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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 16, 2016, 05:19:27 pm
Depends on the list, if it's red the mentor match up is really bad but white has moat, supreme verdict, swords, as very good options to attack mentor.

Those options are hardly very good. Swords still leaves the tokens, provided it resolves against the deck's counters, and the tokens are generally large enough to bash through Factories. Supreme Verdict is a poor card in most matchups, inefficient in that it costs more than the cards it's answering, and honestly hard to cast at times given the triple colored cost in a deck with 9-10 colorless lands. The Gush-cantrip draw engine is also adept at churning through it's deck, so the Mentor player is likely to have additional copies after the Verdict. And I have never seen a Landstill deck run Moat and TCDecks turns up zero results for Standstill+Moat. In theory, I guess it could catch the Mentor pilot by surprise, but it also shuts down Landstill's primary win condition.

I've played this matchup a lot from the Mentor side and I feel it's one of Mentors better matchups.
I don't understand your logic in saying that the card is  inefficient against mentor because it "costs more than the cards it's answering." if you are using supreme verdict to deal with 1 mentor then it's using it inefficiently but when it's mentor and tokens given that each token adds to the cost of the mentor it is an uncounterable board wipe that happens to be pretty good. Also the gush engine is only good if the gush resolves, standstill decks play considerably more counter magic than mentor so yes if the gush draw engine is uninterrupted then mentor is advantaged but that can be said of any deck that goes uninteracted with. Standstill doesn't have to win with factories, Jace is also a viable win con in the deck. Moat is a beater in most match ups right now. Shops, dredge, mentor, Tinker blightsteel, all cannot beat a moat.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 16, 2016, 12:31:55 pm
So congratulations to LSV for winning the league. Well done!
The dominant deck of the finals was clearly their UW Landstill build and it seems to be positioned pretty well in the meta. It has shown that it can beat Shops and Dredge and should have a reasonable matchup against all the rest.

Landstill has an abysmal matchup against the Gush decks, especially Mentor, and I would take the Dredge result (N=1) with a grain of salt - it's not traditionally a good match up for Landstill and LSVs draws were pretty mediocre. The lack of Gush in the VSL is one thing, but in a typical tournament, it tends to be 15-20% of the metagame. Just a caveat to those looking to jam this at their next event. And board your Standstills out in the mirror...

Depends on the list, if it's red the mentor match up is really bad but white has moat, supreme verdict, swords, as very good options to attack mentor.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 11, 2016, 10:53:47 am
Hrishi,

Hate bears does show a unique attribute of Vintage. There is no other format in magic that a hate type deck can be good.  A hate bears deck is stocked full of creatures that literally see no play outside of Vintage because of unique abilities that are only relevant vs. decks like Workshops, Storm, and Dredge

Death and taxes and maverick in my opinion are much more important to the legacy meta than hatebears is to the vintage meta. Both of those decks put up more results and are more popular than hatebears. I'm not saying hatebears is irrelevant or not viable but the statement that no other format has a "hatebears" type deck just isn't true. Even modern is starting to see hatebears decks pop up. The creatures may change but the goal of mana denial, creature utility, and taxing of spells is generally the same.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See? on: March 09, 2016, 11:25:39 pm
id like to see some more of the former world champs involved as well as the current one. i think it would shake things up.
5  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [SOI] Brain in a Bottle on: March 02, 2016, 01:11:16 am
You can play a Tinker for 1 mana at instant speed. This could be really good against Workshops. 
Don't you still need to pay any taxes on  it?
6  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED on: February 19, 2016, 10:24:21 am
Oh ye of little imagination.  You can absolutely print new moxen.  Pour example:

Crappy Mox Jet
0
When Crappy Mox Jet enters the battlefield, reveal your hand and library to target opponent.  That opponent may choose any card named Mox Jet from your hand, deck, or graveyard, and exile it.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

Is this a good design?  Heck no!  But it's certainly proof that it's certainly possible to print cards that are mutually exclusive with the original moxen but also fill the same role.

you could still play that in a deck with jet. when you draw it, play it, and it's like you're playing 1 jet. when you draw jet first, play it, and now you're playing a deck with 2 jets.

Yea it's not like storm would pass up the chance to just play a second mox jet if it was functionally so similar that the only thing it does is thin the deck if it comes down before mox jet.
7  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 15, 2016, 12:53:14 pm
Id like to ask you guys how you feel about using Unmask vs leyline of the void in the current meta. I like Unmask a lot against the blue decks and it can be useful game 3 vs shops but I'm just looking to see what other people think about it. Thoughts?

I would use them both together. After playing against the mirror in the last two events I've played, I'd say it's very much needed. Unmask is great.

As a full 8 or with a smaller split?
8  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 15, 2016, 11:53:48 am
Id like to ask you guys how you feel about using Unmask vs leyline of the void in the current meta. I like Unmask a lot against the blue decks and it can be useful game 3 vs shops but I'm just looking to see what other people think about it. Thoughts?
9  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: Free Article: Vintage 101: A Bazaar Story on: February 12, 2016, 10:10:22 am
Thought this was a very good article. It's refreshing to see someone write about the deck without taking one side or another about it.
10  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 10, 2016, 12:07:09 am
Well I'm certainly not disagreeing that the dredge plan is faster when you have Bazaar in your opener, and you don't need to answer a hate piece, but the latter is extremely unlikely... You can't aggressively mulligan to bazaar game 2/3 or you will cost yourself a lot of games.

i have the opposite experience as this. in my experience when i have mulligand down to 4 cards in hand the bazaar, even if my opponent goes turn 1 RIP, is better as it allows me to start syphoning through my deck. the games that ive kept a 6 or 7 with multiple pieces of anti hate i have been punished as when my opponent sees i have no bazaar they just go on their merry way of doing what they want to do instead of trying to interact with me. the bazaar provides a huge psychology advantage as your opponent essentially is trying to answer a land, which unless they are on landstill or shops is going to be very difficult. if they are trying to answer a golgari thug and 2 bloodghasts without a bazaar they have more options and also less to worry about. i very much advocate an aggressive mulligan even in the later games, that being said there are some matches where going down to 3 cards in hand is just unreasonable.
11  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Free Article] Vintage 101: Power Nine 2K16 on: February 09, 2016, 11:26:48 am
I'd rather have Unmask than misstep in a game it serves the purpose of getting the card you care about out of their hand proactively and also sets up Cabal therapy to be that much better. You almost never want any bricks really even if the deck can afford them. Against shops is really the only match up where you don't want Unmask. But in that game Cabal therapy and misstep aren't really that good to begin with.
12  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 09, 2016, 11:08:57 am
I think the danger of being too slow for tps or Belcher is balanced by the fact that we crush almost every other deck in the format. In some cases it's not even close. I know a few shops players that pack 10+ pieces of dedicated dredge hate in their board because they are convinced they cannot beat the deck and even some oath players who have put 8+ pieces in their board.
13  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 09, 2016, 12:56:47 am
I think the biggest oversight with Dredge right now is not playing Griselbrand in a package with Dragonlord Kolaghan.  

Before, Dredge could be slow, because it had enough disruption with Cabal Therapy, but if the format is faster, then why not just get faster yourself.  If you can dread return griselbrand, you almost always win on the spot.  

It can also be exiled to Ichorid.  

I think it's the only way the deck can get back into the fold, along with some sort of Dark Depths package in the board.  


A few things came to mind when I read this. One is that I've never heard of dredge described as slow, at least the current iteration of dredge. I think aside from the belcher decks dredge is still one of the fastest in the format. I know I used to play a fatestitcher because I thought it gave me some extra speed vs the delver decks when 4x cruise and dig were in the format. Also the dread return usually wins the game regardless of what is actually coming back in game 1 unless you are playing against exactly another combo deck and they rip something fierce off the top. I have found the target of the dread return actually can matter more in games 2-3 than in game one as it tends to be a hoser for the particular match up (Ingot chewers/ashen rider vs shops or elesh norn vs delver/mentor decks). That being said I don't know what Grislebrand offers you in most post board games over ashen rider or elesh norn, especially if you are using a transition board plan over the usual anti hate.
14  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: February 09, 2016, 12:35:42 am
Even though I think it's the best deck, I haven't been playing any Dredge in events lately.  My thought is that the more people playing Dredge and doing well with it, the more people will be prepared for it come Champs.  The deck's biggest strength is that a lot of people don't play against it regularly, so their plans aren't finely tuned.  I tried to talk Josh Potucek out of playing Dredge this past weekend for that reason; he didn't listen and he won.  People's sideboards just gained +1 Dredge hate.

Does anyone else feel the way I do about saving Dredge for the big events?



I can see where you are coming from and I agree to a certain extent about larger events. Sullivan won the NYSE last year so I think the cat is out of the bag permanently now but that's just my opinion. One thing I have seen a lot of is that people are actually lowering the amount of dredge hate in favor of having more variety of kinds of hate. Decks that routinely played 4x cage plus 3x priest have turned into 2 rest in peace 2 cage 2priest, 1 needle. I think that is an interesting trend that should be taken into account when boarding.
15  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: BMG Invitation Vintage Event 3-12-16 on: February 05, 2016, 12:39:02 pm
If anyone in the NYC area is queued I am looking to carpool with people. PM me if interested.

I want to go, and am qualified.  Let's put a car together, Travis.
Awesome. I'll be at the fnm tonight to see if anyone else is queued. Do you know of anyone else off the top of your head?
16  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: BMG Invitation Vintage Event 3-12-16 on: February 05, 2016, 11:51:20 am
If anyone in the NYC area is queued I am looking to carpool with people. PM me if interested.
17  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Comic Book Depot 1K - 1/31/16 results on: February 04, 2016, 01:10:13 pm
And nary a Forino or Detwiler were seen.  No Shops in the top eight (seven)?

Thank you for posting the results, Jostin.  I hope to see you at FNM tomorrow!


I believe sorrentino was on shops but yours and the forinos presence were missed.
18  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: Comic Book Depot - Friday Night Vintage - 2/5/16 Credit Tournament on: February 02, 2016, 09:44:36 am
Definitely going to go for this.
19  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Dread Return targets and numbera on: January 24, 2016, 02:14:22 pm
So as the title suggests this thread is about what we think are currently viable dread return targets. Currently I see the main ones as FKZ, Dragonlord Kolaghan, Elesh Norn, Grislebrand, Ashen Rider, Sun Titan. How many targets do you guys feel are appropriate (both for paper and online) and also the number of Dread returns that are viable in a given deck?
20  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Is Your Current Vintage Deck Proxy Free? on: January 13, 2016, 04:34:43 pm
No proxies but that's because I run dredge so the price of admission was not as much as say shops.
21  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: N.Y.S.E. Open IV - Power Eight, Workshops & Drains Tournament - 6/4/16 on: January 03, 2016, 07:23:51 pm
Very excited for this event nick. What is the list of the nyse 3 qualifier winners for or is that a typo?
22  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: December 31, 2015, 11:46:57 am
Your absolutely right in that coming down a turn later is a big deal but the average time to win the game once one of those creatures has resolved is shorter for mentor than pyromancer. Also white hate is considerably more powerful and I don't know that people will want to give that up.
23  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge in 2016 on: December 31, 2015, 11:23:23 am
I agree with your conclusions about 2016 with the only exception being about mentor. I actually think mentor I a faster deck even though the card itself comes down a turn later. Also because I am playing with serenity I've put 4 Unmask in the main instead of leyline. It's done a lot of work for me in a variety of matches. Also against, Pyro, mentor, and shops running hangarback, leyline doesn't protect bridges from tokens dying which is more relevant with aggro shops coming back.
24  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge 101 - A Video Primer on: December 31, 2015, 01:48:18 am
This may be a more theory based argument but in my opinion and experience the point of casting Cabal therapy is to explore 2 possible lines of play which have varying priority depending on the deck you are playing against. 1 is to prevent your opponent from interacting with you. 2 is to try and prevent your opponent from winning the game. Incidental results are bridge from below triggers and information gained even if they counter it. Against different decks and at different junctions during the game the priority one of those two lines becomes either more obvious or moves into a murkier line of play. When a Cabal therapy resolves you now have the opportunity to take either of those lines. Naming misstep to ensure a follow up Cabal therapy when there are 3 cards in hand may in fact ensure a follow up Cabal therapy. But when your opponent shows you FoW, blue card, tinker then misstep is the wrong choice and FoW was the correct choice. Both cards interact with you, both cards protect tinker, and both cards counter Cabal therapy. The value judgement has to be made on whether or not misstep or force is more important to the rest of the game and the lines you may take later on. Is it more or less likely that he has misstep or force+blue card in his hand? That's a statistics question that will either be true or false arbitrarily in any given game. Whether or not the opponent actually has the card you are naming, in my opinion, is less relevant than why you are naming that card.

I dislike hypothetical match scenarios for the most part as they don't usually have enough information available to make an informed decision or they end up being purposely designed to favor a particular card or line of play. We can create all kinds of scenarios that support our point of views but all that does is reinforce what we already believe to be true instead of testing those beliefs. If we test these ideas then we can begin to see if the lines of play we are taking are correct or open us to possible weaknesses.
25  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge 101 - A Video Primer on: December 30, 2015, 04:02:51 pm
Why am I casting Cabal therapy if I am not trying to win that turn? He can tinker next turn but then I can still just kill him. The amount of information that the dredge player has he is very limited and I don't feel like I can definitely say if I therapy here. Did I flip any ichorids? Do I have any lands in hand to bring bloodghasts back? Did a narcomoeba flip? Am I casting the therapy from hand first or am I casting two from yard? Do I have any bridges that are triggering? The situations in which casting Cabal therapy and naming specific cards is very nuanced to what the dredge board state is. I'm not saying that no dredge builds will name misstep. If you are playing main board chains or claims then I think it's a viable naming option. If I'm casting a therapy to ensure my follow up dread return resolves I name cards that stop the dread return but if I'm just casting therapy to deconstruct their hand I think I care more about what cards they have that do damage to me or enable them to get out of the hole they are in. I can say personally for my list, I don't need to care about misstep because it only hits therapy, but I also play unmask in my build.
26  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Dredge 101 - A Video Primer on: December 29, 2015, 05:05:59 pm
I think misstep is only a relevant card to name on misstep if misstep is live to other cards in your deck. If we apply the principle of naming cards that make you lose the game I think naming misstep is only right if you think that misstep will sink you.
27  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: The Geekery HQ (Astoria, NY)-Friday Night Vintage - 12/11/15 Unsanctioned Proxy on: December 11, 2015, 03:31:48 pm
gonna try and make it out from the island. if anyone else from the island wants to go PM me and we can talk about car pooling.
28  Vintage Community Discussion / Community Introductions / Re: Introduce Yourself on: December 09, 2015, 03:26:09 pm
Hi everyone. First time poster, been lurking for about 2 years.
When it started: started playing M:tg in torment when I saw the art for a foil Ichorid I pulled from a pack and thought "this is rad". Started playing again a few years ago after selling my collection in 2010 (I know I broke the first rule of magic). Started playing vintage in Jan 2014 and haven't been able to kick the habit since. I also play legacy but I find that vintage is more of a passion of mine. I'm situated on long Island NY and have been active in the vintage scene in the north east for about a year and a half. 
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