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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 25, 2014, 04:20:50 pm
That's as hobbled by the Reserve List as any other printing strategy. There are plenty of ways to reprint Power without actually breaking the Reserve List. Very few options that don't blow up in their face legally, though.

1. Skirt the reserve list and double the number of Moxes you can play per deck.
--Both paper and online Vintage die unless they tack on a clunky keyword.
1. Skirt the reserve list and double the number of Moxes you can play per deck, but tack on a keyword so you won't.
--This might help Vintage if only because a good alternative to power could double the number of playable strategies.
3. Do nothing.
--Paper Vintage dies.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 25, 2014, 06:44:52 am
I suspect most older players have more appealing things to do then to grind Daily events where even a great player's EV/hour is laughably low. Perhaps something like tournaments for Power, (or better yet original art power) would drive interest in the format.
And that's really the thing: unlike in paper magic where "winning" doesn't make power appear out of thin air, there's no reason at all why tourneys for power online can't generate a larger pool of power.

That said, Cockatrice is pretty good and you don't need to grind.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 24, 2014, 04:32:57 pm
I'd argue that grading is the biggest single threat to cardboard Vintage and the best argument in favor of flooding the market with fake power.

Everyone on the internet listening in...
Printing/forging/laundering money is WAYYYY harder than just printing off good fake Black Lotuses. Carry a bunch of cash across a border/onto an airplane and people ask questions. Carry a stack of Black Lotuses? Easy peasy. Even Bitcoins are more traceable. Black Lotus: the safest way to transport and launder large sums of money.

The FBI and NSA are listening in now? The price of Black Lotus is the largest known threat to national security. It enables money laundering for turrurist organizations. I even heard a rumor that some members of ISIS have Black Lotuses! You should totally have the SEC crack down on this unregulated, seedy, and dangerous commodities market!

While it may be that you were being facetious, this is beyond the pale. The action suggested by this post is in breach of Rule VII(6) - "Any behavior intended to cause severe disruption to the forums or the Vintage community, or which forseeably has that effect."

Following staff discussion, you are banned from TMD.

Anyone else reading - be on notice that Staff will not tolerate suggestions that players should go out and make or buy counterfeit cards and attempt to pass them off as genuine.
-Godder
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 24, 2014, 10:24:21 am
I'm all in favor of accepting proxies, but you're selling the counter-argument very short.  Folks don't say, "I bought in so you should, too."  They're saying that you are more likely to stick with a format if you have invested thousands of dollars into it.  It's like taking advantage of the Sunk Cost fallacy.  Now, you can certainly argue with how much of an effect "buying in" has on the format, but it probably does have some effect and you shouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand.
I didn't dismiss it:
That said, proxies aren't useful for cultivating a feeling of "investment." If a Vintage deck comes out of a laser printer, the only investment/ownership comes from deckbuilding. But we have titans like Menendian and Shay who build mean decks.

If we want to grow the format, we have to give people a mechanism by which to feel invested. I'm always amazed by how much of the business from my online store is clearly driven by EDH. People both buy expensive cards and build "unique" decks because mean decks are implicitly forbidden.
And I'm genuinely in favor of banning Rich from Vintage unless he's playing goblins. In fact, I think we should put it up to a vote. Something like, "Should we all shun Rich unless he plays Goblins at every tourney he attends for the next year?" Given that this is Rich we're talking about, he'll probably win anyways and leave people thinking goblins is a viable deck.

Quote
If you want more people to enjoy the topography of the forest canopy as it was in 2010, well, you're going to have to plant some trees just as tall as the Power Nine right next to them.  (Duck's Dumb Power or something like that).  If you don't mind the forest changing, however, then Wizards can keep right on doing what they are doing - printing other cards that create new local maximums that are not overshadowed by the Power Nine and can compete with them.
And they totally could do this. While it would wreck Vintage as a format, the Commander guys don't think unbanning Mox Ruby would be bad if not for the insane price. It's sort of fascinating to me that they've banned Library of Alexandria for being expensive. "Dumb power" might actually be printed/printable in a Commander product if they ban it in Legacy.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 24, 2014, 09:15:44 am
There's no meaningful legal distinction between an ace of spades with "Black Lotus" scrawled across it and any other ace of spades. You can sharpie whatever you want onto your playing cards and restrict their movement across a table and your hand however you want.

That said, some people think proxies are "bad" for reasons that are usually pretty silly. It's usually commitment principle/rite of passage "I paid for my cards so everyone else can/should pay for theirs." The problem is that there's not enough power to go around even if money wasn't a thing and that proxies function in game just like the genuine article. Gold-bordered power isn't in any sense superior to blanking a card with acetone and printing the relevant information on it (in a non-infringing way).

That said, proxies aren't useful for cultivating a feeling of "investment." If a Vintage deck comes out of a laser printer, the only investment/ownership comes from deckbuilding. But we have titans like Menendian and Shay who build mean decks.

If we want to grow the format, we have to give people a mechanism by which to feel invested. I'm always amazed by how much of the business from my online store is clearly driven by EDH. People both buy expensive cards and build "unique" decks because mean decks are implicitly forbidden.

So:
1. Ban Steve, Rich, and other good players from playing good decks.
--Oh. You've won how many tournaments? That's nice. If you want to play here again, your deck had better have 4 Goblin Lackey in it.
2. Lobby Wizards aggressively to reprint power.
--Fat chance.
3. Work with organized crime in countries with weak rule of law to produce high-quality forgeries of expense MTG cards and flood the market. Black Lotuses are way easier to smuggle than drugs. Just sayin'
--I'm not doing it, but feel free. Just don't tell me and don't tell anyone I inspired you.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 20, 2014, 06:58:00 am
Honestly, I think it would be interesting to test the might of sideboard Donates and Blood Moons against uncounterable Black Lotus that doesn't use the stack and casting Ancestral Recall with Cavern of Souls.

But they're not barred from doing so, and something like that would be the only way to increase the "powered" player base in paper Vintage.
No new power printed + power leaving circulation by grading/damage/etc -> ever-less power -> ever-less power -> ever-less players

The only solutions are reprinting power or an alternative to it. If they just print Snow Power without a clunky no Power clause, the format devolves into turn 1 kills.

Or we could all just use Cockatrice. Just sayin'. It's not like the tourneys held on there in the past were disasters.
7  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 19, 2014, 05:47:14 pm
Why bother risking this?  Just print around the Reserve List and move on with life.
It's not trivial to "print around" the Moxen. The last time they tried, we got Chalice of the Void.

It's easier to reprint power like so:
Quote
Mox Land
Land
Keyword
When ~this~ ETB, you may play an additional land this turn.
{Tap}: C

Quote
Lotus Land
Land
Keyword
When ~this~ ETB, you may play an additional land this turn.
When ~this~ ETB, add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.

Quote
Ancestral Recaller  {U}
Creature - Wizard
Flash
Keyword
When ~this~ ETB, target player draws three cards.
0/0

Quote
Time Walker  {1} {U}
Creature - Wizard
Keyword
When ~this~ ETB, take an extra turn.
0/0

And make a keyword ability that makes you lose the game if you play or control any cards only printed in ABU.
8  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Still working on Disciple of Deciet on: September 17, 2014, 03:13:05 pm
The issue isn't untapping this guy, it's tapping him in the first place. It's hard to imagine a situation in which he's better than Doomsday or even Imperial Seal.
9  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Taigam's Scheming on: September 16, 2014, 08:25:55 am
I know for a while careful planning was a $100 card when people used it in slaver lists.
P3K had such a limited print run that prices are extremely distorted. See: Ravages of War vs Armageddon. There's something like a 1000x difference in price right now.
10  Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Doomsday (the Ritual approach) on: September 15, 2014, 01:24:07 pm
Cause, man, as near as I can tell, Doomsday is favored against literally everything except workshops.
I don't think the Shops matchup is that bad if you're willing to toss some Deathrites and Trygons main.

UR Delver is a beating and much harder to sb against short of something like Engineered Plague resolving very early.
11  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Still working on Disciple of Deciet on: September 13, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
This compares very unfavorably to Doomsday since it gives something like a 2-turn delay from casting until winning.
12  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 13, 2014, 03:55:45 pm
I guess the short version is that the Reserve List is a red herring today, as I said before, and will continue to get less and less relevant over time.  The problem is solving itself. 

That solution does not involve paper Vintage, sadly.
The Reserve List does include Gaea's Cradle, the duals, and other effects that are strong, but not broken. I don't think Snow duals have the potential to break any format and should most definitely be printed. The should also print Snow Wasteland while they're at it (T: colorless; T, sac: Destroy target snow land).

Paper Vintage can only die without some unforeseen action. Power can only leave the market unless prices crash hard and fast and/or Wizards reprints it.
13  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Treasure Cruise on: September 10, 2014, 10:30:50 am


Isn't it better to draw 4 and fill your grave instead of emptying it?
14  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 08, 2014, 10:13:59 am
Snow/Arcane power with a keyword that makes you lose if your deck contains any cards only printed in ABU Limited seems like plenty. That actually leaves real power in slightly better shape because of cards like Illusionary Mask and Time Vault/Timetwister.

Total aside: are there any non-P10 cards played in Vintage today that were only in ABU Limited?

Berserk and Mask are fringe (un)playables. Berserk got reprinted, but Mask never did. Gauntlet of Power sees play in EDH, but not Vintage. Duals had a printing in Revised. Word of Command gets mentioned from time to time, but it isn't even remotely playable.
15  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 08, 2014, 08:23:09 am
The reason it's cost, not availability, is that the vast majority of paper power isn't used for vintage decks. There are more than ten thousand  paper sets of power by most counts. But how many total players in all vintage tournaments annually?  Less than a thousand.  

Limited availability of course drives up the cost of the cards, but lotus is expensive because of collectors who don't play vintage, not those that do.
That breaks down because steadily increasing cost is actually an incentive to sit on your cards as an investment rather than selling them.

If anything, we need the price of power to stagnate or decrease to get it out of collectors' and investors' hands.
16  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 07, 2014, 09:20:17 pm
Any growth in one meta comes at another's expensive.

Yet the number of players & new stores opening keeps increasing exponentially.
Meta, not format. Limited and shrinking number of Black Lotuses -> Black Lotuses can only move from one location to another.
17  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 06, 2014, 05:52:53 pm
I read your post correctly: you think cost is the issue. Cost isn't the issue: no matter how much you're willing to pay for a Black Lotus, no new ones will be printed.

And there are currently dozens of them available for sale on the internet, and far more if you really look.  Supply drives price up but it's not that people can't FIND a Lotus, it's that they can't afford one.  Cost is obviously the issue and I don't understand why you'd say otherwise.
Dozens of people could join Vintage tomorrow! There's enough power for sale in the world to furnish one medium-small local meta.

Snark aside, any growth in one meta comes at another's expensive. The supply of power is both very limited and shrinking year-by-year as cards get graded and/or damaged. Paper Vintage MUST die unless the reserve list is abolished. Online Vintage could grow faster if it was priced a bit more sanely and the interface didn't blow.
18  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 05, 2014, 06:13:15 pm
but if the solution to Vintage being expensive to play is to print so many new cards that remove what makes Vintage Vintagey, it's not something I want to be a part of any more.
You have it entirely wrong. There are a shrinking number of Black Lotuses available for Vintage play at ANY price. Vintage is dying and must die as cardboard goes into long-term storage or wears out.

Wizards idiotically cut themselves off from printing $20k packages of foily Vintage Arsenal.

Since all Black Lotuses that they ever printed were sold long before they modified the reserve to close the "foil loophole," it's not clear to me that they'd be subject to any liability for reopening it. People speculated on a premise. It's not clear to me that poor speculation  in an unregulated commodities market generates the sort of loss you could hold someone else accountable for.

Judging by what you cut off from my quote, you missread my post entirely.  it had nothing to do with quantities of existing vintage staples.
I read your post correctly: you think cost is the issue. Cost isn't the issue: no matter how much you're willing to pay for a Black Lotus, no new ones will be printed.
19  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 05, 2014, 12:05:15 pm
but if the solution to Vintage being expensive to play is to print so many new cards that remove what makes Vintage Vintagey, it's not something I want to be a part of any more.
You have it entirely wrong. There are a shrinking number of Black Lotuses available for Vintage play at ANY price. Vintage is dying and must die as cardboard goes into long-term storage or wears out.

Wizards idiotically cut themselves off from printing $20k packages of foily Vintage Arsenal.

Since all Black Lotuses that they ever printed were sold long before they modified the reserve to close the "foil loophole," it's not clear to me that they'd be subject to any liability for reopening it. People speculated on a premise. It's not clear to me that poor speculation  in an unregulated commodities market generates the sort of loss you could hold someone else accountable for.
20  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 04, 2014, 01:27:28 pm
It isn't "rabble rabble." Except for some dredge builds, every deck is better if it has Black Lotus. There are only so many Lotuses no matter how high the price gets. The format cannot expand unless the supply of Lotuses expands. They need to just bite the bullet and reprint the P9 with an MSRP equal to the current market value. That is, the only damage anyone can claim is that the price stopped increasing.
21  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 03, 2014, 04:48:07 pm
I think WotC just needs to bite the bullet and abolish the reserved list.  I understand that they're concerned about the potential legal ramifications (and I realize that they may even be hamstrung on this point by Hasbro), but it's a problem that's only going to get worse as it's allowed to continue.  The impact it has on the game will only increase as cards wear out and the potential losses by potential legal claimants will only increase as well (increasing their incentives to sue).  Better to just take care of it now.
There would be so many lawsuits I don't think it's realistic.
Entirely their own fault from closing the foil loophole.
22  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: September 03, 2014, 09:59:50 am
To support Vintage, it's absolutely fundamental that there be enough cards for everyone who wants to play. I don't care if that means Vintage Arsenal for $10k. Cost is one thing, there not being enough cards to support the existing player base is another. The reserve list has to be worked around or abolished. That probably means snow/arcane power or online-only Vintage Event Decks. Even silly things like Hurkyl's Recall are prohibitive there.

A lot of people seem to think that paying lots of money makes power fall out of the sky. It doesn't. You bought your power from someone who no longer has it. As people leave the format but keep (or worse GRADE) their cards, the supply will only dwindle further and further.
23  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Howl of the Horde on: September 02, 2014, 12:52:56 pm
Exceedingly powerful with Gush. Turn 3 this -> Gush is GG for sure.
I wish this were true, but I'm not so sure that drawing 6 cards during your own turn, effectively at sorcery speed, and only in your second main if you attacked with a critter is enough.

It's not as though Izzet Guildmage is running amok right now.
24  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Quickest Beatdown in Vintage on: August 19, 2014, 10:28:25 pm
The fastest beatdown is probably something like Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle. Comes down turn 1, kills by turn 3. Oath of Druids into Griselbargain is probably more consistent.

Is there a reason you want to turn critters sideways when your goal is just to reduce your opponent's life total quickly? I agree with Rich that combo decks are probably the best approach if that's your goal.
25  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] The Dredge of Glory - Manaless Dredge in Vintage on: August 06, 2014, 11:45:03 am
So when in Dredge mode: assuming you don't mulligan and open with Library what does it do for you now that you have 6 cards in hands? You pass turn protected by your counterspells?
On the draw, this isn't an issue. On the play, do nothing and go to 8 on your next turn. Play Library, activate it, and discard a dredger in your end step.
26  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] The Dredge of Glory - Manaless Dredge in Vintage on: August 06, 2014, 07:50:26 am
I failed to understand any of the arguments & scenarios you pictured regarding running Library of Alexandria in a Dredge deck or in a Dark Depths shell. Sorry.
That's your fault, not his.

Library: Draw 2, discard 2 each turn.
Bazaar: Draw 3, discard 3 each turn.

Having an extra almost-Bazaar is easily justified on those terms.
27  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: BUg Doomsday. Dark Ritual < Deathrite Shaman on: August 02, 2014, 08:23:07 am
Because the influx of Dack decks means too much countermagic to reliably break through, particularly since you're all in. By contrast, they choke pretty hard on the aggro plan. While turn 1 Doomsday could be nice in certain matchups (Ie. Dredge), it's usually better to Duress turn 1 and go off turn 2.
28  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: BUg Doomsday. Dark Ritual < Deathrite Shaman on: August 01, 2014, 08:38:49 pm
Updating with a more current list:

GushBond core (18 cards):
4 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

BUG Aggro core (7 cards):
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendillion Clique

Combo core (2-3 cards):
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress (Thoughtseize?)

Manabase (21 cards):
1 Lotus
4 Mox (leave out Pearl)
1 Mana Crypt
15 lands

So that leaves us with 11-12 slots to defend ourselves.
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sideboard:
1 Forest
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Trygon Predator
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Thoughtseize
1 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
29  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Should I buy in MTGO? on: August 01, 2014, 09:39:59 am
Unlike IRL, folks online sell off the value cards they draft in order to buy more drafts. That creates a lot of downward pressure on the prices of high $$$ cards from sets that are still open to draft. In addition, the market is very very liquid.

The drafting experience is supposedly great (aside from the crappy UI), but remember that because people sell off their high $$$ cards pretty much immediately after drafting them nobody can really make money doing it. The whole thing is arguably a pyramid scheme and it's certainly paid off handsomely for early adopters, but the future of Vintage is probably online. It's just a matter of time before they find a way to get rid of Cockatrice, so MTGO is probably the future of Vintage.
30  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Commander 2014 on: July 29, 2014, 11:10:48 am
Can you imagine Reshape, Chainer's Edict or Brainstorm as a commander?

Yeah, I reckon I can. Sad
Tez is better than Reshape in the context of Commander. Play a bunch of artifact acceleration, get out Tez with it, search out Winter Orb. Search out Spheres and mana rocks while replaying your general until you use his ultimate to overrun the board.
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