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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Gatecrash Leaks on: December 31, 2012, 04:07:47 pm
You said this...
I think we're talking about different things, D.  ...

But then you said this...
You're suggesting a deck that uses lots of bounce and then uses this fellow to cycle away all of the bounced permanents.  You want to set up an end step Sabotage or two on moxen, then barf up Whispering Madness (or Cipher it off your creature) to eliminate the artifacts and draw more cards to boot.  Alright, I see that.
...which was exactly what I was talking about. So pretty clearly not "different things"...?

At any rate, the bottom line is this: You said the effect is inherently weak, and that's what I disagreed with. The second sentence after I quoted you said that the effect is plenty strong, it's just a question if it was too much trouble to get running. For sake of clarity, my answer to the question is "yes". I don't think this card is too weak for Vintage. I do however, think it's too expensive for Vintage.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Gatecrash Leaks on: December 28, 2012, 02:30:01 pm
One of the most interesting things about this to me is that fact that Cipher doesn't appear to target. Throwing it on something with Shroud to dodge removal sounds like a nice way to avoid the traditional Aura problem.

Really?  I think this card was deceptively well designed and is alot less powerful than people are thinking.
I think you're vastly underestimating this card. I very highly doubt that the question is whether the effect is impressive enough, but rather if the hoops you're jumping through first are too burdensome.

Any deck running this will presumably be built to abuse the hell out of it. Consider how brutal this becomes when paired with any sort of bounce. Hurkyl's hitting say Sapphire and Emerald into Windfall is huge. Rack and Ruin can be backbreaking already, one that costs {1} {U} and cantrips is flat out sick. Hitting any more two targets this way is quite likely autoscoop.

Even ignoring that, the threat of never keeping what's in your hand is disruptive on it's own, forcing suboptimal lines of play.

Against Shops, sure you shouldn't plan on resolving Whispering Madness itself, but mainboard Steel Sabotages and Hurkyl's probably don't hurt your matchup there. Something like the theoretical UB Cipher Boomerang mentioned below on an Angelic Curator/Tel-Jilad Chosen seems like an absolute nightmare.

I'm not saying this will becomd the latest greatest deck in the format, but I'd definitely say it's effect is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for.
3  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [RtR] Epic Experiment - Soon restricted? on: November 08, 2012, 07:04:38 pm
the way it looks like it works is anything you put on the stack after a split second card doesn't get cast.  Anything that goes on the stack before the split second card does.  If you had two split second cards on the stack, neither would get cast.  

All the cards go on the stack simultaneously, but you get to choose the order.
You are wrong, and clearly don't have a very good grasp of Magic terminology. Please don't try to explain things you don't understand. CASTING a spell means taking it from the zone it's in, adding it to the stack, and paying it's costs as needed. You never CAST a spell that's already on the stack. For spells arleady on the stack, the action where it takes effect then goes into the graveyard is called RESOLVING.

Now that the terminology has been ironed out... If you somehow achieve the gamestate where a Spell X with split-second is on the stack, and Spell Y is above it, assuming priority is passed, the stack will clear without incident. Split-second does not stop things from resolving, it only prevents new things from being added in the conventional way. In the scenario above, Spell Y will resolve, then Spell X will resolve. If that same gamestate was achieved and Spell Y also had split-second, the same thing would happen. Spell Y resolves, then Spell X resolves.

I have to wonder what you thought would happen if the rules worked your way. Is the game a draw if you get a spell onto the stack above one with split-second? Neither player can cast spells or activate abilities? Forever? The turn won't progress since the stack never clears, so it's not like you can attack someone to death either. Also, why doesn't split-second prevent the spell which contains the ability from resolving?

Apologies to all for reviving a relatively dead thread, I've been travelling for the last few weeks. I was intending to just catch up on what I'd missed but this was too blatantly wrong for me to leave uncorrected. God help any poor bastard who read this and actually believed that was how the mechanic worked.
4  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [RtR] Epic Experiment - Soon restricted? on: October 11, 2012, 06:26:59 pm
I just realized another reason why this card is awful.  If your opponent has a sphere effect in play, you will have to pay +1 for each spell you want to cast.  Ha.
Uh... yeah? It works exactly like the card people have spent the last two pages comparing it to.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Null Rod and Mana Abilities (specifically moxen, Sol Ring, and artifact lands) on: October 04, 2012, 01:38:45 pm
...and if an Island becomes a creature, and a few turns later, that white creature that says "Creatures can't use activated abilities" comes into play, can the Island tap for mana?
Since nobody has addressed it specifically... No, the Island cannot tap for mana. It works like Moxen under a Null Rod.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Reparations and redirection spells on: October 02, 2012, 06:56:39 pm
You get 1 card, period.

Reparations triggers upon cast. So they will cast the spell, the draw trigger will go on the stack, then players receive priority as normal. Assuming nobody responds to the trigger, you will draw a card. Even if you now chose to counter or change the target of the spell that triggered Reparations, the draw is already on the stack and will resolve unless specifically prevented somehow.

Note that since the triggers is above the spell itself on the stack, it's possible for them to cast Lighting Bolt at your dome, you draw a counter off Reparations, then counter the Bolt.
7  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: I now have a Smartphone. What aps do I need? (free, preferably) on: September 25, 2012, 11:10:01 am
The version of SoundHound I have is free. Don't recall if there's a bigger paid version or not.
8  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: I now have a Smartphone. What aps do I need? (free, preferably) on: September 24, 2012, 06:29:44 pm
Shazam - open it next to any playing music and it will tell you what it is
I use SoundHound. No idea which is superior, just mentioning it as an alternative should you try it and not like.
9  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: I now have a Smartphone. What aps do I need? (free, preferably) on: September 21, 2012, 12:06:09 pm
If you want to root your phone I'd pick up a tether app, and app2sd which allows you to run apps off your sd card
What the hell is rooting your phone?
If you don't know already, I honestly wouldn't worry about it. It's probably not for you. If you're curious though... Wikipedia link.

I'm also on a Galaxy Nexus, with largely the same stuff as emidlin (excluding the programming apps).
10  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: I now have a Smartphone. What aps do I need? (free, preferably) on: September 20, 2012, 07:00:38 pm
...If you want to root your phone I'd pick up a tether app...
If you're with Verizon, they're no longer blocking tethering apps. You no longer need to root. I think AT&T has also removed that restriction, but I'm not sure.
11  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [RtR] Epic Experiment - Soon restricted? on: September 13, 2012, 02:43:19 pm
It just sounds odd to me that an opponent wouldn't get a chance to counter any of the spells exiled. Your explanation makes sense though, and this set already has lots of 'cannot be countered' cards. Even if that is the case, I'm skeptical this card will be Vintage playable.
It's not that they can't counter ever. They just don't get to counter until Experiment has finished resolving (which includes the discarding of uncast spells in exile). The resolution of Experiment just puts the spells on the stack, after which players get priority and all the stuff you cast from exile starts resolving like normal.
12  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Nivmagus Elemental on: September 13, 2012, 02:38:01 pm
I look at this sort of like a Multani's Presence that trades being on color for strength of effect. As Klep mentioned prior, it effectively reads "I resolve every spell I cast or this guy hulks out".

That said, I'd think anyone packing enough mainboard Flusters can definitely mileage out of him. CDawg said earlier that it wasn't worth turning your Flusters into Power Sinks. I disagree. Power Sink has an awesome effect, it's just too pricey. Doing the same for {U} is pretty damn good. The effiency of converting any excess into damage is also a nice side bonus. Fluster for {4} when they've only got two mana up? Even if they pay as much as possible, you're getting a pump out of it.

Regarding dead spells: I think the idea that people would run crappy spells to feed this guys is being overstated. A huge portion of the time, your game one will include at least a handful of spells that are dead (or at least weak) in the matchup. This guy is a blue hoser is his own right while also reducing the drawback of any other narrow mainboard spells you might be running.
13  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [RtR] Epic Experiment - Soon restricted? on: September 13, 2012, 01:56:09 pm
Well we aren't exactly sure how that works yet but if they didn't counter my Epic Experiment

The card works the same way all magic cards work.  Resolve the spell, resolve everything the words on the spell tell you to do, then go to the next priority or the next spell on the stack.  You can't play a mystical tutor after you draw 2 cards from bazaar of baghdad, but before discarding the 3.  Its the same thing. 

I was referring to the simultaneousness of my counters being discarded.  You've got to tone it down a bit
Agreed that someone needs to chill out, but I'm quite confident that the counters cannot be held back.

Unless otherwise specified, spells that allow the casting of other spells during resolution force you decide immediately (eg. Brilliant Ultimatum). Mind's Desire is an  example of how this would need to be templated if it were to allow staggering of spells. In this case, you cast stuff, then stop and discard everything else. The opponent does not receive priority until after resolution (including the discard) is complete, so they never get the opportunity to counter while your cards are exiled.
14  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Ghostly Flicker + Phyrexian Dreadnaught on: September 07, 2012, 12:47:39 pm
Just to expand on the above, the reason Mulldrifter works differently is because the ETB sacrifice is conditional (it only goes on the stack if you paid the Evoke cost). As Clariax explained above, when you Ghostly Flicker your Mulldrifter, the game treats the card that comes back into play as an entirely new object. In this case, that object has not been cast by paying it's Evoke cost (it's mana cost has not been paid at all), so there is no new trigger generated placed on the stack.

It may help to contrast both of Mulldrifter's ETB abilities to remember the difference.
1. Evoke is conditional, and using Ghostly Flicker causes the trigger condition to no longer be true.
2. Mulldrifer's first ability is NOT conditional, so Evoke->Ghostly Flicker will generate two draw triggers (for a total of 4 cards). Dreadnought's ETB ability is also unconditional, so it parallels this ability more closely than Evoke.

15  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SCD] Reverence on: August 21, 2012, 02:30:40 pm
Wouldn't Humility and Reverence be the lockout?  1 of each?  And if your running white, you also get balance and STP and enlightened tutor.
Running any one of these cards is already sketchy. I think "running two of these is terrible" is about as close to a consensus as you'll find on these boards.
16  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SCD] Reverence on: August 17, 2012, 05:57:48 pm
well trygon cannot attack you.  but you are right, it really doesn't stop most of the things you need to stop.  However, it is good vs the green/white and the red/green creature based decks out there.  where it stops everything in their decks but goyf.
I was referring to Moat, rather than Reverence. It's been argued above that Moat is superior in the vast majority of cases, and my point from there was that Humility is probably stronger than Moat in Vintage as well.

Against GW, Moat and Rev are probably about equal in value (not very). Between mana denial keeping this off the board, and mainboard Pridemages to clean up when it actually lands...
17  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SCD] Reverence on: August 14, 2012, 11:58:41 am
you could run it out of the board.  the fact that you can still attack is pretty good
The fact that THEY can still attack (Trygon, Delver, Griselbrand, Emrakul, off the top of my head) is pretty bad. The fact that running this over Humility means you are deliberately leaving the door open for Confidant/Welder/etc to go nuts is REALLY bad.
18  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [m13] Talrand, Sky Summoner on: August 08, 2012, 12:44:12 pm
What is the Arcane Denial package? Countering your own spells to gain 1 net card for  {1} {U}+?

IIRC, the sacrifical spell was typically a 0-cost artifact like Mishra's Bauble or such. The decklist I first saw it in was built around drawing and loading your yard, followed by a massive Will to get tons of free storm and cards from the replayed Baubles.
19  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SCD] Reverence on: August 03, 2012, 02:12:19 pm
Humility and any recurrable critter, such as blood ghast or mishra's factory with a crucible is 100X better than moat or this in the current meta.
Sure, Humility + Ghast is much more of a hard answer than Moat or Rev, but a 1-card solution is generally going to be superior to a stronger 2-card solution in Vintage. You often get just one turn to answer a threat, and trying to grab two pieces is just too hard to reliably achieve. I realize getting your face pushed in by hatebears is generally not a 1-turn clock, but I'm still not convinced that Humility + Ghast is better in the grand scheme of things. This also doesn't start going into the number of slots that package is probably eating.

All that said, if one was dead set on running Humility/Moat/Rev for some reason, I would quite possibly take Humility. It protects itself from things like Trygon and Pridemage while also taking the teeth out of utility dudes Bob, Welder, Delver, Revoker, etc.
20  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Worldfire on: July 24, 2012, 12:53:22 pm
I think Keldon Marauders is probably your best option.

Oblivion Ring/Faceless Butcher/Wormfang Drake/Leonin Relic Warder/etc on your own dude (plays nice w/ Marauders even before Worldfire)
-O-ring lets you use something like The Rack/Iron Maiden/etc or Barbed Wire
-Wormfang Newt or Turtle lets you use something like Pirahna Marsh

Phasing creatures

Ephochrasite (gotta die before Worldfire)

Anything with "Champion a X"

Along the same lines as Rift Bolt, Staggershock might work. Much more taxing on your mana though.
21  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Misthollow Griffin on: April 24, 2012, 03:51:43 pm
Manipulate Fate is a cantrip, so it replaces itself.  Manipulate Fate for 3 griffin's is an interesting play, but it requires 4 slots as had been said by most.  And it "broken blue.dec" what 4 cards would you want to remove for these 4?
You're right, apologies for the oversight. Shoulda RTFC.
22  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Misthollow Griffin on: April 23, 2012, 01:27:52 pm
Who said anything about cutting Jace? I think this cards home is going to be WITH Jace. Yes Jace will be better to cast in most situations when i have 4 mana up, but when my opponent has a bunch of creatures out and all of a sudden hey I can cast my turn 1 force fodder first so he has protection.  And there are plenty of other scenarios I could generate where this is good in conjunction with Jace.

Adding this card to a solid blue shell seems to have no drawback at all.  From my experience vintage seems to skip the whole mid game situation, so you are really in two situations early or late game.

In early game this is amazing force, misdirection, chrome mox fodder.

And in late game when I have plenty of mana laying around its a 3/3 flier.  Also in late game my 1 or 2 copies of manipulate fate, ty Elric I didn't realize this card existed, becomes tremendous to basically search up 9 power worth of fliers at the net cost of 0 cards from my hand.  Also a singleton Relic, fetch-able with trinket mage, which previously was only good against decks relying heavily on their gy now allows me to recur a griffin every turn with its tap ability.  Maybe this is too cute but having 3 3/3 fliers out at all times late game seems pretty amazing.
It's the opportunity cost. EVERY card you ever run takes up a slot that could be something. Auto-includes are simply known to be strong enough that whatever you replace them with will probably be inferior. Unless you're already running 4x Jace, your deck can probably be improved by replacing griffins with Jaces.

Think seriously about the FoW scenario, with CARD being either Jace or Griffin.
1. FoW with only one pitchable card in hand. Griffin wins. You have to pitch something, and Jace obviously does nothing from exile.
2. FoW with CARD and blue filler. Jace wins. Casting Jace is pretty much indisputably better than Griffin + Preordain.
3. FoW with multiple pitchable bombs. Jace wins. You get to choose among your bombs and keep the best thing for your board state. With Griffin, yes you keep your bomb, but  you don't get a choice.
4. No FoW. Maybe you had to Force before drawing CARD, never drew a FoW, or simply didn't need see a threat worth Forcing. Jace wins.

Finally, casting Manipulate Fate is not a net cost of zero cards in hand, it is -1 CA. Jace, on the other hand, is truly neutral (assuming you BS immediately).
23  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Giselda and Sakashima on: April 23, 2012, 12:17:19 pm
One sided Furnace of Rath - Yes Please.
24  Vintage Community Discussion / Type 4 / Re: Power Creep on: April 23, 2012, 11:53:03 am
*how to you make links for card names?
Also, just as a general rule... If you want to know how to do some formatting thing or other, you can often just quote someone who's already done it and look at the markup codes. From there, you can just duplicate what they've done (even literally copy/paste then edit), and just check it via the preview button as you adjust until it looks how you want.
25  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Misthollow Griffin on: April 20, 2012, 11:24:11 am
But I can flood mana and then decide to cast it, or not?
Yes. That's the only way to use mana from Chrome to cast an imprinted Marshmallow (does anyone else see that when they read the name?).

@DubDub: I think the point here is that Jace is better in the vast majority of cases. This is potentially a reduction in card disadvantage, where JMS actually builds advantage on its own. Also, I should point out that if you pitched this to FOW, that means you had a blank sitting in hand until then, which is arguably even worse than losing a useful card.
26  Vintage Community Discussion / Card Creation Forum / Re: A good sideboard option for GW beats against blue/black control? on: April 20, 2012, 11:16:13 am
You're claiming with a straight face that a one-sided better-than Trinisphere wouldn't be the single most brutal effect you could toss at blue?

Brown decks can go Shop -> Trini, whereas an anti-blue Gloom requires a ritual or other acceleration to drop on turn 1.

Also, as Blue Lotus mentioned, most blue decks aren't mono-Blue, and even those that are are much less limited because an anti-blue Gloom would not stop them from dropping artifact mana to start playing around it.
Practically all your bombs ARE still blue though. Jace/Tinker/AR/Walk... Sure you can tutor through this, no problem. But what you're tutoring for is probably going to be blue. Also, it becomes practically impossible to cast a spell and keep countermagic up.

Regarding the point about tutors for removal, that's valid... but only in game 2/3. Unless you're mainboarding Claims?
27  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Misthollow Griffin on: April 19, 2012, 04:29:57 pm
I meant to say Chrome Mox's drawback is eased, not erased.  My mistake.

Edit: And yes, once no longer imprinted the Mox would turn off.  You can use it to cast the Griffin itself though by pooling the Chrome mana and then announcing the spell.

This is probably super picayune and not worth worrying about since you can just float the mana (and I feel like most people do anyway), but does timing really play a factor here?  Is a card's imprinted status checked as a SBE?  Because if it is I don't think it matters whether you float the mana or if you pay for it during announcement, before you get priority. 

Like I said, super super minor but just curious now, haha.
It does matter.

601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.

You place the card on the stack as the first step in the process, meaning that Chrome can't produce mana when it needs to.
28  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Triumph of Ferocity on: April 19, 2012, 02:58:20 pm
Other draw engines available to GW are either creatures such as Edric, Selkie or Ohran Viper, the only alternative is the Sylvan Library. This new card (in GW) is better than any of the prior mentioned engines apart from Sylvan maybe under some circumstances

Other draw engines draw cards by themselves.  Wink
Well in fairness, the deck is entirely loaded with creatures so this should be active as a given the vast majority of the time. OTOH, being able to swing in (exalted Selkie, or say an alpha strike with Edric out) to dig up removal or protection in the face of an opposing BSC seems like another entirely plausible board state where this card is far inferior.
29  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Triumph of Ferocity on: April 18, 2012, 01:26:29 pm
Against drain decks it's probably worse than other draw engines.
This is an incorrect statement. Other draw engines available to GW are either creatures such as Edric, Selkie or Ohran Viper, the only alternative is the Sylvan Library. This new card (in GW) is better than any of the prior mentioned engines apart from Sylvan maybe under some circumstances
How is this better than Edric, Selkie, or Lookout? All of those have the potential to draw multiple cards. With Edric or Selkie, scenarios where you draw three cards off a swing aren't even that farfetched. I guess this is a bit easier to cast, but my impression has been that decks running the above tend to have Heirarch anyway.
30  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: The Days of Magic - novel complete! on: April 18, 2012, 01:04:19 pm

Since I forgot to mention it earlier, big grats to you on this. My father's second book just recently went to print, and he'd been working getting published for probably over a decade now. I've seen a bit of the effort it takes, and yeah... I'm glad I'm not writing a book, heh.
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