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1  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Thing In The Ice on: March 14, 2016, 10:15:23 am
TITI can also be combined with Vampire Hexmage and Hex Parasite. No need for instants and sorceries ⌒.⌒

Hmm, that is actually an interesting interaction I didn't know about before I said this card was terrible.  Dark depths, thespian's stage, vampire hexmage, thing in the ice in a blue black shell is pretty reasonable.  Vampire hexmage is actually a very good magic card.  

Am I right that even after a Hexmage you need to cast a spell to trigger the flip? If so, hexmage really only save you two spells. Maybe this is enough in a shell with the more broken Hexmage targets.
2  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: Vintage 101: Eternal Masters of the Universe on: February 19, 2016, 02:44:07 pm
I liked that you discussed the different effects the sets would have on paper and the digitla game. I suspect the set will significantly decrease the cost of getting into Eternal in Digital and little effect in paper. I felt that this article really seems like part 1 of a pretty sweet article you can write once a more comprehensive spoiler is released. Also, it may effect what decks could be suggested as more budget friendly ways to get into Vintage on MTGO.

Like Black Lotus\CR
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Is Your Current Vintage Deck Proxy Free? on: January 13, 2016, 04:23:25 pm
When I could find games in Minnesota nearly everyone ran proxies. If I had a reason to have a paper vintage deck it would be only partially powered without proxies.
4  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Power Nine Challenge - Saturday, January 30th on: January 13, 2016, 04:05:41 pm
This is actually a good question. It's not listed on the most recent MTGO Announcement article:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-online-announcements-january-12-2016

That article is what got me searching the mothership, and I couldn't find any mention of vintage other than the daily events.
5  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Power Nine Challenge - Saturday, January 30th on: January 13, 2016, 01:39:28 pm
How certain is this twitter confirmation? I failed to find anything on the mothership to confirm this event is on, so I came over to here to see if there was any news on it. If it does happen I will continue to support these.
6  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Vintage Power Nine (?) Tournament - 10/24 on: October 26, 2015, 08:26:31 pm
Overall, I am very glad Wizards decided to hold this. My only gripe (other than scrubbing out hard, but that is on me) is it seems the payout was extremely light for the turnout. I do appreciate the prize payout was quite generous for the minimum number of players required to fire. However, if over time these events regularly attract enough players that we have a 7+ round event, we should request that WoTC doubles the value of the prize support and perhaps makes the prizes a little less top heavy as making top 8 of a 100 person event should more than just double somones entrance fee. I think this event was awesome and hope that WoTC used the event to observe interest in the format and will scale the prizes accordingly. Also, having even more attractive prizes may inspire greater levels of player activity in the format which seems to be the goal of the event.

 Thanks again to Rich and Steve for their initial letter. Thanks to WotC for scheduling the event and to the community for supporting it. See everyone next month.
7  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Vintage Power Nine (?) Tournament - 10/24 on: October 24, 2015, 02:59:16 pm
Thank you Steve and Rich, hopefully this will help to revitalize Vintage online. Its at least driving serious interest for one day.
8  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Vintage Power Nine (?) Tournament - 10/24 on: October 19, 2015, 05:59:20 pm
Off the cuff, just saw it, didn't calculate the EV response:
SWEET!

Missed the BFZ set for second. So this is about as top heavy as it gets, but it looks sweet. I have my calendar cleared for Saturday.

Also, given that the order of power is based off the supposed power of it rather than its price, some positions actually pay less than lower positions.

Assuming play points are worth 10 cents since that's the conversion rate WotC's claiming, using GoatBots buy prices and disregarding the cost to transfer tickets to real money, net payout:

1: DOLLAR DOLLAR BILL YA'LL (I'm not going to calculate this but it's good)
2: $42.51
3: $29.01
4: $18.51
5: $20.51
6: $15.51
7: $14.41
8: $17.01
9-16: $0
17+: -$25

IDK if MTGO uses the same pairing system as real magic, but if so, the event is a minimum of 6 rounds.

That's the second missed BFZ and it quotes me. But assuming your other calcs are right. 2nd should be about 120 bigger.
9  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Vintage Power Nine (?) Tournament - 10/24 on: October 19, 2015, 01:12:37 pm
Bump for justice

Tl;dr: It's a 25tx/250PP event on the fourth Saturday each month, starting next week.

1st: Lotus, Twister, full BFZ, full foil Bfz, 500PP
2nd: Recall, 400PP
3rd: Sapphire, 300PP
4th: Ruby, 250PP
5th: Jet, 250PP
6th: Pearl, 250PP
7th: Emerald, 250PP
8th: Walk, 250PP
9-16th: 250PP

11AM Pacific (-7 UTC)
33-player Minimum

Daily Event will still be live, so if it doesn't fire you still have an event to play.

Missed the BFZ set for second. So this is about as top heavy as it gets, but it looks sweet. I have my calendar cleared for Saturday.
10  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Suggestions For Improving the Online Vintage Experience on: October 09, 2015, 11:19:51 pm
For historic booster prices I checked out goldfish. I would say for khans block packs 2.5 seems like a reasonable average.
11  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: October 08, 2015, 05:51:03 pm
Thanks Montolio. I saw something about a tmd clan. I'll have to get hooked up with that too.  I went and found that p9 at mtgotraders.com along with a full set of duals and the blue fetchlands, tolarian, stripmine, workshops and library was like $540.  Add in FoW, mana drain and a few other cards I would need for the deck I want and I'm looking at about $800 to get started, maybe more as I haven't looked up my whole deck  yet.  Though once over that initial hump building from there wouldn't be so bad. Any other deck I'd want to build in Vintage I'd have all the expensive cards out of the way and it would just be nickel and dime stuff after that.


If you aren't familiar with it, the site MTGGoldfish.com is a great site if you want to get a sense for what it would cost to build most of the popular decks acrossed formats. Also, while looking at decks there is a link to buy the complete deck. Not practical if you have a good collection going, but great if you know where you want to jump in. I think its fair to say MTGO has it shortcomings, but I honestly have never had more fun with the actual playing the game part of Magic as I have since I got into Vintage on MTGO. The collecting and people part is inferior and I find multiplayer to be unplayable, but regular two players games are great. Hope you decide to join in the fun.
12  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Suggestions For Improving the Online Vintage Experience on: September 15, 2015, 01:04:49 pm
I thought this was a very well thought out and written letter. And I truly hope WoTC takes it to heart. It wasn't directly addressed in your letter (or my memory is failing me) but your suggestion of quarterly tournements happens to lign up pretty closely with WoTC set release schedule. MTGO already hosts standard and limited  championships to celebrate most sets and awards pretty nice prizes to the winners of these events. I would think it would be nice if WOTC institutued a parallel structure for eternal players. If they rotated between legacy and Vintage it would be a boon to the eternal community and would fit nicely into MTGO's current structure. Though it would be less helpful to this community they could include modern in the rotation so that everyone gets to play in these, not just standard and limited players.

On a somewhat related note, I hope the leagues rollout eventually includes Vintage, as the feedback I have heard has been fairly positive for the standard league. Granted Vintage has the issue of reaching critical mass of players, but if it is met, it would address the timetable issue Montolio mentioned as you can play at will without downtime and the prizes are somewhat better than the currently terrible prizes for the Vintage daily events.
13  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: August 30, 2015, 04:58:02 pm
Really the problem with the new daily events is that they are no longer subsidizing the prize pool. Under the old system more MSRP came out than was put in. Now less MSRP comes out than is put in and this is true of all events that pay out play points. Under the old system players were incentivized to lock in for 4 hours of play time. I calculated EV at a 50% win rate for the new daily events and playing 3 2-mans. The EV for daily events was 1 play point higher than just playing 3 2-mans. Why would I lock myself in to play for 3 hours to increase my EV by approximately 1 untradeable dime?
14  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Return to Zendikar Treasures on: August 30, 2015, 04:50:45 pm
Oh, I thought they were reprints from the Battle for Zendikar set.  Oh well...guess my misty rainforests still need to wait.

They are reprints in Battle for Zendikar boosters, but as mentioned above they are super rare (Foil Mythic Rare) and if I understand the announcement correctly, aren't considered as being in Battle for Zendikar for set legality purposes. I.e. this printing doesn't make them standard legal. This announcement really sucks as I wanted to get some cheap enemy fetches instead we get hyper rare and expensive enemy fetches.
15  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies on: July 28, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
So what's the plan? We all need each other if we want to continue on with MTGO Vintage. Are we going to wait and see what happens in the next year or just cash in our chips and forget about it?  

Ive been in the latter camp for a few months now because of the P9 price trend.  They've been dropping in price since they were released and we all speculated them to do the opposite.  The fact is that digital goods are super fragile investments.  

I originally bought Black Lotus for $250. Its now $95 and Vintage Dailies will soon stop firing.

Sell low isn't the best stock advice. Additionally, it shouldn't be that hard to fire 8 man dailies, but I guess we'll see. I really don't care what the price of power 9 is because I see no reason to ever sell mine.

I second this. Any money I spend on cards whether cardboard or digital I assume is consumed as I just want to play with it. Only way I am selling is if I can no longer even find a casual game to play, if we reach that point its probably not even worth my time to try to find a buyer.
16  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies on: July 24, 2015, 11:12:24 pm
Simple version:
1) Packs were being given out at a fast rate than they were being drafted so they were being very devalued.
2) You can't give tickets as prizes cause of gambling issues.
3) They made a new ticket type to get around this issue.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the people most upset by the daily changes are the ones who played them and pretty much nothing else. AKA people who want to play for free or actually view MTGO as a way to make money.

Not saying that isn't the rationale, but 1) why is the value of packs suddenly a problem now?  What triggered this problem or changed recently to prompt a policy response?  And 2) then how do Grand Prix, SCG Opens, and other major tournaments give away cash prizes? 

1. It's actually been a problem since around the time of Gatecrash, but I do think its gotten slightly worse recently. When the redemption fee was increased from $5 to $25 there was a larger decoupling of prices from MTGO and paper magic.
2. (Disclaimer - Not an attorney and may be completely incorrect) - Jurisdictional differences. I believe the Federal Government limits internet gambling in the U.S. whereas, for live tournaments its a state issue. Some states allow betting on games of skill while others do not. I wonder if we listed out where Grand Prix have been held if we could figure that out, or prove me completely wrong?

Interestingly those tournaments generally have terrible EV and no one complains about that.

17  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies on: July 22, 2015, 09:02:49 pm
Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?

Not sure if you were truly looking for an answer on this but I will attempt to field it. Wizards saw that the economy and current state of affairs of the MTGO economy was completely broken. This was most evident in the disparity between the MSRP of booster packs and their secondary market value. For most events offered the MSRP of prize support packs was roughly the value of the entry fees. While this is perfectly reasonable approach to prize support, the problem was the devalued secondary value of booster packs served as a disincentive to play in events and likely resulted in reduced revenue to Wizards as everyone knew not to purchase boosters at MSRP from the store.

In order to address the issue of devalued prize support Wizards wanted to create a system of prize support which essentially put a floor of the value of the prize support. This is how the play points nonsense was developed. The play points should address secondary market issues through both reducing supply and creating a fixed value (i.e. ability to play in future events). The glaring problem with this solution is that as play points are untradeable they have no secondary value and therefore are no longer a store of value for a large portion of the community. I earlier expressed that this didn't bother me as I primarily used event tickets to enter events anyway, but I realized I was missing the point, tickets are the de facto currency on MTGO and have a value as determined by the market. Any event that pays out in play points essentially removes value from the MTGO economy.

As mentioned the rationale was to create a method of prize support that creates a floor in value. It has been asked if the goal is to create a floor in prize support why not just offer Event tickets as prize support. I think the most likely reason that Event tickets as prize support is not possible is that it would run directly afoul of gambling laws in most jurisdictions. Although I am not an expert in that area it seems pooling a form of currency and dispersing based on a game of luck (and skill) would generally meet the definition of gambling. By creating a non-currency as a form of prize support Wizards likely avoids running afoul of these laws. So the upside is a prize support with a fixed value. The downside is a prize support that each recipient has to value individually and only being satisfied if entering events is sufficient compensation.

None of this justifies the abysmal rate at which they assigned prize support to the various tournament structures especially the daily events which have historically been MTGO's flagship events.
18  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies on: July 20, 2015, 09:30:33 pm
The announcement of play points itself doesn't particularly bother me. The fact that the primary aspect of the prizes is entry to future events is all I have ever used event tickets for, but I understand that some members of the community grind to grow their collection so I suspect this will undermine their efforts.

Its every aspect of the changes to the Daily events that bothers me. Not only does this change eliminate the only positive EV event, from my calculations it makes the daily events actually the worst EV events to participate in. That in addition to the fact that they decided to double the entry fee, truly removes any desire I had to participate in Daily events and makes me worry for the health of the MTGO Vintage Community. I haven't played in a huge number of daily events and haven't found much success when I have, but I have been the person to help the damn things fire a time or two. If there are many more like me, I imagine the events that barely fired suddenly won't.

The only saving grace I see in this is that WotC is in the business of making money. If this change is abysmal as everyone thinks it is, and people wise up and abandon dailies, WoTC will address prize support/entry fees in order to fix their cash cow. Until then, I'll continue to hang out in the Tournament practice room until this gets fixed.
19  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: VICE Magic the Gathering Documentary - Featuring the NY Vintage Crew on: May 11, 2015, 10:01:50 pm
I thought this was a really good except for one part that annoyed me. I felt the part where Greg Fenton was acting coy about the contents of some of his collection should have been edited out. At first I was annoyed that Greg was holding back something potentially interesting, but later realized Greg likely has his reason and the editor should have removed this section as it built the viewer up without a payoff. Otherwise a cool look at a great game.
20  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: February 22, 2015, 11:34:41 pm
Has anyone experienced a high amount of angry people on MTGO? Seems like the good sportsmanship of the paper vintage community has not transferred to MTGO whatsoever.

People tend to voice frustration more readily online because there's no human element. You're sitting by yourself at home looking at a screen. There's no social pressure to maintain your composure, and some people let themselves go quite a bit.

I think it is fairly well understood that the anonymity offered by the internet lowers the behavior level of many people. However, one though I had and wish we could test, is that I suspect the average age of vintage players on MTGO is likely significantly lower than in the paper game. To some extent the financial barrier to entry into the paper game attracts a player more likely to behave in a sporting manner.
21  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / MTGO: Vintage Bad Moon Rising #7 Sunday January 4 on: January 03, 2015, 11:43:04 am
The January edition of this tournament is tomorrow. Full details at puremtgo article below. Note start time is 11AM EDT.

http://puremtgo.com/articles/slug-life
22  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Holiday Special Vintage Tournament on: December 20, 2014, 07:20:12 pm
If Ethan is around, thanks to WoTC for putting this on it was good times. Ended up 5-3, lets do it again  Smile
23  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Holiday Special Vintage Tournament on: December 20, 2014, 12:28:02 pm
Looks like the future champ has 11 rounds of fun ahead of them  Smile Good luck everyone.
24  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Holiday Special Vintage Tournament on: December 15, 2014, 11:45:31 pm
I qualified in my first Vintage DE ever last Friday as well. I am glad WoTC created this. It seems to be driving interest in both the DEs and in the tournament practice room.
25  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: December 09, 2014, 08:40:52 pm
Quote
Wizards does not control the secondary market.

Perhaps not directly. However, they do still at least indirectly control it. Excluding Wasteland from Vintage Masters, for example, kept that card's price much higher than it otherwise would have been.

I obviously can't disagree as  WoTC has absolute control on what it includes in its sets in both the digital and paper settings. The exclusion of Wasteland had me convinced that the mystery GPs were going to be GP Legacy Masters. By excluding non-reserve list staples from Vintage Masters they seemed to be setting up a paper Legacy Masters.

On the actual topic, I am still satisfied with buying into MTGO. I have purchased two Black Lotuses this year, a digital one and a paper one. The digital one sees play most nights when I am not traveling for work. The paper one looks pretty and hasn't been played with once. (Seems silly to sleeve up real power in proxy events).  While I am not dissatisfied with either purchase, I will say I have gotten significantly more value from the unknown length lease on the digital Lotus than true ownership I have in my pretty piece of cardboard.
26  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 14, 2014, 01:01:51 am

Unfortunately, Vintage on MTGO is still like playing anything on MTGO, except worse. I could continue with the xyz of MTGO's failures as a viable product, but I'll spare you the frustration of reading it again. I'm sure you all know all to well, but I wouldn't have believed it was as bad as it is even if you told me. The daily events no longer existing... that did it for me. It made me regret buying in. The whole point of MTGO is to get to play MTG when you want to play MTG. It's supposed to make it easier to your hobby into your life. Instead, I've been told I can only play on the weekend. Like it or lump it.

If I had to do it again, I wouldn't. To anyone considering buying in, I'd do some serious soul searching about how bad you actually want to play vintage before you decide to do so.


Wizards removing the workweek daily events has actually seemed to be a boon for tournement players, as the dailies are firing again with some regularity. I have no direct concern with the dailies failing to fire as I have yet to try to play in one in the four months since buying in, but I am worried about dwindling interest in Vintage on MTGO. I don't really care what the price for Power is as I assumed I was never going to get my money back, and I was okay with that as long as I could play Vintage as frequently as I want. I still don't have troubles finding games regularly, but I have noticed reduced traffic in the tournament practice room. I hope falling prices along with the holiday Vintage tournement will inspire more people to explore vintage.

I wanted to respond to your last sentence more specifically. While "soul searching" strikes me as somewhat over dramatic for discussing something as mundane as spending money on a game, I think it is valid to ask what someone wants from their MTGO experience. If the answer is to have fun playing a digital version of a very fun game, I would still strongly recommend buying in. As I am not been playing for prizes any bugs I have encountered have been meaningless. If a user wants to play for prizes (as nominal as the are for DEs) then all the well documented shortcomings of the platform have real consequenses, and a potential user needs to question whether they can tolerate these problems or if they will outweigh the enjoyment they will get from playing the game.
27  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: November 04, 2014, 12:15:27 am
Wizards of the Coast blatantly and publicly lied about when the VMA drafts would end on MODO. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that they would be truthful about the Reserve List or anything else. I have no idea whether the Reserve List will remain, but the fact that they lied about VMA drafts ending is proof that they as a company are willing to go back on what they have said. I think that this is worth keeping in mind if you ever think that Wizards won't go back on their word regarding the reserve list.

I am fairly certain you are referring to the VMA drafts will be done in a couple day, never mind they will last until Khans comes out debacle. If this is correct, I don't think this a fair comparison due to the fact that the powers that be at WoTC changed their minds because a significant portion of the player base felt it was they that were getting lied to, because many people were operating under the understanding that drafts would be live as long as Vintage Masters was available for sale in the online store. While I do understand that many people (I believe including you) bought in during the spike in prices due to the pending end of drafts, WoTC was in the uneviable situation of being perceived as lying no matter what they chose to do. 

They don't have the "luxury" of having a terribly worded announcement to fall back on to reverse their position. The reserved list is a long standing policy, which with the closing of the foil loophole, is pretty easily understood.
28  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: TMD MTGO Open - October 19th on: October 19, 2014, 06:47:38 pm
It ended up being a small turnout of 14 players, who graciously accepted my renege on the prize structure, otherwise I would have taken a serious hit. I'm not too sure why the attendance/interest was so low, given that the premiere event easily maxed out. Any feedback would be appreciated.


To be fair only  a single PE maxed out. All others failed to attract even the minimum number of participants. A couple of thoughts, personally, the increasing entry fee turned me off. My life is busy enough that I am not going to be able to pre register for this sort of event and I am not willing to pay an additional fee to participate in an event because of it. Secondly, I wonder if the proximity to eternal weekend may have been an issue. I.e. People not wanting to give away their tech. Thanks for hosting this and supporting the online community.  I hope more of this sort of event are held and that in the future I can participate.
29  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: October 14, 2014, 10:55:44 pm

If they mirror how they looked back when they still existed on MTGO, they would be run over 4 weeks and the first 3-5 matches would count to the record for the week.  I only ever played in Limited Leagues but I don't see why Vintage or any other constructed format wouldn't work as well.

I think that further matches counted towards a tiebreaker of some variety, but I am not entirely certain.

It certainly would be fun to play in a League environment.  Jamming 2-mans does not interest me and I can never find the time to play in a daily.


This was my understanding  as well. You would get somewhere between 10-20 matches over a set number of weeks. If it is something like 5 matches a week it would allow enough flexibility to allow people like us who can't find 4 hours at a time to play dailies to play competitively, and depending on entry fees you could likely provided large prizes to top performers as you are paying to play somewhere between 3-5 dailies worth of matches. Maybe WoTC will give us more info soon latest update I could find on Wizards is from May promising delivery by the end of the year.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05282014/widebetaupdate
30  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: October 14, 2014, 07:17:57 pm

For anyone curious, I wrote an open letter to Mike Turian today to help get Vintage on MTGO back on track: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-the-state-of-vintage-on-mtgo/

I think this is a pretty interesting read, and hopefully will lead to some changes in the way WoTC handles MTGO. The only thing that struck me as off is that you mentioned that anecdotally the Vintage player base is older with greater responsibilities (full time jobs and families) yet you short change the role of leagues and reach the conclusion that Vintage needs multi round tournaments with top 8's for a robust Vintage community. Assuming leagues are implemented well (if they ever are implemented) I think they will play  a much bigger role in developing a stronger Vintage community on MTGO. For all its shortcomings MTGO still has the great strength of allowing users to play Magic on demand. If well done leagues could provide competitive play with strong prize support while playing to the program's greatest strength. A strength, which in my opinion, is even more important to the Vintage player base as described in your letter.
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