.

She beats him out in everything except maybe the draw ability, and even there Bob is inferior in most of the current decklists (especially in non Blue).  Frankly paying 2+ life for an extra card a turn (non optional) is just not that good, and has largely been the reason that Bob has been phased out.  If Bob was actually seeing play right now I could see the argument, but he doesn't.
7  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 19, 2016, 03:13:32 pm
While I applaud the design and power level of this guy, I'm not really sure what makes him any more suited to Vintage at the moment than Dark Confidant. Bob barely gets a look-in these days, and as long as mid-range gro decks (and the removal we all run because of them) continue to be a thing, I doubt this guy will either.

That said, if Gush ever gets restricted we might be back to looking for other draw engines. Still, even then, Bob seems far more reliable, especially at helping you hit your land drops versus Shops, so you can even begin to think about emptying your hand.

Cool card, but I'm not really seeing it in Vintage.

Looking at each part of each card:

Draw ability both have variance in what is going to happen.  Bob's ability reveals the card, and does a lot more damage on average.  Bob is also limited to a maximum of 1 card per turn regardless of the situation, although that card is guaranteed.  In any deck where you go hellbent often, workshops/dredge/dragon/ect., this is way better than Bob.  Asylum Visitor has the bonus of potentially causing your opponent to take suboptimal lines in order to try and shut off the ability too.

P/T edge goes to Asylum Visit as 3/1 > 2/1.  This power difference is also not negligible as it can trade with Lodestone, kill Jace in one attack, trade with a blocking Mishra's Factory, and provide a clock that is 3 turns faster.

The Madness ability.  This is obviously something Bob doesn't have at all.  Asylum Visitor has already generated card advantage just by being cast off its madness ability, regardless of whether it resolves or is removed before it ever activates.

Honestly this card is of a higher power level than Bob although in some decks, Bob would likely be the better choice.
8  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Asylum Visitor on: March 19, 2016, 12:03:59 am
You can draw multiple cards if you happen to draw and use a counterspell/removal or any other instant on your opponent's turn that doesn't read draw a card. 

However, the biggest and best way to get multiple draws off this is Bazaar of Baghdad.  It's also how you abuse madness.  Another good card with both this card, and Bazaar?  Uba Mask.
9  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Drownyard Temple on: March 18, 2016, 02:06:33 pm
In a fight of Crucible vs Crucible, which is not uncommon for a Shops mirror, this does give you a way of getting ahead in lands/permanents.
10  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] asylum visitor on: March 18, 2016, 10:40:42 am
Dredge could play this card to get around hate cards.

That will be my plan.  The key will be to figure out how to not loose on the first couple turns... The format is so fast right now.  I can't see how draw 1, and potentially draw 2 cards a turn on a 3/1 can not be playable though.
11  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] asylum visitor on: March 18, 2016, 10:31:58 am


This card is definitely insanely powerful.  It works on any upkeep where a player is hellbent meaning you can draw 2 cards per turn!.  Madness means you can extract value for it right away.  A 3/1 body means its a very fast clock, and has the ability to trade with almost any creature in the format.  I will look forward to playing with this card.
12  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Trail of Evidence on: March 17, 2016, 07:19:05 pm
Is investigating better than making a 1/1 prowess?
13  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Trail of Evidence on: March 17, 2016, 03:55:40 pm
And clues are permanents, something that sometimes matters (tangles, stax...). Master of Etherium could have place in a deck with this also :p

They are artifacts
14  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Drownyard Temple on: March 17, 2016, 01:11:57 pm
I will attempt to play this card.  Whether its actually playable remains to be answered.  Getting extra bloodghast triggers if you have the mana, and the ability to ramp out of the yard seem like fine functions.  Getting to 4G for a giant Troll seems pretty easy with this.
15  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Westvale Abbey/Ormedhahl, Profane Price on: March 17, 2016, 01:08:32 pm
5 mana is way too much for these abilities.
16  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Traverse The Ulvenwald on: March 17, 2016, 01:06:47 pm
Better than worldly tutor I guess.
17  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Nahiri, the Harbinger on: March 15, 2016, 08:00:00 am
Building around her ultimate seems awkward.  You need to pass twice with her in play and not have her get attacked.  Her other 2 abilities are fine, although not great.  If she was blue I could see a place in Vintage.  You might see a random top 8, but I doubt anything lasting with it as is.
18  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 13, 2016, 06:10:35 pm
Would you feel differently if they did not explicitly state that there was a side agreement in place? You said that they can play whatever they want, so what if they had picked those decks without telling you beforehand that there would be no workshops or bazaars? I don't believe there would have been the variety of decks that was played otherwise.

No, it still would have been clear that something was going on given they played almost 0 dredge/shops hate in all 6 decks.  I guess at least they were honest in the fact they weren't playing Vintage. 

Is that what passes for variety?  3 Gush decks, 2 drain decks, and 1 storm?  5/6 decks I would barely be able to distinguish between each other if you gave me random opening 7's.  If this is the format without Shops and Bazaar, I really want no part in it.
19  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Brain in a Bottle on: March 12, 2016, 05:23:58 pm
Draw 4 cards and put 4 1/1 fliers into play at instant speed does seem pretty insane.  Especially for Modern (that format good grief!).  However, it does require a lot of set up so I'm unsure if it will be good enough for this format. 

I'm rather surprised by the ruling to make it so both halves of the fuse can be played.  Is there a source for this?
20  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 11, 2016, 09:55:37 pm
My argument is that the competitors on the VSL should have the freedom to play the decks they want to and that this backlash against "anti-Shops, anti-Dredge sentiment" is unwarranted.

They can play whatever they want sure, but making a side agreement to not play half the metagame is not Vintage.  I'm curious as to what does warrant criticism then?  What if they had an anti-blue sentiment?
21  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 11, 2016, 06:57:12 pm
The entertainment arguement seems to be continually brought up.  Isn't every game and sport designed for entertainement purposes?  Changing rules for this sake would be the equivalent of the NFL deciding no more running plays because they are boring to a casual fan.  Or baseball allowing legalized steroid use so that we can see more home runs and strikeouts.  The nice thing about many sports and games is that at every level the game is mostly the same (maybe some very minor changes).  The Vintage I play has the same rules as the Vintage the VSL plays.  When they decide to make massive rules changes, in the middle of the playoffs no less, we are no longer playing the same game.

Complaints about narrative are fair but when the meta naturally gravitates towards the most competitive of archetypes and subsequently the players get tired of said archetypes - a switch up is probably for the best unless you want to keep the assumedly incorrect narrative rolling.

Arguments about meta representation are rapidly becoming wearisome. You're just not going to get an accurate representation of paper meta on MTGO even excluding player bias, meta constraints, and the minuscule sample size. At the end of the day VSL is about displaying the most interesting Vintage content and Dredge/Workshops just isn't that for the majority of the MTG playerbase. The match ups tend to be fairly repetitive and lacking in interaction - this more than anything else feeds into preconceived notions about the format.

Man o man.  Based on these statements I'll assume you've never picked up a workshop or dredge deck, but knowing that you like to make hyperbolic statements that might not be the case.  Dredge and workshops have a ton of interactive games with high level thought involved.  Ochoa vs Detwiler in the play in is a great example of this, which was in fact VSL content.  We of course get no good dredge content because no one in the league has any clue on how to build or play that archetype.

The meta has gravitated to 4 pillars banning 2 of those 4 pillars on a gentlemen's agreement is most decidedly not Vintage content at all.   If a majority of the viewers enjoy it so be it, but please don't call it Vintage content.  Some of us actually enjoy watching real Vintage.

So calling the format a 2 deck format, while there are clearly 4 pillars, is incredibly disingenuous.  Especially considering 3 of the 4 pillars have large amounts of diversity.  How many formats in magic right now have 4 main pillars, and a number of tier 2 non pillars?

You're basically complaining to complain and now resorting to making baseless character assumptions. Good luck man.

Like I was saying you seem to love using Hyperbole... I'm not sure how that statement is interpreted as a baseless character assumption unless you factor in some massive exaggeration.
22  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 10, 2016, 04:39:01 pm
Complaints about narrative are fair but when the meta naturally gravitates towards the most competitive of archetypes and subsequently the players get tired of said archetypes - a switch up is probably for the best unless you want to keep the assumedly incorrect narrative rolling.

Arguments about meta representation are rapidly becoming wearisome. You're just not going to get an accurate representation of paper meta on MTGO even excluding player bias, meta constraints, and the minuscule sample size. At the end of the day VSL is about displaying the most interesting Vintage content and Dredge/Workshops just isn't that for the majority of the MTG playerbase. The match ups tend to be fairly repetitive and lacking in interaction - this more than anything else feeds into preconceived notions about the format.

Man o man.  Based on these statements I'll assume you've never picked up a workshop or dredge deck, but knowing that you like to make hyperbolic statements that might not be the case.  Dredge and workshops have a ton of interactive games with high level thought involved.  Ochoa vs Detwiler in the play in is a great example of this, which was in fact VSL content.  We of course get no good dredge content because no one in the league has any clue on how to build or play that archetype.

The meta has gravitated to 4 pillars banning 2 of those 4 pillars on a gentlemen's agreement is most decidedly not Vintage content at all.   If a majority of the viewers enjoy it so be it, but please don't call it Vintage content.  Some of us actually enjoy watching real Vintage.

So calling the format a 2 deck format, while there are clearly 4 pillars, is incredibly disingenuous.  Especially considering 3 of the 4 pillars have large amounts of diversity.  How many formats in magic right now have 4 main pillars, and a number of tier 2 non pillars?
23  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 10, 2016, 12:57:52 pm
Workshops and Dredge have gotten plenty of screen time. I see no issue in trying to mix things up as neither deck is particularly interesting to watch on stream (outside of corner cases). After all isn't the point of VSL to expose the masses to this great format, introducing them to a wide spectrum of viable play?

There's a lot of talk about player retention and generating Vintage hype; perhaps being more supportive of an open VSL instead of bitching about individual Vintage privilege/bias is the play.

The wide spectrum of Blue times 5 and Storm?  4 seasons in and we haven't seen a hate bears deck once, which conceivably is the entry level deck into Vintage.  None of these discussions started until the VSL started to talk about how unhealthy our format is.  Do you think that narrative is good for luring in new players?  The fact that the narrative is largely false, especially comparative to every other major format, just furthers the dissentment.  Let's play not Vintage for the semifinals of the Vintage Super League is pretty silly to me.
24  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 10, 2016, 12:46:46 pm
I don't know who said playing Workshop or Bazaar is ungentlemanly. Maybe you don't see what a gentleman's agreement means. I'm not saying I was a fan of the agreement, but it's the perogative of those two players to play whatever they feel like playing and have fun with.

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I didn't like the agreement, but that's my own opinion. It's not my place to force that opinion onto other people. If LSV and Efro have more fun playing Blue mirrors, isn't that their business?

Gentlemen's agreement =/= Gentlemen's blue.  I'm referring to the gentlemen's blue narrative not the agreement.

LSV and Efro can play whatever they want, but don't call it Vintage if it's not Vintage.
25  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 10, 2016, 11:23:33 am
This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I wasn't a fan of the "gentlemen's" agreement.  First, this is not even Vintage anymore with this agreement in place.  It's the equivalent of saying "Hey let's ban these two format staples".  So in the interest of this league actually being the Vintage Super League and not the Arbitrary Eternal Format Super League, I'd hope that this agreement is a one time thing.  

Also somehow playing Workshop or Bazaar is ungententlemenly?  When people talk about pretentious Vintage players this is exactly what they are talking about.  It continues to be disappointing to me to see these stereotypes of Workshop and Bazaar as the bad guys on such a big stage.  How about we just sleeve up our decks and have some fun, not worrying about the health of a healthy format?
26  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Thing In The Ice on: March 08, 2016, 04:46:32 pm
Don't really see how this is tarmogoyf at all.  This needs a deck heavy in instants/sorceries, is much more vulnerable to bounce spells, and much less reliably an attacker.

The closest comparison of cards in terms of effect is Crush of Tentacles.  That card is relatively new though, and no one has really played it yet either.
27  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Thing In The Ice on: March 07, 2016, 01:35:58 pm
Quote
Notable cards it does not bounce: Ichorid, Flipped Delver, and Revoker.

Quick note - Flipped Delver is NOT a horror, so this bounces it. Just a nitpick but I've actually heard three or four people say this already today, so it seems to be a common misconception

I don't think that difference makes the card critically better or worse though

Ah my confusion with the new one that turns it into a horror.  I think that makes it worse.  You can't really play this along side any of the other common creatures in Vintage right now.  Snapcaster is the only one off the top of my head that plays nice.
28  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Thing In The Ice on: March 07, 2016, 12:56:58 pm
Very good card on paper.  Kills tokens, 0/4 is good against Shops, uncounterable instant speed bounce against Dredge and oath.  It's blue so on color for almost everything.

However, there are some limitations.  Swords is a straight 1 for 1, and bounce spells can slow it down dramatically as win con.  It doesn't play nice with your own mentors/Pyromancers.  Notable cards it does not bounce: Ichorid, Flipped Delver, and Revoker.
29  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: TheManaDrain.com - New Direction? on: March 06, 2016, 05:39:15 pm
@Chubby/Khahan/Peach: It seems too often that we end up with: If you don't have results, its where are your results.  If you do have results, its your results are isolated to only you as a player.  Then they talk about how the deck looks, and never say anything about how it plays.  Some paraphrased recent paraphrased quotes I've gotten : "This looks bad you don't play Golgari Grave-Troll".  "This looks bad you only play 2 bridge from below".  Both of which had full paragraphs in my write up.  The quality of posts is extremely low at times, and honestly I can't remember the last time that I've received constructive feedback on this website that has improve my play or deck building.  That being said...


This is where I think its more up to the community than the admins to policy quantity.  The statements, "this looks bad because..." are pure opinion yet presented as fact which is what happens often when quality discussion decline.  Were they challenged? Were the reasons for 2 bridges explained by the OP or anybody else in the thread?

It does seem as if there are a handful of us that agree on one of the problems.  Are there enough of us to do something meaningful about it?

They were challenged, but when half the comments in every forum are of this quality, it really detracts from having any meaningful discussion.  It's hard to fix this though.  Moderation is not the answer as this makes people less likely to post in general.  Judging by all the activity on Facebook groups, there is definitely room to increase the activity and quality of posts in the drain.  For whatever reason it's currently not the case though.
30  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: TheManaDrain.com - New Direction? on: March 06, 2016, 12:53:07 pm
@Chubby/Kahan/Peach: It seems too often that we end up with: If you don't have results, its where are your results.  If you do have results, its your results are isolated to only you as a player.  Then they talk about how the deck looks, and never say anything about how it plays.  Some paraphrased recent paraphrased quotes I've gotten : "This looks bad you don't play Golgari Grave-Troll".  "This looks bad you only play 2 bridge from below".  Both of which had full paragraphs in my write up.  The quality of posts is extremely low at times, and honestly I can't remember the last time that I've received constructive feedback on this website that has improve my play or deck building.  That being said...

The drain has still been a good place to find tournament reports, deck lists, and a place to discuss the direction of the format (like this thread).  It would be nice if the drain could be more of course.


Agreed. But how do we, as a community, foster that discourse?

That's the million dollar question. Like Godder said, it comes from the people using the forums and is largely independent of what administration does. It's been frustrating though watching people I respected give up on this forum and not post anymore. And I know my frustration comes out in some of my posts.

I'm unsure of that.  There are definitely people I know who stopped using this forum, or have greatly reduced their usage due to what the administration is doing.  Largely having to do with inconsistent moderation.  I was also not a big fan of basically kicking all non-native english speakers off the forum since they couldn't follow the stringent grammar codes...
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