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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: 93/94 MTGO Tournament/League on: January 30, 2016, 06:17:56 pm
Yeah, most of the old school art is available

Even if they're not, you can always do an art swap!

The art swap only works for cards where the original art is already available in some for online.  It doesn't work for Mana Short, Hurkyl's Recall, and I think a few other cards.

Is the full oldschool catalog even available online? Chaos Orb aside I feel like there would be a bunch of stuff missing, maybe not all of it important, but still. Also worth considering, of the cards that are, which of them are printed with the proper art?
It's not.  Chaos Orb is the most obvious example, but there's a few other oddball cards like King Suleiman that are also unavailable and see play in the format.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Your favorite standard? on: April 29, 2015, 05:10:24 am
I have to go with Odyssey/Onslaught/7E as well.  Not only were there a staggering number of viable decks, the metagame was strategically diverse as well.  You could play Aggro (R/G Beats, Burning Bridges), Tempo (U/G Madness and Threshold), Board Control (Mono Black, Astral Slide), blue Control (Tog, Wake) grindy Midrange (Cemetary, Elves), or Prison (Squirrel Opposition).  There was also Goblin Bidding, which I still consider to be one of the greatest Standard decks of all time because it is one of the very few capable of playing 3 distinct roles.  It could kill with the quickness of Warchief and Piledriver or grind you out with Gempalm Incinerator, Matron, Sparksmith, Siege-Gang, and Sharpshooter.  On top of that, there was the ever present threat of a huge Patriarch's Bidding turn, which is eerily similar to storming out with Yawgmoth's Will.  As I recall though, the Mind's Desire/Future Sight decks were more of an Extended thing since that format had access to Nightscape Familiar and the "free" cards like Snap and Cloud of Faeries.  I remember people trying to get it to work in Standard, but ultimately not being able to.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Announcing Wasteland errr..... I mean Tempest Remastered for Magic Online on: February 24, 2015, 02:25:19 am
Will this spike Mishra's Workshop?

It could, along with the other Workshop favorites like Tangle Wire, Lodestone Golem, etc.  Tangle Wire would be my speculation target, were I to dip my feet in those waters.

If I were to pick a spec target from this I would probably go with Stifle.  The number of people that get into Legacy over cheaper Wastelands is probably higher than those who will pick up Shops.  Both versions of the card were "printed" in relatively small quantities and its RUG Delver is one of the most popular decks in the format.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage on: October 10, 2014, 04:39:02 am
Tribet, for some reason your suggestion about an expiry date reminded me of the opening scenes from every Inspector Gadget cartoon...

"This proxy will self-destruct in 5 seconds..."
*Toss my deck into the garbage can where the chief is hiding.*
*cue angry chief sporting Doc Brown hair and covered in soot*

Really though, I see two problems with it.  First, it means that WotC would have to officially condone proxies, which is something they will never do.  Also, printing, cutting, and organizing specific cards would be a logistical nightmare.  Even set redemption costs $25 USD and takes weeks.  Keep in mind that this is for current sets that they keep in a warehouse.

I think the best thing they can do in this regard is to release commemorative Vintage Championship Event Decks, much like they used to do with PT decks 10ish years ago.  The cards themselves would need to have square or clipped corners and a gold border on the back, making them illegal for sanctioned play.  They could even use the M15 card frame and VMA art where applicable in order to prevent them from being turned into counterfeits.  Not only does this give proxy players a more attractive option than defaced basic lands, but it also actively promotes the format.  They're basically saying "Look at these awesome Vintage decks you guys can play with."  They can be used by players wanting these cards for EDH or a powered cube as a better alternative to IE/CE.  It does all of this while sidestepping the proxy issue, since their stated purpose is to be a collectable, and it solves the logistical issue by using a standardized print run.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Masters on: September 26, 2014, 01:06:53 pm
Is VMA expected to come up again?
It will at some point.  I'm not sure the exact details, but they run Flashback Drafts where you can draft a specific out of print set for a week or 2.  The exact set rotates and at some point VMA will work its way into the rotation.

I'm a very good drafter - I rarely loose at the local shop, which even has a few PT players at it. I get that I'd be at a staggering disadvantage for VMA drafts, but I have watches at least 30 online and feel i could do well.
A word of caution on this: the average MODO grinder is a higher caliber player than the average opponent at a local shop.  Back when the program used to keep track of ratings, it was generally accepted that ((MODO rating - 1600) * 2) + 1600 = approximate paper rating.  That is, a 1700 player online is roughly equal in skill to an 1800 paper, or 1800 online is about 2k in paper.  Big name pros use this as well.  In the past few months, I have for sure played against Sam Black and Randy Buehler, and I haven't even gotten to play a whole lot thanks to work.

I just don't get how MTGO works in terms of economics. I need good advice on how to get in with a budget that's VERY low.
You're on the right track with drafting.  It is the cheapest way to go infinite if you're good enough.  Drafting VMA, however, is a money losing proposition even if you do well.  The format has been a victim of its own popularity.  The expected value of cards opened is very low compared to the cost of a pack.  If you're concerned with using winnings to build a collection, you're probably better off drafting M15 or KTK in a few weeks.
6  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Oath - thanks to mtgo I'm getting into Vintage, but I need some help on: August 26, 2014, 08:49:30 am
If Oath could run 4 brainstorms, it would.

People who played Classic online when this was a possibility a keenly aware, Brainstorm in this deck is a freaking all-star.  IN addition to all reasons given above, a Brainstorm in response to a Duress/Thoughtseize on turn 1 (when you don't have the 2 mana in hand to play your oath) is a major saving grace.  Oath could keep a LOT more hands in Classic than it could in Vintage because of this. 

I did play Classic Oath for a bit.  I know what a workhorse it was in that deck.  It also played significantly more fetchlands since it couldn't run Power and Academy, making Brainstorm better.  Even the Lotus Petal versions typically played 6 or 7 IIRC.  I'm not debating its power in a deck that can fully utilize it.  I'm saying that it has been my experience that the current Oath shell does not.

I'm also well aware of the interaction between Duress and Brainstorm; it's just that I'm not terribly concerned about about it.  The printing of Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep, Spell Pierce, and to a lesser extent Spell Snare and Swan Song have pushed it almost completely out of all but Storm decks.  Interestingly enough, those cards have also nearly pushed Storm out of the metagame as well.  The Turn 1 Duress happens so infrequently that it isn't something I'm going to plan around when building a deck.

That is true, they do require a shuffle effect. But they are far more powerful. Particularly brainstorm in a deck like this.
Perhaps you should figure out a way to add more shuffle effects rather than cut these powerful cantrips. Cutting 1 underground sea for an additional fetch land would be a fine start i think.

I would also add that many vintage decks don't really have that many more ways to shuffle. Perhaps 1-3 more than you. And they don't have a problem playing with both of these great cards Smile

It may be that adding more shuffle effects is the correct answer.  It's something I considered but put on the back burner initially.  Cutting the 3rd Sea is the easy and obvious change, but on its own probably isn't enough.  After that, anything you change out has a negative impact on the deck.  The Orchards, Misties, remaining 4 duals, basic Island, Lotus and on-color Moxen are all untouchable IMO, leaving only LoA, Academy, Crypt, Pearl and Ruby as possible cuts.  Of those I could see maybe Library and/or Crypt since the deck cannot easily get back to 7 cards in hand barring Griselbargain and runs few cards with {2} in the casting cost, with Tinker notably absent.

If you want to compare Oath to typical Drain decks, I would say that they run, on average, 11 shuffle effects: 7 fetches plus DT, Vamp, Tinker, and 1 of either Imperial Seal, Merchant Scroll or Mystical.  They also run some form of incremental card advantage engine, be it Bob, Gush, or Night's Whipser, which Oath cannot.  So even if I did bump up to 7 fetches, which is not possible without making significant concessions in another area, Brainstorm and Ponder would still be worse in Oath than any other deck in the format due to seeing fewer cards pre-Grislebrand.
7  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Oath - thanks to mtgo I'm getting into Vintage, but I need some help on: August 25, 2014, 01:56:59 pm
Ponder and Brainstorm rely on shuffling to get their full value; if you can't get rid of the dead cards you see then Scrying is a better effect.  With my deck containing only 7 such effects, slightly over half the number run by other Drain decks, I found myself either just pitching those cards to FoW or being unable to shuffle and drawing through the crap I put back too often.  Preordain is not the most powerful cantrip, certainly, but it does get around that issue.  It could well be wrong and that Brainstorm and Ponder may be better, but those are cards I was unhappy with and so I'm exploring other options for the time being.
8  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Oath - thanks to mtgo I'm getting into Vintage, but I need some help on: August 25, 2014, 01:23:12 pm
At the end of last month I was jamming Oath pretty hard online, but due to work getting crazy and other personal commitments I haven't had enough time to really test or play at all in August.  As a result, I can't really speak to metagame specific calls, but I can offer some general impressions of what I was playing.

I feel that 1 Show and Tell is a necessary evil, but I don't like running the 2nd copy with only 2 Griselbrands.  Without him in hand it is at best a 3 mana Duress.

Gaea's Blessing is not needed.  I don't run it, and while there's been times where I've nearly decked myself with an Oath activation and been unable to draw 7, it has never cost me a game.  It would be nice to have, but with 9 slots dedicated to win conditions space is really tight already and there just isn't room.

I prefer Imperial Seal over Mystical for the ability to find Oath, Orchard, or the missing half of Vault/Key.  The only time the sorcery speed has really come back to bite me in the ass was when my opponent was able to get an active Jace and I didn't have a way to draw the top card immediately.  Overall though, the times Seal has been better outnumber the times I wished I had Mystical.

I'm not a fan of Brainstorm, Ponder, or Top in this deck, and I'm not very high on Jace either though I wouldn't cut him entirely.  With only 4 Misties and 3 tutors to shuffle, the chances of getting "Brainstorm locked" are just too high IMO.  Jace plus Orchard is a real non-bo in this deck as well without any way to protect him.  My most recent iteration cut Brainstorm, Ponder, Top and 1 Jace (down to 2) for 4 Preordains.  I like it in theory and initial testing was positive, but I didn't get a chance to decently run it through the gauntlet before real life shut down my Magic time.  I'm not saying I think it's the right call, just something to consider.

Duress can serve much of the same function as Misdirection if you are unable or unwilling to spent the $180 or so for 2 of them.  Thoughtseize, Divert and Mindbreak Trap can also deal with Decays if you want to experiment a bit.  Again, something to consider.

Also, one last suggestion that might help you get better feedback.  When you post a decklist, try to separate the cards by functionality.  As a reader, it's much easier mentally break down a deck when it's presented that way.  For reference and to show an example of the formatting I'm talking about, here's my latest Oath deck.

Preordain Oath
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Preordain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

4 Oath of Druids
2 Griselbrand
1 Show and Tell

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
8 SoLoMox Crypt

Sideboard (Likely needs more shop hate - this was played when Tangle Wire was bugged)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Swan Song
1 Forest
2 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
9  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Should I buy in MTGO? on: August 02, 2014, 11:21:29 pm
Make sure mtgo works before you buy your deck. You don't want to be this guy.

Agreed, especially since you're going to be running it on a Mac and not a true Windows OS.  Each new account comes with a few new player tickets or something to that effect which will let you enter special Phantom events, which are free to play Sealed Deck tournaments where you do not get to keep the cards.  Burn through those to see how your machine handles the client before making any purchases.
10  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Should I buy in MTGO? on: August 02, 2014, 03:05:31 am
If you want to get your finger on the pulse of MTGO a bit before committing any money, Pete Jahn writes a weekly column entitled "State of the Program".  He covers MODO related news, upcoming events and set releases, confirmed and reported bugs, decks that have done well in the past week, an opinion section about one or more hot issues, and card prices and changes.  This week's edition can be found here.  It's worth a read if you want a synopsis of what's going on with the game in general in addition to the more specific responses you're getting here.

On the subject of card prices, while things online are generally cheaper than their paper counterparts, there are a few exceptions.  These are mostly cards from older sets with poor Limited play.  The big one is Wasteland.  Coming in at just north of $150 a piece, it is the 2nd most expensive card online right now behind only Black Lotus.  Other notables include Misdirection ($80), Liliana of the Veil ($95), Grislebrand ($50), Hurkyl's Recall ($60), Tezzeret the Seeker ($25), Tangle Wire ($40), and Daze ($15).

Also, while $1500 is a pretty good ballpark, what deck or decks did you have your eye on?  I ask because the total cost can go up or down by a few hundred dollars depending on exactly what it is you want to get.
11  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: MTGO V4 on: July 26, 2014, 06:06:25 pm
Was playing vs shops last night ( for the first time in a LONG time ) and his tangle wire only forced me to tap for 2x on the turn it was played instead of 4x :/

I noticed that as well this morning.  Wire @ 3 or 4 counters taps 2 perms and @ 1 or 2 counters taps 1 perm.
Also, I can neither confirm nor deny the validity of this, but I also had an opponent claim that his library shuffled after clicking the "No" button on Ponder.
12  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [SCG Premium] UW Stoneforge in Vintage by Drew Levine on: July 04, 2014, 07:10:59 pm
While I won't deny that this was probably the worst Premium article I've ever read I don't think some of the extremely harsh criticism he received is entirely warranted based solely on this one piece.  Watching the videos several things were readily apparent.  First, he did not do any homework regarding his deck choice or the expected metagame.  Shops and Oath are currently the top dogs online and Blue Angels faces an uphill but not unwinnable battle against both of those decks.  As others have said, he played a metagame deck in the wrong metagame and did not know he was doing so.  I think he is so used to getting away with minimal preparation in Legacy because he knows the format so well and was expecting it to translate into Vintage.  Also, he did not playtest the deck at all prior to recording.  This led to some glaring mistakes against Shops on his part like leaving Mindbreak Trap in, Disenchanting a Lodestone Golem when there was a Kuldotha Forgemaster on the table representing Sundering Titan next turn, and keeping a 1 lander.  I also remember him not respecting the Abrupt Decay on his Grafdigger's Cage vs. Oath.  Finally, it's clear that he was on tilt in the later videos and, I assume, that's when he wrote his summary.  Now, I don't know the guy personally, but I've read most of his articles and this behavior is atypical even when he loses (see: Astral Slide in Legacy).  Maybe the guy was having a bad day and his games just exacerbated it.  Based on past articles I'm willing to overlook this isolated incident so long as it remains isolated.  Instead, I hope it serves as a wake up call to him and drives better articles in the future.
13  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Dack Slaver on: June 30, 2014, 03:08:04 am
I've been messing around with a similar deck on MODO and using Steel Hellkite as my other robot.  He can be reasonably hardcast off the back of Drain/Lotus/Vault.  Connecting with him even once will often times cripple any permanent-based strategy, or at the very least clean up opposing Moxen for free.  I'm not 100% sold on him though, as he's a pretty slow clock for a Tinker target.  The other card I've considered is Inkwell Leviathan since it's near impossible to remove once it hits the table, but Hellkite has been overall better for me.
14  Vintage Community Discussion / Community Introductions / Re: Introduce Yourself on: June 27, 2014, 01:44:18 pm
Hi everyone!

My name is Mike.  I'm 30 years old, live in Downingtown, PA (roughly halfway between Philly and Lancaster), and work 2nd shift as a sheet metal tech building helicopters for Sikorsky.

I got started playing Magic in the 5th grade around the release of Revised and have been playing on and off since then.  By the time I was in high school I had built up a pretty nice collection for a kid including 7/9 Power, Drains, and about 30 or so duals along with some other nice-to-haves.  Long story short, I lost everything in a car crash and gave up on the game for a few years.  I found MODO when I was in college, started playing, and through trading and some tournament winnings was able to build up a nice collection once again.  I was forced to sell most of it after college due to bills and lack of employment.  I started playing again this winter when my girlfriend got me to try Hearthstone.  My opinion of it was "Magic for Dummies", but it did re-spark my interest in Magic.  Once I read that Vintage was coming online, I was sold.  I traded off some of my remaining cards for eternal staples and dabbled in Legacy to bide my time until the VMA release.  In the past few weeks I spent most of my tax return that I was saving on a full set of Power and the cards to build several Drain decks.  I currently have ECW, Dace Magic Dance, Tezz/Oath and Dack/Welder Control built.
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