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1  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: - Duskmantle Guildmage, a.k.a Darth Mill on: January 05, 2013, 12:48:49 am
We got a new guildmage with some combo possibilities in Modern.  I wonder if he has any life in Vintage?

Duskmantle Guildmage UB
2/2
Creature - Human Wizard   
1UB: Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere this turn, that player loses 1 life.
2UB: Target player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Pair this due with Mindcrank, and you win as soon as your opponent loses life or a card hits their yard.  Now, we've had this effect before, in Bloodchief Ascension, but that took way too much set up to be viable.  This wins the game for 3UUBB, and is really only vulnerable to artifact hate if you play it correctly.

Mindcrank by itself is pretty shabby.  But this Guildmage isn't terrible.  He slots right into Wizards and provides it with some maindeck hate for Storm and Dredge, but it's probably too slow to really matter in those matchups.  He also messes with late game topdeck tutors. 

I get the sense his abilities cost just 1 mana too much to be really viable in Vintage, but I'd love to be wrong.  Thoughts?



Actually, This wins for only 1UB if you attack with it with no defense. Though it is of course less powerful than key-vault (4 colorless manas 2 cards combo) or painter-grindstone (4 colorless manas 2 cards combo), we have here a 7 colored manas 2 cards combo. Quite expensive, but not that bad in a relevant deck.
2  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Snapcaster Six on: May 13, 2012, 11:30:59 am
Heya Guys,

I was really impressed with Snapcaster Mage's performance at the Waterburry.  Since his ability triggers upon entering the battlefield, I thought he might be useful in a Minus Six deck.  Here's a list I've pieced together, what do you think:

Maindeck (60 cards):

1 Banefire
3 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Read the Runes
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard: (15 cards)
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
2 Echoing Truth
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Diabolic Edict

Basically, you blink WGD in and out until you can get both Snappy and Volcanic Island into play, then use Snappy to give Banefore Flashback and win with 20 damge to the head.  I've included Flusterstorm in the deck since giving it Flashback with Snappy will help protect your combo.  So what do you think?  Will SCM help a WDGx deck to get double duty out of its tutors and disruption, or am I just diluting the focus of the deck too much for it to be viable?

Peace,

-Troy

I think your build is diluting the density of the WGDX build. Snapcaster Mage can be useful to abuse of master spells that you find in most vintage lists : ancestral, Tinker, and so on.

But I would prefer use Noxious revival to replay spells from the graveyard, instead of Snapcaster Mage.

The changes I would make to the list :

-2 snapcaster mage
-1 dance of the dead
-1 duress
-1 mystical tutor
-1 land
+3 noxious revival
+1 Intuition
+1 Necromancy
+1 Ponder

For the side, a simple Minus Six one should be great. Or a side like that :
Tinker+robot+keyvault combo (with Noxious and Intuition, it's great !)
Nature's claim
Tarmogoyf
3  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Three Decks One Box (Copy Pasted) on: February 22, 2012, 08:46:36 am

Very interesting approach ! I will test it, then discuss on some choices...
4  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Worldgorger Dragon] A return to the past ? on: June 12, 2010, 03:55:04 am

A working list to launch again the discussion about the archetype. Place in the current metagame ? Alternative strategies ?

The list :

Quote
// FORMAT : Vintage
        1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tropical Island
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        3  Underground Sea
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        1  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Time Walk
        4  Deep Analysis
        4  Duress
SB:  1  Eternal Witness
SB:  1  Time Vault
SB:  1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB:  1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB:  1  Voltaic Key
SB:  1  Tinker
SB:  1  Repeal
SB:  2  Enlightened Tutor
SB:  3  Carpet of Flowers
SB:  3  Chain of Vapor


The list is a classic WGDX one, with a KeyVault and a Tinker alternate strategy. The main interest of this is the possibility to keep in the main deck both keyvaulkt and Dragon combo, or both Tinker solution and Dragon combo.
5  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: May 28, 2010, 08:10:31 am
I wasn't clear sorry.

I explain the presence of two Oona by the fact that against the control matchup, Carpet of Flowers allows us to hardcast quickly Oona. That's why there are two of them in the list. But we may find others big creatures to hardcast, in order to diversify kills, around a casting cost of 5-6 manas.
Ah, I understand now. Are you sure that Carpet of Flowers is a good idea? It feels very narrow. I think Dark/Cabal Ritual is better if you just want more mana. Bazaar helps Cabal Rit, and you get the mana right away. I guess I could see Carpet also being helpful against Stax, but Entomb + Animate is only 3 mana in the first place.

Carpet of Flowers is only to be used against control matchup. Not only it gives you mana, but it fears the opponent from landing islands, what Dark/Cabal only give you mana.

Against Stax, it is an evidence that you don't pack in Carpet of Flowers. it's only for decks based on islands (Tezz, Drain and Fish decks for instance).

Quote
the fact they need to care about 2 differents kills is interesting.

Especially WGD + KeyVault in the same deck. One kill doesn't need the graveyard, and needs only two cards and colorless mana. The other needs only one reanimation spell, the graveyard and a way to find the kill.

if we resume :


6  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: May 27, 2010, 05:04:32 am
Quote
I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?
It is against the control matchup, with Carpet of Flowers. But maybe it is an overkill yes.
Carpet of Flowers? How does that affect your combo in any way? If you're going off, they should never see another main phase.

I wasn't clear sorry.

I explain the presence of two Oona by the fact that against the control matchup, Carpet of Flowers allows us to hardcast quickly Oona. That's why there are two of them in the list. But we may find others big creatures to hardcast, in order to diversify kills, around a casting cost of 5-6 manas.
7  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: May 26, 2010, 10:10:43 am
Is Deep Analysis really better than Life from the Loam + Bazaar?  You typically don't want to hardcast Deep Analysis anyways (guessing that's why Fury only runs 3).  Plus, Loam is a good counter for Wasteland, which hopefully would balance out the draw back against Wastelands by being 3 color.

Deep allows to draw a lot, Life of the Loam only if there is enough lands in the graveyard, and only with bazaar. So replacing Deep by Life raises the dependance to bazaar, and reduces the amount of blue cards in the deck (which is dangerous for Force of Will). I'm not sure the replacement is efficient. But Life of the loam could be used to fight against mana denial.

Quote
More importantly it means you can run Tinker+Sphinx or Vault/Key in those spots. 

Yes, I think it is a real good idead. Here is a sample list :

Quote
        1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tropical Island
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        3  Underground Sea
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        2  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Time Walk
        3  Deep Analysis
        4  Duress
SB:  1  Time Vault
SB:  1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB:  1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB:  1  Voltaic Key
SB:  1  Tinker
SB:  1  Repeal
SB:  2  Enlightened Tutor
SB:  3  Chain of Vapor
SB:  4  Carpet of Flowers


Quote
I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?

It is against the control matchup, with Carpet of Flowers. But maybe it is an overkill yes.

Quote
Also, I think Time Walk isn't that great here.  At least, it's not better than running an alternate win main deck.

I found space to have both WGD combo and KeyVault combo, with Time walk (see list above). Time walk could not be necessary, but it helps !
8  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [WGDX] Card discussion on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:06 am
The most relevant hate to Dragon is graveyard hate, which hates this too. This does nothing against any spell-based hate like Ravenous Trap or Nature's Claim. If something like a Qasali Pridemage or Ground Seal is preventing you from comboing off, Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Rushing River are better ways to go

That's true, I forsake the idea...

Quote
I think that the best way to avoid hate is to have more than 1 avenue to winning. I was drawing up decklists, and I think hex-mage dragon is a great idea. you could run pirahna marsh instead of bazaar, or in conjunction with it.

Yes, I believe Dragon must be able to diversify his strategy by including one more graveyard independant threat. Former examples were found in the following strategies :

-> Dreadnought/Mask : used to be very efficient, but now obsolete, because of the errata of Mask and the dominance of the keyvault combo, which makes players pack in a lot of artifact destruction spells.
-> Tarmogoyf : still efficient I think, especially against control machups
-> Tombstaker : I still don't know what to think about this guy. Seems to be very quick, but it is costly in terms of cards in graveyard.
-> Vampire Hexmage / Dark Depths : I don't test it, but this seems very efficient too.
-> I like the idea of Piranha Marsh : it's costly in terms of tempo, but allows a win with only the WGD combo working.

Did anyone test these strategies in WGDX ?
9  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: [WGDX] Card discussion on: March 01, 2010, 11:56:27 am

Sorry for not being enough clear, but the trigger I want to point out is indeed the one you described. Any animate spell with Leviathan clear the board from annoying permanents the opponent could have, though the animate too returns to our hand, making the leviathan sacrificed.

Or course, this Leviathan doesn't combo with Show and Tell. But your idea could be deepened, by using Kederekt Leviathan to make infinite mana with moxes and an animation spell.
10  Eternal Formats / Creative / [WGDX] Card discussion on: March 01, 2010, 11:27:29 am

Hi all,

The very hateful metagame we have now has forced Dragon players to find new ways for the Worldgorger combo. The classical way to do that is to find a narrow window to combo off when the chances of being disrupted, countered or hated is very weak. With Fish and control decks, Dragon must now face a lot of stuff to combo off : split second effects, instant spells, hateful permanents with activated ability, or hateful permanents with static abilities.

To face these threats, Dragon used to pack in protection like Force/Duress, Abeyance, Pernicious Deed, Engineer's Explosives, Xantid Swarm, and so on.

What are your other means to fight against the threats, to find a way for the combo ?

I find a creature which should help, though I didn't test it. it's Kederekt Leviathan with a reanimation spell. What do you think of this ?

Kederekt Leviathan
Creature - Leviathan
When Kederekt Leviathan enters the battlefield, return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands.
Unearth  {6} {U}(: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step or if it would leave the battlefield. Unearth only as a sorcery.)
5/5
11  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: January 21, 2010, 05:42:50 am

Hi,

good post fury. let me add on a few points.

yard hate
i was not only speaking of activated abilities and instant speed effects here. you must also consider the replacement effect from leyline or the triggered abillity from planar void. these both shut down our combo and our ability to use DA to draw into a solution.

Of course. That's why any Dragon build packs some bounces (at least 4 Chain of Vapor) to manage triggers and static abilities. Planar Void is not really played, and even with it on the table, we can win. Leyline is a real problem, and we have to find a way to bounce it, destroy it or find an alternate strategy (Tinker-Robot, some aggro strategy like Tombstalker, for instance)

Quote
speed
it is a tempo sacrifice to cut 9 mana accelerants post board, but there are still a couple of available second turn wins beyond that point, and frequent 3-4 turn wins with a duress back up or a double animate.
 is that really subpar to a teir 1 deck post board? what does tps or ant do there? hold a force instead of animate #2?

Duress+2 animate spells are often enouhg against a classic control opponent. But against Fish archetypes, we have to take other threats into considerations : Stifle, Qasali, Meddling, and so on. That's why keeping only disruption and forcing the combo is not the right way against very-hateful builds.


Quote
control measures
 has anyone actually tested the control options that entomb presents? with 4 entomb and 4 tutors the power of a single ancient grudge or ray of revelation is quite accessable.
this is pretty, leyline/crypt/relic, proof.
in addition to disruption and post board bounce you gain a nice protection wall.
also consider this. a player will duress your force or chain. who calls entomb?

This strategy according to me, is costly in terms of cards. Destroying one opponent's permanent costs 2 cards and 2 manas (BG, entomb+AG or RofR). A bounce would be better here. And of Leyline is not played, I would rather use Abeyance, which prevents from any instant card or Tormod's/Relic's ability.


Quote
i would like to devise a gauntlet of decks and run both of these builds through it and note the differences. determine which cards or the lack there of, caused the wins or the losses.
it would make for an interesting study.

It's a good idea. Don't fear to post yours results here !
12  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: January 19, 2010, 11:37:14 am

Hi,

abeyance sounds like a good call to me. there has been times when i wanted an orims chant but i never quite thought about abeyance.

I have heavily tested both Orim's chant and Abeyance, and I now consider that Abeyance is superior, because it stops activated abilities (which are a large part of the hate effects against Dragon) and the draw (self-replacement). Even if its more mana expensive ...

Quote
i was more curious about the sen triplets in the board. what matches does this see play in?

Actually, I don't think it's a definitive choice, and I still don't know if I would include it in a tournament. But I have noticed that against random control archetype, this creature fears the opponent. Indeed, once it is Tinkered or reanimated, its effect is viewed as very dangerous for the opponent's hand. So they often try to spend resources to destroy Sen, leaving a way for the WGD combo. If Sen stays on the table, it is generally speaking the end of the game.

The drawback is that it is difficult to cast it alone, without a reanimation spell or a tinker. So it could be a little overkill, and we should consider more classic strategies, like Inkwell Leviathan, Darksteel Colossus and so on.

Did anyone has tested Sen in WGD builds ?

Quote
you stated you did not beleive the speed versions of WGD could yield results. This is a fair statement. have you ever ran an ANT build?  the ritual dragon lists play something like this game 1. your trying to increase your odds of drawing into a turn 1 kill. this requires minimizing mana consuming draw spells, spells with only one function, and protection that is usually needed beyound turn2.
however, this is were the beauty lies, post board the deck gains strength. i play 3 pithing needle, 2 chain of vapor, and 1 echoing truth that come in mandatory evey match. on top of 4 maindeck thoghtseize and 4 tutors, the deck stands a legitimate chance at controling all neccessary threats. not to mention the 4 leyline, hurkylls recall ,and tormods crypt i run for hate. i also have the option of wishing for a counter mid combo. that's a fair amount of control for a deck that has the ability to get a turn 1-2 win even post board on a lucky draw.
post board rituals near always come out. speed is not the goal in those games ritual dragon is only built for speed in game 1.


I agree that the first game should be good for full speed versions of Dragon. It can be a real surprise for the opponent, and few players packs a lot of hate in their main deck. The problem is to resist against the hate and the very high possibilities of opponents' sideboard. I understand that you made the effort to counter the hate after the first game, but you did it at a high speed price. And sideboarding with a speed version is a poorer strategy than keeping a strong drawing version of Dragon, like WGDX, which makes less one turn kills, but assure the turn 3-4 with backup throughout the hate.

Quote
i beleive the most underestimated factor is the decks tendancy to win off a lone land.

I totally agree, that's why dicemanx and his friends designed WGDX, replacing cards that are dependent to bazaar by more drawing/digging/discarding stuff. The core of the deck is 4 Intuition, 3 Read The Runes, and 3-4 Deep Analysis.It can run without bazaar, and is more powerful with it.

Quote
anyways, i like your list, do you ever find yourself wishing that one of those chain of vapors was an echoing truth?

It was in a metagame where Empty the Warrens was heavily played. But we can replace Echoing truth by Chain of Vapor or Repeal without problems.

Quote
i was also wodering about mystical tutor not making the cut? i know you draw a lot of cards, but post board i figured you would need to see some tutor power with the grave hate knocking out the better part of intuition/DA's draw ability.
has this not been a problem?

if the opponent uses its graveyard hate to stop Deep analysis, he opens a way for the combo. So generally speaking, the opponent will wait until a Dragon is in the graveyard to remove the grave as soon as a reanimation spell is played.

We could consider, indeed, more tutor cards. But I would consider Imperial Seal before mystical tutor. A tutor is useful to find a combo card, not a drawing card.

13  Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: 2010 Worldgorger Dragon on: January 18, 2010, 01:57:53 pm

Hi all,

Since 3 years I play Dragon, I don't think a full speed combo version of the WGD combo is efficient. The field is so diversified that Dragon needs actually flexibility against any archetype. So I wonder how a Dark Ritual, Entomb, Buried Alive version could resist most of the archetypes of the metagame. I think the best approach is a WGDX version, with a proper splash to handle the main threats.

Today what are the main issues ? Gravehate is still present because of the resistance of Ichorid as a potential top8 deck. The controlling stuff is also very used in a lot of builds. And the metagame has slowed down, with a more aggro/aggro hate dimension.

So the issues of any WGD build should be, according to me, the following : handle instant spells and effects, and static permanents effects

Some solutions :

 
  • Disrupting the opponent is not enough, as a single permanent can stop the combo (Leyline, Qasali, Tormod's Crypt, and so on)
  • Only countering stuff cannot handle the hate which is already present on the board. Moreover, controlling stuff takes slots in the build at the expense of combo pieces
  • Former versions of Dragon used both of the protection, disruption and countering spells to pass the combo. This was useful to stop instant spells or annoying permanents, but more rarely hate effects (like Qasali, once it is on the table). But I wonder if we couldn't add another way to handle this by incluing a card which has been not often used in WGD build : Abeyance. I have tested it, and it seems to safe the combo, at the expense of more mana and tempo.

So the list could be something like this :

1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        4  Underground Sea
        1  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        1  Eternal Witness
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        3  Deep Analysis
        1  Time Walk
        4  Duress

SB:  1  Tropical Island
SB:  3 Engineer's Explosives
SB:  4  Chain of Vapor
SB:  1 Tinker
SB:  1 Triplet Sen
SB:  4  Abeyance
SB : free slot



14  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Minus 6 on: October 17, 2009, 08:03:25 am

2 Dragon builds in top8 ? Congratulations for your performance !

Quote
Just boarding in the two lands vs. mana denial decks that board in Leyline has not worked out for me. If they manage to start with Leyline on turn 0, you're forced to try and find and protect Echoing Truth before they put any pressure on you.  This ends poorly.

I doubt that decks with Leyline and mana denial are quite strong against the metagame, excepting maybe some Fish builds. if they want to hate Dragon, they must mulligan, or keep a bad hand, to have Leyline in hand. This gives a tempo advantage to Dragon with some alternate strategy (casting Oona, or finding a bounce to start the combo). Moreover, Dragon usually packs in fetches with basic lands to fight denial decks.

So I think we should not fear hate. Being hated means that the opponent has used cards to hate, and not to win. This gives us a tempo advantage to draw a lot of cards, find bounces (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Repeal)  and overwhelm them.

In the DAttorney's build, I think we lack in bounces. The two strategies (keyvault + WGD combo) are efficient, but in a hateful metagame, I think one bounce is not enough. I usually use at least 4 (a combination of Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth and Repeal).
15  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Minus 6 on: October 05, 2009, 03:12:52 pm
to be fair chris got unlucky against me, but the whole concept of xmuting into tezz is probably for the best.  People board in anti dragon cards and then get faceraped by key/vault.

I always thought dragon had a horrible game against stax, expecially going 2nd.  Spheres do a lot of damage due to the fact that the dragon player typically has to drop bazaar turn 1, and unless they get lucky with land ->lotus animate, it's probably not going to be a good game for them.

Actually, Dragon does very well against Stacks. But of course, it has to be correctly played against a prison archetype. The goal is not to bazaar blindly, but to set up a lot of mana and pass Intuition before Stacks locks the game. 3 manas for Dragon is enough to play against stacks, before spheres reach the ground.
16  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: [Deck Discussion] Minus 6 on: October 04, 2009, 02:37:32 am

It's a great idea of build. I already have tested a Key/Vault sideboard with WGDX, with some good results, but I never went to a Tezz sideboard. The Tezz and Dragon builds are indeed very complementary.

But I wonder if the maindeck list is not too diluted, with only 3 Worldgorger and 2 Intuition. Do you have tested the same sideboard with the diceman's WGDX build ? I guess it will be more dense and efficient in the combo dimension, and with WGDX, we accentuate the difference between the main list and the sideboard (pure combo in maindeck, control in sideboard, with some possibilities to graduate between the two).

A great idea, though ! Do you have a tournament report of your performance ? Thanks.

Greetings,
17  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article] Interview with Hiromichi Itou, the 2009 Vintage Champion! on: September 07, 2009, 08:53:00 am

Thank you Nico for having freed the article to everyone.
18  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / [Worldgorger Dragon] A return to the past ? on: June 19, 2009, 11:24:30 am
Hello,

Given the new B&R List, I ask the community if the Dragon archetype will change a lot, because of the evolution of the metagame, and because of the new unrestrictions of Entomb, Crop Rotation and Enlightened Tutor.

These unrestrictions seems to give power to the archetype, in UB version or in 5C version, with the possibility to win very quickly, to fetch bazaar or a reanimation spell very easily.

What do you think of this ? Discuss.
19  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article]The Most Dominant Engine in Vintage History: The March/April on: May 14, 2009, 05:36:29 am

Thank you, kLu, for having illustrated our arguments with some figures including the breakdown. It is obvious that the metagame has integrated the Drain deck "dominance", has begun to adapt to the fact that it is massively played in tournaments.

So we lost time to argue on the subject Smile
20  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article]The Most Dominant Engine in Vintage History: The March/April on: May 13, 2009, 06:10:47 am
.. what if int the Tezz lists you change things like this:
 time vault --> 1 grindstone
vault key -->1 painter's servant

won't you have a same two pieces combo killing the opponent in the same turn if ou can activate it or in the next turn? and you can use transmutate artifact, tinker, and all the other tutors to use it (tezz too)...

so is it really timevault/key the problem quentin?

CARONDIMONIO

The main difference is the cost of the combo :

Painter/grindstone => 6 manas
Vault/Key => 4 manas

Quote
Actually, it's not Vault/Key, it's Mana Drain that is the common denominator.
For recent results, just look at the Top8 of the Bazaar tournament (or any other tournaments in the last months for that matter). Mana Drain is THE card.

It is an assumption that needs to be justified. How Mana Drain generates an unbalanced Vintage format ? We have already said that the arguments on tournaments' results and top 8 are not strong enough, because tournaments' results are biased. It is normal to see a lot of Mana Drain decks, as everyone is playing it. Does that mean that Mana Drain is unbalancing the Vintage metagame ? I'm not sure of it. Let us let the metagame adapt itself to these, before changing the B&R List. We, french players, don't say anything else.
21  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article]The Most Dominant Engine in Vintage History: The March/April on: May 12, 2009, 01:56:41 pm

Hi all,

I strongly agree with Neonico's analysis. Before crying after the DCI to react and adapt the B&R list, are you sure you has analysed all the possibilities to beat a dominating archetype ? In Europe, Tezz archetypes are not dominating, because people know what to play against it, and anticipate the possible answers to some archetypes. I suggest to innovate and to think deeply instead of following the main stream and the "fashion" deck of the moment. Creativity should be more important,and the modification of the B&R list too often is not a good thing according to me.
22  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: May 04, 2009, 12:15:05 pm
@Dicemanx :

Good news that you take time to think about the Worldgorger archetype !

I agree with you concerning the removal of the power level errata of Transmute artifact. This would give us more possibilities with the following cards : Sundering Titan, Magister Sphinx, Sharuum+Triskelion, and any interesting artifact with a "comes into play" or "leaves play" ability. Another card which power level errata should be removed, and would be useful for the WGD archetype, is Abeyance. This card would be a stronger protection for the combo.

Concerning the aggro solution, this choice considers that the control machup is very difficult for Dragon. Especially against Remora and Tezz decks, the aggro solution allows to have a good beatdown power by making enough pressure on these types of builds, and facilitates the WGD combo if the beatdown power is countered.

But I agree that Tombstaker is quite expensive. I would prefer the new Alara card Lorescale Coatl. I have slightly tested it, it is amazing. Its casting cost of  {1} {G} {U} seems to be quite expensive, but with the draw engine of the Worldgorger archetype, it can be very powerful in a few turns. Imagine that you have Bazaar of Bagdad and Deep Analysis, Coatl becomes 7/7 the turn after he comes into play. I test it with the WGD combo, it makes a lot of pressure against any archetype, and is not dependent on the graveyard like Tarmogoyf. Of course, we must splash for green mana, and build the sideboard with this constraint.

So another sideboard solution, instead of Tombstaker could be :

4 Lorescale Coatl
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tinker
1 Robot (Inkwell, Darksteel ?)
2 Thoughtseize (the metagame shows a lot of control builds)
3 Carpet of Flowers or 3 Engineer Explosives

23  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: April 25, 2009, 11:43:26 am

Hi all,

Congratulations Chiz for your performance !

I have tested the KeyVault combo, it is very efficient, provided the metagame is not too artefact hateful. The idea of a double strategy with 2 WGD and the KeyVault Combo is quite surprising for the opponent. Generally speaking, he does hesitate to side in gravehate, because of the KeyVault combo. So he must face two types of different threats. Restoring the full WGD combo can be also surprising for him, while he tries to face both combos. Moreover, the presence of the WGD and KeyVault combos forces him to weak his own game plan.

Despite of theses  arguments, I would rather choose an aggro sideboard plan, instead of the KeyVault solution, because this is enough expected by most players in the current metagame. The proposition of SephorusFR sounds good to me (3 Tarmogoyf and 3 Tombstalker)

What do you think about the new card Wisescale Serpent ? Would you include it in an aggro strategy ? I didn't test it, but as we draw a lot in the WGD archetype, the serpent will be quickly powerful. Unfortunately, he doesn't have an evasion ability.

And what about Lich Lord of Unx as a new cheaper kill ?
24  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: April 17, 2009, 03:44:20 am
OK, so this is the version I currently test and will fire-proof this week-end :

http://talkmtg.com/Deck.aspx?DeckID=130

I tried to mix the oath transformationnal SB and some bounces


Hi french man Wink

The list seems to be well built ! What are your sideboard tables against the field, and especially the matchup against control ? No more Mulldrifter ?

Concerning the previous discussion, I'm not convinced by Archon against Ichorid. When Archon reaches the table, Ichorid has already start to dredge, and can use ways to bounce Archon (manaichorid) or can reanimate Angel of Despair. I would better try to race Ichorid by passing its disrupt and graveyard hate, with bounces and the quick WGD combo.
25  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: April 07, 2009, 10:22:39 am
So I would propose the following sideboard I'm testing :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Volta´c Key
1 Time Vault
3 free slots

What about playing -1 key + 1 tinker and add a robot int he free slot (either Leviathan if the meta is tezz oriented or Sundering titan) ?
Not sure *4* key is required maybe 3 is enough as we will certainly keep bazaar to dig up the combo piece while faking playing the dragon combo.

Also, no love for Tombstalker ?

For sure ! Tombstalker is great... I tested the solution with only 3 Keys, it works and can still be tutored with intuition. So the sideboard could be :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Volta´c Key
1 Time Vault
3 Tombstalker / or 3 Gigadrowse to resist against control

26  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: April 05, 2009, 09:59:45 am
Hi all,

I'm testing a Key-Vault sideboard approach for the WGD archetype. I have studied the possibility because it seems to be more efficient than the Masknought sideboard solution. Indeed, instead of having a big 12/12 trample for 3 manas and 2 cards, we have an infinite turns combo for 4 manas (3 if Voltaic Key is cast before the combo turn, which is most of the time the case).

So I would propose the following sideboard I'm testing :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Volta´c Key
1 Time Vault
3 free slots

Transmute Artifact is useful to fetch Time Vault, or one Key if Vault is already in hand or on the table. Once we do infinite turns, we kill with Oona or Mulldrifter.

Of course, this option should not be played if the field is plenty of Null Rod (unless we use bounces to vanish them off)

What do you think about it ? What would be the 3 free slots of this approach ?
27  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: March 09, 2009, 04:50:38 pm

SephorusFR, a french Vintage player, has made a top4 in a french tournament of 17 players with the dicemanx' list :

The main list is the same.

The sideboard :
3 Energy Flux
3 Carpet of Flower
3 Tombstalker
3 Illusionary mask
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Breakdown :

2 Shop aggro,
1 TPS
2 Painter UGR
1 Tezz Control
1 Dragon
1 Fish WU
1 Ichorid
1 Painter BR
1 Zoo
1 UB Mask
1 Grim
4 randoms

The report can be found here (in french, sorry).
28  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: March 08, 2009, 03:15:55 am
I'm pretty sure your opponent needs a creature for Sheltering Ancient to work.

Here is the ruling from Crystal Keep:
If no opponent controls a creature, you can't pay the upkeep. [Coldsnap FAQ 2006/06/14]

So you'll still have to go with goyfs or tombstalkers Wink

You're right Smile

So I would switch back to Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers, unless you fond a single creature with a low cost an a high beatdown power.
29  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: New Worldgorger Dragon Combo -- Still Viable? on: March 07, 2009, 04:57:18 am

In the current metagame, I would consider the Masknought sideboard a middle choice. In Europe, because of the powerful Vault-Key combo and Tezz, most of lists now use Null Rod and artifact destruction main deck. The Masknought solution was very efficient when Ichorid was heavily played, but now, i doubt of his place in the current environment.

The transformational SB is largely unnecessary against decks that run Null Rod; instead, I would just bring in Carpet of Flowers against the U based Fish decks that run Null Rod. If the Fish decks were too troublesome, I'd go back to the Oath SB plan.


I'm not sure of that. In a metagame with hate and artifact destruction, both strategies (WGD and Masknought) are difficult to lead to victory. The solution is indeed to go with the Oath plan, but I would consider another way of thinking.

I'm testing a non-transformal UBg list with bounces, EE, Pernicious Deed and Carpet of Flowers. And I wonder if a single card like Sheltering Ancient would find its place in a non-graveyard-dependent strategy in a WGD build. It is cheaper than Tombstalker, don't need any card in the graveyard, has an evasion ability, and has a better beatdown power than Tarmogoyf for the same cost early in the game. The drawback of the card is only annoying against aggro, which is not a problem for Dragon (as if the opponent cast creatures, the graveyard hate will be lower, and that will open space for the WGD combo.

I'm thinking about a global WGD strategy with this sideboard :

3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sheltering Ancient
1 Stroke of Genius

Against control :

+3 Carpet of Flowers
+4 Sheltering Ancient
-3 reanim
-2 WGD
-1 Mulldrifter
-1 Read the Runes

Against aggro-control :

-4 duress
+3 Pernicious deed
+1 Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth

Against combo : we'll win faster than them Smile

30  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - Restrict Mana Drain? the Jan/Feb Report on: February 19, 2009, 08:16:39 am
I think we're conceding that this argument might be true, but not enough time has elapsed to identify whether the Tezzeret deck is "truly dominant". The European results seem to indicate that Tezzeret is not as dominant as the US meta would seem to suggest - either the European players are making a huge mistake in deck selection by not choosing the best deck, or the US players are overestimating the deck strength but they are reluctant to switch to another deck because of their successes thus far.

I want to add about this. In Europe, Tezz is not dominating, because people play archetypes which have a good match-up against Tezz and Drain decks (Ichorid, hateful aggro archetypes). As we can see the US metagame from Europe, we notice that in America, a lot of people play a deck because of its performance at  former tournaments. And that would explain the fact that a lot of Tezz/drain decks are found is the top8 of US tournaments. To quantify the phenomenon, let's divide the number of Tezz/Drain decks by the total number of decks that are played in a breakdown tournament. It should be normal to see a near proportion of it in any top 8, if Tezz is very played.

But this doesn't imply that the Tezz archetype is truly dominating the Vintage format. Ans thus, I don't really understand assumptions about the B&R list only on this type of arguments. According to me, the current B&R list is good.
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