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1  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED on: February 19, 2016, 10:05:44 am
Oh ye of little imagination.  You can absolutely print new moxen.  Pour example:

Crappy Mox Jet
When Crappy Mox Jet enters the battlefield, reveal your hand and library to target opponent.  That opponent may choose any card named Mox Jet from your hand, deck, or graveyard, and exile it.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

Is this a good design?  Heck no!  But it's certainly proof that it's certainly possible to print cards that are mutually exclusive with the original moxen but also fill the same role.

you could still play that in a deck with jet. when you draw it, play it, and it's like you're playing 1 jet. when you draw jet first, play it, and now you're playing a deck with 2 jets.
2  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Player-Run Vintage League: January Top 8 on: January 29, 2016, 05:32:49 pm
Islandswamp won our match 2-0.
3  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: January 23, 2016, 07:17:12 pm
So here's another question:

Since Chalice has been restricted, could Kobolds/Clamp now be viable in a Dredge list?  Narcomoeba is basically just a free creature; Bloodghast and Ichorid are free creatures, and Basking Rootwalla is a free creature.  What if we were to remove the conditional part of "free" and played creatures that actually just cost 0?


they cost a card as opposed to somewhere between a quarter and a sixth of a card.
also, if we were doing this, dryad arbor is better, as it triggers bloodghast. people have messed around with 4x arbor 4x salvage with ghast in 'manaless' dredge in legacy before.
4  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: January 18, 2016, 11:46:49 pm
Isn't Serenity too expensive of a card to use against Workshops?  2 is a lot of mana for a dredge deck; and if they get out a Sphere and some Wastelands, it will never be cast.

serenity is just disgusting against shops. if shops has the trifecta of hate+pressure+mana denial at the same time you're probably dead regardless of what you play, but when they don't have pressure and they're just playing out cages, crypts and spheres a serenity eventually gets cast and takes everything. the first wasteland is also rarely hitting a mana source. when they don't have hate they're just dead, and when they don't have mana denial then 2 mana isn't that much.
5  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Player-Run Vintage League: January 1 (Week 2 Pairings) on: January 18, 2016, 07:50:55 pm
Qernavak, could you message me?
6  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Player-Run Vintage League: January 1 (Week 1 Pairings) on: January 09, 2016, 10:36:27 pm
I had 3 game losses, one each match.
7  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Player-Run Vintage League: January 1 (Week 1 Pairings) on: January 08, 2016, 06:07:13 pm
I'm vizzerdrix, sorry, a new term started and I had a bunch of stuff going on. message me here or on facebook to schedule.

The ol' use a different modo account so I run less dredge hate. Well played sir!

nah. I made multiple accounts because at some point(m15?) each account came with a free prerelease, and then i used vizzerdrix for storing credit with bots. with the play points change having play split between accounts became bad.
8  Eternal Formats / Online Tournaments / Re: MTGO Player-Run Vintage League: January 1 (Week 1 Pairings) on: January 07, 2016, 09:57:15 am
I'm vizzerdrix, sorry, a new term started and I had a bunch of stuff going on. message me here or on facebook to schedule.
9  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: December 31, 2015, 01:24:30 pm
Also against, Pyro, mentor, and shops running hangarback, leyline doesn't protect bridges from tokens dying which is more relevant with aggro shops coming back.

it does protect against hangarback because the hangarback never gets a trigger that makes tokens. the occasional batterskull is all shops has to break bridges through a leyline, aside from less typical stuff like battlesphere or precursor golem.
10  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge 101 - A Video Primer on: December 30, 2015, 09:04:42 pm
gottshall, I think the point of the example is to think of the tinker as if it's a card that actually matters, whether by finding something like jar or by the dredge player not having blockers for colossus, as obviously if it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. in the described scenario of having 2 therapies versus their 3 cards and the first therapy resolving, the argument for naming misstep is pretty real, as it effectively guarantees that you get to take their best card.  you're balancing blind name plus guaranteed name if they don't have a misstep versus a guaranteed name if they do have it.
11  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Cabal Pit vs Barbarian Ring - and other sideboard discussion on: October 13, 2015, 03:00:06 pm
I'm not sold on grudge, as it seems worse than fatestitcher. If we had the mana to hold grudge open and devoted a slot to it, we could also just unearth fatestitcher uncounterably into a kill or further disruption. If we pass with grudge in the yard and green open, assuming a competent opponent, they will either do non vault stuff on their turn and we wasted the mana and slot, they will vault key with a counter for our grudge, or they will do nothing/play right into the grudge. You have to make decisions around holding up a grudge of unknown value. If I was to cut a card for grudge/fatestitcher, it would probably be an ichorid.

The plan against Belcher and storm is to let them get eaten alive by shops. Failing that, racing and proper therapies, and leyline against tps, especially if people are now on dark petition/cabal ritual.

Dodging misstep is huge. Serenity is worse than claim against vault and oath as cards but better against everything else.
12  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Cabal Pit vs Barbarian Ring - and other sideboard discussion on: October 12, 2015, 02:02:40 pm
basically what mark said. the second salvage makes bloodghast more consistent.

karakas is an experiment. the manabase is an interesting thing in a deck like this. when boards were just a mix of claim/chain/chewer/wispmare/etc a solely 5 color manabase is necessary, but I'm not sure how true that is anymore. my list has 7/6/9/10/6 WUBRG sources plus portal. the 8 rainbow land lists prering played 8/8/9/8/8. portal is insane against shops and ok against other decks. cutting a confluence for karakas still leaves plenty of red sources and the same number of white sources while adding utility against jace/griselbrand/dromoka/opposing elesh/thalia/teeg/marit lage/even karn. the cost is at our ability to cast narcomoeba or black spells, and the ability to cast black spells is slightly offset by the second salvage. it gives you an out to elesh in the mirror that you can petrified field for. karakasing our own things seems bad but having the option seems better than not, and i can see bouncing kolaghan in response to removal to discard it the next turn to fuel ichorid. swords on the big things the turn they come out doesn't seem too big of a problem given how people often have to swords the ichorid in draw step anyway. the second salvage in combination with portal also gives you the ability to potentially dredge up a white source through multiple cages. I'm fine cutting a thug, as if my ichorid get too hungry i will aggressively feed them to each other.

13  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound on: October 10, 2015, 11:30:06 pm
It's remarkable how some of the most powerful cards in Magic's history are largely unheralded - or at least, largely underestimated - when released.  Necropotence may be the most famous, but Gifts, Gush, Jace, TMS, and certainly, Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are also examples. 

Throw Tarmogoyf and Bridge from Below into that category as well.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Bridge from Below is actually a yugioh card.
14  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Dredge: The Once and Forever Boogeyman on: October 09, 2015, 11:03:10 am
on Kolaghan:

She pitches to ichorid, which is something FKZ has never done.

she does the most damage relative to FKZ when you have 0-1 bridges. she gives you the option to do a baby DR for just her and deal 6-8, which FKZ doesn't, giving you the kill next turn off all the new creatures having haste.

Her ability does go away with removal, but that isn't the biggest issue. any removal cast after the turn we get her is equivalent to FKZ's trigger ending at end of turn. Most spot removal is either swords, which hits an ichorid or narc on draw step, or bolt, which kills their own dude in response to DR. between that and therapies, the only stuff that is likely to happen to kolaghan is karakas, which you can just not play into, or an active forgemaster for duplicant, which is already bad in the FKZ scenario due to breaking bridges to find a hellkite or wurmcoil or whatever.
15  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Analyzing the B&R Changes + Top 8 Decks from TDG 9/19 on: October 02, 2015, 02:26:33 pm
Against Oath, if you play it on your turn following a resolved Oath by your opponent, they get a chance to activate an Oath trigger.

this goes both ways. if you play it out, there is no amount of countermagic they can draw into and play on their turn to make playing an oath the right play, it's show and tell or oath/time walk or just lose.
16  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Analyzing the B&R Changes + Top 8 Decks from TDG 9/19 on: October 02, 2015, 01:03:05 pm
when you say one of the 3 dredge players has the sideboard you recommend, I assume you mean serenity, rather than boarding the 4th field, right?

Yes, correct. I lost a match with Dredge at Champs bc of having Claims, and won my top 8 match against Dredge bc my opponent had Claims.

yeah. I played dredge at champs, and while I finished well, I lost at least 1 game in the swiss due to having claim and had basically no outs to an opponent with cage/crypt/needle in play in top 4 due to being on claim and not serenity.
17  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Analyzing the B&R Changes + Top 8 Decks from TDG 9/19 on: October 02, 2015, 10:50:18 am
Am I right in thinking that Dragonlord Kolaghan is a situational upgrade to Flame-Kin Zealot, roughly in line with Urabrask the Hidden?

Kolaghan seems like interesting anti-Moat tech, and can also be a hasty beater in situations where FKZ wouldn't have enough zombie buddies to win the game. Flying is also nice against Shops in the "reanimated beater" role.

On the other hand, FKZ will sometimes have a slightly easier goldfish because he needs 6 tokens to deal 20 at once (and basically all your creatures will be the same size, so you don't get chump-blocked by a single Thopter token), and DK needs 7.

I don't think we're that interested in shutting off multiple Gravecrawler or Skaab Ruinator, and shutting off multiple of the same planeswalker sounds like a useful but rare corner-case.

Am I missing anything?

the card is slightly worse for goldfishing damage off a DR, but has multiple upsides. so far the last ability has not come up in practice. it flies over moat/magus, pitches to ichorid, which is huge, and is much less reliant on bridges than FKZ would be. if you have 3 dudes, a DR, and 0 bridges, kolaghan is better, and kills them the next turn due to hasting things that enter after it. this option isn't present with FKZ. off 1 bridge, with only 3 dudes, either is 12 that turn and lethal the next. off 3 dudes 2 bridges, they goldfish 18 and 21. add any more dudes or bridges and it doesn't matter. a situation that comes up fairly often when goldfishing with kolaghan is the ability to baby DR on turn 2 with 0/1 bridges, then on turn 3 your fresh creatures can each pop into multiple hasty 2/2s, or just be hasty bloodghasts while your opponent is still at 14.

kolaghan is better than all the other creatures that give your team haste for a combination reasons. she is the only one, aside from madrush cyclops, that pitches to ichorid. she has the second most power, aside from maelstrom wanderer. and she's the only one with flying, which makes her a relevant threat on her own. Any one of these on its own is not much, seeing as cyclops and wanderer have to my knowledge seen no play, but they add up. the last ability is also just marginally better than having no ability. if jace-bounce or snap-plow are no longer outs to her, that's not nothing. The downsides of her compared to FKZ are marginally worse goldfishing in a certain range of scenarios(and better in others) and being theoretically vulnerable to removal, although between therapy barrages and the fact that removal tends to target ichorid on our draw step the latter is not really that much of a problem.

I'm not entirely sure what you think the last ability does, as you mention gravecrawler etc. skaab ruinator is a bad example, as the one they are casting probably exiles the other as a cost. it really only would matter if the creature/walker is capable of killing kolaghan or you of if coupled with removal, and if coupled with removal kolaghan is gone before they cast the creature. turning off topdecked JTMS bounce or snap-plow are probably the best examples of where it could actually matter.
18  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Analyzing the B&R Changes + Top 8 Decks from TDG 9/19 on: October 02, 2015, 09:55:41 am
when you say one of the 3 dredge players has the sideboard you recommend, I assume you mean serenity, rather than boarding the 4th field, right?
19  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Cabal Pit vs Barbarian Ring on: October 01, 2015, 10:14:35 am
ring is favored when trying to cast chewer or race, or snipe a walker.

pit is favored when on the manplan, casting therapy, activate off salvage or fogging a blightsteel.

the former situations comes up more than the latter.

both are additional mana sources against shops, which is huge.

mark's guide to boarding against shops is accurate.

in the mirror we board out fields and some mix of ichorid/thug for cards that say enchantment on them. wispmare is best obviously but claim/serenity come after that. in the mirror claim would be better than serenity, unless they're running misstep for some reason, but serenity is better overall for a lot of reasons, but that's not the subject of this thread. postboard we're at 17 mana sources, one of which is a portal, so casting it against shops isn't too hard, as they need to be playing both hate and multiple spheres to keep you off it. the upside is just so much higher than claim, although less so now that the occasional shops player keeping in chalices is less of a thing.

I'd still prefer to be able to start the game with a leyline, sure, but being able to cast spells reliably trumps that. you don't need bridge to win. if they keep a hand that can only break a bridge and make a few 1/1s, you'll probably win.
20  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Complex Eldrazi cards hard to evaluate on: September 10, 2015, 11:51:04 am
I felt the same way at first . This is obviously normal since devoid is new. So far only vintage playable is void winnower, at first glance.. We will see.

I don't think Devoid is that relevant in Vintage. Besides Force of Will and Red Elemental Blast, are there that many cards where the color matters?

sudden demise. mother of runes out of hatebears. sword of fire and ice out of frobots or maybe a stoneblade deck. sphinx of the steel wind. ichorid.
21  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [BFZ] New Duals on: September 08, 2015, 03:46:05 pm

I think these duals in standard is the reason they printed Evolving Wilds so much recently.  They want every standard player to play 4 of it with these new duals.  

Evolving wild only finds basics.
22  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [BFZ] Bring to Light on: September 07, 2015, 01:20:01 pm
No with how it's worded you can cast it at any time.  There is no end to turn clause.

The card seems like it's on the same power level as dark petition, but for gush storm instead of ritual storm.

No, you cast it then or never.
23  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [BFZ] Titan's Presence on: September 04, 2015, 11:49:13 pm

Another possible kill card for MUD?  In Fro-Bots any of your Six CC fatties, Lodestone, or Kuldotha should be more than enough to EXILE anything your opponent has in play.

This card does not work well with trike.
24  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] The Tech Must Flow - Spice from Vintage Champs 2015 on: September 02, 2015, 09:21:39 pm

I guess my question is: Did any of you ever had a situation where you weren't able to activate Ring where you wanted/needed to?

top 8 game 2 feature match. the only dredger I saw all game pitched to ichorid to kill a jace, so I never had threshold and a ring.
25  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] The Tech Must Flow - Spice from Vintage Champs 2015 on: September 02, 2015, 09:06:05 am
Another important quality of ring is that multiples synergize. Every dredge player has had hands with multiple removal spells and no colored mana source. A hand with 2 rings means 1 is live, and so is that chewer too. As soon as you draw a ring you have 11 other red sources in the deck to find, as opposed to 8 if we were playing any other card. Even for casting non-chewer hate, it still pays for spheres. Playing it over sudden shock also means that we can afford to trim fields against non-wasteland decks, as the deck doesn't need any colorless mana to cast hate.
26  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [free article] Dredge-u-cation on: August 06, 2015, 10:26:00 am
Whitelotus, while those spells are primarily for priest, the existence of mentor contributes to how popular priest is to some degree. The fact that shock/volley do something relevant even when they haven't drawn hate a lot of the time is real, in the same way that ingot chewer is more live against shops than RUx delver even though both may be relying on 4 cages. Trap is definitely real, although it loses some value when you can trip into it when we already have a stocked yard and can afford to play around it.

As for the article itself, I have to disagree on some bits. Grafdigger's cage is one of the worst dredge hate cards, as once dealt with we still have all of the stuff we discarded when digging for removal spells/colored sources/therapies to clear the way, while this is not true with rest in peace or leyline, and dredge can't profitably interact with crypt/spellbomb/relic, only put up enough pressure to force them to pop and then reload. As decks become less able to apply pressure to dredge, ie landstill, cage becomes better for them than crypt effecta because they can't do as much with the ~2 turns a well-used crypt buys them. Priest is a worse cage (doesn't prevent flashback) that attacks for 2. Obviously, people primarily play cage/priest because of the overlap in other matchups like oath or forgemaster. Rest in peace is awkward to play when it shuts off your own snapcaster, delve spells, salvagers, or yawgmoth's will, so people are less inclined to play it. Someone who jams in six copies of priest/cage as their dredge hate may be better against the field in general due to oath overlap, but 2 cage/2priest/2/RiP is probably going to perform better against dredge.
27  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Top4 in Bloomsburg on: July 14, 2015, 10:53:12 am
His list was posted in the TO report in this same forum.
28  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Fatestitcher Dredge on: July 12, 2015, 08:12:42 pm

Yes, firestorm would definitely be up there. It is weakened by mulligans and being down cards from being in bazaar-until-out mode, but does a lot. If counters didn't exist pyroclasm itself would be fine for a lot of things, and swords for single targets.

Against shops I board out therapies. They have too many functionally similar cards for therapy to be too effective, and under the effective rule of law that is multiple spheres flashing back dread return on chewer is higher impact, or casting hate from hand. I board -4 therapy, -2 DR targets, and then either 2 thugs or leylines depending on the version of shops. Winning because they kept a marginal hand based on wasteland is very real. A single dredger in the yard can be too slow, and there is a nonzero chance that you run into BUG fish or something and feel a little silly. Trying to find your own solutions to things is definitely good, as innovation is the whole point of talking about new/underplayed cards, or just changing any list.

I do have some questions about different builds of Dredge. What versions are good against what fields. I understand the Mana Ichorid, but what about Fatestitcher Dredge? What decks is it good against? Are there still more versions of Dredge that Vintage Playable?

The fatestitcher package offers speed, as a large amount of your hands will function as 2-bazaar hands. There are various transformational sideboard plans that people have, from a laboratory maniac plan to a dark depths plan.
29  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Fatestitcher Dredge on: July 11, 2015, 11:49:43 pm

leylines have other functions than those you listed. they protect bridges from everything except tokens dying(pyro,mentor,batterskull), turn off crucible, and stops salvagers+spellbomb/crypt from locking us.
Sudden shock is for any deck you suspect of boarding priest or jailer. boarding it in to value kill pyros or whatever isn't worth it.
I never board powders out, doing everything we can to be able to find a bazaar(short of playing crop rotation) is important. Even if keepable non-bazaar 7s exist, which I distrust due to them seeming soft to stuff like relic, powder being there lets you powder away the sevens that aren't those.
leyline comes out a decent amount of the time. It is rarely completely dead, but not always worth keeping in. obviously keep them for the mirror, bomberman, storm, frobots. I find keeping some number in against shops to protect bridges and turn off crucible also pretty real.
I'm not sure how I feel about chain anymore. the card doesn't effectively answer priest, for one thing, and only having 3 answers to the 10th most sideboard card in vintage doesn't seem like enough. what threats have you been facing you couldn't deal with?
I keep in dread returns against shops, but definitely board out elesh. There's just a nonzero risk of metamorph + removal blowouts happening for dread returning that to be a better idea than just getting chewer every time and saving the slot. fkz itself is also a waste of a slot postboard there.


I wouldn't bring in shocks just for pyro, but seeing as any mentor deck probably has priests in the board you will incidentally shock a mentor sometimes when you know they don't have the priest/you have a backup shock in hand.
You side out the entire dread return package against shops? I agree with siding out dedicated targets like FKZ or elesh due to them either not being guaranteed to do enough, potential metamorph blowouts, and being dead cards, but keeping in dread returns to bring back chewers has always felt very good for me.


In practice, they mostly kill priests, but they do kill other things. if they were only for priests, we would probably just play rending volley instead, as it's pretty much better unless they have misdirection and another target. Having the flexibility of also not being dead to jailer, killing the occasional mishra's factory or deathrite shaman, and going to the face are all decent upsides.
30  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Fatestitcher Dredge on: July 09, 2015, 02:09:34 pm
Glad others like the list. When accounted for the fact that you see them in preboard games, wasteland/strip mine are more commonly played than any other hate except maybe cage. running 4x chewer but 0x field in the main seemed backwards to me.

yeah, storm is a problem due to the list not having the speed of a pair of fatestitchers or the marginal protection of mental misstep. You can consistently have them turn 3 dead or therapied out, but that's not fast enough all the time. Leyline of the void definitely helps, due to shutting down yawgwin lines and making cards no longer available for doomsday piles.

Leyline of sanctity definitely sounds interesting, although I have an aversion to counter-hate that only works preemptively, like it, unmask, and misstep, due to being bad at dealing with resolved hate when you're drawing 3 cards a turn to find your out. Slowrolling through crypt effects is how you beat them usually, although trap is almost always a beating. bog from the hand is worse than crypt due to not being able to hold it open, but if they crop rotted or knighted for it or something it's equivalent to trap.
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