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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: December 04, 2014, 07:42:56 am
Cockatrice is a far superior program to MTGO

MTGO is thousands of times more complicated than Cockatrice. Making an interface you can drag and drop pictures of cards into is trivial compared to the amount of work that would go into automating play like on MTGO. Cockatrice might be fast and relatively bug-free, but it's an apples and oranges situation.

The problem with this statement is that Magic Online is a client-server software.

The Client does ZERO rules processing. It's job is solely to move pixmaps around on a screen and communicate via simple directives with the server. The processing power and code complexity involved in this task is very minimal. There is no reason for the client software to be buggy and bloated.

The server does all rules processing and other complex tasks. I can forgive them for the occasional bug in the rules checking because building a Magic rules engine into software is a labyrinthine task (I've tried it).

I can't excuse them, however, for the poor quality of the client software. There is nothing that the MTGO software needs to do, client-side, that Cockatrice doesn't do. For it to be that much of a memory hog and bug-ridden is very troubling.

 

Okay yeah, I'll have to agree with you there. It's bizarre that they can design the vastly more complicated server, but have so many issues with the client.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 27, 2014, 02:54:17 am
If you don't know them, they aren't.

The fact that you have to buy in, are stuck with your account and your game history is recorded adds legitimacy, which attracts players of a higher caliber than cockatrice does.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 26, 2014, 05:22:38 pm
The positives are that it would be a total mess if official tournaments with money on the line were held on cockatrice, where rules are down to the players, rather than highly sophisticated rule checking systems. It's an incredibly difficult thing to program, with dozens of checks to be done every time a move is made, so we have to accept that it's obviously going to be much slower and more buggy than cockatrice. You can't compare the two programs at all. They are completely different in purpose, functionality and level of complexity.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 26, 2014, 09:41:10 am
Cockatrice is a far superior program to MTGO

MTGO is thousands of times more complicated than Cockatrice. Making an interface you can drag and drop pictures of cards into is trivial compared to the amount of work that would go into automating play like on MTGO. Cockatrice might be fast and relatively bug-free, but it's an apples and oranges situation.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 14, 2014, 06:32:45 pm
it's getting increasingly difficult to find more than 1 or 2 games with a different opponent a night.

Wow, really? I'm in Australia and, despite being awake while all the Americans are sleeping, I rarely have to wait for longer than 5 minutes for a game.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 14, 2014, 03:12:13 pm
The worst part about cockatrice is having to watch everything like a hawk to keep people from either being dishonest or making rule mistakes. I find mtgo so much more enjoyable for casual play not having to worry about that.
7  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Online Power Nine Owners on: November 13, 2014, 08:33:03 am
Sell a couple of superfluous paper cards?
8  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 07, 2014, 10:52:00 am
They've been saying the release date for commander is the same as paper (7th November) for a while. Just asked support and they said in about 2 hours (10am PST).
9  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 07, 2014, 08:25:37 am
I can't see the decks in the store or the card on any bot listings. Is it released online at a particular time or something?
10  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: (Article) Evolution of the online metagame on: November 07, 2014, 08:13:12 am
Batterskull in the late game gets stolen by Rich Shay's Dack Fayden and equipped to his Insectile Aberration.

 Very Happy! Did this actually happen? Is there a video? I assume it's from the super league, but I haven't been watching it.
11  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 07, 2014, 01:59:16 am
While it pains me to combo break that extremely effective /thread, I'm a bit confused about when this will be available. What time (+zone) does Commander 2014 come out on mtgo? And how long is it likely to be until this card is available on bots? Are cards 500% overpriced in the first 2-3 days on MTGO or anything like that?
12  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: (Article) Evolution of the online metagame on: November 07, 2014, 12:29:32 am
Cruise is insane. It's an incredible card. I'm not saying that Cruise is overrated or that the best draw engine in the format must be something that doesn't contain Cruise; I'm saying that it's very possible to compete with Delver's draw engine, so there's no need to panic about it being oppressive just because it's currently using Cruise the most effectively.

I'm surprised there are so many Cruise doubters. 5 Ancestrals is a lot of Ancestrals.

9 Ancestrals is more Ancestrals.  Very Happy
13  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: (Article) Evolution of the online metagame on: November 07, 2014, 12:15:16 am
Gushbond is a better draw engine. Landstill with 4 Treasure Cruise has a better draw engine.

Treasure Cruise is a great engine for delver, sure, but that's because it hits the right mana cost to number of cards drawn ratio to allow them to keep deploying threats and cantripping. It solves the problem of an opponent just having to cope with the initial onslaught of creatures before Delver runs out of steam, by letting the Delver pilot reload and go again.

That doesn't mean it's the best draw engine in the format, nor does it mean the deck can't be outdrawn to consistently deal with its threats.
14  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: (Article) Evolution of the online metagame on: November 06, 2014, 11:50:58 pm
Cruise Delver doesn't even have the best draw engine in Vintage. It's just the most efficient one for a fish deck. To beat it you can either:

a) Go over it by doing something broken (Oath, strong Shops openers, Storm, Dredge, etc), or

b) Have a way to x-for-1 their threats AND outdraw them, or

c) Have a way to x-for-1 their threats AND RiP them.

The top sentence in this post is factually incorrect.

The rest of the post belies a deep misunderstanding of Treasure Cruise and Delver specifically, and Vintage Magic in general.

Okay, you got me. Treasure Cruise Delver is unbeatable and I have a deep misunderstanding of Treasure Cruise and Delver specifically, and Vintage Magic in general.

Next time you're going to dispute someone's position, try to have a better argument than...no argument (other than "ur wrong n stoopid").
15  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: (Article) Evolution of the online metagame on: November 06, 2014, 01:49:11 pm
Cruise Delver doesn't even have the best draw engine in Vintage. It's just the most efficient one for a fish deck. To beat it you can either:

a) Go over it by doing something broken (Oath, strong Shops openers, Storm, Dredge, etc), or

b) Have a way to x-for-1 their threats AND outdraw them, or

c) Have a way to x-for-1 their threats AND RiP them.
16  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 02, 2014, 09:15:59 pm
I mean immediate (sorcery/instant) targeted removal, particularly given how important reacting to things at instant speed (or at least that same turn) is in vintage. Black has effects they can drop to deal with things a turn later like Gate to Phyrexia, but it's not much use when dealing with vault+key or Lodestone+Sphere or something. Bounce cards like Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapour and Repeal are more stop gaps than anything, since you have to sacrifice significant card advantage just to delay that permanent from coming down for another turn. Outside of EE and slow effects like Gate, black can really only deal with non-creature threats by countering them to begin with. Given how packed with counters Vintage is, you'd basically have to be a monoblue deck (with a black splash for tutors and discard) to have any hope of dealing with the multitude of bombs vintage decks can play.

I'm all for keeping the colour pie, but I really think that every colour (except blue) should have a reasonably-costed, instant speed way to remove Creatures, Enchantments and Artifacts. I feel like the colour pie should be about what effects a colour can proactively use, rather than what dangerous strategies they are capable of interacting with (again, other than blue).
17  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 02, 2014, 07:41:52 pm
If I could suggest one thing to encourage more creativity in Vintage, it's to make sure that all non-blue colours have decent targeted removal for both artifacts and enchantments. The power of shops and Oath really preclude playing a colour combination without both of these things. IIRC, neither red or black have decent enchantment removal and black has no artifact removal (besides stuff like EE). It's so frustrating to have an idea for an idea for a UB deck or a Grixis deck (that isn't suicide vault+key), but then have to give up on it because you can't interact with any non-creature permanents.
18  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 02, 2014, 09:37:02 am
I wish the day I fell in love with Oath of Druids never existed. It's always something. Nature's Claim, Cage, now this thing. I just happen to love the archetype that goes against everyone's will to turn Vintage into Legacy or Modern (tapping 2/2 dude 10x times to get the job done). FML.

Every deck has to fight through something, though. Oath has always had it pretty easy with only Cage to deal with, compared to Dredge (Cage, Leyline, RiP, Jailer, etc), Storm (Flusterstorm, Trap, Cage, Leylines), etc. It's hard to consider Nature's Claim specific Oath hate: it's just an enchantment removal spell. Its existence almost plays into the Oath pilot's hands, since it's a prime Misstep target. That's like saying the existence of Lightning Bolt is ruining creature decks.

Anyway, all you have to do to get rid of this thing is to Jace or Decay it. It literally dies to the same uncounterable removal spell that Cage dies to and Oath already runs.
19  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 01, 2014, 01:44:51 am
...and the Show and Tell player can always choose to put a different permanent into play losing their Show and Tell but still gaining a little out of it...

Might we even see show and tell decks adapting to drop powerful enchantments instead of creatures postboard against decks with this guy in them? Yawg's Bargain, etc.
20  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: November 01, 2014, 01:18:02 am
I look at this as a way to improve diversity. Yes, it's a silver bullet against Oath, but it also opens up the way for decks without any oath hate other than cage to become competitive (e.g. Humans). Vintage diversity suffers because certain decks only have answers in certain colours (such as the lack of enchantment removal in blue, black and red).
21  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Loreseeker's Stone on: October 31, 2014, 12:34:34 pm
I'm not so much concerned about the power of drawing 3 cards per turn as I am about the amount of mana required to successfully deploy the threats drawn each turn after an activation.
22  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: October 31, 2014, 12:33:19 pm
What happens if you blink it?
23  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: October 31, 2014, 11:20:09 am
Poor Norin.
24  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C14] - Containment Priest on: October 31, 2014, 10:55:38 am
I love this card in control.

How does Oath answer it? Bringing in Decays or other removal out of the board G3 after seeing it G2? Seems a great way to weaken the maindeck. Jace? They've even given it flash to drop straight back into play as soon as Jace bounces it. Show and Tell is a huge pain in some of the recent Oath lists I've played against.

It's a lot stronger than it seems against Dredge, too. Stops Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, Fatestitcher, Dread Return and Ichorid. That basically just leaves Bridge tokens (which Cage can't do much about anyway) and hardcast creatures if you can protect this guy from Darkblast and Chain of Vapor. Some split of 6-7 RIP and Containment Priest (probably 3/4) should be plenty against Dredge.

(Correct me if I'm wrong about any of that. I've never played on the Dredge side of the table before, but it all seems to make sense).
25  Vintage Community Discussion / Community Introductions / Re: TMD on MODO on: October 29, 2014, 10:52:58 am
Me too! "Hashswag" on MTGO.
26  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Treasure Cruise on: October 28, 2014, 03:31:04 pm
Cruise won't get restricted because it doesn't let you pull away from your opponent in the early game. There are plenty of backbreaking late game effects, but we don't restrict all of those.
27  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: October 26, 2014, 01:31:55 pm
It'd be nice if 8-man vintage daily events on MTGO could fire. The regular play would eventually get more people interested in the 16-man ones too.
28  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Oath targets on: October 22, 2014, 09:15:00 am
The 3 chewers were maindeck??? I find really interesting playing them in the sb, but maindecking them seems risky, since most of the time you prefer a griselbrand (you only prefer a chewer when there are cages in play)

Haha I'm not that crazy. I had 2 Griselbrands main and 1 Lab Maniac + 3 Chewers sideboard. This was playing Steve's Burning Long deck in a room full of shops decks running Metamorph/Duplicant (to kill Griselbrand) and Trike (to kill Lab Maniac).

Basically the plan was to drop an Oath and keep Oathing up Ingot Chewers. If they had a cage, it's fine to draw the Chewer. If they didn't have a cage, I'd pick off any super dangerous creatures (Wurmcoil, Trike, etc), but otherwise I'd hit something that isn't a creature and leave the body around to trade with Lodestone and friends (picking it off with the trigger puts you ahead on creatures and stops you Oathing). Griselbrand can be a storm wincon if you can get rid of spheres, but generally he's there for the big lifelink body (since you basically have to let the 1/1 Spirits hit you), occasional mass-drawing (answers stack up in your hand if your Chewers are keeping you ahead) and occasional face-beating. All the damage your Chewers (and the freedom that comes with destroying spheres with them) cause means you end up with a bunch of ways to protect Lab Maniac when you oath up the rest of your library.

The only thing Cage really does against it is stop you playing Griselbrand. Even sitting there tutoring up 3 Chewers, 1 Lab Maniac and a useless Griselbrand is very strong against shops.
29  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Oath targets on: October 22, 2014, 07:10:42 am
I've run Griselbrand, Lab Maniac and 3 Ingot Chewers at the same time in a tournament. Worked like a charm.
30  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: So Many Insane Plays Podcast #39: Khans of Tarkir Vintage Set Review on: October 21, 2014, 01:24:32 am
It feels like DT in decks that can reasonably expect to hit a wincon or two every 7 cards, such as Grixis. It doesn't feel like DT in decks that need to search for specific singletons at specific times, like Storm.

The analogy is too situational to say that they're actually similar cards. You could say that an EOT Dig is like a Yawg's will turn, since you have a load of options to work with, but limited mana and you lose access to a bunch of the cards that you can't immediately use. You could say It's like an instant speed Acall+Snap+Acall to find an answer, since you can't use lands/sorceries/etc to save you, etc.
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