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1  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Golden Lotus on: June 03, 2009, 09:20:12 am
You do understand that a lotus is a type of plant.  Plants are grown from the ground.  The ground is a specific area on a plot of land.  I don't understand how you're not seeing the obvious, and logical, association between lotus + land.

Of course I understand that a lotus is a plant.  That was actually the entire point of my post.  I don't understand how you're making the connection that a flower = land.

@ Diakonov
No, it doesn't.  It's not fair to call a flower a land no matter how big it is.

To be fair, though, this happened with Boseiju, too.  It's a tree that's a land. Doesn't make sense, but whatever.  I won't complain, but I will argue about it.

I think the card is trash, but I look forward to trading it to casuals.  It's their wet dream!

I was just about to post that.  Boesiju is a tree, a thing under Harlequin's definition, but it was classified as a land.  Although, I suppose you could also argue that the tree in question is so epic and monumental, that it's a place.  Like, "meet me at the oak tree".  Or, "meet me at the golden lotus".  
2  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Golden Lotus on: June 03, 2009, 08:59:56 am
Golden Lotus is not an appropriate name for a land card because it's a lotus.

You do understand that a lotus is a type of plant.  Plants are grown from the ground.  The ground is a specific area on a plot of land.  I don't understand how you're not seeing the obvious, and logical, association between lotus + land.
3  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Golden Lotus on: June 03, 2009, 08:23:46 am
The word "Lotus" has appeared on a Land card before.  Lotus Vale, a Land card, was released in Weatherlight.  Why are so many people (not necessarily in this thread, but all over the internet forums) making a big deal that the word "Lotus" is on a Land card?
4  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: B&R, 20. March 2K9 on: March 20, 2009, 08:53:32 am
Why are you guys getting so upset?  GP: Chicago was just a couple weeks ago and it had the largest GP attendance ever.  Of course Wizards is going to give Legacy some attention in it's articles.  Stop this "woe is me" nonsense and use your heads.  Seriously.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Where Does Everyone Play? on: February 26, 2009, 12:05:31 pm
Southeastern Wisconsin:

Board Game Barrister
5738 North Bayshore Drive (located in the Bayshore Town Center)
Glendale, WI 53217

The owner, Gordon, is very friendly and accomodating.  Not too many Legacy players, but we get a sprinkling of Legacy and/or Vintage every Friday nights at 6pm.  As always, Standard/Draft is the main draw, but people are there with Legacy decks ready to play.
6  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [Single Card Discussion] Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker on: January 14, 2009, 12:27:16 pm
Loyalty = 5
7  Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: [Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0 on: October 22, 2008, 09:48:17 am
So has Hellkite Oath obsoleted Tyrant Oath?  If so, I don't understand why.  I don't see any Tyrant Oath decks placing, and the Oath decks I do see in results is Hellkite Oath.  Why is this?
8  Archives / Tournament Announcement Forum / Re: THE MEANDECK OPEN - October 19, 2008 $$$ Columbus, Ohio on: October 15, 2008, 10:53:52 am
Coincidentally, I'll be in Columbus, OH for a HUGE fighting video game tournament.  I'll be sure to stop by on Sunday and check it out.  Is this an actual Magic store that sells singles or just a general hobby shop that is allowing for us to use space?
9  Vintage Community Discussion / Community Introductions / Re: Lists of Stores and People by State/Province on: October 14, 2008, 04:30:21 pm
Hobby Town
Milwaukee, WI area
Intersection Moorland Ave & National Ave

Tons of people show up Monday nights. Lots of Type 1 & draft. Some Legacy, 5-Color and casual.

Do people still show up Mondays for Legacy/Vintage?
10  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: February 23, 2008, 12:50:26 pm
The best way to beat Oath IMO is simply to win before they do. I think my Grim Long list on the Superlong discussion form accomplishes this. It runs 3 MD Xantid swarm (1 more in the SB) and 3 MD Duress. You clear the way with one of those two cards on turn 1 and then go off in their face on turn 2 (ideally, of course). It doesn't hurt that my list also runs 3 Forbidden Orchard (might have to make it 4 soon). You can keep your opponent from oathing that way. It's kinda handy. Grim Long as an answer to Oath is not an argument I've been hearing and I think it should be discussed more at length. Thoughts?

I think that we actually went over this last page; pure combo > Oath.  Grim Long is no different.  If combo can either (a.) combo out before we have an active Oath out, or (b.) can disrupt us long enough to setup the combo, then combo out, then yes, Oath will lose.  However, the same can said about other combo vs. _____ matchups too. 

11  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Hidden treasures for Vintage (deck ideas, good cards, combos)? on: February 22, 2008, 09:58:07 am
I would like to see Future Sight (the card) be used.  Unfortunately, due to it's prohibitive casting cost and blue mana requirements, I fear this powerful card will never see proper play.  I'm aware that it saw play back in the days of Keeper and Rector decks, but I was never satisfied with that.  Meh.
12  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: February 21, 2008, 06:17:58 pm
Brain Freeze Pros:
- Ensures that you always Oath into a Djinn

Can someone explain this comment? I'm missing something. 

Also, someone was contrasting Rich's controlling build and ICBM's "more tempo based" build.  Can somone point me to ICBM's tyrant oath list? (I'm not too familiar with the team roster's.)

Thanks for answering noob qs.

- Galen

He means that by playing just 2x Tidespout Tyrant + 1x Brain Freeze, you will always flip a Tyrant with an Oath activation.  By playing 2x Tidespout Tyrant + 1x Trisk, you run the risk of Oathing into a Trisk when you want a Tyrant. 
13  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: January 25, 2008, 04:08:15 pm
This is what you intially posted about Thief:

Re: Grimoire Thief: I wouldn't play this guy. It just seems like it will take too long to get him active and relevant. You have other cards that are full of hate just waiting to smite the other deck, and you also can't really afford to sacrifice the tempo lost by playing a creature that has no relevant turn 1 abilities (you get away with Jotun Grunt because he is a total beatstick and also has relevant abilities soon enough to matter).

By this logic, I was simply pointing out that Confidant, Bouncer, Grunt, Kataki would be equally useless as they do not have, as you put it, "turn 1 abilities".  Nowhere did you ever state anything about "board presense".

Also, re: your above statement about board presense, Grimoire Thief has loads of it.  Again, he instantly forces your opponent to rethink Brainstorm/Ponder (which is played in many decks).  This is relevant, imo.

Also, it's not just milling your opponent (which he can get back later via Will, etc), it's RFG.  Forever.  And not just RFG, but with the very real possibility of you countering a relevant spell later on in a crucial moment (FoW, StP, etc).  And your argument about why Thief isn't good because it's "bad against creatures" doesn't make any sense.  Using that logic, Meddling Mage (2/2), Kataki (2/1), and Confidant (2/1) shouldn't be played either.

Your logic, to me, seems inconsistent about why regular Fish creatures are "good", but Thief is "bad".  Thief shares a common weakness with the other Fish creatures of being a 2/* creature for 2 mana, but shares a common strength with the other FIsh creatures of having an insane disrupting ability.
14  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: January 25, 2008, 03:00:34 pm
*dbl post* sorry.
15  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: January 25, 2008, 02:11:25 pm
I agree, but the possibility of acting as Stifle 5-8 cannot be overlooked by your opponent; if he plays 2x ToA, chances are he'll spend resources bounce/kill Grimoire Thief before going off just in case.

And yes, the primary disruption comes from RFG ability, not Stifle 5-8.  I agree.  The fact that the RFG ability is (1.) free, and (2.) forces your opponent to rethink his once-automatic "Brainstorm in response" is something that I feel fits into Fish's "utility creatures, look what I can do to mess the opponent over while still swinging for 2 pts."

And RFG your opponent FoW, then usnig Thief to counter your opponent's 2nd FoW is pretty nice.  I like Grimoire Thief, definitely disrupts your opponent and can save you in a pinch.

Also, hauntedechoes hit the nail on the head; Grimoire Thief plays massive mind-games with your opponent.  You either RFG his bombs, or his bomb-finders.  Either way, it can sometimes alter the course of a game if you snag his crucial kill card, or his equally crucial tutor/draw/engine spell... 

I don't think writing off Grimoire Thief can be done so soon without proper testing. 

EDIT: To address the previously mentioned, "Thief isn't good enough because we need creatures to be actively hating the moment they resolve (with the exception of Grunt as Duressed claims)" is just flast out wrong.  Waterfront Bouncer does nothing for you the moment he resolves, nor does Dark Confidant the moment he resolves, nor does Grunt actually.  Grimoire Thief actually does do something the moment he resolves; he forces your opponent to instantly rethink how/when to stack the top of his deck.  Aside from Kataki & Mage, you have to wait until your next turn before your creatures start "doing something" for you.  Thief falls more in line with Kataki and Mage, imo, as he instantly alters your opponent cantrips and library stacks.
16  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: January 25, 2008, 12:16:49 pm
@Grimoire Thief:. This guy seems to be random, he needs 2-4 attacks to become effective (my impression). If you want some backbreaking creature against combo-decks, play Rootwater Thief. He is effective for sure, takes what you like and you don't have to sac him. Yes, activation costs 2 mana, i know. But having U open each turn also nerves.His countering doesn't stop storm, so it does NOT replace Stifle. I would not play him. Don't try to construct scenarios where he is very good since normally you for example duressed the opponent long before you drop the Thief
. Fish needs to drop something what should immediately affect the game. Or even play Voidmage Prodigy over the new Thief.

Unless I'm misreading the oracle text for Grimoire Thief, his countering ability DOES stop lethal Storm.  "Counter all spells with those names."  If Grimoire Thief has a Tendrils of Agony RFG, and your opponent has 14 copies of Tendrils of Agony on the stack, how does Thief not counter all spells named Tendrils of Agony???  Oh wait, it does.  This is why Grimoire Thief = Stifle 5-8 potentially.

And I disagree wholly with your statement of Grimoire Thief not making an impact until 4 turns later; the moment he resolves his presense is felt.  No longer can your opponent Brainstorm in response to your Thoughtseize and smirk; by threatening Thief, your opponent faces difficult decisions re: the top of their deck.  Brainstorm, Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.

Grimoire Thief has minimal mana requirements in order for him to be effective.  Grimoire Thief can just swing for 2 like normal and disrupt your Ponder loving opponent.  Or, for U (just like Stifle), he can potentially stop a 14 Storm lethal stack.  Rootwater Thief requires a minimum for 2 mana per turn in order to be effective, 3 if he's planning on flying over Goyfs.  That is a HUGE investment, one that will cost you game-breaking tempo.  Great, so you spend 3 per turn on Rootwater Thief, but you're not laying other creatures, and if you do, then Rootwater Thief is swinging for 1 pt?  No thanks, I'll take my 2/2 for 2, that can disrupt for FREE, and can potentially counter a problematic card for U.

17  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: January 24, 2008, 09:32:46 am
I've been looking at Grimoire Thief alot lately; she looks saucy.  Thief forces your opponent to rethink how he stacks the top of his library (via Brainstorm, Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc).  This is powerful.  It also has good synergy w/ Thoughtseize as your opponent can no longer just smirk and Brainstorm in response when you have an active Thief out; Thief forces tough decisions.

She's a 2/2 beater for 2.  Fits into Fish's mana curve.

The activated ability looks semi-interesting, as it can serve as Stifle 5-8 IF you were able to steal your opponent's Storm-kill card.  This is not realistc, however, as most Storm decks play 1, maybe 2, copies total of their kill card.  The chances of you stealing 1 of their 2 cards is slim. 

I don't know, might be a danger of cool things card, but she looks interesting; SB material perhaps?
18  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: December 17, 2007, 09:37:33 am
Sorta what I figured about Avenger and Jitte; I just thought with more decks like R/G Beats popping up, and everyone and there mothers using Goyf (which a Jitted Avenger owns handidly), this could be a viable route to go.  But to expound on MoR ~ Waterfront Bouncer (my original point).  You claim that every creature should be as independant as possible and that MoR is only effective if there's another creature out in play.... isn't that true of Waterfront Bouncer too?  In order for his ability to shine, there needs to be another creature out in play (preferably your opponent's Dryad/Goyf/Tog/etc).  I don't understand how Waterfront Bouncer = good, but MoR (which is accomplishing about the same thing as Bouncer) = bad.  Please explain.  The only differences I see is that Bouncer is pitchable to FoW and MoR's ability isn't dependant on your hand.  Both creatures force your attackers through for that last bit of damage, both creatures can help you defensively when opponent declares attack, both creatures can evade/make others evasive, both creatures can swing for 1, both creatures can die to -1/-1 effects.

19  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: December 16, 2007, 12:42:28 pm
Would a more aggressive approach work w/ UWB Fish in Vintage?  Legacy builds and Vintage build are very similar, except most Legacy builds run Serra Avengers, Umezawa Jittes, and Mother of Runes.  Now, those three cards work wonders in an aggro / aggro-control format like Legacy, and while Vintage does not see nearly the number of creatures, with the advent of R/G Beats and other decks using Goyf' + Tog + Dryad + random creatures (like Fish coincidentally), would this be a consideration?

For reference, this is my Legacy build:

17 creature spells
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes

26 non-creature spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
3 Umezawa Jitte

17 land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Now, obviously this would have to be tweaked for the Vintage game, but the three main difference are Jitte, Avenger, and MoR.  Combined, they wreck house.  A Jitted Avenger, protected by MoR is often times game over.  In my mind, MoR serves a similar role as Waterfront Bouncer, except you don't need to pitch anything in order for her to be effective.  She can push your Grunt/Avenger through for that last bit of damage, or can assist in protected chump-blocking.  Between Fetches, FoWs, Confidant, and Thoughtseize, this deck loses tons of life.  Jitte can offset that.  I don't know, but couldn't Kataki and Stifle and other hate specific cards be moved to SB in order to have a faster, more aggresive build?  If not Avenger (4th turn might be too slow for Vintage), then at least Jitte?  Avenger and Grunt can end things quickly, but MoR and Jitte make them near invincible, while also helping you defensively for a couple turns (MoR protection and Jitte lifegain/creature kill).
20  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] The Super Long Primer, part 1 on: December 12, 2007, 04:23:27 pm
That's been sort of a nice bonus of the Gush metagame. many decks in the format are only running 6-7 pieces of power.

The Grim Tutors really put a hurt on the wallet too.  How do you feel with just one Merchant Scroll?  Ever draw it, wanting it to be something else?  Or have you ever wanted to run 2x?
21  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] The Super Long Primer, part 1 on: December 12, 2007, 12:22:08 pm
Interesting read.  I'm quite unfamiliar with Long decks, so this was quite informative.  I really like the fact I get to play with Bargain and Necro; so many decks I've seen do not/can not play with these cards.  The fact that kobefan's build is relatively cheap to build (if 10-proxy is allowed in your local area) is a plus.
22  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Suspend and Teferi... on: November 30, 2007, 04:03:39 pm
So... I can Stifle my opponent's Ancestral Vision at the correct moment, and he gets nothing?
23  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Suspend and Teferi... on: November 30, 2007, 02:59:17 pm
Can you alternately Stifle a Suspend card?  I'm still unclear.  If I wanted to Stifle the 2nd triggered part of a Suspended card, then it would remain in the RFG zone forever, doing nothing.  That's what I want to happen.  But can Stifle even target an ability that's in the RFG zone?
24  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: November 29, 2007, 04:54:22 pm
I understand that removal exists in Vintage, but since Confidant is essentially the backbone and core "draw" spell, most situations, you'll protect him with your disruption/countermagic.  He should live.  And if your opponent spends 2-3 removal spells trying to kill Confidant, then you might want to let him, as that's 2-3 less spells for your actual beaters (Grunt).  Like I said, barring a 1 turn barrage of removal spells, you should always have an active Confidant out.
25  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: November 29, 2007, 11:10:59 am
Because in most Fish decks, Confidant is the backbone.  He typically is the first creature you want to get on-line, and he's one of the creatures you'd actually want to protect if it really came down to it.  That's why I say that he'll almost always be around by the time you lay down your secondary creatures, like Bouncer.  How do you typically play Confidant? Mid-late game?  If so, why?  And if you let him die so easily and not protect him, what deeper strategies does that allow you?
26  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: WUb Fish: Deck Discussion on: November 29, 2007, 09:16:41 am
Having been a big fan of Fish decks (Legacy and Vintage), especially in the build that hauntedechoes posted, I can see his need for Waterfront Bouncers.  It ups the blue card count (which is already mildly low to support 4x FoW), can attack if it really needed to (every point helps in Fish), keeps threats off the board at no life gain to your opponent (which can be the deciding factor in some games), and as you mentioned, has excellent synergy with Confidant (which will almost ALWAYS be out and active when you play Bouncer).  For his particular build, I like Bouncer alot. 
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